As Religious Strife Grows, Europe's Atheists Seize Pulpit

[question everything]

The Wall Street Journal

As Religious Strife Grows, Europe's Atheists Seize Pulpit
Islam's Rise Gives Boost To Militant Unbelievers; The Celebrity Hedonist
By ANDREW HIGGINS
April 12, 2007; Page A1

CAEN, France -- With 40 minutes to go before show time, the 500-seat Alexis de Tocqueville auditorium was already packed. A fan set up a video camera in the front row. A sound engineer checked the microphones. The star: Michel Onfray, celebrity philosopher and France's high priest of militant atheism. Dressed entirely in black, he strode onto the stage and looked out at the reverential audience for his weekly two-hour lecture series, "Hedonist Philosophy," which is broadcast on a state radio station. "I could found a religion," he said. Mr. Onfray, 48 years old and author of 32 books, stands in the vanguard of a curious and increasingly potent phenomenon in Europe: zealous disbelief in God.

Passive indifference to faith has left Europe's churches mostly empty. But debate over religion is more intense and strident than it has been in many decades. Religion is re-emerging as a big issue in part because of anxiety over Europe's growing and restive Muslim populations and a fear that faith is reasserting itself in politics and public policy. That is all adding up to a growing momentum for a combative brand of atheism, one that confronts rather than merely ignores religion.

(snip)

Mr. Onfray argues that atheism faces a "final battle" against "theological hocus-pocus" and must rally its troops. "We can no longer tolerate neutrality and benevolence," he writes in "Traité d'athéologie," or Atheist Manifesto, a best seller in France, Italy and Spain. "The turbulent time we live in suggests that change is at hand and the time has come for a new order." As with many fights involving faith, Europe's struggle between belief and nonbelief is also a proxy for other, concrete issues that go far beyond the supernatural. In this case, they involve a battle to define the identity of a continent.

(snip)

In London last month, leading British atheists squared off with defenders of faith in a public debate on the motion, "We'd be better off without religion." Tickets cost nearly $40 but so many people wanted to attend that the event was moved to a bigger venue with over 2,000 seats. It still sold out. The audience declared the atheists the victors, by a margin of 1,205 to 778, with a few score abstentions. In Germany, a wealthy furniture manufacturer is funding a "think tank of Enlightenment," a group of scientists and others committed to debunking religion. It is named after Giordano Bruno, a 16th-century philosopher and cosmologist who was burnt at the stake as a heretic. In Italy, one fervent nonbeliever has gone to the European Court of Human Rights with a claim that the Roman Catholic Church is guilty of fraud: Jesus, he says, never existed. Alarm over Islam has acted as the prime catalyst for much of the polemic. Europe's Muslim populace, estimated at between 15 million and 20 million people, is growing more numerous, more vocal and, in some cases, more religious. The clash also feeds on a deeper confrontation that dates back to Europe's Enlightenment, the 18th-century intellectual movement that asserted the primacy of reason over superstition.

(snip)

The backlash against religiosity has even seeped into Europe's Muslim community. In February, Mina Ahadi, an Iranian-born woman in Cologne, Germany, set up the Continent's first Muslim atheist group: the National Council of Ex-Muslims. She immediately started getting death threats and was put under police protection... Atheism, Ms. Ahadi says, must confront religion head-on -- and adopt its methods. Her group started with just 30 members in February and a month later had more than 400. It is lobbying European Union officials for restrictions on the veil and organizing a public meeting at which ex-Muslims will explain why they quit. "If you want to work against Muslim movements, you have to be like them," she says. "We have to go outside and say what we're fighting for." Europe's atheist campaigners have also made a splash in America. "The God Delusion," a book by Oxford Professor Richard Dawkins, has been on the New York Times hardcover nonfiction best-seller list for 28 weeks. Another British atheist, U.S.-based writer Christopher Hitchens, has written his own antireligious treatise, "God Is Not Great: How Religion Poisons Everything," due out in May.

(snip)

URL for this article:
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB117631918714166684.html (subscription)

[barb162]

1. Whoa, this is complex as hell.

And there are several major themes running through this article.

[Zookeeper]

2. Very interesting, but oddly enough....

what most stood out to me from the article was this:

"In London last month, leading British atheists squared off with defenders of faith in a public debate on the motion, "We'd be better off without religion." Tickets cost nearly $40 but so many people wanted to attend that the event was moved to a bigger venue with over 2,000 seats. It still sold out."

I can't imagine 2,000 Americans showing up for any kind of debate, much less one we had to pay $40 to attend. :(

[Kiouni]

3. I'm going to have to read up on this guy

I read this on wikipedia:

After suffering a heart attack aged 28 and being advised to change his diet, Onfray replied that he "preferred to die eating butter than to economize my existence with margarine."

my kind of guy!

[donsu]

30. agree, last time I knowingly ate margarine was during WWII

butter is so much better for you

[Clark2008]

76. I'd hope so - butter is a gazillion times better for the

heart than margarine. Margarine is unnatural and increases one's risk of heart disease. Butter, on the other hand, increases your body's ability to absorb the nutrients you need.

http://snopes.com/food/warnings/butter.asp

Sorry for the mini-rant and going off topic, but I just thought it was funny that this guy would assume that margarine is somehow allegedly more healthy than butter.

[fujiyama]

4. Good for them!

A continent that experiences a war that kills tens of millions of people will generally have their faith in God, ummm....shaken.

They have a serious threat from Muslim fundies, arguably worse than the Christian fundy whackos we have here. Atheists have to stand tough against intolerance in the name of God - whether it comes from Christians, Muslims, or whatever else.

[DFW]

5. I work mostly in Europe

And I speak nine European languages, so I can talk to a LOT of people.

I don't note militant atheism so much as a lack of interest in the subject
altogether. I was just talking to the retired Beekeeper/honey seller at the
outdoor market in the medieval town where I hang my hat in Germany. He is
an immigrant from Poland, which is over 90% Catholic, and not the enlightened kind.

He said he believed in God, but not in churches.

Religion, at least the organized kind, has just lost its relevance to a good
portion of the people here. Going every Sunday to some church to hear some
guy telling you what to believe and how to act when there's a good shot he
isn't doing either himself just doesn't appeal to people any more. Centuries
ago, the churches here in Europe were political and military powers, as well
as financial powerhouses. The general population was very poor, and when you
have nothing, you are very susceptible to promises, however empty.

Then, especially after World War II, as the populations recovered and grew
affluent, with huge social safety nets provided by the State, not by the
churches, people didn't need empty promises any more. Going to heaven after
you died got less important than being able to go to a hospital before you died.

Yes, there will always be control freaks, and Muslims get in trouble with the
law a lot because they often bring with them the mentality of their homelands,
which is fine if it hurts no one, but causes trouble when they think it's OK
to kill your daughter or wife because they expose too much leg in public.

All the same, I have never seen an activist atheist event or even seen one
announced or advertised, and I travel almost every day in Europe for my work.

I don't doubt that the WSJ report has reported facts, but anyone who gets the
impression that there is some wide-spread public activist atheist movement in
Europe is seeing a different Europe from the one I'm in. The Europeans are
pretty much indifferent to religion (with some major exceptions, such as Poland),
and to get the American right wing all in a frenzy (which I suspect was the intent
WSJ article all along) over some mass Europe-wide activist atheist movement is the
equivalent of invading Iraq due to WMD. It's the Little Man Who Wasn't There.

[KittyWampus]

14. Thanks for your insightful post. I think a lot of people everywhere are spiritual vs. religious

the old artifices are crumbling.

That said, I belong to an Esoteric Order that is growing rather rapidly abroad.

People are interested in "God" just not in the talking heads and rabble rousers.

[ms liberty]

19. This is a really informative post. Thank you...n/t

[JNelson6563]

23. Thanks for that!

I really appreciate reading first hand insights on this. Thanks for taking the time.

Julie

[question everything]

82. I think that this is the point that the WSJ was trying to make

and perhaps was not well transmitted as I am limited by the number of paragraphs I can post.

Yes, that Europeans are not interested in organized religions, that churches are empty most of the time and this person is trying to be an activist atheist. Also, that the militant Islamists may have provided the catalyst for many to even show interest.

[shrike]

87. I'd argue that church-goers are a minority here in the U.S., too

I live in a red state, and I am unusual in the fact that I attend church regularly. Almost no one I know does. None of them would call themselves atheists, almost all profess some belief in a higher power and those who don't believe seem to simply lack interest -- they don't care.

But, America's minority religious movements have power here and are vocal to say the least. Thank you for your perspective: the media prism by which we learn things is often different than what is going on in the real world.

[shrike]

88. I'm no expert, but I was under the impression that some European countries

particularly France, have a long and trouble relationship with their muslim immigrant populations. (James Baldwin wrote a remarkable story on this subject in the '40s.) Though I realize that religious fanaticism is a threat to us all, I have to wonder if SOME of this vitriol is also rooted in economic injustices and racism.

Just as our actions in the mideast stem not just from any misguided attempts to root out infidels, but from the desire to control economies and natural resources.

[and-justice-for-all]

6. I have never heard of this guy....

...But I will inquier further about him and his books.

I thought I was a hard handed Atheist, but this Mr. Onfray isnt fucking around. I do understand the strife, someone has to stand inbetween the two dogmas that are butting heads and could, if left to run amok, cause global catastrophe.

Superstitions are bad, bad things...tis, tis.

I will not object to Mr. Onfrays stance, I will support it more then likely, after further reading of course.

[YankeyMCC]

7. Oh boy "Militant Atheist" label again

just like those militant civil rights people or militant feminists or militant gay rights. :eyes:

But thanks for the article I will definitely look to learn more about Mr Onfray

[KittyWampus]

16. The title fits quite well for some athiests & many anti-theists. As obnoxious in their beliefs

and insistence of their rectitude while refusing to entertain any other viewpoints just as any other sort of Fundie.

Note- I said SOME, not all.

Is the gentleman in question militant? Don't know and ultimately don't care, either.

[Jonathan50]

21. When was the last time the Atheist Witnessess came knocking on your door.

Trespassing on your property, uninvited and unannounced in order to convert you to their way of thinking?

[Extend a Hand]

81. John Safran

flew from Australia to Utah to do just that


http://richarddawkins.net/article,327,John-Safran-vs-The-Mormons,John-Safran

funny stuff

[Random_Australian]

86. Aye, but he's a comedian, and a great one at that.

His road-tests of various religions was completely awesome.:)

[YankeyMCC]

24. No it doesn't fit well

there is no book or list of tenents for an atheist to be militant or fundamentalist about.

The person in question my be agressive in his speech and activity but the label of a 'militant' or 'fundamentalist' atheists is a right wing/theistic creation to attack the secular left.

[spoony]

25. If not militant, perhaps "obnoxious," "persistent," "harping"...

You didn't see nose-in-the-air jerkoffs becoming celebs writing books calling billions of people idiots in years past.

[Jonathan50]

31. All of those adjectives and many more can be applied to theists.

I get tired of being told I'm going to burn in hell for eternity.

A popular bumper sticker down here in the south is "Christians aren't perfect, just forgiven".

IMO, that's pretty arrogant.

[spoony]

33. I like that, though I'd

amend it to, "Christians aren't perfect, just aware they're forgiven."

And as for arrogance, nothing beats atheists calling themselves "brights." Lol.

[Jonathan50]

34. That saying means you can do any damn thing you please

And always have a clear conscience.

I'm not surprised that you fail to see this.

[spoony]

Now, see, if I were you

I'd run to a moderator saying you were being mean. Lol.

Of course, the only humans who can actually have a "clear conscience" about doing "ANY DAMN THING" they please are called, rightly, sociopaths. I assume you just misspoke.

[Jonathan50]

43. Go ahead, alert on it and we'll see which posts get deleted.

[spoony]

45. Way to miss the point.

I fight my own fights. You don't.

[Jonathan50]

64. I can fight my fights without insulting those I am in conflict with

That is the difference between us.

[Name removed]

70. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[YankeyMCC]

65. Those labels might be appropriate

although my quick glance at this person's record doesn't make me want to put those labels on him overall, though it does sound as though he probably did come off as obnoxious to some and certainly persistent. Certainly those labels are fair game for discussion in his case.

But I don't agree that we didn't have jerkoffs in years past calling people idiots. Most persistent nose in the air religious leaders have done exactly that to the billions of people who happen not to believe in the same gods or worship the same gods in the same way. Been going on for centuries. In fact they've done worse than use words.

Religion or theism has no corner on the market of good taste or morality any more than atheism does and atheism isn't a code of conduct the even makes such a claim.

[spoony]

68. But some atheists do make that claim, on behalf of atheism

Re-reading Dawkins and hearing of Hitchens reminds me that yes, those who call religion inherently evil, poison, immoral etc., ARE claiming a corner on morality.

[YankeyMCC]

75. Not on 'behalf of atheism'

Perhaps on behalf of their particular world view or philosophy but atheism is only the position that the person sees no evidence of gods. Atheism is not a moral philosophy. Individual atheists may be proponents of their moral philosophy but atheism is a lack of it.

And who exactly are you saying are claiming a corner on morality as you call it? Most freethinkers I know of and read claim exactly the opposite, what they rail for is the free expression of Doubt. The acceptance of the fact that no one can claim absolute knowledge of the truth or claim to be the absolute adjudicator of morality.

All this complaining about so called militant atheists sounds an awfully lot like the complaints about uppity minorities or the protests that homosexuals should just be quiet and stop complaining. No the suffering of atheists and those minorities are not equivalent in most cases but there are certainly parallels when the side with the overwhelming majority (theists) complain so loudly when the minority start talking aggressively about what they see as injustice and what they believe.

[Goblinmonger]

35. Does it ever get old?

'Cause it sure gets old reading it.

Please explain how an atheist can be a fundamentalist. Provide me with a definition of fundamentalism and clearly show how an atheist can be one.

Just because atheists are daring to speak up more about their thoughts makes them neither militant nor fundamentalist.

[spoony]

36. If the antagonistic, hostile, vicious, bigoted

things atheists are saying and now publishing is truly representative of your community's thoughts, then you should be ashamed to voice them.

[Goblinmonger]

38. Oh, you get to join in on the

put up or shut up column.

Since you mention publishing, I would imagine that you must be talking about Dawkins or Harris (although you make it sound like there is this vast cornicopia of atheists out there publishing). Please let me know specifically what those two gentlemen are publishing that is "antagonistic, hostile, vicious, and bigoted." Especially the bigoted part because the first three are kinda open to interpretation.

[spoony]

41. By not simply arguing against a concept

but focusing more intensely upon the people affiliated with that concept, and judging them to be inferior, ill-educated, dumb, etc., atheists who engage in such attacks show themselves to be bigoted against billions of fellow humans.

I can't believe this isn't obvious, but you don't have to think someone is an idiot to think they're wrong, and you certainly don't have to constantly call them idiots to argue that they're wrong. Look around you. Look at threads about religion and the way the religious are referred to here, elsewhere on the net, and yes in the books you mentioned.

There is a huge, huge difference between an author arguing against God's existence and an author condemning people who disagree.

This haughty, arrogant "bright" bullshit that's trotted out would be more offensive if it wasn't so comedic. Theists aren't better than atheists, and atheists aren't better than theists. Everyone's trying to find meaning, no reason for any of us to persecute each other.

[Jonathan50]

46. Have you even read Dawkins or Harris?

Please give us quotes where these gentlemen are saying the things you accuse them of saying.

I can give you any number of extremely nasty quotes from the Bible.

[Goblinmonger]

47. So if I were to argue that Christian was just a bunch

of fuck all because fundamentalists do this, you would freak. But a small group of atheists start the "bright" movement, to which most of the DU atheists have responded they don't like the name, and you get to use that name against all atheists for all time. Interesting.

And don't you think Dawkins has a point that there have been bad things that came as a result of theists and that we should work hard not to repeat those things? Or should we never speak of them again?

[spoony]

49. Re-read that post.

Maybe then you'll get it: there are prats who are atheists and there are prats who are theists. NEITHER camp has an inherent superiority or right to look down on the other. Falwell and Dawkins are two sides of the same green penny, condemning the "others," one in the next life and one in this one because he doesn't believe in any other.

There will never, ever be civility nor respect when people like them are leading voices. For "my side," I reject Falwell and his ilk. How about your side?

[Goblinmonger]

51. So Dawkins doesn't have the right to look down on Falwell?

And if he does, then you compare him TO Falwell and condemn him for condemning assholes? That's an iteresting logic you have there.

But you have yet to show the statements he has made that fall into that category. Pull out that book of his you read and give me some quotations.

[spoony]

55. I see you and he have the same playbook

of distortion and defending bigotry. Especially telling is the unwillingness to accept that your opponent is your equal. Let me look at The God Delusion, and yes I've read it along with Harris (can you say the same of Plantinga or Polkinhorne?) and reply in a few minutes.

[Goblinmonger]

56. So if Falwell is an asshole

nobody can call him on it lest they be labeled as a bigot by you. I don't get it.

Just so you know, I am on my way home now and probably won't respond for an hour or more.

[spoony]

61. There's so many instances

In TGD chapter 1 there's literally a section called "undeserved respect," referencing of course the sensitivity of religious topics. It sets the tone for the rest of the book, iirc, laying the foundation of a stuck-up, piss-on-your-beliefs approach for which he and Harris are famous.

I didn't specifically highlight insults in the book as I was busy making notes on the arguments, when they'd sporadically appear that is. But I did note some instances in chapter two where he veers off into a rampage about how silly Catholics are for having saints--what that generally has to do with God's existence is a mystery to any reader, but it further shows his interest in not so much talking about the traditional philosophy of God's existence in a physical universe, but in ridiculing others.

The book is too damn long to go through in this manner again, but in skimming through I'm reminded that he calls people "dyed in the wool faith heads" and actually, unbelievably, places himself on a playground fighting other children about God complete with a "nanny nanny boo boo" taunting. Great scholarly tome, eh?

Still, Harris makes him look polite by comparison, so I suppose that's something.

But I don't guess that you'd find any problem with his style and insults, unless the name on the cover was Ann Coulter instead.

[Jonathan50]

66. Why should "faith" be deserving of respect?

What basis is there for respecting beliefs that do not rest on logical proof or evidence?

http://www.answers.com/topic/faith

faith (fāth) pronunciation
n.

1. Confident belief in the truth, value, or trustworthiness of a person, idea, or thing.
2. Belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence. See synonyms at belief, trust.
3. Loyalty to a person or thing; allegiance: keeping faith with one's supporters.
4. often Faith Christianity. The theological virtue defined as secure belief in God and a trusting acceptance of God's will.
5. The body of dogma of a religion: the Muslim faith.
6. A set of principles or beliefs.

[Name removed]

69. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[muriel_volestrangler]

79. Luckily, chapter 1 is online

here: http://www.bookbrowse.com/excerpts/index.cfm?book_number=1918

And I can't see any bigotry in it, or anything that's 'stuck-up' or 'piss-on-your-beliefs'. Will you point to what you think is? 'Faith head' is what you're objecting to, I presume. Is that bad? Faith is, after all, claimed to be the essence of religion.

[Greyhound]

73. I'm curious, you mention Falwell and his ilk. Who constitutes this ilk?

I ask because when I started down that road it lead me to the inclusion of all but the most secular religious leaders, those leaders condemned (excommunicated, punished, marked for death, etc.) by their own churches/religions.

[donsu]

90. I'm an atheist and I've never heard of the 'bright' business

what does the 'bright' suppose to mean?

[muriel_volestrangler]

101. Some people have tried to push the word 'bright', as analogous to 'gay'

It's meant to be more positive than a definition involving 'without' - and it's simple English, rather than a technical-sounding word derived from Greek. See eg

http://www.the-brights.net/

Personally, I think it's a silly idea - I don't have a problem with 'atheist' when that's appropriate (ie saying I don't believe in gods), and there are other words that work in the right context - 'humanist', 'naturalist', 'secular' and so on. On top of that, the implication of relative intelligence, whether it's meant or not, is bound to insult people.

[beam me up scottie]

89. Yes, it must really suck to have two or three people writing books criticizing your religion.

If my faith was so delicate that I went into fits of rage whenever I so much as heard their names, I would be compelled to complain about it repeatedly.

Why can't those god damned uppity atheists just shut the hell up and go back in the closet?

Jeez, I mean, it's not like christians are capable of affecting our culture and enacting laws supporting their religious beliefs or anything.



How do they ever endure such blatant atheist bigotry? :eyes:

[EvolveOrConvolve]

85. That's just ignorant

I've never heard of a militant atheist EVER. Could you provide some sort of proof that at least a small percentage of atheists are MILITANT. If not, shut the fuck up.

[ClintonTyree]

8. As always....

Europe is light years ahead of the Unites States in practical, logical thinking. While the Unites States is reverting back to the days of placing Scarlett Letters on people for their "sins", the Europeans are closely examining the entire god myth and finding.......nothing. Another renaissance is taking place in Europe. Religion never could hold up under close scrutiny which is why The Church wishes it's followers to refrain from examining it. Remember, the first lesson from the bible is to, "not eat from the tree of knowledge". Depend on The Church to tell you how to think. Question nothing. Very similar to the Republican party, the "angry daddy" always looking over your shoulder.

Perhaps, in a few short centuries, this same close examination of the god myth will spread to the States. We're dreadfully behind the curve.

[KittyWampus]

17. Your bias leads you to believe that people are moving from "God" and labelling

the concept "myth".

It is more likely people are just moving away from organized religions and the artifices created for them and exploring spirituality and God on their own terms.

Does the article explore the growth of what most label "New Age" groups?

No, it merely talks about people leaving churches empty.

[ClintonTyree]

20. "New Age" Groups?

Where the heck did that come from? What I'm saying is that Europeans are questioning organized religion and religion as a whole. Where did this "New Age" crap come from? You're under the impression that everyone MUST believe in something, whether it be religion, "new age" metaphysics......SOMETHING. I'm here to tell you that not everyone believes that there are mysterious forces working behind the scenes to pull the puppet strings. Why must everyone believe in a higher being or consciousness ? They're leaving the churches empty. Do you think there might be a reason for that? I suppose they're all lost little lambs that have lost their way and need a shepherd to get them back into flock formation, right? :eyes:

[Ron Green]

22. It's not about puppet strings.

When you get beyond the idea of CONTROL and think more about the idea of BEING, you might be able to understand that the search for meaning is a worthy cause, and will always involve the possibility of a higher consciousness. To the extent that you think "God" has to do with an organization, a dogma or a building, you're fighting a straw man.

[Goblinmonger]

37. Which would be as much of a straw man

as thinking that the search for meaning has to be about "god" or a "higher consciousness."

[Ron Green]

74. I think the search for meaning has got to INCLUDE "god" or a "higher consciousness,"

or the searcher is missing big chunks of the wisdom and experience that's gone before us. Being open to an "extra-logical" dimension is essential, in my view, to a fully-informed walk through life. Just as the religious zealot cuts himself off from the possibility of personal and communal growth and greater understanding, so does one who allows nothing not corporeally provable lack opportunities for knowing more.

[Silent3]

93. What exactly is a "search for meaning" anyway?

I've certainly contemplated the concept of God, many different concepts of God in fact... and I've found them all wanting. Interesting ideas, and certainly necessary ideas to study since so many of my fellow human beings buy into this stuff, but as far as any of these gods "existing" as some sort of "creator" or powerful being or "cosmic consciousness" -- such things seem vanishingly unlikely.

Am I supposedly, according to you, missing out on a "fully-informed walk through life" if I merely contemplate but don't believe?

How does "(b)eing open to an 'extra-logical' dimension", especially when you reject any need for proof, differ from mere psychological projection of hopes and fears?

Meaning is contextual. If you "search for meaning" as if meaning existed in the abstract (i.e. "the meaning of life"), I think all you're going to find is some self-amplified brain noise that you'll end up attaching way too much significance to.

[donsu]

91. "search for meaning a worthy cause"

humans don't have a 'meaning'

cats, dogs, birds, fish and humans don't have a 'meaning'. we just are.

[PassingFair]

60. All Praise Zeus! n/t

[spoony]

26. If you want to see scarlet letters

Look around DU at people pinning them on everyone who's tossed a bill or two at a stripper in their lives, lol. Judgemental prudes don't always carry Bibles, so avast matey.

[Goblinmonger]

39. How do you know

that those people saying that aren't theists who think like they do because of their religious upbringing?

or are you firmly in the "if you do something 'bad' you can't be a theist" camp?

[spoony]

42. You read the threads?

If so you wouldn't ask such things. The point is: judgement and condemnation comes from all over the place from all sorts of people. Do you disagree? Or are you firmly in the "if you do something 'bad' you can't be an atheist" camp?

[Goblinmonger]

48. How would I know

the religious affiliations of those that are posting that and what in their childhood upbringing caused them to have those prudish thoughts? I have read the threads. One of the more vocal ones in the past hour or so had a pink triangle as an avatar? Does that mean to you that they can't be a Christian?

Do tell, how do you know that their prudish reaction is not a result of their religion or religious upbringing?

They could be atheists and be bad. I never made that claim. I was just questioning your claim.

[spoony]

50. Don't put words in my mouth.

I don't know where your words have been. :P

[Goblinmonger]

52. I've giving you your words

and if you are worried about where they have been, that is your deal with yourself.

You said that all prudes don't carry bibles. My question has been, and still is, how do you know that the person making the prudish statements isn't a bible carrier or someone who is prudish due to their religious upbringing since you claim that they aren't?

I'm NOT arguing that there aren't asshole atheists. I am questioning how you know what you claim to know about those that are posting those things.

[spoony]

57. Posting links is a violation

of DU rules, and old Johnny has already shown me that you guys enjoy pounding the alert button. I'll just say that I've seen some of the same people around here before, and that I'm confident they aren't of a particularly Bible-thumping persuasion.

[PassingFair]

40. Don't worry, I'm sure you'll

get your strippers in heaven Spoony.

Gawd loves you.

[spoony]

44. Not my scene, don't want the 72 virgins either

But it's also not my place, or yours, or anyone of either theistic or atheistic affiliation, to call people who hire strippers assholes etc.

Again, the point is that people here always trot out the same lines about religion, but here's a prime example where the tolerant liberal community also shows some prudish hues.

[PassingFair]

59. So people who have a problem with strippers are "prudes"

...but people who ask for some back-up from "believers", who make
extraordinary claims of "revealed" knowledge, are out of
line?

[spoony]

62. You'll have to do better than that.

Since no one said what you think you're summarising.

[kiahzero]

80. That's not necessarily the first lesson of the Bible.

Many don't read it to be a lesson at all, but rather as a parable.

[Greyhound]

9. I find this quite encouraging and I hope it finds an audience here.

I have no problem with a belief in something greater than us, or in the hope for something after we die, but it is far past time for us to get over this schizophrenic delusion of some supernatural being which loves us all very deeply, but who won't do anything to help us. An omnipotent, omnipresent, being to whom we give credit for all that is good, but is not responsible for that which is bad. One whose very existence defies reason, yet the lack of reason is the proof of existence in itself. That my "knowledge" of this definitively unknowable being is better than your knowledge of the brand you believe in and because of that, it is OK for "us" to kill "you".

Is it any wonder that so many people claim to want peace, but feel the only way to achieve it is through war, that we should assist those with less, yet are repulsed by the idea that it should be they that does the helping. We condition our children with this logical dissonance from birth and it sets the mind up to accept that which is obviously wrong or untrue for their whole lives, IOW, this is the foundation upon which the harmful delusions we cling to come from.
:hide:

[Jonathan50]

12. Another dissonance to add to your list..

This is "the land of the free".

And yet we have the highest incarceration rate on the planet.

[Selatius]

54. Land of the free? More like land of fascism.

When a few corporations control the news media, something vital to the functioning of any nation, the only result is poisoned minds and an ill-informed citizenry with no concept of community or past or even future.

[Greyhound]

72. Exactly, there are too many to list, or at least too many for most people to read. n/t

:kick:

[question everything]

83. The problem comes, of course, when different groups of people

claim ownership of "a god" often a personal god who listens to one's personal calls and responds.

Thus, Bush and his followers have their "god," the militant Islamists have theirs and each is ready to kill the other in the name of their personal god.

I like your definition of "an omnipotent, omnipresent, being" and I don't mind even someone believes in that being created us as thinking individuals to make decisions and live by the consequences.

[muriel_volestrangler]

10. Link to the same article in a non-subscription newspaper

http://www.nwherald.com/articles/2007/04/13/news/nation_and_world/doc461f5d01d7acb042697268.txt

[chaska]

32. Thanks for that. Maybe the OP can edit his/her link.

[question everything]

84. Thank you. Unfortunately I posted last night

before I logged off and it is too late to edit the post. Hopefully others will find it.

[Solly Mack]

11. I'm obviously missing a lot

[Joanne98]

13. I'm a fan already. Can we get him to tour the US?

[spoony]

27. Why? Online scorn for fellow citizens not enough? n/t

[Pastiche423]

77. Why worry about scorn

if you hold deep beliefs?

[Vexatious Ape]

15. Great post. I wish it would happen here.

[Neshanic]

18. The French again change the world..who wudda thunk?

[Name removed]

29. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

63. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Jonathan50]

71. All you have to do is avoid insulting others.

And then your posts won't get deleted.

It's really quite simple.

[donsu]

28. "one that confronts rather than merely ignores religion"

its past time religion was confronted

[Selatius]

53. A strong confrontation of religion and dogma is necessary in the world today.

I support any movement that attempts to prove why it isn't proper to submit to religious dogma, hierarchy, religious clerics, or anybody who claims to know the truth and provides nothing but hearsay.

[Hamlette]

58. kick and r n/t

[toddaa]

67. Religion can always use a little help dying off

Just wish it would die a little quicker.

[More Than A Feeling]

78. Supernatural ideas definitely should be challenged.

They don't deserve a free pass just because they've wrapped themselves in ethics, community, art, and wonder at the universe. .

[donsu]

92. I did not write post #28 - don't know who did but it wasn't me

nt

on edit - I did write #28

got confused reading this long thread.

sorry

and what I wrote stands

[eagler]

94. Why do atheists post on a religion and theology blog?

[Evoman]

95. Because elephant have flat feet.

[beam me up scottie]

96. This is a religion and theology blog?

Get the fuck outta here!

:rofl:


I think you've got your "internets" confused, this is a liberal political board with a dedicated forum for discussing matters pertaining to religion and theology.

Maybe this is the blog you're looking for?: http://www.presidentialprayerteam.org/site/PageServer?pagename=ppt_homepage

[PassingFair]

97. LOL...n/t

[question everything]

98. They don't

I seriously considered posting here but realized, of course, that this does not belong here. Posted on GD and was moved over here by the moderators.

I apologize. Did not mean to offend anyone but thought that this was an interesting report and, no, I did not find any deep meaning because it appeared in the WSJ. (While the editorial pages of the WSJ are as right as they can be, the news sections are excellent).

I do find commonality between the extremes of all religions. The "bible brigades" that voted for Bush and considers this a "Christian nation" - and that kill people in abortion clinics - are just as bad as the Talibans against whom we conduct a "crusade" (and expect to be welcomed in that part of the world, using this term).

[varkam]

99. Because we are coming for your pets.

:eyes:

[trotsky]

102. Speak for yourself.

I'm after their virgin daughters. MUAH HA HA HA HA! :evilgrin:

[NAO]

100. Salk was "Militant anti-Polioist"; Jenner was a "Militant anti-SmallPoxist"

Yes, Salk did obliterate the horrific plague of polio is his lifetime. Jenner developed a vaccine for smallpox that allowed us to rid the planet of this scourge.

But the worst scourge that has infested the human race is the delusional mental disorder that leads people to embrace irrational, superstitions religious beliefs.

The brave free-thinkers who are working on a cure for theism - if they are able to unmake theism before theism unmakes the world - will be remembered for thousands of years as the greatest liberators of humanity.

[MistressOverdone]

103. Militant atheist?

new one on me!

To each his/her own, I guess...