The meaning of life

[Zebedeo]

For my thousandth post, I thought I should address something of importance, or which, I submit, should be regarded as something of importance, to all of us.

What I would like to discuss is nothing less than the meaning of life. I am sure that many of you have views on this topic, and I have no doubt that the views have been well thought-out over the years. There are some very serious thinkers on this board, and I am most interested in what your perspectives are on this age-old question.

It is possible that some of you will express the opinion that life has no meaning at all; that our existence in the universe is nothing more than an accident caused by random processes. I do not share that opinion, but I would be interested in hearing why you hold that opinion, and how that opinion informs your actions in day to day life – if indeed it does at all.

For those of you who do believe that life has meaning and purpose, I invite you to state what you believe the meaning and purpose of life is, and why. It would also be helpful to me if you would disclose in general terms what your religious perspective is – whether Christian, Jewish, Muslim, etc.

In starting a thread like this, I suppose that it is incumbent on me to state my view regarding the topic. Therefore, I humbly offer my view as follows:

This material world involves amazing goodness and unfathomable evil, and everything in between. More than that, we as individual moral actors, have the ability to contribute to the goodness, or to contribute to the evil. There are millions of opportunities for human souls to do what is right, or to do what is wrong. To me, it is evident that humans are the only mortal organisms who have these opportunities. A penguin is not “good” when she helps a fellow penguin raise her young, any more than she is “evil” when she kills and eats a fish. Animals just do what they do. Humans, on the other hand, can choose to do good or evil.

I think that one of the purposes of life is to give each of us the opportunity to choose whether to do good or to do evil.

I think that another purpose is to teach each of us to do good rather than evil.

As a Christian, I also believe that each of us is given a lifetime to choose whether to accept or reject God. According to my belief, each of us has sinned against God, but each of us has been offered redemption from the consequences of that sin. We are free to accept or reject that offer. By accepting it, we accept God’s gift. By rejecting it, we reject God’s gift. God gives us the free choice to accept or reject His offer, and He gives us an entire lifetime to make our decision. A lifetime can be long or short. None of us is guaranteed that we will live another day in this mortal realm, nor can all the money in the world buy us a single day of life. I think that this variable lifespan is part of God’s plan. It puts each of us to the test. I think of it like a Dutch auction. You’ve got to get your bid in, because if you wait too long, you could be out and it will be too late. Thus, while we are given time to make our choice, we are incentivized to make our choice without undue delay.

Please do not interpret this post as in any way disparaging the views of atheists or others who do not share my views. This post is not meant to be insulting or provocative to anyone. So, if by asking this question, I have insulted you in any way, please accept my heartfelt apologies. Any insult is wholly unintentional. I am genuinely interested in this important question, and I would be very interested to hear your views. In fact, I am particularly interested in the views of those whose beliefs differ from mine.

Also, I would like to humbly request that this thread not be turned into yet another snark-fest between atheists and theists over whether God exists. I would much rather have a serious discussion of life and its meaning and purpose.

Thank you for your time and your input.

- Zebedeo

[peace13]

1. Thanks for this.

Congratulations on your 1000th. Peace and love to you, Kim

[Zebedeo]

8. Thanks, Kim n/t

*

[patrice]

2. Life is its own meaning. It doesn't need anything beyond the fact

of itself.

Don't mistake words for the real Event that words only point to.

On Edit: Sorry, I was being crabby. You post a sincere question.

Every choice one makes, and all consequent behaviors, affect the Event in which all of us find ourselves. The effects of our choices/behaviors may be good and/or bad. Choices/behaviors are not totally responsible for the effect; whether and the degree to which a result is good and/or bad is only partially the result of choice/behavior. There are many other factors. The surest way to gaurantee the highest chance of goodness resulting from one's choices/behavior is in service to others.

[Zebedeo]

16. I agree with your point about service to others

Plus, it is its own reward. When you help someone who needs it, you feel good. I believe that the joy that you feel when you help another is a gift from God. It is no coincidence that God told us to love one another. He knows that, weak and puny though we are, if we do that, we will learn to become more like Him.

[cyborg_jim]

3. Very well then

It is possible that some of you will express the opinion that life has no meaning at all; that our existence in the universe is nothing more than an accident caused by random processes. I do not share that opinion, but I would be interested in hearing why you hold that opinion,

I have no reason to hold a contrary opinion. It can only be an inflated sense of self-importance that leads us to believe we are important in the grand scheme of things. We are not. We are tiny. Evoman demonstrated this adequately recently.

and how that opinion informs your actions in day to day life – if indeed it does at all.

I do what I do because I am human. In the end such knowledge won't fundamentally change *what* I am. I don't really believe that claims of divine knowledge really changes those who hold those beliefs either. That ties into the illusion that we are consciously free to choose what we do when we are barraged by many subtle forces from within and without. That is the crux of the disparity between belief and action.

This material world involves amazing goodness and unfathomable evil, and everything in between. More than that, we as individual moral actors, have the ability to contribute to the goodness, or to contribute to the evil. There are millions of opportunities for human souls to do what is right, or to do what is wrong. To me, it is evident that humans are the only mortal organisms who have these opportunities. A penguin is not “good” when she helps a fellow penguin raise her young, any more than she is “evil” when she kills and eats a fish. Animals just do what they do. Humans, on the other hand, can choose to do good or evil.

I do not concur. Reasoning about our behaviour and our actions may be the unique aspect - but in the end our behaviour is not controlled by any less fundamental mechanisms than that of any other social animal. We have selfish desires and selfless desires - there is an inherent conflict in doing what is good for us and what is good for society that drives ethical conflicts. This is not because there is inherent good and evil but because the social strategy may enable us to all survive but the gene is still selfish.

And that is just the beginning of the issue - we are not all born equal despite rhetoric to the contrary.

I think that one of the purposes of life is to give each of us the opportunity to choose whether to do good or to do evil.

That is not a purpose - it is just a consequence of living as a social animal.

Evil and good are not absolutes - they swim in a pool of choices and consequences which are unknown. The only certainly evil outcome is for us to all die - we become a failed species. Anything else is up for grabs.

[Zebedeo]

5. Thank you

for sharing your perspective. :)

[Goblinmonger]

4. Congratulations on 1000

I will focus on just one aspect of your post and give my reaction. It relates to a very significant event in my progress into atheism which I have mentioned before in here.

"that our existence in the universe is nothing more than an accident caused by random processes"

I very much share Dawkins thoughts on this. We are not here because of randomness unless you count the initial "big bang" or whatever the initial creation was. Beyond that, everything that follows and leads to us is very much not random. We are here because the biology was exactly right for us to be here. Exactly right. Change a couple very minor things in ultra-minor ways and we would not exist.

Because of that, the "miracle" of our existance is no more significant nor no more splendid than any "lesser" animal, any mountain, or any stream. One of the points when I knew for sure I was an atheist was when my wife and I were white water rafting down the Colorado river the summer before we both went to grad school. After passing through some nasty and exciting rapids, we hit a slow spot and had time to catch our breath and see what was around us. This is just a photo from google, but it is pretty close

Spending the time that I did there, I realized that I was nothing special. That equally spendid processes caused both me to be here as well as the beauty that surrounding me. I felt tiny and insigificant in the splendor that was the Rocky Mountains. And I felt fantastic. I knew that I was part of something fantastic that was science (and I was an English teacher headed to grad school to get a masters in Communication). I realized the irony then, as I do now, that many more people in the world experience similar events and see it as a very "god inspiring" moment. But, truly, it was the opposite for me. I know I am not doing my experience justice and I am not attaching any spritual signifigance to the event because I know it was just a time when all the things I had read and thought came together to make sense, but that was my "meaning of life" moment.

Some day Zeb, I want to meet you and buy you a drink (mine will be a black russian) and just shoot the shit with you (religion will be off limits) because I'm sure we'd have a good time. And then we can go out back to the alley and beat each other bloody with theology :evilgrin:

[Zebedeo]

6. Black and Tan, for me

and you're on. If I ever get up to Osh Kosh, I'll let you know. And I'm buying. :toast:

It is interesting that the very thing that inspires many to believe is what sent you in the opposite direction. I am fond of saying "If you don't believe in God, come to my farm and let me show you some things." To me, the beauty, the wonder, the amazing order of the universe makes it well-nigh impossible that it just came about by happenstance. You say: "We are here because the biology was exactly right for us to be here. Exactly right. Change a couple very minor things in ultra-minor ways and we would not exist." I agree. To me, that adds further weight to the argument for a Creator and design, because it shows that for it to happen by random chance is astronomically improbable. For you, it goes the other way. Oh, well.

[cyborg_jim]

7. Only if you insist that we were meant to be here

Otherwise one might reasonable argue that any creator made the universe for black holes - we're just an accident on the side.

[cosmik debris]

49. Nice!

We are no more than a fungus growing on a piece of food in the refrigerator of some black hole. And one day the black hole will open the fridge and decide to scrape off the mold and eat the food like a piece of smelly cheese.:thumbsup:

[NMMNG]

9. I won't get into the origins of life/Earth/the Cosmos/etc.

since to me they have nothing to do with the Meaning of Life.



I do believe life has meaning and purpose, though I think it has only that meaning people ascribe to it rather than some external meaning that needs to be sought. ( I think, sometimes, the "search for the MOL" leaves people frustrated and even depressed as it is often fruitless.)



For me, the basic meaning/purpose of my life is to:

Do what good I can for others and avoid harming others to the fullest extent possible.
Be a lifelong learner.
Seek always to improve myself.

[Zebedeo]

12. Those are

good goals, IMHO.

[NMMNG]

13. Thank you

:hi:

[razors edge]

10. I do not believe in a singular god.

It violates the laws of nature in itself. While no two things are identical, no one thing exists without a like.

That would mean more than one entity of inconceivable power, and any lesser god who presented it's self to man, would still be considered god as well.

If god is nothing more than the invisible force behind string theory, or whatever dissection and labeling of the building blocks we become capable of in the future, it becomes a force that is dedicated to structuring mass not consciousness. I see no conscious thought involved at this level that would have any concern of the actions taken by the mass it structures. It's propose is structure not reason.

If god is only of the ethereal and does not control all mass, god is not all controlling or even capable of constructing earth and life as we know it. This also makes god incapable of constructing a heaven or hell in any but a ethereal construct. Yet religion describes streets of gold, pits of fire etc.

If god is capable of omnipotence and controlling all things physical perceived by man, then god is responsible for all thought process that takes place, all bombs that explode, all children who are neglected and abused and every good and bad you can imagine. His responsibility for creating this construct and allowing the horrors is his alone, something he conceived first, and then permitted to take place in mass. Leaving mankind but an ant, choosing between subjecting other ants to god's magnifying glass, or not, and then judging them for action he invented.

Thats not a god, thats a devil.

[Zebedeo]

15. Your heading reminds me of a song

by Nick Cave and the Bad Seeds:

Into My Arms

I don't believe in an interventionist God
But I know darling that you do
But if I did I would kneel down and ask Him
Not to intervene when it came to you
Not to touch a hair on your head
To leave you as you are
And if He felt He had to direct you
Then direct you into my arms
Into my arms O Lord
Into my arms O Lord
Into my arms O Lord
Into my arms
And I don't believe in the existence of angels
But looking at you I wonder if that's true
But if I did I would summon them together
And ask them to watch over you
To each burn a candle for you
To make bright and clear your path
And to walk, like Christ, in grace and love
And guide you into my arms
Into my arms, O Lord
Into my arms, O Lord
Into my arms, O Lord
Into my arms
And I believe in Love
And I know that you do too
And I believe in some kind of path
That we can walk down, me and you
So keep your candle burning
And make her journey bright and pure
That she will keep returning
Always and evermore
Into my arms, O Lord
Into my arms, O Lord
Into my arms, O Lord
Into my arms

[razors edge]

20. Sorry, I never heard of them.

But if I'm wrong about it all I will be found burning in the pits hell with all those humans who lived for tens of thousands of years before the introduction of modern religion. Since they never had any idea of a singular god, guess he was on vacation.

[razors edge]

21. The whole thread reminds me

of a song too.

Rush, Freewill

There are those who think that life
Has nothing left to chance
With a host of holy horrors
To direct our aimless dance

A planet of playthings
We dance on the strings
Of powers we cannot perceive
The stars arent aligned ---
Or the gods are malign
Blame is better to give than receive

You can choose a ready guide
In some celestial voice
If you choose not to decide
You still have made a choice

You can choose from phantom fears
And kindness that can kill
I will choose a path thats clear
I will choose free will

There are those who think that theyve been dealt a losing hand
The cards were stacked against them ---
They werent born in lotus-land

All preordained
A prisoner in chains
A victim of venomous fate
Kicked in the face
You cant pray for a place
In heavens unearthly estate

Each of us
A cell of awareness
Imperfect and incomplete
Genetic blends
With uncertain ends
On a fortune hunt
Thats far too fleet...

[Random_Australian]

11. I'm going to be getting back to this in a while. Co-incidentally, I had already

set out to answer the question in-depth; I'm a fair way through and it is working well.

Here is the ubershort version:

1) Evolution. It's true. It's not half as random as most would have you believe.

2) There are more ways of storing information than genes, and different genes have different rates of change.

3) One of the ways in which you can set up an information interaction is through the transmission of social structures;

4) Elaboration on this means that behaviours which benefit many generations are to be seen as moral.

So there you go; by making a stable and happy society, you are bieng moral and following the meaning that is set down in life itself.

Proper proof of assertions is coming. I am bieng thorough so it is going to take me a little while. :)

P.S. Good topic choice! :)

[Zebedeo]

14. I look forward

to your fuller explication of this. I doubt that I will agree very much with you, but it will help me to understand your perspective. Thanks.

[Evoman]

17. I don't need to say too much.

I'm a biologist, I'm an animal, I'm a human being.....there is no god in me, no supernatural. To the larger part of the universe, I am a speck. To the smaller part, I am a giant.

Everything I think about our "purpose" was summed up in this post...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=214x113118

Now if you'll excuse me, I'm gonna go look at some porn :evilgrin:

[Zebedeo]

18. And yet in all that vastness,

we are the only living organisms that make moral choices - as far as we know. Maybe we are more unique than you suppose.

[cyborg_jim]

19. As I said before the presupposition that we make moral choices is a specal thing is not a given

Either way that doesn't mean the universe has to care about us any more or any less than due to any other quality we posses - be it two eyes, five fingers, the ability to sing a rousing tune, wage war, build triumphs of engineering, engage in banalities etc...

One can find uniqueness anywhere one would choose to look, be it our species or not. It doesn't really imply anything.

[Evoman]

24. And maybe we are not.

[charlie]

26. We're the only ones

who wears socks and underwear. As far as we know.

[Random_Australian]

27. Yes, but we know practically nothing.

Except the folks who built the CERN LHC. How humans ever built that beats the heck out of me.

:)

In other words, we've only one little planet to study.
In theory, anything capable of storing information in social structures over long periods of time should be able to transmit 'moral' and 'immoral' and 'wear socks'. (Limits excepted).

[Zebedeo]

29. Maybe, but for someone who

denies the existence of God because of lack of evidence, I would think that you would likewise deny the existence of extraterrestrial life because of the same reason.

IOW, unless and until evidence of extraterrestrial life emerges, you should have a lack of belief in extraterrestrial life.

Or was it nonhuman terrestrial life to which you were referring?

[Evoman]

33. You thought I meant extraterrestrials?

Hmmm...okay. Lets say I did mean extraterrestrials. Here..




Each of those dots is a GALAXY. And this is a TINY, infinitismal part of the universe.


The chances that there is life somewhere in one of those dots: Not impossible to imagine.

The chances that there is some being greater who controls all of those dots, and can crush them whenever he wants...well, lets just say that sounds a little less likely to me.

The chances that humans were made in a garden of eden, on a backwater planet, on ONE of those dots, which is now being blocked by an angel with a flame sword, and that the one who created them gives them about 65 years to decide where they end up for eterntity? Well...lets say thats darn well improbable.

[Zebedeo]

36. The vastness of the universe

strengthens my faith in God. It makes it harder to believe that it just "popped" into existence all on its own.

[Evoman]

40. Maybe it didn't.

That doesn't mean that there is a god involved. Thats why the easiest thing to do is ignore the question for the time being, and just admit you don't know. I have no idea how the universe came to be, and frankly Zeb, neither do you.

[Zebedeo]

47. To me, it means that

there is a source of creation that exists independently of the physical universe. This is necessarily so, because nothing in the universe could, as a matter of logic, have been responsible for the creation of the universe.

This source of creation that exists independently of the physical universe could be called by many names. "Wonderful counselor," "mighty God," "YHWH," "I am," etc. Or you could not call Him by any name.

[Evoman]

48. Okay, but you don't know that.

You just think you do. Maybe the physical universe created god, and then he just took credit for creation. Or maybe your just a figment of my imagination, and I am dreaming you. Hell, its even possible that I'm the creator, and I just forgot.

Hmmm..or maybe the universe is eternal, and it was never created.

Maybe its even possible that something can come from nothing.....or that nothing comes from something.

My head hurts..I need sleep.

Edit: Or get this...maybe there ARE GODS...a lady god, and a man god. And they had god sex...and the universe we know and love is just a..ahem... stain on their floor that they haven't cleaned up yet.

Oh god I need sleep.

[Random_Australian]

50. Quick question: Why would the beginning of time require an antecedant?

:)

Just wondering.

[Goblinmonger]

57. Hate to toss Dawkinsesque thought into this thread

but isn't that infinitely regressive? Who created the creator? And if you can live with the fact that there was a creator of the universe that was not created and has always been, then why can't you live with that thought as to the universe?

[Zebedeo]

62. Who created the creator?

No one. He is eternal and uncreated. That's what I believe. If you hypothesize a created Creator, that just leads to the question of who created the Creator, and then to who created the creator of the Creator, ad infinitum. So, there has to have been an eternally existing, uncreated Creator. It so happens that that is what the Bible teaches about the Christian God.

Why can't I live with the idea of an eternally existing, uncreated universe? Because it is inconsistent with observed reality. We can measure the age of the universe and determine that it has not always existed.

[kiahzero]

84. Not quite

We know it hasn't always existed in its current state. That's different than saying that the universe must have been created ex nihilo - in fact, saying that the universe was created ex nihilo is at odds with the Laws of Conservation, whereas saying that the universe has always existed, although in different states, is consistent with them.

[Imperialism Inc.]

68. There is a book you need to pick up.

God: The Failed Hypothesis. How Science Shows That God Does Not Exist by Victor Stenger. He addresses your argument and shows that you actually have your facts wrong. From the fact that we don't know for sure that there even was a creation event (the big bang theory says nothing of the sort), to the fact that all the positive and negative energy in the universe basically cancel out showing that nothing was really "created" in the first place. He shows pretty well that the arguments you use aren't valid and are based on a misunderstanding of what modern science says.

[Zebedeo]

72. LOL

"all the positive and negative energy in the universe basically cancel out showing that nothing was really "created" in the first place"

That's an argument that NOTHING exists - not that God does not exist.

I'm sorry, but that literally made me laugh out loud.

Thanks for your post, though. I don't mean to be disrespectful, but to suggest that the universe is "nothing" is such a nonstarter that it is not even worth discussing. If the universe is "nothing," then I guess we can't be talking about it, because we don't exist.

[cyborg_jim]

75. No it isn't

That's an argument that NOTHING exists - not that God does not exist.

No, it's an argument that the sum total of existence is nothing.

[Imperialism Inc.]

67. Which is fine but not terribly logical.

If humans are the raison d’être for the universe it really makes little to no sense to create such vastness and tuck them away in a nondescript corner of it. The size of the universe compared to us and our non-special position in it is a pretty good piece of evidence against the biblical god.

[Odin2005]

22. life has no inheirent meaning, we are just biological mahines. We must create our own meaning.

[toddaa]

23. A nihilist response

Thank you for blowing your 1,000th message bash in R/T with a very nice post. I'm not going near the human is the only moral animal, because while I believe you are very wrong about this, I don't remember where I read the article on primates that thoroughly demolishes your opinion. If I find it, I'll pass it along.

Anyway, I wanted to get to the heart of your post about life having meaning and purpose.

It doesn't.

You would think that's a bad thing. If I was in your shoes, and at one time in my life I was, the notion that life might possibly be meaningless and absurd terrified me. But over time, I have come to not just accept the sheer meaninglessness of life, but to actual be comforted by it. Let me explain why. I've never been perfect. On some occasions, I've even been downright beastly. Things that looking back on, I'm quite ashamed about. No different from you or anyone else, to be sure. However, I take solace in the fact that when I am dead and gone, very few people will remember the times when I screwed up and over time my contribution to the history of the universe will dwindle down to nil leaving no evidence of my transgressions. True, no one will remember the handful of times when I was a swell guy either, but I can live with that.

Death is the end, just as birth is the beginning. Now, you being a Christian and all, I suspect you don't put much stock in reincarnation. So I ask you this question. Before you were born, did you exist? Think about that and then think about after you die. There's the difference between you and I. I consider the nullification of my existence after death to be the same as before birth. The circle is complete. From nothingness I was born and to nothingness I will return.

So why be good at all? Or, for that matter, why not just be the biggest jerk I can possibly be. It's a common question that is asked of us godless heathens, but I'm always surprised why you cannot possibly see the most obvious reason why we don't behave as such. Because we are just like you.

Anyway, I'll save the Taoist lecture on good and evil being the same for your 2,000 post.

Hope I wasn't too snarky.

[Zebedeo]

25. Ashes to ashes,

dust to dust. Yeah, I get it. But is it just the physical body that returns to the earth, or the spirit as well?

"So I ask you this question. Before you were born, did you exist?"

My answer: I don't know for sure how that works, but I suspect that I had some existence prior to being born into this world. Some Jewish mystics believe in a hall of souls called the Guf. This was popularized in the entertaining Demi Moore movie "The Seventh Sign." I don't know whether there is a "Hall of Souls," but I believe that the Bible is the Word of God, and the Bible says that God said: "Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, and before you were born I consecrated you." Whether this means that I had a real existence as a soul before my body was biologically conceived, or whether it means that God simply knew me because with his omniscience He knew the future me("In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will," Eph. 1:11), I don't really know.

"Because we are just like you." Yes, you are just like me. On that, we agree. I will be the first to admit that I have done things for which I am ashamed, just as you say you have. To me, those things are "sin." You may call them by another name, but God gave both of us the innate sense of right and wrong, so that we would know when we are doing His will and when we are rebelling against His will. That is my take, no offense intended. When you said "Because we are just like you" I think you meant that you have an innate sense of right and wrong. I believe you. I have never been one to entertain the notion that unbelievers are immoral by reason of their unbelief. I think that when unbelievers do good, they are doing God's will, even if they do not realize it.

Thanks for your contribution to this thread.

[kiahzero]

85. On nihilism

http://xkcd.com/c167.html

[More Than A Feeling]

28. Meaning is something we come up with.

Life has no pre-existing meaning. Physical processes, including the physical process of life, happen because other physical processes happened before them. That's as close to "why" as you'll get from the universe itself.

We make meaning through relationships. That's what culture is. That's what the culture war is all about: Do we restrict ourselves to old ways of understanding ourselves and each other, ways influenced by unequal power structures and obsolete knowledge, because they are comfortable for those who promote them? Or do we move forward, and embrace new understandings that give equal respect to all the individuals and groups who have a stake in our society, regardless of their place in the old hierarchies, because that is what justice and social stability require?

That's the meaning of life I choose: that society embrace all its stakeholders equally, give everyone the chance to fulfill their potential, and don't let anyone fall behind permanently. That is what is required to promote relationships among ourselves, and that is what we must do. Because at the end of the day, all we have are each other.

On edit: I will also add that while society must be internally harmonious, it must also respect the limits and value of nature. Society cannot survive without a nurturing and sustainable environment.

[pa28]

30. Something to do with chaos and free will I think.

If you believe in God I think it's reasonable to think that God is perfection. Could God be so perfect that it can't conceive of the results of chaos on it's own? If we had a perfect universe with perfect beings who acted out God's will all the time what would be the point? God could simply reason through the whole thing without ever having to create it.

The universe is well ordered and yet it produced us. Irrational, self absorbed, destructive and yet those tendencies produce some interesting results and interesting people. The flip side is suffering, willful destruction and just plain evil. It's kind of a paradox but I think God is limited by it's own perfection. It compensates by creating a huge stage where the things it does not know are acted out for God's study. Or another way . . . I've always thought God could create the conditions where an artist is produced but not the painting itself and God is interested in the painting.

BTW, no organized religious practice. But you probably guessed that already.

:)

[Zebedeo]

31. Thank you for

sharing that very interesting perspective. Very thought provoking.

[cosmik debris]

32. I've never seen any reason to believe

That there is a meaning to life. Only by starting with the assumption that there is a meaning can you construct such fanciful daydreams. Try starting with the assumption that there is no meaning to life and see where it leads you.

Of course, both are unfounded assumptions, but in the absence of any evidence, I prefer the assumption that requires the fewest leaps of faith.

[Zebedeo]

34. I also prefer the assumption that requires the

least preposterous leaps of faith. To me, it is preposterous to imagine that the universe, with a mass of at least 25 billion galaxies, popped into existence on its own, with no cause, for no reason, and without any preexisting source of matter or energy, then expanded at an unfathomably fast rate and developed all of its complexity, including you, me, Shakespeare and all his writings, my car, and the computers we are using, just by random chance.

Nontheistic philosophies cannot account for these observed realities, and therefore, I think that it takes a greater leap of faith to hold a nontheistic view than it does to believe in God.

While you think I am starting with the assumption that there is a meaning, I think you are starting out with the opposite assumption.

Thanks for sharing your perspective.

[Evoman]

35. And it does not seem proposterious to you.

That some sort of super-being, with the ability to create 25 billion galaxies, popped into existence on its own, with not cause, for no reason, and without any prexisting source of matter or energy? If something came from nothing, it may as well be the universe.

[Zebedeo]

38. That's not what I believe.

Rather, I believe that God is eternal, and never popped into existence.

Indeed, I think that this conclusion is by far the most logical available. This is because if you hypothesized a God that popped into existence, you would have to explain what caused God to pop into existence. No, God must necessarily be eternal. That is the best hypothesis that fits the observed facts and makes logical sense.

[Evoman]

41. But you could say the same for the universe, right?

Maybe its just a series of eternal expansions and contractions. Its been there forever, and will be there forever.

[Zebedeo]

43. Eternal expansions and contractions

does not explain why it first started expanding (or contracting). Every action has a cause. What was the cause of this expansion and contraction?

[Evoman]

45. Its eternal.

It never STARTED expanding and contracting. ITs just always done it.

[Zebedeo]

60. But then, it appears,

that in order to avoid the conclusion that God exists, you have been forced to hypothesize an infinite number of universes, expanding and contracting for an infinite amount of time. Not only would I consider this to be a real stretch that violates Occam's Razor, because it is not the simplest explanation, but also, there is simply no evidence to support this hypothesis. What we observe about the physical universe is that it suddenly came into being some 13 or 14 billion years ago. There is no evidence that it existed previously or that there was some other universe that existed previously. The supposition that there could have been previous universes is without any foundation, and appears to be based on nothing more than the desire to avoid the conclusion that the universe was created by a Creator.

Furthermore, your hypothesis has other problems. We observe that the universe is undergoing accellerated expansion, not decellerating expansion. Thus, the available evidence points to the universe heading for heat death, not a Big Crunch.

Finally, if there were a Big Crunch (or as you hypothesize, an infinite number of Big Crunches), what is the cause of the infinite number of Big Bangs? A Big Crunch, if it ever occurred, should result in the universe converging on a point. What would cause that point to re-expand, defying the tremendous gravitational forces that caused it to crunch in the first place?

To me, it seems that a far simpler and more logical explanation is available. God created the heavens and the earth.

All of the above is JMHO.

[trotsky]

61. Or loops back on itself in time.

One universe, expands from a singularity, collapses back into itself, and starts over in time.

There's tons of reasonable explanations that don't have to involve a god.

Besides, your god could be any being with sufficiently advanced technology.

[Evoman]

66. Haha.

B.bu.but an eternally contracting and expanding universe is eternal (didn't you see that word in there?) by definition.

"But then, it appears, that in order to avoid the conclusion that God exists, you have been forced to hypothesize an infinite number of universes, expanding and contracting for an infinite amount of time."

Yeah? So? In order to avoid the conclusion that the universe exists eternally, you have been forced to hypothesize an infinite god thats been around for an infinite amount of time.

"Not only would I consider this to be a real stretch that violates Occam's Razor, because it is not the simplest explanation,"

I am saying that the universe is eternal. Your saying that a superbeing with superhuman intelligence who is capable of creating a universe is eternal. Which is simpler? Occams razor would cut you to pieces, good buddy. I am saying that the universe has been around forever. Your saying that the creator of the universe has been around forever. My explanation is simpler.

" but also, there is simply no evidence to support this hypothesis"

I don't need evidence, I have faith *giggle*

"What we observe about the physical universe is that it suddenly came into being some 13 or 14 billion years ago. There is no evidence that it existed previously or that there was some other universe that existed previously."

Thats cuz we didn't exist when it was contracting. Geez Zeb, keep up.

"The supposition that there could have been previous universes is without any foundation, and appears to be based on nothing more than the desire to avoid the conclusion that the universe was created by a Creator"

No, the supposition that there was a creator is without any foundation, and appears to be based on nothing more than the desire to avoid the conclusion that the universe was always around.


"Furthermore, your hypothesis has other problems. We observe that the universe is undergoing accellerated expansion, not decellerating expansion. Thus, the available evidence points to the universe heading for heat death, not a Big Crunch."

Yeah, so what...that means we are still in the expansion stage. Then the black matter will all bring it back and cause it too contract.


"Finally, if there were a Big Crunch (or as you hypothesize, an infinite number of Big Crunches), what is the cause of the infinite number of Big Bangs? A Big Crunch, if it ever occurred, should result in the universe converging on a point. What would cause that point to re-expand, defying the tremendous gravitational forces that caused it to crunch in the first place?"

Its all forces, baby. So get this...the universe RUSHES back to the convergence point. Inertia keeps pressing it together until its just a point...and then bam...just like when you try to stuff to much luggage in your bag, it pops back out. See...like when stars have too much gravity, then contract to a singularity right? So why can't the universe, which has kabillions more mass n' gravity. And then all that matter goes INTO the superuniverse black hole, and comes out the other side and expands into another universe..oh man this is gold *takes out notepad and writes things down*

"To me, it seems that a far simpler and more logical explanation is available. God created the heavens and the earth."

Hahahaha....yes, of course. Much simpler and more logical...a god that just suddenly builds a universe is simple and logical. Just tell me one thing...how in the heck did god survive the eternal expansions and contractions of the universe. Thats a lot of force.

[Random_Australian]

80. Ok, what do you mean cause? Does this not imply time? And did time

not start with the Big Bang?

[Zebedeo]

81. cause is the producer of an effect, result or consequence

Nothing occurs without a cause. The universe coming into existence occurred. Therefore, the universe came into existence as the result of a cause.

That cause could not logically have been anything in the universe or dependent on the universe, because if that were the case, the cause would not have been present until after the universe came into existence. Therefore, the cause was some power existing outside of and independent of the physical universe.

That cause had immense power and unfathomable intelligence -- the power and intelligence to create everything in the physical universe.

If you don't want to regard that cause as "God," you don't have to. But a rose by any other name would smell as sweet.

[Random_Australian]

83. To produce an effect implies non-simultaneity,

which implies time,

which means my question still stands - what makes you think the beginning of time requires an antecedant'?

It can't - that would break the non-contradiction axiom, which is at least as strong as what appears to be cause and effect.

[cyborg_jim]

53. God is not an explanation

You have merely arbitrarily decided that the universe was created and your chosen god was not. That is what we call special pleading - you wish to convince us that one thing logically must have been created because all things are created whilst also especially creating an exception that logically isn't created do to the creating.

I'm sorry but you can protest that this is the best hypothesis all day long but it is internally logically inconsistent and no amount of proclaiming otherwise is going to change that.

[More Than A Feeling]

37. How much of a leap of faith does it take to say: "I don't know"?

"I don't know" is the correct answer to the question: "Why did the universe happen?" Takes no faith at all, and doesn't require any supernatural entities. All it takes is discovering the means to find the knowledge that will enable us to come up with a good answer that's based in evidence, as opposed to a lack of evidence.

[Zebedeo]

39. I don't know

is a good answer.

[cosmik debris]

46. You've jumped to a conclusion

In fact I started with the assumption that there is no evidence. At least I have never seen any. And of course you added the word "preposterous" to my statement to help with your straw man argument. You cosmology is amusing, but it is no more than a straw man.

You also mix up "cause", "meaning", and "reason" to help confuse the issues. I don't see these terms as interchangeable.

Nontheistic views may not account for all observable realities, but nontheistic views don't make up unsupported fantasies to account for things that can't be immediately explained.

Bottom line: I don't know what you are talking about because you are too vague and you shifted your arguments to create the maximum number of straw man arguments.

[Zebedeo]

42. I'll be out of contact with my computer until Thursday afternoon

so if anyone is thinking I am rude for not answering their posts, please bear with me.

Thanks.

[Evoman]

44. bye zeb.

See you later.

[Random_Australian]

51. It already IS thursday afternoon. (Well, it is here, but I know what you mean)

:)

[varkam]

52. I don't have any of the answers. I wish I did.

I only have my own answers, which, oddly enough, is the meaning of life. The way I see things, life has no objective purpose. There is no reason that "we" are here. We are like Sisyphus - rolling the boulder up the hill only to have it roll back down again. We fight and we strife, we toil and we write. In ten million years, nothing that we're doing right now is going to matter. For those who are philosophically astute, that also means that nothing going on in ten million years matters now - which means that this is simply absurd. Which is what I take life to be - absurd.

There's a great scene in This is Spinal Tap in which one of the characters in the dressing room is making a huge deal over the platter of cold cuts; specifically that the bread is smaller than any of the cold cuts. It's all small bread, and we're all making a much bigger deal out of it than it deserves. Our lives are absurd because we have an innate inability to truly step back from our lives and realize that simple fact - that it's absurd.

So, if life is absurd, and has no objective point, then what do we do? Well that's what we're all figuring out, day by day, moment by moment. None of us have that answer on lock-down. If anyone approaches you to tell you that they do, then you should just wish them well and run as fast as you can in the other direction.

Life can, at least in my opinion, have subjective meaning. Some people want to build great buildings, others want to compose great music, others want to help others. Each of these meanings are just as valid as the other. They are all true simultaneously if it is given that life has no objective purpose.

I think meaning is also essential. Without it, we can't function (or at least not very well). When we have it, when we are striving for it, when we are living for it or dying for it, that's when we're at our best as a species, imo.

Just my .02.

[YankeyMCC]

54. Just a simple question heh?

;)

Well some of the earlier posts by GM, RA and BFSlayer have touched if not in my exact words ideas similar to mine.

We need no externally enforced meaning, we create our own meaning. We, as a race, matter because we care about each other. Our highest aspiration is to live together in such a way that as many people as possible, now and in future generations, are free to choose and pursue their desires without harming each other.

The natural (which may have some chaotic elements but this is not to say our current state is the result of random chance at all) universe has developed in such a way that resulted in us being here and being part of the larger world. That is why we are here, and as GM stated we are really no more or less important than the rest of the life on the planet. We are more important to each other of course but the moment we forget the rest of the natural world is here by the very same reasons we are here we get into trouble and start causing harm to others including other humans.

We appear to have a broader range and ability to make moral choices than the other animals and that means we have a greater responsibility to act morally - chose to do no harm and in fact assist others to achieve their goals while we pursue our own.

We also have the capacity to hold two contrary ideas at once. I too love to get out into the wild and get great comfort (really a sort of recharge for me) from the feeling of being just a small part of the greater natural universe. It is a sense of connectivity, a sense of the wonderfulness of all the other parts of the natural world, and just a general enjoyment of it all and my part in it all small as it may be. At the same time as holding this idea that we are just a small piece of a greater thing we also hold each other in great regard and are of Primary importance to each other. So we are small and great at the same time and both of these aspects give us a sense of meaning.

Aristotle is supposed to have said: "Where your talents and the world's needs cross, there lies your vocation."

To me this sums up what I'm trying to say in my bumbling layman way. When you can apply your skills to help met the needs of others you're doing good. When you make choices that helps others you're doing good. And that's the meaning of life for me.

[rasputin1952]

55. At this stage of my life I am comfortable w/stating that I don't know...

but that is not to say I am not working on an answer.

There are so many aspects to be looked at, some science related, some theologically related, some philosophically related...the list goes on, for as many minds as there are, just as many opinions can arise.

I was brought up Lutheran, I began to question some things I had been told and what I had read, hence my mind was opened for the quest to find out what was true and what was not. I readily admit that I don't comprehend some of the theories that come forward as they are mathematical formulas and I am left in the dust. I will also readily admit that I reject some theories on the implausibility of their basic tenets. I should say that I don't reject them out-of-hand, I do look into everything, but things like the Flat Earth Society, Hollow Earth Theory and quite a few others rarely need much more than a scan for me.

Most people like to think everything has a purpose, there is great comfort in that, but what if there really is no reason for life, that is a plausible scenario as well. I think there is a reason for life, but I have not yet found a truly satisfying answer.

Some people believe this planet has life because it was spontaneously generated through a series of events that brought forth amino acids which eventually became "us". Some people believe in various religious aspects had quite a bit to do w/life being generated in various time frames, and for various reasons by a deity(s). There are some who think that they are merely dreaming all of this, and nothing is real except their thoughts that "create" where they are and what they are doing...(this is one that I disregard btw, I like think that if this were true, I would have thought up a better scenario for the fantasy, I'd HAVE to smarter than this! FWIW, I also think that if I am a part of someone else's fantasy, whomever it is, he/she/it, is an asshole).

So the search goes on. I am content to believe that there are values we should all aspire to, but I also know that others have other values, and some of those values are detrimental to others. Greed, hypocrisy and ignorance are 3 that pop to mind that I consider far below what a "normal" value should be; but then again some people prefer ignorance over knowledge. Knowledge takes energy, ignorance requires none, most people are lazy when it comes to the intellectual aspects of their lives. It is far easier to be told what one should believe, than actually going out and looking for truth.

As I stated in the opening ot this diatribe, I am content to acknowledge that I don't know what the meaning of life is; (uh-oh, that makes me ignorant...;) ). But I am not ceasing the search to find out. I figure that somewhere in the future it will be found to be a combination of some currently accepted ideas, and some new ones that people come up with. That means that it can change at any time as knowledge is accrued and situations change. For today, it is true that Mercury orbits the sun, but at some time in the future, Mercury will be engulfed by a dying star, and it will have orbited the sun.... which makes this query a very long and somewhat arduous journey.

[cosmik debris]

56. A Rube Goldberg analogy

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rube_Goldberg_machine

You can see the purpose of a Rube Goldberg Machine ONLY when you see the final action of the machine. Since none of us can see the final action of the machine on which we are riding, it is impossible to know the purpose. And it pretty silly to assume that the intermediate steps are really the final purpose. There is always the possibility that the purpose is only the amusement of the creator(if there is one).

[Goblinmonger]

58. You watch

mythbusters, don't you? Admit it.

Nice analogy by the way. If we are a Rube Goldberg machine, I want to be one of those marbles that goes down a spiraly path.

[cosmik debris]

59. I don't have cable tv

My motto is "TV corrupts, Cable TV corrupts absolutely!"

[Ron Green]

63. I think your two examples are right on.

The opportunity to choose good to do good, and the lessons about how to go about it. However, I characterize "evil" as simply the absence of God, of Love if you will, due to the misunderstanding of the natures of Love and of Fear.

If God is eternal and infinite, which I believe, then our time- and space-bound existence on Earth is the opportunity to experience Fear, which is the apparent separation from God. The world full of people, by their choice to see Fear as real, give us the daily challenge to respond with our own Love.

For me, then, the "meaning of life" is to use this time to co-create a universe within myself that is true, that connects with others and resonates with their love, rather than maintaining a separate, and therefore false, identity.

[Zebedeo]

64. Thanks

I think your perspective is very thought-provoking.

[cosmik debris]

65. The Kurt Vonnegut response

Vonnegut tells the story of a little yeast critter who spends his whole life eating fructose, reproducing, shitting and farting. He died without ever discovering that his purpose in life was to make champagne.

[trotsky]

69. What I don't understand is this black-and-white, all-or-none thinking

that you and generally people from the fundie right have to engage in.

Either you believe in a god and therefore life has meaning, or you don't believe in god and life is "meaningless" and everything happened by "random chance."

That's a bullshit mischaracterization, a binary way of thinking, that really doesn't need comment. You need to grow and learn as an individual, Zeb, and understand that others don't need your myths to find meaning in their lives.

[Zebedeo]

73. Another attempt to demonize me?

I made no suggestion that life has no meaning for you, trotsky. Rather, I asked for your opinion on the meaning of life. See the difference?

If you'd rather not participate, that's fine. But if all you want to do is name-call, by lumping me in with the "fundie right" and calling my religious beliefs "myths," I don't see the point.

Have a nice day.

[cyborg_jim]

74. Last time I checked Christians tend to have deference to the Bible.

The Bible is full of mythology.

[trotsky]

77. Christian theologians call their beliefs "myths," Zeb.

There is nothing insulting about the term. Myths can be factually true, allegorically true, or various degrees of false.

I just wonder why you think that there can only be meaning to life with gods, but no meaning to life without them. Black-or-white. All-or-none.

[Zebedeo]

82. Then you won't mind if people call your beliefs myths, too.

Check that. You do mind. In fact, you are so prickly about it, you can't even stand it when people call your beliefs "beliefs." :eyes:

[cyborg_jim]

86. LOL

Please. It's a word. It has a meaning. Get over it.

[kwassa]

70. Love is the meaning of life.

All you need is love.

[Evoman]

71. What kind of love?

The love of a man for a woman, or the love of a man for a good cuban cigar?

[kwassa]

76. Eros, Philia, and Agape

[varkam]

78. Okay, another response.

I've actually been giving this more thought. I already replied to this thread, but I think I left something important out - namely, what I take the meaning of life to be (at least, insofar as my own life is concerned).

I recently read Frankl's Man's Search for Meaning. He was a psychiatrist who spent time in concentration camps as a prisoner. The basic premise of the book is that the meaning of life is finding purpose in suffering and that, most importantly, purpose can be found in even the most deplorable of conditions.

In the book was a quote from Nietzsche - "He who has a why to live for can bear with almost any how". That struck me as particularly profound, because it can be applied to so many different people across geographic locations, across events, and across time. In that sense, I think that if there is an objective meaning to life, it is simply that we each find our "why" for living, for struggling, for loving, and for suffering.

We all do all of those things. H Jackson Browne related that "Remember that everyone you meet has lost something, is afraid of something, and loves something". These are all things by which we define ourselves in one way or another, and as such we all have an incredible amount in common, regardless of the numerical details of our lives.

So while there might not be an objective meaning, I think we all try to make sense out of all of the love, fear, and suffering in our own lives to give ourselves purpose. In other words, I think those are the things that push us to our "why". The way I take the suffering in my own life is to try to turn it into something positive for others - that is the meaning that I ascribe to suffering and to my life.

Just my .02.

[WritingIsMyReligion]

79. I do not believe in an express meaning of life.

It's pretty much whatever you want it to be. There's no fate or destiny tying you down--what you do is what will happen.