If there were a god, but he/she/it was not the creator of the universe...

[More Than A Feeling]

what, if anything, would humankind owe that god?

The reason I ask is because I've seen the worship of God justified repeatedly by reference to God's role as the "creator" of humanity, and the universe as a whole.

It seems to me that if there was a non-creator god, humanity would not owe that being anything at all. In fact, we would likely treat it as a foreign nation, and establish diplomatic relations with it (after assuring ourselves of its peaceful intentions, although given the past portrayals of God, we might want to think about declaring it a rogue deity with weapons of mass destruction).

The bottom line is that it would not make sense to worship such a being, and in fact, it might be unwise. After all, how much could we get in trade agreements with France if we sang hymns and prayed to the French?

There is no reason to believe that this description of God that I have proposed in not absolutely accurate.

[Radical Activist]

1. Even if god did create the universe

why would we "owe" anything other than gratitude? If a contractor builds my house I'll pay for it, but I'm not going to dedicate the rest of my life to serving the designers and builders. There's no logic in that.

[Orrex]

12. Why would we even owe gratitude?

Conceiving the god/mortal relationship as one of generous giver and grateful receiver turns the whole thing into a crass transaction. I'm not "grateful" to my parents for conceiving me, nor do I expect my children to be grateful to me for bringing them into the world.

There are other, more appropriate methods of expressing appreciation for an act; gratitude is simply the most basic and mundane.


In any case, I'm with you on the choice not to spend your lifetime worshipping the contractor. That's a fine analogy IMO.

[jgraz]

36. Gratitude??? If I ever meet God, I'm gonna kick him in his metaphysical nuts

I mean, has there ever been a bigger fuckup than this universe of his?

[provis99]

2. Gnostic Christians believe the god that created the earth, or Demiurge, was evil

so why worship an evil god? Its like idolizing a parent who beats you everyday.

[NashVegas]

43. Gnostic Christians Were an Uptight Bunch

Who saw living in flesh as punishment for lord-knows-what.

[Tormenta]

3. If it doesn't quack like a duck,

it's not a duck.

[More Than A Feeling]

4. Are you saying that an entity that didn't create the universe wouldn't be a god?

If so, how do you know that?

[cyborg_jim]

21. He doesn't like the idea

That seems to be enough justification for most people around here.

Closed minded as they are.

[jerryme1]

5. George and Karl's God

I think all this justifies the notion of a "Republican" god.

[kurth]

6. Humanity will be gone in ~200-100,000 years

God will pick some other species' souls to save?

[unpossibles]

7. maybe those chimps with the spears....? n/t

[cosmik debris]

8. Sounds like a question for a Hindu

If I understand correctly, they believe that one god created the universe, and other gods have other jobs. But I might be wrong about that.

But really, even if your god didn't create the universe, the decision of whether or not to worship that god would depend on the current leverage that god might have. I know I would get busy really fast if I thought that there was a god about to send me to hell for eternity. But that's not gonna happen.

[More Than A Feeling]

9. Just be clear, it's not MY god, it's just an idea I've thought of.

I'm agnostic, which is to say I'm faithless, because I have no evidence that god exists, so what kind of a being would I have faith in? It doesn't make sense.

[cosmik debris]

11. I knew that

I was speaking rhetorically. I'm sorry I didn't make that clear.

[Evoman]

10. Humankind, even if he WAS the creater, owes NOTHING to a god.

You don't owe anything to somebody who "creates you" to serve his own needs. If anything, it would be god that owes his creations a good existence, and not the other way around. I think that if your hypothetical god did not create anything, than could he really be called a god? Would you call the Q continuum a pantheon of gods (for the Star Trek geeks)? I would probably treat that god the same way as Picard treats the Q...stay the fuck out of my way, please.

[zeemike]

13. God does not want, need or require worship

Jesus alluded to this when he said that the Sabbath was made for man not man for the sabbath.
The worship of a god is for the sake of mankind and it is them that need,want and sometimes require it.
God does not require payment of debt because that is a totally human concept that is irrelevant to a supreme being.
And in fact most of what you are saying is irrelevant to God and a purely human and mostly unenlightened thinking that makes god over in human terms and subject to human rules.

[More Than A Feeling]

14. How do you know all this about God?

You talk about thinking like a human as though that were a bad thing. Why would I think in any other way, given that I am human? Isn't what you are saying also human, since you are also human?

[zeemike]

16. Yes my thinking is human

But I know it and am aware of it's limitations.
but that does not mean that I cannot conceive of a thinking beyond my limitations.

[More Than A Feeling]

17. I still don't know how you know all that about God.

I don't know any of those things that you mentioned.

[papau]

15. Well said, zeemike, well said. :-)

:-)

[Evoman]

18. Well, obviously god needs SOMETHING, or he wouldn't have created the universe, would he?

In fact, in my conversation with god, he told me quite candidly that he created humans, because he got tired of torturing dinosaurs. He said "fuck it", killed them all with a meteor, and then tinkered with the little mammals. That lead to us. Now that are so many humans worshipping him, its increased his power. In fact, he told me that he no longer wants to be called god, but instead wants to be called "META-GOD!" (and you have to include the caps and the exclamation point, or you will be sent to hell. I'm not kidding, god will send you a plane ticket to Salt Lake City, Utah. And you have to go, because its non-refundable).

[More Than A Feeling]

19. Heh, meta-god, what a weakling!

The ULTRA-GOD is by far superior! He has the power to get refunds on non-refundable plane tickets. It's quite amazing to watch, really.

[Evoman]

20. Excuse me, but your ignorant.

You said that you didn't know what god wanted, because he doesn't talk to you. Well, he talks to me, and he told me that there won't be an ultra-god until his worshippers reach at least 8 million. He will then pupate, and emerge as the Grand-Ultra God. God told me to tell you that he finds your faith lacking, and that he is disappointed that you don't wash your hands after EVERY time you go to the bathroom. Washing your hand is not just for after "number 2" Heaven and Earth. Oh yeah..and your adopted, and your real dad sold insurance on the street. Deal with it.

[cosmik debris]

26. I'm still stuck with the old Beta-God

You remember him--secret source code, security problems, frequent crashes, and unpredictable results like Hurricane Katrina or spinal meningitis.

I'll be glad when I can upgrade to META-GOD, but I hear it requires some hardware changes (like a lobotomy). And I'm not sure that my software will run on META-GOD. Maybe I will just junk this system and upgrade to the A-mac. I hear it is better for porn and is less susceptible to power surges.

[cyborg_jim]

27. Nonsense

A-mac is for people who pride fashion over substance.

You want OPEN-GOD, it creates all, all create it.

[cosmik debris]

28. All I know is that I want a *-GOD

That doesn't require much processing power, has more outputs than inputs, and won't send me to the blue screen of death when I ask it to do two things at once. It would also be nice if *-God didn't require upgrades ever month or so.

[cyborg_jim]

29. All *-GOD are iterative

It is the nature of the beast.

What, you expect these things to do everything you want forever, from the beginning?

Just what do you think you're dealing with here?

[kiahzero]

37. Do you only create things you need?

You never create for the sheer joy of creation?

[cyborg_jim]

38. Joy. Hmm, seems like a need.

Joy has no context otherwise.

[kiahzero]

39. I don't see how that definition fits with the previous post

Evoman seemed to be saying that if there was a deity with the capacity to create the universe, the fact that the universe exists implies that that deity could not exist without the universe.

[Evoman]

42. Huh? Where did I say that?

Not that I believe that a deity could exist without the universe...I find it hard to imagine anything existing without a universe. It makes no sense. But anyhow, I suppose if god existed (which he/she doesn't), that he could live without the universe. Just like I could live without my family or gf...despite my need for family and loved ones. But the fact that he doesn't would be telling...

Like I've always said though, if god does exist, then I would feel sorry for him. The ultimate being, being god, would be the "creater of purpose"...ie...he creates something, and bestows upon it some sort of purpose. Whether it would be to worship him, or grow, or achieve universal *puke* conciousness, whatever. But god can not give himself a purpose, he can't give himself an ultimate reason for being. The best he can do is create the universe, and put people in it, so that he can pretend to himself that he has a reason to exist.

God is a sad, sad creature. Whats even sadder (or not, depending on who you are) is that god does not exist.

[kiahzero]

45. Am I reading too much into "needs?"

Well, obviously god needs SOMETHING, or he wouldn't have created the universe, would he?

[Evoman]

41. Its already been said, but....

Yes, I do create for sheer enjoyment. But in any capacity, it is a need....either to stifle boredom, or to make myself feel better. Any way you parse it, god has needs.

Anyhow, this is all quite irrelevant. God doesn't exist.

[moobu2]

22. You don’t,

nor can you possibly have any special knowledge of a gods thinking or character or any such thing. If there were a god, there would be a universal understanding of it’s nature and existence -there‘s obviously nothing like that. In other words, belief in it or knowledge of it’s wants, needs, existence, or anything, wouldn’t require a book, it wouldn’t require someone claiming to have some special knowledge or ability to know something that everyone else doesn’t know, or can’t know, and the belief in it wouldn’t be spread like a virus that can be traced back to it‘s geographical source. I know god’s a figment of peoples imagination, and I know many people who think the same thing, do you think we don’t have that special ability to know god? Or what?

You don’t have any special “god knowing” ability that everyone doesn’t have, do you? No you don’t, and no one else does either.

(this post is not meant to be rude in any way, how can the truth be rude anyway?)

[cyborg_jim]

24. The truth can be very rude in its starkness

But then it is how one reacts to this that marks the quality of a man.

[Tormenta]

30. Well now that's a silly question

Which is the truth, but it was rude of me to say it that way.

[muriel_volestrangler]

25. And yet the OT has him saying he is a "jealous God"

which would seem to mean God does want worship (strange that God confesses to a Deadly Sin, and that some fundamentalists want this confession repeated on courts. :shrug: )

[Meshuga]

23. It depends on the philosophy and tradition.

If the God is known to exist then it would depend on what this "Creator God" expects of us. If he/she/it expects us to be submissive and worship him/her/it then free will would not mean much because God would be like, "worship me and prosper or suffer the consequences." This "Creator God" would be better served if he/she/it made humans like robots who worships this creator deity by default.

The language in the liturgy in my tradition repeatedly references to God's role as the "creator" of humanity, and the universe as a whole as you pointed out. But that we are partners of God in this creation. In this philosophy it is God who provides the raw materials, but it is humans who "bring a successful product to the market."

In this tradition humans and God are equal partners and together face the problems that confront the world. The tradition says that God may have set the world in motion but we, just like parents who push their child on a merry-go-round and then jump on, share the ride together and whatever consequences it may bring.

The tradition also says that by being made in "God's image", we humans have reason and we have the intellect in order to make choices on whether we want to be responsible l'avdah ul'shomrah, "to work and to guard" the land. Not use the world as our playground but being responsible partners in the process of creation and its management. To shape the environment in a way that will protect and nurture life (to have dominion over or to "rule" the earth and all that moves on or is part of it). We must "rule" only as a means to protect and nurture life and not as an end in itself.

Note that I am using the word "tradition" rather than "belief" because people who follow this tradition have different beliefs (and even non-beliefs) but the teachings that come out of the tradition is what is important. For example, Humanistic Jews remove God from the picture but follow the ethical principles from the same tradition as the Jews who use "God" in their liturgy. But they have the same goal, similar means, but different language.

[zeemike]

31. Can I say the same thing in a different way?

God did not create us without a purpose. Our minds are a part of his mind and part of the universal consciousness that is God. Our experiences are his experiences as well.and as we gain in that experience and become more enlightened we come closer to the creator himself.
And life itself is like a river that flows back to it's source. life is continually being created from it's lowest form and evolves to it's highest and returns to the source in a continuous stream.

[More Than A Feeling]

33. Again, how do you know this? n/t

[zeemike]

40. It's ancient wisdom

That goes back before the recorded history of mankind.
It's source cannot be attributed to any one person but is a very big part of most mystical belief systems and is also referred to in the bible, but missed by most readers because the bible has been rendered meaningless by religious dogma.

[More Than A Feeling]

32. The OP was about a god who ISN'T a creator of the universe.

Any thoughts about the scenario where it is that type of god who exists, not a creator god?

[cyborg_jim]

34. To me it ain't much different to the whole creator god scenario

Until someone can actually say something about what it 'is' saying what it isn't doesn't clarify the matter.

[Meshuga]

35. My thoughts...

if worshipping this deity brings good health, a good harvest, prosperity, protection, justice, etc. to his/her/its followers then why shouldn't his followers worship him/her/it? If this god betrays his worshippers by becoming an unjust god then he/she/it is not worthy of their worship. The relation is over.

It's like a loving relationship. Both partners meet each other, get to know each other, like each other and set their expectations. If one partner betrays the other or don't meet the expectations then the relationship is in trouble.

It would be unwise to worship this deity if he/she/it has too many bad feedback from his worshippers. But if this deity is a newbie and has no feedback you may want to give the benefit of a doubt. If you sang hymns and prayed but did not get the relationship you wanted then you can choose to no longer worship this deadbeat. You take your business elsewhere.

[NashVegas]

44. There Are Many Gods Who Are Not Creators of the Universe

Because you capitalize God in the singular form, I can only assume you are asking about the god Jehovah. Because you further say, 'what if this god wasn't the creator,' I assume you're talking about Christ.

What we owe? Depends on whom you ask.

The Western world owes quite a bit. We've racked up some pretty good gains, from the standpoint of progress, since we gave ourselves Jesus as a spiritual pin cushion.

Everyone else, not so much.

[More Than A Feeling]

46. Actually...no, I wasn't.

I'm just asking how people would feel if the only god who existed didn't create the universe. I wasn't referring to Jesus (since Jesus is said to be co-equal with the father, all things made with him, without him nothing was made etc etc technically Jesus would also be a creator god, if you believe that Jesus=god, which is irrelevent for the purposes of this hypothetical)