What if Christianity had never gained influence?

[Stop_the_War]

Would we be living in a more advanced and peaceful world?

[amazona]

1. not aware that mithras was especially peaceful

Sorry, the main competitor was about the same as far as I could see. Although it's interesting how even though Jesus was born in the spring then somehow he was born on Mithras' B-day of dec. 25.

The conservation movement is a breeding ground of communists
and other subversives. We intend to clean them out,
even if it means rounding up every birdwatcher in the country.
--John Mitchell, US Attorney General 1969-72

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

17. ha ha!

I was thinking something similar, but your words were more eloquent than mine would have been!

They really don't know that much about Mithraism, as it was a secretive cult and nothing seems to have been written down about the ceremony.

It appeared to have originated in Persia, as Zoroastrianism did. They were the ones who came up with the concept of the Devil and God in continual combat. Modern day Zoroastrians (there are a few yet in Persia, but most are in Bombay India)still wear the cord with the 64 knots and practice the concept of True Thought, True Words, True Deeds (often symbolized by the three monkeys and see no evil, hear no evil, speak no evil). They hold all elements as sacred, so much so that after death their remains are placed in Towers of Silence, to be devoured by birds, rather than to pollute the earth by burial or the fire by cremation. Most Zoroastrians today are businessmen, and are known for their honesty and honor--after all, Asha (Truth) is very very important to them.

[K-W]

2. No, christianity started as a liberation religion.

Against the Roman Empire. That is the historical context of Jesus's story and that is where it initially spread as a cult, but once it was coopted by the empire it began its long history as a tool of control.

But they could have done this with any number of religions. The christian ideas themselves arent inherently destructive.

[A HERETIC I AM]

5. "Jesus loves you but if you dont love him back he'll hurt you forever"

You dont think THATS destructive?

"Love thy neighbor" and "Do unto others" arent unique or original with xtianity.

[K-W]

7. Jesus never said that, so your post makes no sense.

And no, I dont think bad ideas are destructive unless for some reason they are implemented, like if the Roman Empire latched onto them as a way to control people, and the catholic church developed out of a structure of empire.

you are right, christian texts are full of the same themes as alot of other texts, which backs up my original point, any religion can be twisted to do all kinds of things

[A HERETIC I AM]

19. You are right, Jesus himself didnt say that, but the new testament

MAKES IT CLEAR that it is indeed the case. Is it not true that those that refuse "The love of Christ" or do not "Accept Christ as their saviour" are damned to eternal torment? It IS true that this is part of the message, it can not be denied and therefore my post makes perfect sense.

If you prefer, i'll put it this way;

God loves you, but if you dont love him back you're gonna get burned forever

[burn the bush]

29. it's all that smiting that bothers me. Is GOD really that vain? Why must

we always be smoten?

[Psephos]

9. JC did not say that

Look, I haven't seen the inside of a church in decades, but that doesn't mean I support misrepresenting what JC said.

A lot of asinine things have been said and done in his name, but that's a different matter from what he actually said and did.

My $0.02 worth.

Peace.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

18. maybe some Chrisitans say that,

but not the ones I know. They stress Jesus's love for everyone, that all are welcome, and also the mystical aspects of the Seal of the Saints (as Jesus is known in Islam). The Qu'ran talks of Jesus and calls Him a great prophet, who, like Mohammed (peace and blessings be upon both of them) preached the unity of God.

[A HERETIC I AM]

Jesus Christ is a mythical figure whose life story is nearly IDENTICAL

to dozens of other Saviour god-men throughout the millenia. The story of a Saviour god that becomes human through an announced, miraculous birth, who "Impressed the elders at 12", who began teaching at 30 and was sacrificed at 33, (ALWAYS, mind you, on or about the spring equinox) who had twelve followers, etc. etc. is NOT UNIQUE TO CHRISTIANITY! It is the story of a Solar avatar whose life is little more than allegory for the movements of the stars and sun through the seasons.

For better or worse, the god of Abraham and Isaac is no more real than the gods of the Greek and Roman pantheons. If, however, it makes you a better, more charitable, caring and loving person to believe in such deities then i am, by all means, for it. My Mother is such a person. Her faith makes her a better person. For many millions if not billions of people however, all belief in the god of Abraham does is teach them new and improved ways to hate their fellow man.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

24. Islam

doesn't teach that there are savior god-men, that there is ONLY GOD.

[A HERETIC I AM]

25. And that god is the god of Abraham and Isaac, correct?

Same god as Judaism and Christianity.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

26. yes

The Qu'ran has many passages relating the stories of Noah, Moses, Abraham,other Jewish prophets, and Jesus. One of the main feast days in traditional Islam is honoring Abraham's offering to sacrifice his son-only in the Islamic tradition, it was Ishamael who was offered and not Isaac. Muslims point to the Biblical text that says Ishmael would be the father of a great nation as showing the connection, as they believe he is the father of all Arabs.

[Psephos]

35. Could you cite a few nearly identical examples from the dozens?

[A HERETIC I AM]

38. Sure.

Here's a small list of gods with all or part of their stories similar to Jesus;


The Jesus story incorporated elements from the tales of other deities recorded in this widespread area, such as many of the following world saviors and "sons of God," most or all of whom predate the Christian myth, and a number of whom were crucified or executed.33a

Adad of Assyria
Adonis, Apollo, Heracles ("Hercules") and Zeus of Greece
Alcides of Thebes
Attis of Phrygia
Baal of Phoenicia
Bali of Afghanistan
Beddru of Japan
Buddha of India
Crite of Chaldea
Deva Tat of Siam
Hesus of the Druids
Horus, Osiris, and Serapis of Egypt, whose long-haired, bearded appearance was adopted for the Christ character34
Indra of Tibet/India
Jao of Nepal
Krishna of India
Mikado of the Sintoos
Mithra of Persia
Odin of the Scandinavians
Prometheus of Caucasus/Greece
Quetzalcoatl of Mexico
Salivahana of Bermuda
Tammuz of Syria (who was, in a typical mythmaking move, later turned into the disciple Thomas35)
Thor of the Gauls
Universal Monarch of the Sibyls36
Wittoba of the Bilingonese
Xamolxis of Thrace
Zarathustra/Zoroaster of Persia
Zoar of the Bonzes


Here's some details on just 4



Horus of Egypt
The stories of Jesus and Horus are very similar, with Horus even contributing the name of Jesus Christ. Horus and his once-and-future Father, Osiris, are frequently interchangeable in the mythos ("I and my Father are one").41 The legends of Horus go back thousands of years, and he shares the following in common with Jesus:

Horus was born of the virgin Isis-Meri on December 25th in a cave/manger42, with his birth being announced by a star in the East and attended by three wise men.43
He was a child teacher in the Temple and was baptized when he was 30 years old.44
Horus was also baptized by "Anup the Baptizer," who becomes "John the Baptist."
He had 12 disciples.
He performed miracles and raised one man, El-Azar-us, from the dead.
He walked on water.
Horus was transfigured on the Mount.
He was crucified, buried in a tomb and resurrected.
He was also the "Way, the Truth, the Light, the Messiah, God's Anointed Son, the Son of Man, the Good Shepherd, the Lamb of God, the Word" etc.
He was "the Fisher," and was associated with the Lamb, Lion and Fish ("Ichthys").45
Horus's personal epithet was "Iusa," the "ever-becoming son" of "Ptah," the "Father."46
Horus was called "the KRST," or "Anointed One," long before the Christians duplicated the story.47
In fact, in the catacombs at Rome are pictures of the baby Horus being held by the virgin mother Isis - the original "Madonna and Child"48 - and the Vatican itself is built upon the papacy of Mithra49, who shares many qualities with Jesus and who existed as a deity long before the Jesus character was formalized. The Christian hierarchy is nearly identical to the Mithraic version it replaced50. Virtually all of the elements of the Catholic ritual, from miter to wafer to water to altar to doxology, are directly taken from earlier pagan mystery religions.51


Mithra, Sungod of Persia
The story of Mithra precedes the Christian fable by at least 600 years. According to Wheless, the cult of Mithra was, shortly before the Christian era, "the most popular and widely spread 'Pagan' religion of the times." Mithra has the following in common with the Christ character:

Mithra was born on December 25th.
He was considered a great traveling teacher and master.
He had 12 companions or disciples.
He performed miracles.
He was buried in a tomb.
After three days he rose again.
His resurrection was celebrated every year.
Mithra was called "the Good Shepherd."
He was considered "the Way, the Truth and the Light, the Redeemer, the Savior, the Messiah."
He was identified with both the Lion and the Lamb.
His sacred day was Sunday, "the Lord's Day," hundreds of years before the appearance of Christ.
Mithra had his principal festival on what was later to become Easter, at which time he was resurrected.
His religion had a Eucharist or "Lord's Supper."52


Krishna of India
The similarities between the Christian character and the Indian messiah are many. Indeed, Massey finds over 100 similarities between the Hindu and Christian saviors, and Graves, who includes the various noncanonical gospels in his analysis, lists over 300 likenesses. It should be noted that a common earlier English spelling of Krishna was "Christna," which reveals its relation to '"Christ." It should also be noted that, like the Jewish godman, many people have believed in a historical, carnalized Krishna.53

Krishna was born of the Virgin Devaki ("Divine One") 53a
His father was a carpenter.54
His birth was attended by angels, wise men and shepherds, and he was presented with gold, frankincense and myrrh.54a
He was persecuted by a tyrant who ordered the slaughter of thousands of infants.55
He was of royal descent.
He was baptized in the River Ganges.55a
He worked miracles and wonders.
He raised the dead and healed lepers, the deaf and the blind.
Krishna used parables to teach the people about charity and love.
"He lived poor and he loved the poor."56
He was transfigured in front of his disciples.57
In some traditions he died on a tree or was crucified between two thieves.58
He rose from the dead and ascended to heaven.
Krishna is called the "Shepherd God" and "Lord of lords," and was considered "the Redeemer, Firstborn, Sin Bearer, Liberator, Universal Word."59
He is the second person of the Trinity,60 and proclaimed himself the "Resurrection" and the "way to the Father."60a
He was considered the "Beginning, the Middle and the End," ("Alpha and Omega"), as well as being omniscient, omnipresent and omnipotent.
His disciples bestowed upon him the title "Jezeus," meaning "pure essence."61
Krishna is to return to do battle with the "Prince of Evil," who will desolate the earth.62


Prometheus of Greece
The Greek god Prometheus has been claimed to have come from Egypt, but his drama took place in the Caucasus mountains. Prometheus shares a number of striking similarities with the Christ character.

Prometheus descended from heaven as God incarnate as man, to save mankind.
He was crucified, suffered and rose from the dead.
He was called the Logos or Word.62a
Five centuries before the Christian era, esteemed Greek poet Aeschylus wrote Prometheus Bound, which, according to Taylor, was presented in the theater in Athens. Taylor claims that in the play Prometheus is crucified "on a fatal tree" and the sky goes dark:

"The darkness which closed the scene on the suffering Prometheus, was easily exhibited on the stage, by putting out the lamps; but when the tragedy was to become history, and the fiction to be turned into fact, the lamp of day could not be so easily disposed of. Nor can it be denied that the miraculous darkness which the Evangelists so solemnly declare to have attended the crucifixion of Christ, labours under precisely the same fatality of an absolute and total want of evidence."63

Tradition holds that Prometheus was crucified on a rock, yet some sources have opined that legend also held he was crucified on a tree and that Christians muddled the story and/or mutilated the text, as they did with the works of so many ancient authors. In any case, the sun hiding in darkness parallels the Christian fable of the darkness descending when Jesus was crucified. This remarkable occurrence is not recorded in history but is only explainable within the Mythos and as part of a recurring play.

Source: http://www.truthbeknown.com/origins.htm

[Psephos]

42. Thanks - very helpful

I was interested not just in general similarities, which seem to pop up in nearly all myths and pantheons, but in specific cases that closely paralleled the Christ accounts.

In particular, you've shown that the Mithra story, which I was only passingly familiar with, and the account of Horus, which I did know a bit better, fill the more exacting criteria.

Thanks for going the extra mile.

[A HERETIC I AM]

23. oops n/t

[burn the bush]

30. yes, that is the way it should be

I think any real God is about love, That's why the xtian rights portrayal of God is so very disturbing.

I certainly don't know what I believe spiritually. But I do know that if there is a god it is one of loving and joy and not of hate, loathing and smiting. And definatly not PRO WAR like the pugs seem to think lately.

[burn the bush]

28. I know what you mean

that is the message that is coming across these days. Kind of like the way we will bomb everyone to achieve peace. I think the Christ based religions would have been much more beneficial to the people if it never became bigtime organized religion.

[qazplm]

37. Do onto others

greatly precedes Christianity and Jesus by about a millenia!

[Jesus Saves]

3. You think a religion corrupts human nature?

Or is it human nature which corrupts a religion?

Do really think humanity was peaceful prior to Christianity?

[ultraist]

10. It hasn't been any more peaceful SINCE Christianity originated

[Jesus Saves]

15. Human nature

is what it is, and the religion has long been riddled with false prophets.

[K-W]

16. Actually it has.

You do realize that we have made quite a bit of progress since the time where everyone was almost constantly at war?

Im not saying christianity caused it, I think its just human progress, but just the same, the world is more peaceful since the time of the roman empire.

[LostInAnomie]

4. Some other proselytizing religion would have gained influence.

Probably Islam.

Never underestimate people's desire to push their God's(religious leader's) will. I admire religions that do not try to sell themselves and let people find their own way to them. I'm essentially an atheist but I still admire them.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

20. excuse me

but the Qu'ran doesn't talk about forcing anyone to convert. Mohammed (peace and blessings be upon him) reminded people that he was a man and not to be worshipped. The Qu'ran states that the people of the book are to be left alone and in peace, unless they refused to allow Muslims to worship. Two of Mohammed's wives were Jewish, and he never made them convert.

Sufis are NOT allowed to seek converts. In fact, many Sufi orders make it very difficult to even join them. There's a story of a Sufi Murshid (teacher) who was famous for his spirituality. A man went looking for him to ask to become a student. He was directed to go down an alley to the Murshid's house. At the beginning of the alley was an old woman.

"You want to see that man?" she cried. "He's a false teacher! He sleeps with his students! He doesn't help you along the path, he leads you astray!"

The man brushed the old woman aside and went up the alleyway to the Murshid's house. He was greeted by the Murshid and after a long conversation, was accepted as a student.

"There's one thing you need to know, Murshid," the man said. "There's this old woman down the way who is telling people terrible things about you!"

The Murshid smiled. "I know," he said. "I pay her to do this. Keeps those who would be swayed by public opinion."

[Igel]

33. At the risk of being polemical, the New Testament also

doesn't talk about forcing anyone to convert.

[Tux]

39. Nor condemning others

Who aren't Christian. That seems to be a function of fundies and Evangelicals of the past century or more. Too bad too since we could have peace together. Afterall, many Buddhists see Jesus as being Enlightened.

[Igel]

34. Since it's arguable that Islam was a response to

Byzantine Xianity, it's unlikely Islam as such would have seen the light of day had Xianity remained a small sect with scattered adherents.

I buy the argument, but many don't.

The best that would have happened would be some sort of religion as a reaction to whatever religion the empire impinging on the Arab tribes had. On the other hand, given that Xianity had some traits that would have altered history, there's no guarantee that the Arabs wouldn't have either been converted or uneffected.

[Ron Green]

6. Probably not. Although the brand of Christianity carried by the

colonizers of the New World supported lots of damage, It's not clear that a straight montheistic religion would have been any more humane in its conquests. The idea of forgiveness, although not often practiced by the rapacious "Christians" who peopled the world in the first couple of millenia, was at least in place and certainly had some effect as systems of laws were set up and cultures evolved.

To look at the permanent squabble between Islam and Judaism, we can't be sure that it would have been any better without the soldiers of the cross.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

21. the squabble

you refer to is one that really started in the last century. If you look at Moorish Spain before 1492, you see a large Jewish community there. When the Christians took over Sapin in that year, they forced the Jews to either flee or convert. Jews were allowed to live in Jerusalem under the Otoomans, and there is still a sizeable Jewish community in Morrocco.

[Nikepallas]

8. I can see where you are going... The idea of Christanity--the institution

would be and is completely different from Christianity the Ideas of Jesus. Let's face it the trouble and problem of christanity goes all the way back to Peter becoming the "Pope" Catholics distorted the ideas to fit their needs(think Wallets)and every other incarnation of a christian chuch has done the same thing.


I honestly think the world would be a much better place.

[ultraist]

13. I doubt it would be more peaceful without it

They would have simply found some other religion or form of government to rule, dominant and wage war.

I don't think it's the religion, per se, that makes people lust for power and control, but that they use religion to gain control over the masses.

[Nikepallas]

14. Maybe maybe not... It is a question to think about though

[burn the bush]

32. Why Ultraist, I agree with you.

surprising isn't it?:headbang:

[burn the bush]

31. I have often wondered how much further we might have advanced if our

dominant religion was pagan. Not devil worship. Pagan. Personal pirituality, connection with the universe, nature based.

I have been quite pissed off that the organized Christian religion lies to its people and makes them believe crap that is basically in the church's own interest.

I always have felt that religios peopel fare better. They are generally happier, healthier, and live longer. They are generally not as devastated by death as non believers and before the pukes took over so much of it, I envied the people who could truly believe and felt that Christianity does make one a better person.

NOw, it just scares me.

[benddem]

11. Muslims and Hindus

in India and Pakistan have had warfare for a long time. Doubt that without christians the world would be a nicer place. Maybe with no religion???

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

22. Pratapadsiki

is a town that was built in India by Emperor Akbar. (I probably have it spelled wrong, but if you google the Emperor's name you'll probably read about it). This city was built using Jewish, Muslim, Christian, and Hindu craftsmen and was meant to instill religious harmony. Sadly it did not last, but it does show that at one time in India's history there was an attempt at religious tolerance.

And that tolerance is still found today in many communities in India, especially among the Chisitia orders of Sufism. My husband went on pilgrimage to India in the mid 80s, and toured both Hindo and Muslim shrines. At Ananda Ashram he met Mother Krishnabai, whose blessing is still with him today. At that Ashram, his Sufi group was invited to do zikar at the bajan hall. Two spiritual traditions combined.

For those who wish to find out more about this open spiritual tradition in India, I would suggest you read "Unity of Religious Ideals" by Haz. Inayat Khan.

[QC]

12. DU has a religion forum.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topics&forum=214

[Astarho]

27. Hard to say

More advanced, possibly, since the Library at Alexandrian and the Mayan manuscripts may not have been burned.

Peaceful, probably not, since one of the other Mystery religions would have gained influence and probably been co-opted by the Roman state.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

36. Some other religion would have gained influence

and the world would still be violent.

I can say this with confidence because even Buddhism has been used to justify atrocities, as during the samurai era in Japan, and the Hindus and Muslims have been going at it in South Asia for generations.

I might also note that while the Europeans killed off a lot of Native Americans, the tribes were at war with one another frequently and long before the Europeans arrived.

The great empires of Central and South America or Africa were NOT founded by cheerful, friendly monarchs who knocked on people's doors and asked, "Would you like to be my subject?" They were founded by absolute monarchs who conquered their neighbors by force.

There's a nasty streak in human nature, and it seems to be raging somewhere in the world at all times.

[supernova]

40. Agreed, if it weren't xtianity

then you'd be sitting here making the same complaint about another religion that managed to take hold.

[dpt223]

41. No

We would have merely found something else to kill each other in the name of.