Democratic Underground Latest Greatest Lobby Journals Search Options Help Login
Google

The Bibe Against Itself

Printer-friendly format Printer-friendly format
Printer-friendly format Email this thread to a friend
Printer-friendly format Bookmark this thread
This topic is archived.
Home » Discuss » Topic Forums » Religion/Theology Donate to DU
 
Ian David Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-14-06 07:38 PM
Original message
The Bibe Against Itself
The Bible Against Itself is a witty and well-informed work of revisionist Bible scholarship, a courageous exercise in the deconstruction of Holy Writ and a healthy corrective to anyone who still thinks of the Bible as the revealed word of God.
— Jonathan Kirsch, author of The Harlot by the Side of the Road and A History of the End of the World

Before the Bible was the Bible it was a lot of little books written by many writers with many different viewpoints.

If you open up the Bible and read it straight through, you will notice two things that should not be true if it had been written as a coherent whole and with a single purpose. First, the Bible is quite repetitious; second, the Bible frequently seems to contradict itself. Readers have often ignored these contradictions, and apologists have long tried to reconcile them. Randel Helms chooses a third course — to understand the contradictions by looking at the cultural and historical factors that produced them. All books are written for or against some point of view, and the books of the Bible are no different. Bible book authors were often motivated to write because they wanted to challenge or correct those who had written before them. As Helms explains, “The Bible is a war-zone, and its authors are the combatants. Paul said of Peter, ‘I opposed him to his face, because he was clearly in the wrong (Gal. 2:11).’” Helms notes that Jeremiah condemned the entire religious establishment of his time — the very same people that other Bible authors held in highest esteem: “prophets and priests are frauds, every one of them” (Jer. 8:10). Luke felt the need to write another gospel even though “many writers have undertaken to draw up an account of the events” (Luke 1:1). Luke obviously felt that Mark’s gospel was filled with errors and edited it freely. Not even Mark’s account of the words of the dying Christ was left unaltered.

The Bible Against Itself reveals:

* how the author of Chronicles I & II white-washed earlier historical accounts of Saul, David, and Solomon
* how the Book of Ruth was written to challenge the growing racism of religious reformers of its time
* how every apocalyptic book in the Bible struggled to reinterpret some earlier failed Bible prophecy
* the war of “Wisdom” between religious teachings, pagan proverbs, and practical advice
* the centuries-long battle in the Bible between prophets and the Law of Moses, and even between prophets and prophecy itself
* how first and second century Christians interpreted the Hebrew Bible in a new way, to change it into a book that had “really” been written about Jesus
* Jesus of Nazareth’s philosophical conflicts with Jesus the son of Sirach
* the battle between James and Paul — and their followers — for control of first century Christianity.

As Helms concludes, “Before the sacred authors were declared sacred, they were fair game for attack or revision. Not without reason did John the Revelator threaten with ‘plagues’ anyone who ‘adds to’ or ‘takes away from the words of ’ his book (Rev. 22:18–19), for such was all too often the fate of the ‘ little books’ that eventually became our Bible.”

Dr. Randel Helms is a Bible scholar and professor of English at Arizona State University in Tempe, AZ. He is the author of Gospel Fictions and Who Wrote the Gospels?

More:
http://www.skeptic.com/eskeptic/06-12-13.html

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
jgraz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-14-06 07:47 PM
Response to Original message
1. That Bibe is one fucked-up book
:evilgrin:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
stevebreeze Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-14-06 08:13 PM
Response to Reply #1
4. Actually the Bible is good moral teaching, for the first century
The prohibitions on certain foods make some sense if you don't know for instance you need to cook the living daylights out of pork..... Keeping in mind there was no rifigeration.....

It told people how to be good citizens of the community. Reproduction was held as important to keep the tribe up to strength. Don't take stuff that belongs to others.

It just sucks to take it as literal truth seeing how a few things seem to have changed in the intervening centuries.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
okasha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-14-06 07:54 PM
Response to Original message
2. He's only about a hundred years late to the party.
n/t
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ayeshahaqqiqa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-14-06 07:56 PM
Response to Original message
3. Probably too late now,
but your subject line reads "Bibe" and not "Bible".

The Bible was, indeed, compiled from many small books which recorded stories from an earlier oral tradition. Copying and just remembering recitations is begging for errors.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Danger Mouse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-14-06 08:17 PM
Response to Original message
5. this book looks neat...
me wants to read =D
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Meshuga Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-14-06 08:17 PM
Response to Original message
6. I am currently reading "The Bible With Sources Revealed"
by Richard Elliot Friedman

This is his second book on the Documentary Hypothesis (http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_tora1.htm) which touches on the authorship of the first five books of the Hebrew Bible (OT) and how it was put together.

Pretty interesting stuff...

This book actually includes his own translation of the five books with the different font colors for each of its 4 possible authors (defined as J,E,D,P) and the addition by possible redactors (RJE who put J and E together as a book and R who finalized the Torah).

J and E were written at about the same time period but one from the perspective from the Northern Kingdom of Israel and the other in the perspective of the Southern Kingdom of Judea.

J and E were eventually combined into JE and P was written as a possible political alternative to JE. D is most of Deuteronomy.

You can read J by itself, E by itself, D by itself, and P by itself with this book and see how it flows in context and contradiction from one story to another, etc.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Stevepol Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-14-06 10:32 PM
Response to Original message
7. The Bible is undoubtedly a wonderful and wise book
full of tremendously memorable scenes and events and ideas.

It's the story of a whole people's growth and spiritual evolution and reading it can certainly help to make one wise and maybe more patient (reading parts of it is more than a little tedious). If a person reads it open-mindedly for him or herself, without the "aid" of those of ideological bias of one kind or another, it can lead to the gates of heaven.

But the greatest version of the Bible is the one you write yourself by means of your own life.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
TRYPHO Donating Member (299 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-16-06 07:40 PM
Response to Original message
8. I think "they" need to re-name the New Testament
I'm fed up with people calling the New Testament "The Bible". To me that title should be restricted to the Old Testament, and the NT can be referred to as The Gospels and other stories, or the Early Christian Texts or something, anything in fact, except "The Bible".

TRYPHO
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
bryant69 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-16-06 07:54 PM
Response to Reply #8
9. I don't understand your objection
The Bible refers to the Old Testement and the New Testament together, doesn't it?

Bryant
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
TRYPHO Donating Member (299 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-16-06 08:26 PM
Response to Reply #9
10. No to me. I don't recognise the NT as anything religous.
Without wishing to offend any delightful DUers of a Christian persuasion who have faith that the New Testament is based on the words, sayings and actions of a Jewish Leader of repute in the year dot, I take no account or reference from it.
As a Jew (and I can speak on this subject on behalf of my religion) "we" do not put ANY authority into the books gathered together as the New Testament. They are a fine body of work, but not religious, not holy, and not important to us religiously.

So when someone says they read about X, Y or Z in "The Bible" I think they mean the Old Testament, because that is all that The Bible is to me (and my fellow Jews) whereas they might be meaning the New Testament or the old, I can't be sure.

The phrase "The Bible" should only refer to the OT in my humble opinion.

TRYPHO
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
bryant69 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-16-06 08:35 PM
Response to Reply #10
11. I can see your point
But I think it's going to be an uphill struggle - since the initial offense is over a thousand years old at least.

Bryant
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
TRYPHO Donating Member (299 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-17-06 05:06 PM
Response to Reply #11
13. I'm prepared to wait :-)
I haven't got anything better to do for a while....


TRYPHO
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Meshuga Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-16-06 08:39 PM
Response to Reply #9
12. We Jews call it the Christian Bible
The Hebrew Bible (also known as the Tanach) is composed of the the Torah (Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy) plus Nevi'im (Prophets) and Ketuvim (Writings).

The Christian Bible consists of some form of Chistian translation of the Tanach (not the actual Tanach in the original Hebrew) with the New Testament. The translation of the Tanach is what Christians call "Old Testament".

I guess the New Testament should be called whatever Christians would like to call it since it's their book.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
TRYPHO Donating Member (299 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-17-06 05:17 PM
Response to Reply #12
14. Yes, except "The Bible"
MrWiggles wrote:
I guess the New Testament should be called whatever Christians would like to call it since it's their book.
--
We need to come up with a snazzy, exciting, hip, cool *alternate* name for them to use.

1. The Gospellation of Christ
2. Jesus the 1st
3. Nazaritish Lamentations
4. Forsaken Forsooth
5. Soothsayer smoothshayer
6. And in the end?
7. How to make friends and influence people in post-modern America?
8. When they learn to do as I say not say what I do, I'll return.
9. I did it all for you, Boobala.
10. My Mum said I was special.
11. If it aint broke, don't fix it - a lesson in religion and tolerance.
12. Greek tragedies in translation.

Enough, I've got childrens homework to do.

TRYPHO
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DU AdBot (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view 
this author's profile Click to add 
this author to your buddy list Click to add 
this author to your Ignore list Sun May 05th 2024, 03:48 AM
Response to Original message
Advertisements [?]
 Top

Home » Discuss » Topic Forums » Religion/Theology Donate to DU

Powered by DCForum+ Version 1.1 Copyright 1997-2002 DCScripts.com
Software has been extensively modified by the DU administrators


Important Notices: By participating on this discussion board, visitors agree to abide by the rules outlined on our Rules page. Messages posted on the Democratic Underground Discussion Forums are the opinions of the individuals who post them, and do not necessarily represent the opinions of Democratic Underground, LLC.

Home  |  Discussion Forums  |  Journals |  Store  |  Donate

About DU  |  Contact Us  |  Privacy Policy

Got a message for Democratic Underground? Click here to send us a message.

© 2001 - 2011 Democratic Underground, LLC