Probably the worst thing that ever happened to

[Joe for Clark]

christianity was organized religion.

We know that. Us catholics, protestants - we know.

We know the gospels. We know that, too.

I think the interesting thing is - with all the bad things that accompanied the rise of christianity - we remember the sermons on the mount most today.

That "what so ever you do to the least of my brothers" - thing - we internalized that.

That is us.

Be careful how you judge us - I really think - go back to those writtings - and judge them by the writter - and forget the church you learned them in.

Cause that was never important.

Joe

[MadMaddie]

1. Joe you couldn't have summed it up any better.....

[Joe for Clark]

3. There are a lot of us that feel the same way Maddie.

Joe

[beam me up scottie]

2. I've never considered christians to be morally superior or inferior to non-christians.

When you tell me you're a christian, all I know is which god you believe in.

We should all be judged by our actions, not by our labels.

:)

[Joe for Clark]

4. The point is there is only one god.

Maybe every religion is right.

Maybe all religions just stress a different way to go.

Maybe.

But we will all be judged by our actions- if we are judged at all.

I will not ever tolerate a religion trying to tell me what "Jesus" means ever again. I can read too.

In fact, the people doing this judgement - Better not be driving Mercedes Benz while people are starving - cause they will be the first to go to hell.

Christiantity is not wrong because "Fallwell" manages to divert it - it is right in spite of it.

I think that is the real deal -

I think so.

Joe

[beam me up scottie]

5. Um, that's not a point, that's a belief.

Of course, what do I know? All of us godless heathens have no idea how to act morally.

Why, we're so ignorant we just judge people by their actions.

[Joe for Clark]

6. A) I didn't say that.

But this is a logic problem - isn't it??

How can there be more than one???

Not really plausable, huh.

You can judge people however you want - really not important.

But if our judgemennt is we treat eveyone as if they are the son of god - then we can't possibly screw up - right?

What do you think christianity really is about?


Joe

[Goblinmonger]

8. I think the point trying to be made

was that your post begs the question that there really is a god. You argue that there is just one god. Perhaps there is zero.

[Joe for Clark]

10. Valid point.

If there is one - I would be considering this life - what you do or not.

If there is not - it will not matter.

You get a 50-50 chance. How do you bet it??

Isn't that the question??

OR - Is the question - DO you think life exists without reason?? Do you??

I don't think there is a lack of reason. I don't think that christianity is the only way. But if there is a reason - I think it is a way.

I cannot believe spirit exists without reason. That energy can cease without reason. That it is not converted upon death - nor that energy can ever be created or destroyed.

SO - it is what you really belive that counts - isn't it??

All in all - I'd sure do the best I can in this world.


Joe

[Goblinmonger]

11. Pascal's Wager

is SOOOOOO 17th century.

The obvious problem is that you are betting that there is one god and your belief in any god is going to be good enough. How sure are you about that? Which god are you going to put your money on?

And since I don't believe in gods, why WOULDN'T I do the best I can in the world. It's my only go around. When I die it's over. OR are you trying to imply that because I don't believe in gods that I have no morality base. I hope that's not what you're saying, but it kinda looks like it.

Should I fake belief in god just is case, Blaise?

[Joe for Clark]

16. Not a bet to me - I believe it.

That there may be a god - well, there can only be one superior - hardly a risk.

It is a 50-50 thing -

And you are surely free to do whatever you want.

Joe

[cosmik debris]

19. It is NOT a 50-50 chance

There are claims of hundreds of gods. The chance that you are right about the one claim you make is one in hundreds. You Christians can be so bad at math when you want to.

[Joe for Clark]

23. Actually I am an accountant and I am very good at math.

The only claims by Christians, Jews or Muslims for that matter - was to one god.

You talking about Hindus ---???

Joe

[cosmik debris]

26. In the History of Man

There have been claims of hundreds of gods from Ra to Zeus to Shiva to Hirohito. The odds of you picking the right one from all the available gods is one in several hundred. Pretty slim chances for you to bet eternity on. Hope you got some good tips at the track. You're gonna need them.

[Joe for Clark]

27. Well, since my grand uncle is now a saint - maybe I do.

But tell me - Are you equating Shintoisim?? I am still pissed at Japan for what they did.

That there is only one god - I got GREAT odds in that.

I bet on me - and I don't bet unless I know I win -

I am an accountant.

Joe

[cosmik debris]

30. Just so you know the math is against you.

Yes, the Japanese people believed that their emperor was god. Their belief was just a certain as your belief. Their faith was just as strong as your faith. Their certainty was just as sure as your certainty. And there are hundreds of other examples. I only picked the gods from 3 continents. Imagine how many there are on all continents.

Face it, the odds of you picking the right god are mighty slim. And as an accountant you should know that.

[Joe for Clark]

31. Could be the same god - huh??

Joe

[cosmik debris]

33. And it could be that they are all wrong.

I'm just correcting your math Mr. Accountant.

[Joe for Clark]

35. Goes back to 50-50, doesn't it??

[cosmik debris]

39. I tried, but it didn't sink in

There are hundreds of possibilities. You picked one as the correct one. The probability of you being correct is one in several hundred.

Now you may say that Yahweh is really Zeus in disguise who is really Amenhotep in disguise and that Hirohito is really Shiva in disguise. And the Maya gods are ALL the same as the Zulu gods in disguise. (that's pretty revolutionary theology) But you would be hard pressed to find evidence of that. And what about Baal? and the other gods that the Jews were warned against? The lord thy god is a jealous god....

[Joe for Clark]

41. There are only two possibilites -

That there is one or not.

If there is one - there can only be one superior - in whatever culture you want to deem appropriate.

Joe

[cosmik debris]

44. That's just flat wrong

"That there is one or not." :rofl:

Or there are several. Or there are Dozens. Or there are hundreds. Or there are thousands.

You have jumped to the only conclusion that will support your bad math.

It's back to school for you.

[Joe for Clark]

48. If there were a hundred "gods" - and one was superior.

Than who is god? - Your argument does not work.

Joe

[beam me up scottie]

52. If I have a hundred boyfriends and one of them is superior,

who is my boyfriend?

I'm not a slut or anything, I only have about forty or so right now.

[Joe for Clark]

55. Ok - if you have a hundred gods and one is superior -

who is god??

The inferior one??

I don't think so.

Joe

[beam me up scottie]

80. If there are many who is the one ???

Psycho-babble.

[Joe for Clark]

84. You guys make assumptions -

On what basis - different names??

If there was one superior god - would he tolerate inferior gods. If he was superior couldn't he just destroy them??

Isn't that possible?? Likely???

Joe

[beam me up scottie]

95. Atheists don't believe in gods, we don't make assumptions about imaginary beings.

You just admitted that there could be other gods.

God(s).

As in more than one.

What if yours was the inferior one?

How many angels can fit on the head of a pin?

[cosmik debris]

96. again, if my aunt had balls

You can make all the "If..." statements you want, but they don't count as anything but idle speculation. If you are using idle speculation to support your 50-50 contention, you have reached the ultimate in lameness.

[cosmik debris]

54. And if my aunt had balls

She'd be my uncle.

So let's go back to the basics. If you have a die with six sides numbered one through six, the odds of rolling a six are one in six. You can't pretend that all the sides are six. And you can't pretend that there is only one side. You can't pretend that if it comes up three that it really is a six. You can't make up scenarios just to justify your failed math skills. And asking stupid questions like "which one is god" doesn't change the math.

I'm sure glad you aren't doing my taxes.

[Joe for Clark]

58. I guess you should go to Jackson-Hewitt.

Why do you assume it is even??

Superior/inferior presupposes it is not even. And it can never be. No more than two blades of grass or two leaves on a tree are ever even.

It is interesting to note - the three major western religions - christians, jews and muslim do agree on one thing - that there is only one god -

For a good reason I think -

I see you do not agree.

Joe

[cosmik debris]

65. I love the way you ignore several continents

and several thousand years of history when you talk about religions and gods. You are not ethno-centric are you? Do I sense a superiority complex? Just a little maybe?

Why do I assume that it is even? Because that is where the EVIDENCE leads me. Why do you assume the opposite? Got evidence?

Your presuppositions are no more valid than your "if...." clauses unless you have evidence to support them. It is pretty clear that you are grasping at straws to justify the decisions you made. Wouldn't it have been better if you had found the justification before the decision was made?

[Joe for Clark]

66. Ethnocentricity has to do with cultural bais -

Now I am from AMERICA - land of many cultures -

You have evidence do you - please share it - because I wouldn't want my poor christian beliefs to get in the way of real evidence.

Prove the negative - you will be the first ever to do that.

Joe

[cosmik debris]

67. All I can prove is that hundreds of people

have equal faith in their hundreds of gods. That certainly implies equality. That is evidence. Now you share the evidence that your god trumps their gods.

[Joe for Clark]

70. There could only be one superior.

Cultures can call him different names - does not make him different (assumes it is a him).

Just different names.

Joe

[cosmik debris]

75. That's all you have for evidence?

And that is as lame as your math.

How do you know that there is a superior one? How do you know that they are not all equal? You are still grasping at straws to hide the logical deficiencies in your argument.

Face it, you are just making stuff up so you won't have to admit that the 50-50 remark was bogus.

[Joe for Clark]

81. Ok - you want to believe that - you go ahead.

Tell me - what two things in your life you ever saw that were really equal.

DO that and I will shut up.

Joe

[cosmik debris]

86. One and one.

Both are equal. Need another math lesson?

[Joe for Clark]

90. It is not true.

They are not equal.

1 and 1 can equal zero - right?? Or two - or pretty mcuh what ever you want - just change the system.

You pose the simple answer to complex questions - not good.

Joe

[cosmik debris]

92. This 1

is equal to this 1.

If you say they are not equal then you have changed the system that they originated in. You changed them just like you changed theology and math to fit your ridiculous statement about the 50-50 chance.

[Silent3]

57. You claim to be good at math...

...but you then say something as patently ridiculous as (pardon the cross-post composition of quotes) "There are only two possibilities... Goes back to 50-50, doesn't it??"?

I flip a coin. There are only two possibilities: heads or tails. 50-50.
I buy a lottery ticket. There are only two possibilities: I win the jackpot or I don't win the jackpot...

50-50?

Puh-lease.

You can make the definition of God so broad and so vague, such as "God is the Sum Total of Everything", and while you're patting yourself on the back for coming up with this cheesy tidbit of ultimately meaningless dime store mysticism, you'll have put the odds of "God" existing (not a very impressive God, mind you) all the way up to 100%. Congratulations.

If you get very slightly more specific, and say you're talking about a "God" so loosely defined that any and every god and goddess ever devised over the course of human history is "really" this one God, then you conveniently (at the price of having made your God so vague as to be nearly pointless) get yourself down to two exhaustive possibilities -- God or no God -- but you still won't have any way to know how to weight those two options. 60-40? 1-99? 50-50 is not an automatic, magical default probability distribution you get simply by setting up two choices.

[Joe for Clark]

64. You are sure good at putting words in other peoples mouths

aren't you??


You don't have to believe what I do - it is ok. Up to you.

But don't you ever give me a math lesson again.

Joe

[cosmik debris]

72. Seems to me he put your words in your mouth

And math lessons are appropriate where math deficiency is evident.

If you hadn't said the silly 50-50 thing you would not have to try so hard to cover it up.

[Joe for Clark]

73. I hope I can put words in my own mouth.

If not I am in big trouble.

[cosmik debris]

76. You seem to have a pretty poor track record on that score. n/t

[Joe for Clark]

78. That is funny -

[Silent3]

74. Of course I don't have to believe what you do.

For instance, you believe you don't need any lessons in math.

Case in point. :evilgrin:

[Evoman]

93. There are only two possibilities about my Talking Ass Pimple God

My talking ass pimple either exists or my talking ass pimple does not exist.

Its a 50-50 percent chance.

Choose wisely...make the wager.

[Random_Australian]

88. Ok, run this bit by me:

"OR - Is the question - DO you think life exists without reason?"

What makes you think lives without God have no reason? As in, if the world was not created by God, why does that prevent any reason from ever existing?

[beam me up scottie]

9. You're going to use logic to prove there's only one god ?

That's as futile as trying to use it to prove there are any at all.



If what you say about treating everyone like they are the son of god is true, there are no christians.


Trust me, you don't want to know my opinion about what christianity and other revealed religions are really all about.



The only way to NOT be a religious bigot is to not judge people based on their religion.

Calling yourself a christian doesn't make you morally superior to non-christians.

Nor does it make you morally inferior.

[Joe for Clark]

17. Well - I do.

"If what you say about treating everyone like they are the son of god is true, there are no christians."

Joe

[beam me up scottie]

22. So you're just like Jesus?

You've never treated anyone unkindly, misjudged them, expressed anger or impatience?

Colour me skeptical.

[Joe for Clark]

25. Of course I have -

But I TRY.

Joe

[beam me up scottie]

28. So?

You posted

But if our judgemennt is we treat eveyone as if they are the son of god - then we can't possibly screw up - right?

I don't know any son of god.

I try to treat everyone the way I'd want to be treated.

Please explain how YOUR trying to do that is any different.


Of course, I'm just a morally bankrupt atheist that thinks "life exists without reason".


Should I bow to your obvious moral supremacy because you believe in supernatural beings?

[Joe for Clark]

29. No - just to your own belief system.

I never accuse anyone who believes differently form me of anything.

And I am no evangelical.

But if there was a son of god - would you treat him any worse that you would want to be treated??

You see the point.


Oh, I am probably goin to hell too - but I do try my best.

Joe

[beam me up scottie]

32. Why would you want to believe in a deity that tells you you're going to hell?

If I believed in a god, it wouldn't be one who sends people who try to treat others the way they want to be treated to suffer in hell for eternity because they weren't perfect, believed in the wrong deity or didn't believe at all.

[Joe for Clark]

36. He doesn't say it - It became vogue centuries later.

Anyway - hell can have nothing to do with what you believe - just how you live your life.

Joe

[beam me up scottie]

38. Do you believe in hell or not?

If you do, why would you think you'd go there if you follow the golden rule?

And if you don't, why do you keep bringing it up?

It's not like it explains anything or scares any of us, WE don't believe in it, after all.

[Joe for Clark]

42. I think there may be one -

Has to do with how can there be a positive without a negative. Balance of nature and all that.

I will assume I go to hell - that way - if it turns out the other way - I will be happy.

You know -

And you can believe anything you want - this is an individual thing - personal.

Joe

[beam me up scottie]

45. I'm touchy about this hell thing because

I married a good man who grew up believing he was going to hell because of his sadistic fundamentalist mother.

He still thinks that.

To me, that's child abuse.

I understand that belief is a personal thing, but, IMO, if there is a hell, you are one of the last people who needs to worry about going there.

I don't think your god is the same god as my ex-mother-in-law's. Her god was a hateful, merciless and murderous deity. And he certainly never inspired her to practice the golden rule.

If your faith makes you a better person and brings you comfort, that's a good thing.

[Joe for Clark]

51. Oh, my faith suggest there isn't a hell.

Part of it- if you assume the worst you can do better - is just pragmatic.

That part of me says if you have a positive there must be a negative to balance it - has nothing to do with faith.

My belief is therefore disconnected from my learning.

Joe

[Goblinmonger]

7. Isn't another part of the sermon on the mount

the bit about "judge not lest ye be judged"? Didn't internalize that bit or it's OK to judge Falwell and the Mercedes Benz drivers that you know are going to hell?

I have no problems with Christians on face value. You are the person you are and I will make judgements based on that.

I do have a problem with those that think they are morally superior to others because of their god. Honestly, you seem to be riding that fence. I haven't made a clear decision yet because you seem like a good guy.

[Joe for Clark]

13. It is.

I am not morally superior- I just know he is not right (Fallwell) - that he is a prime candidate to go to hell - well, that is my take on it - that is all.

Man, maybe I do too go to hell. Not my decision.

I am not riding any fence. This is a right or wrong thing to me- I think.

As to your decision about me - why do I care?? Unless your name is J. C. - why WOULD I care??

I do do the right as I see it.

And I don't even know you.

Joe

[Goblinmonger]

15. Not saying you would care

about me and my thoughts.

Of course you are posting in a public forum, so there must be some level of caring what others think.

In case you are curious, you are moving over to the "like you" side. You're kinda quirky and seem to be pretty cool.

[Joe for Clark]

18. Oh, I really don't care what anyone else thinks of me.

I say what I mean and I mean what I say -

I have been called quirky - eccentric - all that.

Doesn't bother me at all.

In fact - I probably am.

Joe

[Joe for Clark]

20. You don't think I think of you -

That you had the balls to post here - and say what you think??

I don't have to agree with you to think you are A OK person.

I can't tell you how much I respect that.

We don't have to agree - I respect it very much.



Joe

[Goblinmonger]

21. And I agree

that we can have mutual respect without agreement. I think we have reached that.

:toast:

[Duncan]

12. I'm an athiest

I think what so ever we do to the least of our brothers we do to ourselves.
I think its true no matter who said it or says it.
Internalized or not.
And I'm not judging any body.
I like people and I'm friendly in spite of the fact that people suck.
And I hate it when ever anybody is humiliated.
Peace on you.
Good night.

[Joe for Clark]

37. It really is all karma in the end -

That - what goes around comes around.

[bob4460]

14. When I try to explain religion to the kids

I try to get them to understand the I do not doubt what is written in the bible,but I do not believe what the ways the words are twisted by people. Hell ,even Hitler twisted the bible to justify the Holocaust

[Joe for Clark]

34. Personally - I just forced the kids to go thru CCD and then let them

decide.

Hitler wasn't a christian - he used elements to further himself - thats all.

Know how many priests he killed??

Joe

[MethuenProgressive]

24. Nice post, Joe.

[Joe for Clark]

40. Methuen -

There are a lot of us now -

Anyone corrupts christians again - will be over my dead body.

Didn't matter to me a few years ago - what people called themselves- christian- whatever. Does now.

Joe

[Evoman]

61. Ha...I plan on corrupting a christian tonight.

Lol..unless I fall asleep first...I've had a hard day.

[beam me up scottie]

82. I'm corrupting one tomorrow night.

BMUS's "Do Not Disturb" sign will be on the door.

[Evoman]

85. Corrupting christians is fun.

And, for whatever reason, suprisingly easy. :evilgrin:

[beam me up scottie]

97. He's been begging me to corrupt him for months.

That particular kind of corruption is especially enjoyable for atheists since we don't believe in sin.

:evilgrin:

[More Than A Feeling]

43. Love, peace, and equality

aren't good ideas because they were spoken by a character in a book someone once decided to imbue with authority over them. They are good ideas because they help us live together.

Frankly, without organized religion, Christianity would have disappeared with the death of the person who first came up with it, because they would never have shared those supernatural ideas with anyone else. As soon as you have one person convincing others to believe the same supernatural ideas, and meeting together, you've got organized religion.

And even without Christianity, we would still have the ideals of love, peace, and equality. Those aren't religious ideas. They are human ideas.

[Joe for Clark]

46. The church ws never intended as institution.

It was an ideal.

I am catholic - cause on the whole - I think it is ok.

But I understand there was an inquisiton - that some popes had orgies in the vatican- etc, etc..

People misused that institution - people do misuse institutions.

Christianity does not exists because of a church - it exists in spite of it.

That is why I am christian.

Joe

[More Than A Feeling]

49. No, it really does exist because of the institutions.

Otherwise, who would defend, promote, and pass on the Christian brand of supernatural ideas to the next generation?

[Joe for Clark]

53. Just the gospels.

I don't need a church for that - just a fair interpretation of the aramaic.

And I do not appreciate the slants given it over the centuries - by any faith.

And I don't think Christ would either.

Joe

[More Than A Feeling]

56. Without any faith to give it slants, the Bible would be like an early version of Lord of the Rings

After all, without faiths, nobody would believe in supernatural entities on the Bible's authority. Just like nobody believes in Sauron, or Gandalf, or Hobbits. (J.R.R. Tolkien was Catholic, remember.)

[Joe for Clark]

59. Pretty over sweeping, don't you think??

We do not need the church to tell us christ existed - we know that from other sources.

I don't thik bilbo did - do you??

JOe

[Evoman]

62. Uh...what other sources?

[Joe for Clark]

69. Besides the roman writter of the time.

Heroditous -

The quoran qoutes him (Jesus) so does maybe six Greek writers, historians of the time. He appears in the appropriates roman census in year decades prior to death.

There is a fair amount of secular evidence here.

Joe

[Evoman]

89. I was not aware of these.

Do you have links, or maybe a book title, where this could be corroborated?

"The quoran qoutes him"

Yeah, but wasn't that hundreds of years later..not very good evidence there.

"six Greek writers"

Which ones? Your not including the forgery of Josephus are you?

"He appears in the appropriates roman census in year decades prior to death"

Really? I hadn't read this. But wasn't Jesus a common name back then?

[Joe for Clark]

91. I said heroditous. Joephus too - forgery??

I don't think so.

Jesus was common - but not from Nazareth. Not with a line to the house of David.

I don't think I spelled the quoran correctly - but you know what I mean.

And they used different sources.

Joe

[charlie]

98. Herodotus lived centuries before Jesus

And there aren't any Roman census records that include Jesus. There are only Biblical passages that say Joseph went to Bethlehem to participate in the census.

[More Than A Feeling]

63. Not really.

The willingness to believe in supernatural entities without evidence is the definition of faith. You happen to believe in the supernatural entities written about in a particular book. If you didn't have faith, you wouldn't believe in them, and the Bible would be, to you, a book like any other.

As for Jesus, have you considered the possibility that, if he existed, he knew no more about gods than I, you, or anyone else in history? There was no more evidence for gods 2000 years ago than there is now.

[Joe for Clark]

68. The reason I believed in those gospels -

I know who wrote them and I believe to this day the person that said those things, even in the bias of the writting - was not from this world. That simple.

To me.

Joe

[More Than A Feeling]

71. Who wrote them?

I'm curious, because even scholars don't know the names of the people who wrote them. But you say "not from this world"-what other world would there be?

The people who wrote the Bible were as human as you or I, and like I said, they had no more knowledge about the supernatural than you or I, which is to say, none at all.

[Joe for Clark]

77. They know.

Not from this world - implies another - right?

Indeed the writters were human - but the subject was probably not. The old testament - I don't know.
Cause it is true - just conjecture as to the writters.

TO this day, we judge 2000 year old new testament writtings - from all the grayness of those times - and they still ring true to us.

The new - not so. Not within reason.

Joe

[More Than A Feeling]

83. What possible reason could you have for believing in another world?

People write about non-human subjects all the time, in science fiction/fantasy novels. Doesn't make the things they write about exist.

I told you, the reason it rings true to you is because you are willing to believe in supernatural entities without evidence. Otherwise, you wouldn't believe all the scenes in the Bible which feature Yahweh talking to Jesus or anyone else, or the scenes featuring the miracles, because, as I noted, just because someone wrote it, doesn't make it true. You still need evidence, and there isn't any.

P.S. You still haven't revealed to me the names of the people who wrote the gospels.

[Joe for Clark]

87. Maybe it is faith - that there is something after death.

I guess you don't think so.

Joe

[More Than A Feeling]

94. After death, the world goes on without you.

As you noted, in order to believe in that you personally will continue to live after your death, you do need faith, since there is no evidence of that. Based on the evidence I have knowledge of, human beings are entirely physical, so when the body dies, there is no functioning brain to produce consciousness.

[Evoman]

60. Without the Christian chrurch, Christianity would have died out a long time ago.

It started as a cult, and would have died as a cult.

[Duncan]

50. Right on.

You don't need to be religious to be compassionate, and you don't become compassionate by being religious.

[Evoman]

47. You can't get any less religiously organized than atheism.

I'm just saying :shrug:

[cyborg_jim]

79. That's right, that's what we want them to think.

MUWAHAHAHAHA.

EAC forever!

[muriel_volestrangler]

99. Hasn't Christianity always been organised, according to the Bible

After the death/expulsion of Judas from the 12 disciples, one of the first things the rest of them did was elect another one to get their numbers back to 12. Then they formed a commune. It all seems very organised to me.

[MistressOverdone]

100. When human organize they

either get very dangerous or dysfunctional or they sometimes join together and do great things.

Pretty much like individual humans, I guess.