"Our prayers are with you" - does that set your teeth on edge?

[ChairmanAgnostic]

Whenever we face a disaster, personal, local or especially involving small children, I have noticed a growing, disturbing and bewildering trend. People being interviewed on TV seem to be addicted to saying something pointless like "Our prayers are with you." or "We are praying for you." Not only the general public, but talking heads on cable news, and the pretty faces on evening news broadcasts are starting to say it too.

I find this offensive. First of all, there is no power of prayer. It simply does not exist. Perhaps, as a form of meditation, it might offer some minimal solace to the person falling to their knees and looking up to the holy clouds, but prayers have no impact to change any situation. It will not bring arrogant, pointy-headed mountain climbers back from their frozen graves. It will not bring back a besotted blond bimbo from Aruba. It will not maintain george Bush's health, and it will not provide Robert Gates with the ability to avoid scrutiny and control by Darth Cheney. I submit that prayers are a waste of time.

There is an argument to be made that prayers are worse than a simply a waste of time, that prayer actually causes harm. You would think after repeated failures, rational beings would start to question the effectiveness of prayer and look for other answers to such puzzling questions, such as, why is weather like it is, what are planets made of and why don’t they stay in one spot in the sky, what is this quantum gravity or chromo-dynamics stuff supposed to mean, what is genetic farming all about, or even all about what hominid conception through sexual activity entails.

You would also be wrong. Instead of actually trying to figure out and solve problems, using their brains, experience and free thought, they created yet another counterpart to both Faith and Prayer, something conveniently called “god’s will.”

Rather than blame their own blatant, willful ignorance, human error, or downright ineffable stupidity for the failure of prayer to work as requested, christians created this handy device that is to be applied generously should one of their Prayers fail. It works something like this: Let’s say that some known danger looms ahead. Rather than act rationally, study the danger and apply humanity’s great body of knowledge in an effort to find a solution, the american christian approach calls for them to get on their knees and pray. If their prayer fails, (as it does, almost every single time) it is excused away by applying a concept called “god’s will.”

Should you decide to try “thinking” this concept through, you will find that the christians actually created a pretty nifty system. Not only does it absolve the believer from even a hint of personal responsibility, it actually interferes with their future learning, education and maturity. This stupid faith-based activity called prayer offers your christian cult leader with a huge amount of control over his flock, without ever having to say, “I’m sorry.” Instead, all they have to say, “It was god’s will.”

Some of you might begin to wonder, though, just how long can the christians keep beating their heads against this brick wall before they realize that their entire system is fatally flawed? In response, just think about Jericho.

Even worse, when sick children are involved, the power of prayer as a replacement for real medical treatment constitutes child abuse. God's will has nothing to do with infected spleens, juvie diabetes, viruses, andbacteriologicall infections.

religions kill. Prayer is dangerous. By replacing rational thinking and problem solving, engaging in prayer paves the way to "hell". should such a place exist.

[Drum]

1. I say "Thanks, but I'm still gonna think of a plan." nt

[Az]

3. heh...

My knee jerk response to "I'll pray for you" is "Thanks, I'll think for you." I don't use it so much these days as its a bit more confrontational than I think the original comment deserves. Typically I just say "That doesn't work on me". It leaves them confused which is probably better than angry.

[Richardo]

8. OK that's pretty funny.

[nini]

2. Same thing as saying I'm sending good vibes or strength

Take it for how it is meant.. wishing someone well in getting through a tough time.

Unless of course you'd rather hear something negative about the situation.

btw: great flamebait. The popcorn is popping and ready to be served :popcorn:

[Deja Q]

6. I am compelled to agree. After all,

it is possible to pray and think at the same time.

[ChairmanAgnostic]

13. Hmmm. I wonder if there is a sex-based difference between

males and females on this issue. Some communications studies have parsed and studied the way men communicate with men, men with women, women with men and women with women. There are measurable structural and topical differences between casual M-M discussions and casual F-F discussions. This is an overgeneralization, but women actually do "share" topics. On the other hand, defining a problem and finding a solution seems to occur more in M-M communications.

Perhaps saying "My prayers are with you" is a feminine trait, an effort to "share" the pain, rather than aim for a solution. pass the salt, please.

[Orrex]

20. Sure you'd think that way, being a dude and all

Just kidding--I think that you've proposed an interesting question.

[nini]

22. well, this broad thinks you can do both

:D Share the pain and help with the solution.




here's the salt! :-)

[ChairmanAgnostic]

26. have you noticed differences in your

speach habits when communicating only with women, versus a mixed group, or to a male only group?

Even in schoolroom settings, there are differences between all girl classes, all boy classes and mixed classes.

[nini]

31. Me? no... I'm a hardass and act the same around all kinds of folks.

BUT I have friends that do what you're talking about. They're voices get this sweetness to them that makes me want to puke.

[Pirate Smile]

25. Yes, that is the source of many fights.

Women tell their boyfriends or husbands about issues, problems, or frustrations they are having at work or just in life.

The hubby or BF thinks they are supposed to solve it which just pisses the woman off. She is just trying to communicate, sharing what is going on in her life.

Ahhh, the birds and the bees.

[ulysses]

86. that was my thought

Unless of course you'd rather hear something negative about the situation.

"Our prayers are with you" seems preferrable to "Sucks to be you, hoser", but maybe that's just me.

[Orrex]

4. I really dislike it

Everyone who knows me well enough to be in a position to "pray for me" knows that I'm atheist, so any offer to pray for me is tantamount to saying "my beliefs are correct and your atheism is wrong." If they still want to pray for me without announcing it, that's fine, but it makes no difference to me one way or the other.

I would greatly prefer the secular "you're in my thoughts" or something similar, if they absolutely feel that they must make some statement of spiritual support.

I know that no offense is intended, but simply to assume that prayer is desired or appreciated is to demonstrate a real lack of consideration.

[nini]

10. If the person knows you're an atheist I agree with you

If they don't then they're trying to be supportive - but it sounds like you realize that.

Perhaps if we all default to the 'you're in my thoughts' it would be safer all around. I'll remember that!

[jgraz]

5. Another way of saying: "Don't expect me to help"

It's the easiest out in the world. Don't expend any effort, just mumble a few words to your chosen deity and you're absolved of all responsibility.

[stillcool]

28. exactly...

run, don't walk!!

[Richardo]

7. Some subscribe to "God helps those who help themselves"

The religious way of saying 'luck favors the prepared' and like that.

As for hearing that from others, why not just accept it as someone having positive thoughts about you? It does no harm.

[texastoast]

12. Actually,

Ben Franklin said that.

[Orrex]

17. I think that it predates Ben

By about 2,200 years, back to Aesop!

But it bears repeating, even if it's applied only metaphorically, rather than as a statement of belief.

[texastoast]

27. Ooopsie

And Aesop (gods). Thanks!

[Richardo]

18. Your point being?

[texastoast]

29. Not a very big one

Other than I believe I read that 70% or so of Christians thought it from the Bible.

[jgraz]

32. In a statistical sense, it's hard to argue that prayer does no harm

On the whole, do you think people are more or less likely to take direct action if they believe in prayer? If I have a strong belief that there is an all-powerful being who can hear my thoughts and is willing to act on them, would I be more likely to ask him for help or one of my friends or neighbors?

Didn't Bush ask his "higher father" for guidance before he invaded Iraq? That certainly turned out well for all involved.

[Richardo]

36. It depends on the person, of course...

...in my previous post I said that many subscribe to God helps those, etc etc.



As for Bush, he was covering his ass for a decision he already made, and you know it. ("If you agree with me, O Lord, do NOT give me a sign. Thanks.")


But back to the OP, I don't get taking offense at what is usually a good-faith (ahem) effort to communicate something positive. Would you take offense if those thoughts weren't Christian? If a tribal elder who had polytheistic beliefs said he would consult with the sun god about your problems, would that offend you? If so, why? It's just one human's way of expressing concern for your plight. :shrug:

[jgraz]

39. That's why I said 'statistically'

As in it tends to do more harm on the whole.

As for Bush -- even granting your point -- don't you think it was harmful to society that he had this ready-made excuse for his actions? An excuse that he knew most of his base would lap up like hungry dogs?

[texastoast]

92. It's kind of like

Guns don't kill people--people kill people.

Prayer doesn't hurt anyone unless someone is using the concept of prayer to manipulate others. And yes, it was very harmful the way Bush used prayer to manipulate the masses. I think a bunch of them woke up a little, given the results of our last election.

[applegrove]

9. They are just expressing sympathy.. in their own way. Take the sympathy.

They mean it. Why you would take it any other way..well I guess that is your choice. But please remember that being religious is a very human way to be. There are genes for that. It is an expression of who they are..why it came out of their mouth..not yours.

[Orrex]

16. delete -- replied in the wrong place.

Oops!

[EvolveOrConvolve]

88. Often however, the words come out with very little meaning behind them

One of my friends' mother lived outside New Orleans and lost her house to Katrina. My buddy, as he was preparing to leave for Louisiana (to volunteer), was told by something that "he was in their prayers." His response was "instead of wasting your breath praying, why don't you volunteer also and actually do something?" It was an offensive way of saying "we're thinkin' bout ya, but we don't want to actually do anything to help."

Often, the words have no meaning or feeling behind them, and they rarely are backed up with real action.

[texastoast]

11. You call it prayer

I call it focusing energy, and I have seen and been a beneficiary of healing power of focused energy. "Real medical treatment" did not work.

Though I agree with you that prayer (focused energy) doesn't work in all situations and is no substitute for human willfulness or the lack thereof, I know that it does have power. For me, it has little to do with religion and likely a lot to do with physics. It just might work out that thought is the smallest particle of all.

[jgraz]

34. The science is certainly against you on this one

Double-blind studies have shown no clinical effect from prayer or focused energy. I'm glad you got better from whatever was troubling you, but you cannot show in any meaningful way that your recovery was due to some supernatural action.

[texastoast]

45. Abraded corneas

Which I had had many, many times from wearing non-gas permeable hard contacts lenses. I had lots and lots and lots and lots and lots of experience with abraded corneas. Using visualization techniques, both corneas healed overnight instead of within 24 hours which had been my experience before. Period. I KNOW.

There are many things that science just hasn't caught up with yet. I don't pretend to know how to explain them other than that we are pretty primitive creatures and we have much to learn. But this thing with MY body, I know happened. It wasn't a matter of faith. I had a hard time not giggling at the beginning.

[Zhade]

55. Yes, you know - that your corneas healed.

You don't KNOW that prayer is why they healed.

If you knew, you'd be able to offer conclusive evidence for it. At best, you can suspect it.

But suspicion is not evidence.

[texastoast]

91. It is often said

that doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result is insanity.

I would have to apply this to believing. If you believe that "science" is infallible, yet applied "scientific" methods do not work over and over, then, well . . . .

I never said I prayed. I did not. I used visual techniques to which I hope someday science will catch up. I cannot explain why they worked. I KNOW that my eyes healed differently after focusing energy and thought toward healing them. Before using these methods, my eyes healed exactly the same, over and over.

Our bodies and brains are stunningly complex. Western medicine is slowing ferreting out their abilities. And, oddly enough, many ancient cultures were were able to manipulate these abilities long before "modern" Western medicine stepped in to quash their methods. We are slow. Christianity has made us even slower.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

53. Interesting

a scientist I know was citing studies to me about how prayer DOES work in a double blind study....when I see her again I'll ask for citations.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

66. I beg to differ

Please look here:

http://answers.google.com/answers/threadview?id=72734

Not all double blind studies have shown a clinical effect, but some have. The citation above includes links to many different studies, going both ways. I'd say that the study of whether there is a link between prayer and healing has not come to a definative conclusion about the matter.

[jgraz]

70. Tell you what -- you give me $10,000 and pray that I give it back :)

None of the "pro-prayer" links would work in the article you reference. Can anyone point me at a peer-reviewed clinical trial that had a statistically significant result in favor of prayer?

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

73. Why don't you find links?

I've spent some time looking, and now would like you to do the same.

[jgraz]

76. Because I'm absolutely uninterested in clinical trials on prayer

I'm assuming that if one actually worked it would be posted here 6 times a day. My claim that prayer doesn't work is like me making a claim that astrology or Ouija boards don't work. If someone disagrees with this, the onus is on them to prove to truth of their extraordinary claims.

[Realityhack]

103. Jgraz puts it bluntly...

but he is correct. The burden of providing at least some evidence is on the person making the extrodinary claim as we have all seen summaries of studies showing zero or even negative affect.

[Realityhack]

102. Umm...

Assuming there is no effect you would expect some of the studies to show an affect given that we are talking about statistical studies.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

52. I like your thoughts!

I have seen focused energy work in a rather dramatic way. Personally, I have used meditation to lower my blood pressure and to stay calm in stressful situations (OP to me was confusing meditation and prayer and didn't appear to see anything beneficial coming from either).

When there is something really bad happening to someone, yes, I pray (if I have permission), and then do something if there is something to do, be it extend monetary or physical help, or completing a task that needs to be done.

I have had Christians tell me that they hoped Jesus blessed me, that I was a good Christian, etc. I didn't take offense, but realized they were wishing me well or were making a compliment. I do try to see a situation from another's point of view, and will try and be sensitive to this matter of asking permission to pray for someone-I have tried to always ask forgiveness if they weren't interested-just kindly realize that if I ask, it is because I care and because I think it really does help.

[texastoast]

93. You can pray for me anytime

We all can use kind thoughts.

Meditation (focused thought) can help a myriad of health issues. I've lowered my heart rate that way, and got where I could do it pretty quickly. I'm not surprised you lowered your blood pressure. It works to get rid of headaches too.

[ecstatic]

96. I really agree with you here

I've always been a skeptical, logical person but I truly believe in the power of meditation/channeling energy/prayer--WHATEVER one wants to refer to it as. In many cases the desired result is not achieved, but it still can serve as a powerful coping tool, after all, in life we will not always get what we want. Oftentimes, it's for good reason that we do not get what we want.

[Lautremont]

14. I don't think anyone's ever said that to me.

Don't know a lot of prayboys. But if someone did, I'd probably just say "thanks." I might think "Whatevs," but if it was like a sincere wish for success, I guess I'd appreciate it too.

[jgraz]

35. "prayboys" -- snrk

:spray:

[Kare]

15. When some one says they are praying for you,

you tell them:

"Thanks and next time you have a cold I will
take some medicine for you."


:silly:

[TRYPHO]

19. Like when sportsmen thank God for their victory

All I can ever think of is that, by that sportsmans kindness and gratitude in Gods love, GOD must really HATE the opposing team for bringing them such humiliation and defeat.

So don't thank God for a victory, thank the other teams for having an off day, and hope they play better next season.

TRYPHO
edited for pathetic spelling error - but I've never used the EDIT facility, and I had no faith that it was real unless the theory was tested :-)

[ChairmanAgnostic]

21. try praying to the screen to edit itself.

That would a a great test to see if prayers ever work. Faith based editing. :)

[Az]

23. I had a prayer challenge on the net that ran for about 2-3 years

Basically I quoted the bible detailing the efficacy of prayer and what could be expected of it. Then I provided a photo of a toy called Darwin's Doggie (it was a wind up green fish with legs) sitting on top of my monitor. The challenge was simple. Pray to God to move the fish on its own. I received confirmation of many prayer attempts but the fish never moved unless I moved it myself.

[ChairmanAgnostic]

30. neat. What a surprise result, eh?

I could never start a post like that. My natural dislike of all things related to prayer would bubble up to the surface, and my cover would be exposed.

[jgraz]

42. How do you know God didn't move it when you weren't looking?

He could have flashed it instantaneously to Alpha Centauri and put it back while you were blinking.

[Az]

44. True enough

But that would seem to indicate that God is a silly bugger. I have no arguments against the Silly Bugger god.

[jgraz]

46. The Silly Bugger theory does explain a lot

I'd almost consider giving up atheism if there was a Church of the Silly Bugger I could join.

[TRYPHO]

33. What if I made a mistake on purpoose?

Would that count?

If that extra "o" dissapears it wasn't me :-))

TRYPHO

[jgraz]

37. whygodhatesbadtypists.com

[William769]

24. Oy vey!

[tularetom]

38. I'm afraid to ask what you think about

the "presidential prayer team". I don't have a link but you should visit their website if you want a good laugh. It isn't a parody site believe it or not.

[ChairmanAgnostic]

40. thanks. i will check it out.

I best put my tea and cognac down first, though.

[ChairmanAgnostic]

48. oh my gawd.

I just checked out that site. Honestly, I kept looking for the Onion logo, but seeing none, I pinched myself to make sure it was not a bad dream.

What is even harder to believe is that this group of people is seeking $$$ and actually GETTING IT!

[tularetom]

49. Ain't it hilarious?

I them I prayed for * to achieve sexual gratification with Condomsleezy Rice because he didn't appear to be doing so with pickles. I got no response. I think I'm off the team.

[Zhade]

41. Considering studies show prayer does nothing (or, in some cases, makes things worse)...

...it annoys me, in that it's a waste of time for them to pray, but I appreciate the desire to think positive thoughts for me.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

62. Some citations you may find interesting

It appears that the study of prayer and health is much more complicated than just there is no benefit and there is benefit:

http://www.science-spirit.org/article_detail.php?article_id=295

Several articles here; I'll quote a bit from all of them.

Health/Prayer Studies: Will they suffer from complications? Two prominent researchers question the future of prayer experiments
by Larry Dossey and Harold Koenig

Koenig, associate professor of psychiatry and medicine at Duke University in Durham, North Carolina, has serious reservations about studies that attempt to measure intercessory prayer—prayers prayed on behalf of others. “I’m afraid they’re leaving out some of God’s answers—all of the ‘no’ answers and many of the ‘yes’ answers delivered outside the study’s time frame,” says the founder and director of the Center for the Study of Religion/Spirituality and Health at Duke.

Dossey is concerned about another possible bias: religious intolerance. The executive editor of the peer-reviewed journal Alternative Therapies in Health and Medicine has encountered just enough prayer researchers zealous about their particular religion to wonder if personal beliefs skew their opinions. “If one believes the main source of healing is the god of one’s religion, these studies seem heretical and blasphemous,” says the former chief of staff of Medical City Dallas Hospital and former chairperson of the Mind/Body Interventions panel at the National Institutes of Health’s National Center Complementary and Alternative Medicine (NCCAM).

Experiments in intercessory prayer indicate its healing effects reach beyond the purview of any one religion.

by Larry Dossey

Still, some researchers insist prayer experiments are inherently flawed. Consider the criticisms of my friend Dr. Harold Koenig, whom I greatly admire. In “Pregnant on a Prayer” (Science & Spirit, January/February 2002), Dr. Koenig lambastes a triple-blind, controlled clinical trial that originated at Columbia University’s College of Physicians and Surgeons in New York involving prayer for women undergoing in-vitro fertilization (IVF) in Korea. Those women who received prayer from Christian prayer groups in North America and Australia had twice the pregnancy rate as the women not assigned prayer.

Double-blind studies, to be valid, must evaluate a phenomenon with a currently understood scientific explanation, according to Dr. Koenig. This view is puzzling. Double-blind medical studies have often revealed that something works before we have understood how it works. Take general anesthetics: We still don’t know how they work, but we do not consider studies of them unscientific because of this. Quantum physics, the most accurate science ever known, is awash in phenomena no less strange than the nonlocal, distant phenomena one observes in prayer experiments.

Intercessory prayer studies leave out God’s ‘no’ answers as well as the ‘yes’ answers that fall outside the study’s timeframe.

by Harold Koenig

So, I think it would be a lot clearer—from both scientific and theological point—if we simply call such studies experiments of human intention, and not confuse things by calling them “intercessory” prayer. Intercessory prayer suggests that you are interceding before someone else on behalf of another person, and the Western concept of God (on which interceding before a personal God has meaning) does not hold up well under such controlled experiments. Thus, to keep things clean, I think we ought to focus on whether human intention or Eastern meditative prayer has any non-local effects, and just leave a personal God out of it.

Looking for more interesting sites now.

[Zhade]

78. Yeah...not really convincing.

It's a rather biased self-interest that site is pushing.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

79. check out my other link

to google, for a viewpoint that is more atheist/believer. The link you are responding to was cited mainly to show that even amongst believers, such research is controversial.

[Zhade]

80. Er, what does "for a viewpoint that is more atheist/believer" mean?

I'm not following you.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

81. there are viewpoints

at the other citation that reflect religious thought and atheistic thought, rather than having it be a discussion of this type of research between two people who are believers.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

64. The problem right now is that

some say the experiments have been sloppy in their implementations.

A lot of good cited sources, both pro and con, about these types of studies-still haven't found one saying that prayer made things worse--

http://answers.google.com/answers/threadview?id=72734

Again, some snips:

Randomized, Controlled Trial of the Effects of Remote, Intercessory
Prayer on Outcomes in Patients Admitted to the Coronary Care Unit.
snipped to get more information-read the rest of the information at above link:
At the time of admission, patients were randomized to receive remote,
intercessory prayer (prayer group) or not (usual care group). The
first names of patients in the prayer group were given to a team of
outside intercessors who prayed for them daily for 4 weeks. Patients
were unaware that they were being prayed for, and the intercessors did
not know and never met the patients.

Conclusions: Remote, intercessory prayer was associated with lower
CCU course scores. This result suggests that prayer may be an
effective adjunct to standard medical care.”

http://www.nccc-online.org/caregivers_3.htm

In Editors correspondence dated June 26, 2000, Donald R. Hoover, PhD,
and Joseph B. Margolick, MD, PhD question the design and findings of
the above study.
http://archinte.ama-assn.org/issues/v160n12/ffull/ilt0626-13.html

Another study from the Department of Medicine, Beilinson Campus,
Rabin Medical Center, Petah-Tiqva Israel:
snip
Conclusions: Remote, retroactive intercessory prayer said for a group
is associated with a shorter stay in hospital and shorter duration of
fever in patients with a bloodstream infection and should be
considered for use in clinical practice.”

http://bmj.com/cgi/content/full/323/7327/1450?view=full&pmid=11751349

More than fifty 50 letters were sent to the Journal concerning the
above study.
http://bmj.com/cgi/eletters/323/7327/1450#18219

And so on. A lot of good information here.

[gaspee]

43. I get very offended

When people say this to me. My brother has been in ICU for over a month now, on life support, and every single time people say this to me, I want to haul off and hit them. Not that I would. I'm just pointing out that my very last nerve has been rubbed to the point I'm at.

And if one person tells me I should take it in the spirit that it's meant, I'll really be ready to scream.

Know what spirit it's meant, to me, as an atheist? You are negating *my* spiritual life by lumping my beliefs, wants and needs in with your own. period. And I don't give a damn if people think I'm militant because I feel that way.

And because I don't believe in your chosen gods, goddesses and other imaginary figures doesn't mean I don't have a spiritual life.

I am so sick of the damn priests and pastors coming in to visit as well.

I get *offended* at religion adicts throwing their religion in my face.

I never used to, but for the past six years, when the religionistas have held the power, they have done what all bullies do -- and I am not going to be quiet about it anymore.

[Zhade]

58. You have my fervent hope that your brother recovers and all goes well.

No wishful thinking from this fellow atheist - just hopes for his recovery, and hugs for you for being strong for him.

:hug:

[ChairmanAgnostic]

77. I second that e-motion.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

59. Sounds like you've been under a lot of stress

with your brother and all. Are you taking care of yourself? Getting enough rest, proper food, etc? If you're having trouble sleeping, could I suggest relaxation CDs? I know there are some that use tones to actually help your brain get from waking state to alpha and then theta and even delta states--states at which you can get some good relaxation.

One more thing--thank you for enlightening me on the fact that you have a spiritual life--did I read that correctly? I find that intriguing, and wish you well.

[Crunchy Frog]

47. I don't care for it when it comes from talking heads

but it seems perfectly normal and natural when it's the general public. I don't think there's anything particularly new about it either. It's a normal human response to certain kinds of situations, particularly ones where we feel powerless and helpless. It's something that you can say that may bring comfort to people in times of trouble.

I think it's possible to people to be hypersensitive, and read too much into shit. If someone says that their prayers are with someone, it doesn't necessarily mean that they're advocating the abandonment of rational solutions, conventional medicine, etc. Sometimes it's just a figure of speech or a social nicety.

Intolerance, not religion, is the real problem IMO. Let's not get carried away with our own brand of it. Let people be human for fuck's sake.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

54. Bravo!

Intolerance is, by one definition, the inability to see another's side to things, to "walk in their shoes". Having said that, I will try very hard to make sure I do not offend anyone who dislikes prayer by requesting the right to pray for them. I do hope that "thinking about you" or "you are in my thoughts" are phrases acceptible to all. (I will continue to ask permission to pray if I feel the person is a believer)

[rollopollo]

50. There is an implication

...in your post that people who have faith somehow excuse themselves from service by praying instead. The two are not mutually exclusive. Communities of faith, including the one I'm involved in, minister to the poor and needy. In fact, Churches across the country are one of the largest, if not the largest, provider of free services and food to the impoverished. Service is at the core of what it means to be Christian. Now not everyone follow that creed, but many do.

Last, for people who are sincere, I believe prayer does matter. It orients us towards other people, not ourselves. It allows us to expand our ability to empathize. Recently, a study was released that showed that Buddhists who mediate for more than an hour a day have increased blood flow to the parts of their brain responsible for happiness and compassion. It is as if the brain is a muscle that strengthens based on its use. Prayer falls along the same lines.

[Az]

51. Part of the problem here

Is that some people do think they are accomplishing something by praying. As Benjamin Franklin suggested more people have been saved by lighthouses than by prayer.

See the thing is the sense of accomplishment or achievement that prayer conveys. Its true that prayer and action are not mutually exclusive. But if you think you have done something by praying then it may dilute the impetus to actually do something helpful.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

57. Or it may be the impetus to actually do something

I know at least once in my life when I recieved a prayer request to help--and I had connections to a person who could actually help the individual in need. I prayed, and continue to pray, for this person, even after the physical matter of concern was resolved.

[Az]

61. Agreed

Prayer can be a way to focus one's throughts. It is a form of meditation. But the problem is that it is not taught as meditation consistantly. It really depends on the individual and what they believe prayer is. If they think something is changed externally by prayer then they may simply be wasting their time. If they use it as a means to commune with God (whether that god is an internal voice or an external entity) then it may accomplish something.

[ulysses]

87. one can't always do something particularly helpful.

:shrug:

[Lydia Leftcoast]

89. Right

I can't do anything concrete for the friend mentioned in post #82 below--I'd have to have professional skills that I lack in order to be of any help other than listening and nodding while he vents--but I and others can pray for him.

Most of the time, from what I've seen in various churches over the years, people will both pray for someone who is ill or grieving AND help out by doing chores or cooking for them.

[ulysses]

95. I used to spend a lot of time chatting online

in a cancer support group - helpless feeling, that one. I'm not big into prayer any more (as I imagine you figured out :) ) and so never told anyone that I was praying for them, but I understood the impulse when people did offer that to someone with a bad diagnosis.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

56. Welcome to DU!

I too have read about that study of Buddhist meditators. According to my doctor, meditation has been shown to change the brain, and has been used to help alleviate pain, etc.

As for those who think prayer is worthless-that is their world view. I know that the mind is powerful enough to actually make it so that you cannot see or experience something that you think is not there. Most atheists I've encountered tend to live in their head, with their brains. Nothing wrong with that-but realize that it does tend to lead to a particular world view.

[ChairmanAgnostic]

60. meditation can and does work. To the extent

that getting on your knees, praying to a make-believe creature is similar, than I agree that it has a potential benefit for the person doing the prayer. it has a snowball's chance in hell of making a plastic fish atop of computer screen move. unless your version of praying involves speaking and screaming in tongues (a la Borat) and violent shaking - which might cause a shift in the computer screen because of violent movement.

[rollopollo]

63. Thanks

Glad to be here and good to see we can exchange different views w/out personal animosity.

[Az]

65. There is an art to it

Especially considering we are discussing religion on a political forum... pretty sure our parents warned us about talking about either politics or religion.... and wearing clean underwear... there was definately something about clean underwear in there.

[jgraz]

71. So prayer helps the pray-er's mental state?

Then telling someone you'll pray for them is similar to telling someone I'll eat some spinach for you or I'll do 100 situps for you. You may be improving yourself but you have no evidence that you're helping anyone else.

While service may be important to some Christian sects, belief in the divinity of Jesus is (johnboltonvoice) the ONLY thing (/johnboltonvoice) at the core of what it means to be Christian. For every dollar you give to a Church program, some portion of it will be devoted to proseletyzing or preaching to the already converted. In other words, it will be completely wasted.

If you knew that the United Way was taking 30% of your contribution and burning it as an offering to Apollo, wouldn't you be pissed?

Prayer has a similar effect. You only waste time that could be better spent actually helping people. Or practicing music. Or watching TV.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

74. I believe you are making a generalization here

For every dollar you give to a Church program, some portion of it will be devoted to proseletyzing or preaching to the already converted. In other words, it will be completely wasted.

So you think the Friends Service Committee and the like are wasting their money?

Edited to add: Are you certain that every Christian group tries to convert? What about Unity?

[jgraz]

75. Are you telling me that there are Churches who don't fund any kind of worship whatsoever?

If you can give directly to a service organization associated with the church, then fine. Giving a non-earmarked donation to a church will insure that some of it is wasted on worship and/or preaching.

[rollopollo]

84. Mental State

What you call improving one's mental state, I described as becoming more compassionate, emphathetic, and caring about other people. Those aren't self-interested qualities. They put you in a better position to help the needy or treat people you interact with on a regular basis better.

In some cases, non-profits have a higher overhead than the churches' "overhead" of ministry. I volunteered for United Way in my area; they employed over twenty people and were essentially accomplishing the same thing our church group was, except our workers were almost all volunteers. One advantage to a church group is that many of the church members themselves are willing to contribute their time. If you don't want to give to a Church because you disagree with some of it spent on spreading the gospel, that is fine. But if it's an economic argument, it's not clear that even with religious expenditures, that churches can't do as much good or more than non-profits, given the latter's higher overhead.

[bryant69]

67. Your anti religious feelings aside, you can't expect

the world to go along with this.

Bryant

[ChairmanAgnostic]

68. true. a bit like arguing that the earth is round to the

"scientists" in the late 1480s who KNEW the earth was flat.

[jgraz]

72. You say "antireligious" like it's some kind of insult

You can call me that anytime.

[bryant69]

85. I don't see it as a positive thing

But I understand that mine is not the dominent view. It makes as much sense for me to get upset at normal day to day anti religious sentiment here at DUas it would for someone to really expect people to stop saying God Bless you or I'm praying for you in modern America.

Bryant

[ChairmanAgnostic]

98. modern America has more in common w. the Dark Ages now more than ever.

Crusades against muddle east leaders, faith based control over social plans, a growing military, refusal to negotiate with enemies.

[Danger Mouse]

69. I don't buy any of that..

'it was God's plan' or 'it was God's will' b.s., it's a lousy way to try to console someone, and is just going to make them hostile towards you. likewise, saying 'i'll pray for you is incredibly condescending considering that there are many people who aren't interested in having you pray for them...perhaps you'd be better served doing something more material to help them.
i pray for people occasionally, but only if they have asked to keep them (or a loved one) in my prayers...honestly, i would rather do my best to help them out here and now.
God helps those who helps themselves.
And whoever came up with the phrase 'knee mail' needs to be shot. UGh.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

82. Take it in the spirit in which it is intended

1. It's intended as a form of sympathy, in most cases. Unless they're saying, "I'm praying for your conversion," and not, "I'm praying that you'll have the strength to get through this rough spot," why are you getting all huffy to someone who merely wishes you well? There may literally be nothing concrete that they can do for you. For example, I have a friend who is involved in a personal situation that he will have to work out for himself. I can listen to his troubles and express an opinion, but I can't really DO anything about them. All I can do is pray and hope that he will make wise decisions.

2. The person saying it may not know that you're an atheist. They may come from a milieu where they don't know any admitted atheists. Growing up in Minneapolis, where until a few decades ago, almost everyone was Lutheran or Catholic, my grandmother used to compliment good deeds by saying, "That was a very Christian thing to do." She said that of the graduate school friends who helped me load up the truck to move back to Minneapolis, and looked puzzled when I laughed and told her that two of the people were atheists and one was Jewish.

Look at the intention and the actions, not the words.

Nearly forty years ago now, I heard this story from a young African-American student at the college I attended. He and a friend went out after a heavy snowstorm to earn some money shoveling snow. After they finished shoveling the walk of one elderly white woman who lived alone, she said, "Would you boys like to come in and have some cocoa and cookies?"

The friend looked as if he was ready to tell the old lady off, but the young man who told the story whispered to him, "She's an old lady who doesn't keep up with the times, but more important, she's asking us into her house."

Or, to put it another way, calling the young men "boys" may have seemed racist on the surface, but she was willing to have two unknown young black men come into her house, and that doesn't seem at all racist.

You don't have to believe in what the other person is doing to recognize the good wishes behind it. When my father was dying, a conservative Catholic friend of the family sent us a card saying that she was having masses said for him. Now my father was a Lutheran pastor, so this was a bit strange, but this friend had known my family for literally sixty years, and she knew that we weren't ever going to convert, but it was her way of expressing her concern, and we acknowledged it in that spirit.

Some Japanese friends gave me a good luck charm (o-mamori) from their local temple when I went into business for myself. I'm not Buddhist, but I knew that their feelings were genuine.

There's too little kindness in the world as it is. Don't reject kindness that is sent your way just because the person didn't use the right words.

[Meshuga]

90. I was taught that

By accustoming ourselves to uttering a prayer for someone we become better, more loving people. Praying motivates us to empathize with those who are suffering.

[texastoast]

94. That was just beautiful

And so loving. Some people are just not willing to be loved.

:hug:

[Trajan]

83. Even though I am atheist ....

to the point of anti-theism, I consider such a statement, if it is devoid of a passive-aggressive component, to be a simple comment of support ...

Even as a non-theist, I 'hope' that things and events work out positively in situations, and I express such feelings to those involved, and I presume offers of prayers, given sincerely, have the same motivation as my 'hopes' ....

Prayers offered because I am 'sinful', is another story ....

[Manifestor_of_Light]

97. No

Because 1) they are trying to say that they sympathize;
2)I don't want to argue. It's not worth it.
3)In the US when there are about five churches per block of different flavors, it's not a good idea to make your lack of belief public.

I say, "Thank you. I appreciate it."

The only safe place I've seen to admit you are not religious is the Unitarian-Universalist church, where being an atheist/agnostic/pagan/whatever is NOT a problem. They are no longer explicitly Christian.

[catbert836]

99. When I was back there in seminary school

there was a person there who made the proposition that one could petition the Lord with prayer.

Petition the Lord with prayer...

Petition the Lord with prayer...

YOU CANNOT PETITION THE LORD WITH PRAYER!


That's all I know on the subject.

[WoodrowFan]

100. quite often, yes

Quite often, yes, and I'm a believer! But sometimes it's said in such a snotty tone that you know it's really a "fuck you."

[TransitJohn]

101. I write Santa and ask for a solution for you!

</snark>....Also, howcome God won't answer my prayers to not have to pay for cigarettes anymore??

As to your question, yes it does, immensely.

[Lerkfish]

104. greatly depends on the speaker's sincerity.

if they are not being sincere, no matter who they are or what they say, its not helpful.

however, whether a person is a muslim or hindu or christian or shintoist, etc, and THEY believe prayer is powerful, and they sincerely are praying for your well-being, then take it in the spirit given as a gift of being an avocate to their deity on your behalf.

If the person is not religious but offers you kind thoughts, accept their compassion in the spirit given.

If a person sincerely is troubled by your plight, even if they cannot help you, accept their humanity in the spirit given.

If I have a visitor from a country that feels burping after a meal is a complement to the chef, do I accept that for what they meant, or do I filter it through my own culture and take it as a rude insult?

Seems to me if anyone, for any reason, from any point of view, wishes the best for you, that is a good thing.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

105. i don't argue with them

I see that they are trying to be supportive of me, so I don't make a big deal of it. The fact that I think what they are doing is useless has no bearing on my acquaintanceship of them. They are trying to tell me that they care about my situation in the context of their religion.