Europe sees us for what we've become.

[goldengreek]

http://www.cnn.com/2004/TECH/science/11/09/nuclear.eu.fusion.reut/index.html

The timing of this unilateral act on her part is NOT a coincidence. Europeans, the most powerful people on earth, are getting ready for a confrontation with the United States. Energy is their Achille's heel. You'll see that they also brought along friends: China and Russia.

[forgethell]

1. The Europeans are the most powerful

people on Earth? Hardeharhar!! They can't get there shit together at all. If they are the most powerful, why is the USA in Iraq. Why didn't they stop them.

Their economies are sluggish, their culture is crumbling. they can only define themselves in opposition to the United States. Not that they US doesn't need to be opposed, from time to time. But to define yourself that way.

Jeez!!

[bloom]

3. I wouldn't say that the USA has it's "shit together"

I don't think it would take all that much for us to come crashing down.

[forgethell]

11. well, we've have to see.

But that wasn't what I said. Whether the US has its act together is irrelevant to the European situation

[noiretextatique]

59. how so?

we've had one confirmed coup, and quite possibly another, with a good portion of our population firmly in support of those who steal elections and depend on partisan judges to bless them for it. we DO NOT have our "act together" at all.

[KAZ]

4. I may agree with some of your statements, but...

..their culture is crumbling? IMHO their "culture" is far more defined than ours. "Define themselves in opposition"? I'm not getting that either. They might be rallying around that point, as is the world, but I don't see that as their "definition" of themselves. Your statement seems rather Amero-centric, IMHO.

[forgethell]

13. Well, of course

it was amero-centric. Why shouldn't it be? I'm an American. Far more defined? What does that mean? All cultures are "defined". Perhaps you mean refined? But as multiculturalists we know that all cultures are equal. As for "defining themselves in opposidtion to America", well if you don't see it, you don't see it. Perhaps I'm wrong. But still, Europeans as the most powerful people on Earth? No way.

[Jasper 91]

5. Perhaps we had the sense to see that if we opposed Bush with force,

There would be WW3.

[goldengreek]

8. Exactly.

We've got maniacs controlling all three branches of government, they have no respect for laws or the will of the people, they're supported by hordes of religious fanatics, and they're sitting on top of a massive stockpile of WMD's.

This is a game of centimeters.

[forgethell]

14. What force would the Europeans

have to fight the USA with? They have lived under our protection for 60 years.

[aneerkoinos]

21. For 60 years

Europe was divided and occupied between two superpowers. One down, second to go. Protection my ass.

[forgethell]

39. Whatever you say n/t

[goldengreek]

28. That's true.

But during that time they developed a wonderful society, and the results are really paying off handsomely. There's no driving need for Europe to become a great military power. We can never attack them, and they can never attack another superpower. Everyone has nuclear weapons.

What force do they have? Plenty! They're our economic betters (if it weren't for our debt load our economy would have collapsed years ago), and with current trends they'll be our scientific betters within a decade. I say that not only because they now graduate more PhD's in science and engineering than us, but also because, as a direct result of Bush's belligerence, foreign scientists and students are staying away from American universities in droves. Europe also has a super-conductor super-collider coming online and it's going to drain off a lot of our physicists.

Remember: we needed German scientists to put a man on the moon.

[Cats Against Frist]

50. No shit -- they're going to eat our lunch on stem-cell research

unless some of the knuckedraggers over here can "loose" themselves of their hokey-pokey superstitions.

[xpat]

43. When Americans think of force

they think military. When Europeans think of force, they think economics and diplomacy.

Take a look at some statistics about the EU. Population, GDP, etc. Growth isn't great, but living standards are.

[bobbieinok]

57. economic....already the euro has gained a lot on the $$$$

plus, apparently Europe and the rest of the world are heavily invested in our stock market and other $$$$ markets.....if they decided to pull out, US would be in trouble

[goldengreek]

7. It's always a good idea...

...to do some opposition research.

http://www.salon.com/books/feature/2004/11/15/europe/index_np.html

These people can knock us on our ass. And as far as getting their shit together goes, they're doing that quite well. They have a common currency, the euro, and a common language.

English.

[forgethell]

15. A very interesting concept,

but it is only opinion. I can remember when Japan was going to knock us on our ass. Maybe in the future, but for now, the Europeans are NOT the most powerful people on Earth. Potential ability is only that.

Billy may grow up to be the fastest or strongest man in the world, but today he isonly a 6-year old boy. Europe has some grwoing up to do. Frankly, as as American, I would be more worried about China for the future.

[aneerkoinos]

22. What we mean by power

are different things. Power to what and how? EU's and US' approaches are very difficult, EU has passed the nation state face of "it's cool to be the toughest guy", been there, done that, really done that. EU's approach and goal is not rivalry and global supremacy but elder in the global village, leading, where leadership is needed, by power of best argument and by listening to the needs of others. Rule of law means that you can't rule unless you succumb to be ruled.

US defines power as force, EU as influence, and the goals are different. EU is more powerfull not only because of bigger economy, but because it has better society and has grown out, unlike US, from the destructive king of the hill games of previous centuries. Bush's America has become a relic, nighmere from the last millenium.

[forgethell]

27. Talking is always best,

when both parties are willing to talk, and both are engaged in honest negotiations. Unfortunately, there are many peoples who do not engage in honest negotiations, which they intend to fulfill.

There will always be a need for hard power, as there will always be bad people out there. Don't worry, though, the brutal Americans will still protect you.

America has the rule of law in its borders. But, there is no real international law. Because there is no authority that can enforce it. The UN is toothless without the USA. And should Anerica surrender sovereignty to a collection of despots such as Libya, Sudan, China, Pakistan, Iran, or the numerous petty tyrants of Africa? I don't think so.

That being so, Europe would probably get a lot better co-operation from the USA if they would cease their endless moralizing and denouncements of the USA, and see how they can meet the needs of the United States.

[aneerkoinos]

37. Hehe

>>>when both parties are willing to talk, and both are engaged in honest negotiations. Unfortunately, there are many peoples who do not engage in honest negotiations, which they intend to fulfill.<<<

How charmingly simplified. We are realistic and cynical about ourselves, thus even more so about others. But look at North Ireland, talking is the only way, talking as long as it takes. Economic and other forms of stick and carrot when suitable, and endless patience.

>>>There will always be a need for hard power, as there will always be bad people out there. Don't worry, though, the brutal Americans will still protect you.<<<

All people are capable of good and bad, those are contextual things. And that talk of "protecting us", if you are serious and not joking, you are more stupid than I thought. America does what it thinks is in it's national interest, and lately she's been defining those interests extremely egotistically and foolishly by neocons. Iraq is attempt to protect the failing petrodollar empire and thus direct attack against interests of EU and peoples of the Earth.

We KNOW you are not honest, you don't keep your promises, you're "bad people" by your own definition, but hey, we won't stop talking to you.

>>>That being so, Europe would probably get a lot better co-operation from the USA if they would cease their endless moralizing and denouncements of the USA, and see how they can meet the needs of the United States.<<<

Euro politicians are too polite to morally condemn, people like me need not be so diplomatic. When you go about your usual stupid and immoral business, why should I keep my mouth shut? I know it's like Chiraq said, there is no use to expect honest negotiations from the Regime of blatant liers, we've seen they are so imperial that they don't do paybacks. So why should we or anybody give a fuck about needs of United States? It's good that Bush won, he's the true face of America, Kerry could have fooled some. We smile at you and stay polite, but stab you in the back when we can do so without too much damage in the interconnected world. Because you fuck everybody openly without caring for the damage to others or even yourselves.

[forgethell]

40. Keep telling

yourself those fairy tales. By the way, personal comments are, well, discouraged on DU. but I don't care, because I just consider the source.

Stabbing in the back, which you admit Europe does, is the tactic of losers and cowards. It is not the honesty that we shsould expect from those who consider us our moral superiors. As you say, you don't care aout the needs of the USA. So we have to look out for ourselves, no?

European politicians are hardly polite, more like pompous blowhards who think words are better than actually doing anything. Look, I didn't vote for Bush, and I disapprove of his policies. But the USA owes nothing to Europe, and we should get as good as we give in international negotiations.

[aneerkoinos]

47. Cowardness

There is no greater cowardness than killing 100 000 Iraqis and counting, so that you could go on doing your petrodollar recycling and driving your SUVs bit longer, instead of doing what is necessary for you and the rest of mankind to survive.

In international negotiations Bush gives nothing and America keeps polluting and destroying the Earth, the Earth that belongs to all of us. US owes Europe nothing (well bunch of dollars, but who cares), but Americans owe the people of the Earth not to kill us all.

Tell me, what fairy tales I'm telling?

[Touchdown]

68. I think you need to read this book

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/images/1594200335/ref=dp_primary-product-display_0/002-7520969-7092845?%5Fencoding=UTF8&n=283155&s=books

They have already stopped the GE-Honeywell merger dead in it's tracks.
They proably will have a man on Mars before we do.
They are an economic market that dwarfs ours.
They own half of our country's most popular brands already. 7Up, Chrysler, Texaco, etc.
The EU has a fighting force of 600,000, not counting the individual member forces.
Their currrency may supplant the dollar for oil transactions
We are powerful because of borrowed money, they are largely debt free.
Their new GPS system will be more accurate, and extensive than the Pentagon's
Airbus and Nokia anyone?
They have twice the population we do, and 3 times the money. If they wanted to build a military machine unparalelled, it would take them 5 years. It only took Hitler 10. They would bankrupt us in that arms race if things got bellicose.

The EU is not the UN. Don't underestimate them.

[aneerkoinos]

69. Minor corrections

EU Rapid deployment force is 60 000, not 600 000. Most member states still have "conscript" armies, so defencive manpower is no problem. And plenty of tanks, fighter planes and other conventional stuff.

Debt free? Well that varies, Italy has about 120% of GDP :D. But they have different mindset from protestants, most of the Mediterranean economies are "informal". But EZ debt is under control, despite stability pact becoming questionable. EU has the biggest "overseas" trade volumes in the world, when Mexico and Canada are left out of US trade volumes. More trade with China than US from the beginning of this year, for example.

Greetings from the Nokialand, btw, it's too big corporation for a small country like Finland, talk about all eggs in the same basket. :D

[goldengreek]

29. You're wrong about Japan and Europe.

Japan cut five weeks out of her working year in the 90's and her population's growing slower than ours. Factor that in and you'll see Japan's economy outperformed America's in the 90's. During that time her productivity gains were superior to our own. Haven't you watched Lost in Translation or Kill Bill? Those people are rich as hell.

And with the addition of the new EU states, Europe's economy and population are larger than our own. Her industrial sector dwarfs ours, and there are seven EU countries with worker productivity per hour larger than America's. That includes France and Germany.

This means her industrial sector is not only larger, it's more advanced.

[Karenina]

66. "Europe has some grwoing up to do."

Well, doesnt that just say it all! :eyes:

[aneerkoinos]

10. Greeting from the most powerful!

Yep, we are! :) Soft power beats brutish power like Aikido beats boxers.

USA is in Iraq because it's stupid and has no other tools of power left than military. USA is in Iraq because it has allready lost, just like Soviet in Afganistan.

No, we euros do not define ourselves in opposition to US, even though we are becoming increasingly astonished by how barbarous you are. Here in post-modern Europe we understand that self-definition is ongoing process, and each of us has multitude of self-definitions.

Our economies do well enough, they are not just based on maximizing GNP growht by creative bookkeeping and Greenspin wizardy, and sacrificing everything for corporate profits. Besides many people here think that it's time to move from growth based economy to the next stage of cultural evolution, like, growing up, dude, you know, acting like adult and stuf. Sustainable economy.


I wonder, when will the eternal teenager accross the bond finally loose his virginity?

[forgethell]

18. Unfortunately soft

power, like talking and diplomacy, is helpless when hard power, like artillery and air power, is applied. Aikido may be a soft martial art, but it is a martial art. And a solid blow to the chin will take down just about anybody.

Funny, I was thinkg the Europeans should grow up, and start to take a little responsibility for their own defense. and as the roaring economies that they are, perhaps they should up their contributions to the UN.

As for barbarism, well we never had a Hitler, a Mussolini, a Lenin, a Stalin, a Tito, a Napoleon, a FRENCH revolution and a Terror. When we do get back with me.

But what, exactly, is the next stage of cultural evolution? I am actually rather curious.

[aneerkoinos]

20. Next stage

>>>power, like talking and diplomacy, is helpless when hard power, like artillery and air power, is applied. Aikido may be a soft martial art, but it is a martial art. And a solid blow to the chin will take down just about anybody.

Funny, I was thinkg the Europeans should grow up, and start to take a little responsibility for their own defense.<<<

Stupid militaristic bullshit. EU has plenty fist, nobody, not even US can threaten EU militarily, we can defend ourselves. And for the Neocon's sad attempt at becoming good old fashioned colonial power, well it's just sad, shooting your own leg, pity the collateral damage. No real threat to EU. With your military spending - who needs all that shit? - you are only bankrupting yourself and destroying your society. I don't see why anybody should brag about trying to follow the Soviet Union's footseps, but I guess with all your media & other indoctrination and little else to be proud about than your Mighty Army, go on, hold on to your preciouss delusions.

>>>and as the roaring economies that they are, perhaps they should up their contributions to the UN.<<<

Gladly, any time. Problem is, Europe has offered to do so but US refuses to drop it's share, which it uses to distort UN to fall in line with US policies.

>>>As for barbarism, well we never had a Hitler, a Mussolini, a Lenin, a Stalin, a Tito, a Napoleon, a FRENCH revolution and a Terror. When we do get back with me.<<<

For stupid Americans (not the only kind) history ends with WWII, of which they choose to forget who dropped the Bomb. FYI history didn't end and EU is successfull attempt to learn from history. One thing we learned is that trying to achieve cultural hegemony and spreading your social model through violence, any kind of violence, is not going to work. Dialogue based on mutual respect is better, there is allways something to learn for each side.

>>>But what, exactly, is the next stage of cultural evolution? I am actually rather curious.<<<

What I said. Sustainability, enviromental awareness, instead of eternal growth. It's just a small ball in space with limited resources. Better learn to live with the fact, if you wish to live and same for your offspring. I'm not saying EU is quite there yeat, on the next stage, but better prepared than most. US is the worst prepared, sorry to say.

[forgethell]

25. Well, then,

let's just agree to disagree without getting into any juvenile name-calling, which I have always thought was the sure sign of a losing argument.

Cheers, then

[Cats Against Frist]

51. Uh -- how very GOP of you to whip out the "rules of discourse"

fallacy -- Someone can call you names AND kick your ass in an argument, if they're smart -- which is exactly what your debating opponents are doing to you.

[goldengreek]

30. Oh!

But my friend we had slavery and our massacre of the Indians!

[forgethell]

41. So did the europeans.

Remember, to begin with, the Americans at that time were European colonists. The United States iniherited slavery from them. Plus they had slavery before, and also elsewhere. Did you ever study the history of the wonderful Belgian people in the Congo?

But we never had anything lile Hitler or Stalin, and they were much more recent.

[Cats Against Frist]

52. No, we have Lyddie England and the Neocons

The El Nino Famines, the Decimation of the Americas, Lynchings, tons of transgressions in Latin America. Our hands are not clean -- but you're right -- the European Imperialism in Africa is, perhaps, the bloodiest of all -- but it was all done by whites, in the name of Christ.

Let's see -- now what would that concept have in common with our idiot foreign policy, today?

And Hitler, Mao, Stalin et. al. were all totalitarians/authoritarians, which IS what the GOP is, despite the fact that they pretend that they're not. They're not America -- but they're our "wors-er half."

Same monster, different face. Same authoritarianism, different century.

[Pooka Fey]

36. Getting back to you about that American Fascist dictator

that you're bragging that we've never had...
Chimpy stole the election, systematically disenfranchised hundreds of thousands of minority voters in violation of the Voting Rights Act, lied to Congress & the people about WMD's, attacked a nation that posed no threat to the U.S. & had nothing to do with 9/11, has murdered (and I don't say killed because the invasion was in violation of every moral and international law there is) at least 100,000 innocent Iraqis, and is well on the way to installing a religious dictatorship where our constitutional government used to be............

And you're bragging that we never had a Hitler, Mussolini, etc.??? Wake up and smell the coffee...he's in the White House right now.

And stop making us Americans look like more of a bunch of assholes to our European friends than we already do. * has that covered really well.

[forgethell]

42. Concedeing all that,

he's still not in the league of Hitler, Stalin, etc. Neither in numbers killed, nor freedoms lost. Maybe someday, but not today.

[bunny planet]

44. Are you joking?

We've got Busholini and Darth Cheney, time you realized how the rest of the world sees our 'fearless leaders'. When they get done 'reorganizing' our country, and completely doing away with our system of 'checks and balances', 'freedom will be on the march', far away from our shores.

We've done so poorly in Iraq, the whole world knows we are living under a crushing deficit, the dollar is soon going to be worth shit (even Greenspan is worried) and our armed forces are stretched to the breaking point. We have lost stature in the world and all the bravado and jingoistic posturing isn't going to change that (So Abu Ghraib was a public relations success?!!!) Yes, we can still 'bomb people back to the stone-age' as the freepers like to boast, if that's your idea of power and strength. This bully mentality has gotten us so far, so fast, hasn't it? We are really headed down a dangerous road. All empires come to an end, because people loath the emperors, and eventually fight back.

When Europe had it's empires, they eventually paid the price for overreaching, starting with the fall of Rome. I must admit, their smugness in judging us is a bit disingenuous, given world history. The current crop of rising anti-semitism and anti-Arabism in Europe certainly does not give them the moral high ground they claim to have. The truth is, that no one country can claim the moral high ground. We all make mistakes and harbor prejudices, and commit human rights abuses, either currently or in our recent pasts.

We look to our leaders to admit mistakes and attempt to correct them, not blunder on with dangerous and disastrous policies. There is no such thing as 'catastrophic success' BTW, one of the particularly onerous 'Orwellian' terms our president likes to use.

America is no different, and we are going through a particularly bad phase of barbarism in the eyes of the world right now. Make no mistake, we all, as citizens, are responsible for what our government does in our name, this is why we must make our elected (selected)officials accountable and stop them before they do this again. Now is the time, not later, when it's too late.

All the instances you site of dictatorships, and totalitarianism, happened in countries where there was one party government, where dissent was not allowed and punished. What do you think we have here now? Wake up and smell the freedom fries. I love my country, but I don't believe in 'America, right or wrong'. We need to get our democracy back and fast before it becomes extinct. Stop badmounthing Europe, look in your own backyard.

Europeans, I would say to you, just in case you don't know, slightly less than half of Americans did not vote for this President, who was not even elected the first time he ran for office. Many of us, as you have read on this site, believe that this election, once again, was rife with fraud and disenfranchisement of the true will of the people. If we could prove it, that would be great, because I believe that the majority of the people did choose John Kerry on November 2nd. We will need to struggle long and hard to change our election system well before this next midterm election in 2006, otherwise hello dictatorship, goodbye democracy. With Republicans controlling every branch of government that will be a really difficult thing to do, they've designed it to be so. It's time for another American Revolution perhaps, freedom over tyranny.

Europe, Canada, if you care so much about democracy, as you say, why not see what ways you can help, rather than look down your noses at Americans and paint us all with the same broad brush, as religious fanatics and barbarians. We are for the most part, a good and decent people, and we are being abused, in great ways and small, except perhaps the obscenely rich and conservative, by our own government, which we feel increasingly powerless to change.

Stop judging, start helping.

[Pooka Fey]

45. Fantastic Post! Bravo, well put, and thank you.

[aneerkoinos]

48. How to help?

Tell me the ways! I don't write to this board because I hate you people. :) Militarism, I admit, pushes my buttons and bugs me like hell.

It's a common jihad, all the peoples of the world against neoliberal corporate slavery, which sad to say, American electorate has been enabling, exporting it all over the world and bringing it down upon themselves. Panem et circenses, bread and circus games, McDonalds and TV, that's how empires have managed to keep their masses pacified through history, US is no exception to the rule.

To win this fight what is needed first is cruel honesty, looking at things like they are, effective actions comes only after right analysis. I don't think that is judging, I hope it is not.

Sadly I agree that you and I are powerless to change your governement in the forseeable future, it has become Regime. Violence will beget only more violence and help to legitimice the violent oppression, that is why the Regime will constantly try to bait people to respond violently. As I see things, my advice is to forget about the Regime and fight it by making it irrelevant, by acting on the local level, becoming autonomous from the Regime.

This doesn't mean that we should stop exposing the Regime for what it is by all means that we can come up with. The most devious thing about this election has been how the media has been able to do it's usual divide and conquer bit, and create rift in your society between "Christian values" and "securalism". Yet the truth is that you are on the same side, equally victims of corporate slavery and suffocating and manipulating message from the corporate media. Don't fall for that trick, don't let partisanship divide your minds.

[Oak2004]

54. Pressure your governments to stop financing the US debt.

If Europe and Asia stopped giving Georgie the money he needed, he wouldn't be able to buy any more army men and airplanes and boats to play with. And his time as America's Criminal-in-chief would be numbered.

[aneerkoinos]

55. Check

Done that (Asian central banks is what Greenspin is left with, or not even them...).

And after USA goes bankrupt, Bush cut's all social programs while neverending energy crisis hits the world and worst US, what then? If you wan't future for your children, you can't stay dependent on the Federal Regime, you must seak new community based solutions, helping each other through the bad times.

[Oak2004]

58. Absolutely, that's why I'm advocating that

"blue" (and other willing) states, and even smaller governmental units, form compacts and regional councils for social and other soon-to-disappear programs. If need be, these compacts can become the framework around which secession or a new federal government can be built; at the least they'll spread the costs and risks among many instead of the few.

[bunny planet]

61. Our mainstream media is seriously compromised in America. It is part of

the problem, not part of the solution. How to help? I look to Candadian, Australian, and European papers to get my information about what is really going on in Iraq, and in my own country, how pathetic is that. Please help us get the word out through your media that our election system is thoroughly corrupt and that we are essentially at the mercy of this increasingly, unbalanced one-party government. Our media is useless, except for a very few outlets, like AAR and one or two investigative journalists who I'm afraid will be further marginalized or shut down completely.

We now need oversight from outside of our government, from other countries, for our election process, just like a third world country. I'm not sure how this is possible, perhaps through the UN. I heard there were UN observers in America for the 2004 election but that they were not allowed to observe in Ohio and Florida. Is this true? What's the point then. Those are the two places that the most crooked dealings took place and those states decided the election.

Punishing the US government through boycotting our products, movies, television etc. will open a few eyes as well. Our president masquerades as a Christian man of values but make no mistake, what we really have here is a Corporatocracy. Money talks and nothing else matters to these people. Hit them in their pocketbooks, hard. I'm not an economist though, I imagine that there are implications for the rest of the world, if our economy spirals out of control, just like in the Great Depression. I really don't know how else to get the attention of these Robber Barons though.

Perhaps there should be restrictions on their travel to other countries as well. If you are a thief (say someone like Ken Lay or a Halliburton high up)under criminal inditement, you can have your passport revoked, and your travel priviledges cut off. There must also be someway to mess with the diplomatic immunity of some US officials that are openly corrupt or have perjured themselves.

Report the corruption going on here, and often, play the audio tapes, if you can get hold of them, (ex. Enron executives laughing about ripping off grandmother's in California through their corrupt energy policies) name names, expose cover-ups, scream real loud. People here are starved to hear the truth, even if it can't get to us through our own media. If someone reports it, those of us who are paying attention can diseminate it somehow.

Don't misunderstand me, I am not advocating that we here don't have to struggle, and struggle hard, to change our broken election system and corrupt officials. I'm just saying that working within the US system is increasingly more difficult because the right-wing controls everything. We need outside monitoring. I think it is important for Europe to put pressure on the British government to remove Blair, I don't know how easy that will be, we as Americans have even less say in that. If Blair is impeached or voted out of office, I think it might contribute to our efforts to remove His Fraudulency, President Bush from office here, or at least make a stronger case for it.

Most importantly, we need to get the message out to the rest of the world, to be reported in their papers (those of you who have open government still, and a free and fair press) that the majority of the American people do not approve of what this administration is doing. If your papers and media start following the stories that our media refuses to cover, and it is out there enough and strongly reported, it will be easier to bring it to the attention of our representatives here, and most importantly to the American people who either aren't paying attention or have been mislead by the information/propaganda they've been subjected to (Rush Limbaugh, Fox News etc.)

I don't know if Fox news is on in other countries but if it is, boycott it and ask your elected officials to try and get it discontinued on your airwaves. It is state run, fascist infotainment, pretending to be news and it has contributed greatly to our collective ignorance and twisted psyches in this country. Any news media, in print or on TV, run by Rupert Murdoch is poisonous propaganda, worse than yellow journalism at it's height because it is so pervasive in our culture. Our television programming here in general, not even just the news channels, is designed to dumb down the masses and serves as a sort of modern day Roman coliseum.

Is short, we are not yet helpless, but we need help.

[aneerkoinos]

62. Mediocracy

Don't call it mainstream, it ain't. Corporate media is the voice of Corporate America, voice of military-industrial complex. Don't think the situation is better elsewhere, some places it's worse. Italy has been taken over by blatant corporate media fascism, richest guy in the country owning practically all the channels.

Bush is peanuts compared to real enemy, mediocracy. Best guerilla fighter against the enemy has been lately Al Giordano and his Narconews practicing what they call authentic journalism, I believe you are familiar with them; if not, klick http://www.narconews.com

Cynthia McKinney is on the money, as usual: http://www.narconews.com/Issue35/article1123.html
I see great potential in the Fund for Authentic Journalism, Dean and others proved that little guys money can make great difference, that Fund does not need to be limited to supporting Narconews, I don't think it needs to. Various indymedia pulling together and creating national TV-channel based on authentic journalism, citizen funding, independence from advetizers and most of all having fun is not only possible, it is necessity, it is what TPTB, what Mediocracy fear most. The real battle is for hearts and minds, for truth, and it can be won by taking decisive action.

[bunny planet]

64. I'm well aware that it's corporate media, by mainstream, I only meant that

it is the only way most people get their news. It is the primary news source, and yes mediocracy is a good word for it.

[genieroze]

46. As for barbarism, well we never had a Hitler, etc...

But we now have our own dictator, maybe it's our turn. I guess our leader thinks he can succeed where the others failed.

Those who cannot learn from history are doomed to repeat it.
George Santayana

http://www.secularhumanism.org/library/fi/britt_23_2.htm

[veggiemama]

63. Never had a a Hitler, a Mussolini, a Lenin, a Stalin, a Tito, a Napoleon,

etc? Well, you do now! Congratulations!

[Cats Against Frist]

49. What?

Their culture is crumbling because of the influx of our fat, low-brow culture that their kids are getting raised on. There are idiots everywhere in the world, but we're definitely the peddlers of death of anything cultural and all plastic bullshit.

You sound like a nationalist. Does it BOTHER you that someone called another country "most powerful?"

[forgethell]

53. Not at all.

To begin with "Europe" is not yet a country. I hear they now want a permanent seat on the Security Council. Will France be willing to give up theirs to "Europe"?

[aneerkoinos]

56. You are right

"Europe" is a continent, European Union is not a country, and never will be. It's new kind of political entity that cannot be defined by terms of nation states. Some ways like Federal country, some ways like UN, and something else. Lots of something else, it's a process.

[IAMREALITY]

2. Interesting Article, But

I just couldn't see what that had to do with 2004 Election Results and Discussion...

[goldengreek]

6. Look at the date of the article.

One week after the election. It has everything to do with that.

[Lefty48197]

9. Hey, we're just paying them back for Hitler, Franco, and Mussolini

.

[aneerkoinos]

16. And Colonels of Greece? n/t

[goldengreek]

31. Anyway, forgethell and all the other sister DUers...

I'm just making a point that there are BIG consequences from this stolen election. This is just the start.

(...and I say 'sister DUers' because 'brother DUer's is kind of sexist. I'm male, but I always talk like that. And yeah I know -- that can be considered sexist as well. Just consider the thought that counts!)

[Roger_Otip]

12. what's the big deal?

i don't think this is anything about confrontation. they're developing a new kind of power, pretty experimental - might work, might not, but if it does work it'll be great for the whole world since nuclear fusion is clean, hopefully safe, and very very powerful.

i think that "coalition of the willing comment" was tongue in cheek.

[PATRICK]

17. Looks like financial war to me

Bush devalues the dollar to make the rivals pay for our bills. They respond and are now united more than ever in destroying our dominance financially. That leaves the nukes and Russia is upping them again as will Shrub.

So much for the New American Century, just a selfish, backward horror show that pushes rivals to take us down.

[aneerkoinos]

19. Bit more than tongue in cheek, I think

"The EU's tactics in the fight for the $12 billion reactor resembled methods for which Europeans often criticize the United States -- vowing to go it alone with a "coalition of the willing" if a multilateral forum does not back its course."

But what can you do, Murdoch and other US corporate media is vehemently anti-European.

EU is world's number one in alternative energy, sustainable development and enviromental consciousness, and besides, France has better record in nuclear technology than Japan, where there has been numerous accidents. Enough of US and Japan obstructionism, we will build the reactor with the participation of others or without because it needs to be done.

[Roger_Otip]

23. sounds different in europe

from this article it's more like the argument was over whether to station it in france or japan - usa barely gets a mention
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/4016995.stm

[goldengreek]

34. Well, it is and it isn't.

The sense of urgency I picked up in the CNN article is even more obvious in the BBC one you directed me to.

Remember: Japan has chosen to side with Bush. There's a lot more than just an argument over a fusion reactor going on here.

And yes -- the USA barely gets mentioned. Just a little more evidence we're losing the contest over future technology.

But we can turn this on a dime. We just have to beat the reds to a bloody pulp and turn back into a civilized country.

[go west young man]

24. The article doesn't mention something else

France has going for itself. Oil in North Africa. Whereas we're like a crack addict trying to get a fix at all costs. We screwed up South America as far as energy goes. The only place that will deal with us is the Persian Gulf. The beauty of it all is that WE CAN'T WIN. In the end renewable enrgy is the only way to go and the Republicans blew the chance to keep up with Europe twenty years ago. Back when Al Gore was writing books on the subject. It just goes to show how foolish and greedy Republicans really are.

[goldengreek]

35. But it's never too late!

We have to keep in mind that just a few decisions have brought us to this sorry state of affairs.

We're the greatest people on earth just because -- well -- just because we are.

We can use our military power to bully and blackmail everyone in the world and threaten their interests.

(And hope they don't remember that they have ICBMs with nuclear warheads.)

We can treat the vast majority of our citizens like cattle because only a few people are smart enough to be be at the top of the social pyramid and everyone else can just eat shit and die.

There are other strange ideas we've got bouncing around in our heads. But we can get over them.

[John Q. Citizen]

26. I thought Bhutan and Cuba were number 1 in alternative energy, sustainable

developement and environmental consciousness.

[aneerkoinos]

38. Yep

In some respects they are.

[goldengreek]

33. I didn't know that.

Japan has had nuclear accidents? I really am out of the loop on that one!

It's funny -- Japan complains in another article I read about this that the French site is about a hundred miles from a port. But as in nuclear technology, Japan and France go tit-for-tat on high-speed rail transportation. That distance is nothing!!

[goldengreek]

32. I don't think it was tongue in cheek.

The author of the article was trying to make the Europeans look petty. The interpretation of Europe's motive is purely my own (and may very well be wrong). There's a lot going on between our two countries as a result of our fear of Europe's ascendency and, I believe in this case, Europe's fear for our grip on reality.

[NVMojo]

60. I agree with the Europeans, the USA is becoming FUBAR!!!

[veggiemama]

65. Europeans may not be the most "powerful" people on the planet,

although the combined WMD's of the EU could take out the whole planet, but Europeans are, according the "The Economist" report published this week, far happier, more properous, and have their "moral issues" prioritized better than Americans. But what Europe needs right now more than anything is a way out of the fossil fuel trap. I don't think most Americans can conceive of how much "we" pay for our fuel--petrol, heating oil, natural gas, electricity, and I guarantee that if those "Red State" voters had to pay "our" prices, Chimpy would've have been drawn and quartered by now.

Europeans realize that Bushco's energy and economic policies ARE a declaration of war. Fusion is just one way of fighting back. There will be more to come--out of necessity. Believe me, if Americans had to pay $6.00 per gallon of petrol and $3.50 per gallon of heating oil, there would be a revolution.

[aneerkoinos]

67. Most "powerful"

Those kind of arguments are really in the category "my daddy is stronger than yours" and "who would win, Superman, Batman or Spiderman?", not worth of anything but having some silly fun.

But let's not forget:

EU beat Bush on Kyoto, leaving US practically alone in the world. Kyoto is now reality regardless of US staying out.

EU beat Bush on ICC, leaving US practically alone in the world. ICC is now reality regardless of US staying out.

Old Europe, even when EU was badly divided, beat Bush in the UNSC leaving Bush and his poodles without any kind of legitimacy in their war against Iraq. Bush is loosing in Iraq and the Coalition is crumbling.

From schoolyard politics we all learn that those who can lead from the crowd and get kids united around an agenda allways beat the bully boy in the end. The real question seems not to be "which one is more powerfull" but how badly the bully boy needs to be beaten - or rather allowed to hurt himself - before he joins the rest and starts behaving in responsible way and stops physically abusing little kids. We should be firm but gentle, obviously the bully boy comes from a background of domestic problems, substance abuse etc. ;).