Bush Got 130,000 to 260,000 Extra Votes In Florida?

[GDoyle]

http://rottendenmark.blogspot.com/

GDoyle

[NVMojo]

1. of course he did! What else was to be expected?

[rockedthevoteinMA]

2. you gotta be sh*tting me!! n/t

[indigo11153]

19. OMG

:wow:

[txindy]

3. If this is accurate, tomorrow will be a very memorable day!

:toast: (Okay, today will be memorable. I really need to learn how to look at the clock before posting. :crazy:)

[imenja]

4. What are "traditional methods"?

My understanding is that all Florida counties use e-voting or optic-scans. Punch cards were banned.
I thought a previous analysis alleged the optic-scan counties had the widest Republican margins in spite of Democratic registration?

[ParanoidPat]

5. Hold on boys and girls!

It's gonna get bumpy! :evilgrin:


WHEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE! :bounce:

[Zan_of_Texas]

10. Yeah, well.

People will want PROOF.

Electronic voting machines don't easily burp up proof of fraud, just flaw. Why do you think certain people rushed to put them in place?

Even flaw is hard to prove on the paperless machines, unless the fraudster (or error) messes up and has a wrong number of vote tallies that doesn't agree with the number of voters signed in to vote.

That's why recounting the paper ballots and optical scan ballots is crucial -- those can PROVE inaccuracies.

I'd like to see a recount of the entire state of Nevada -- that is the only state that went nearly statewide with paper for electronic machines for Nov. 2004. Sequoia, I believe. If that recount showed the paper and DRE tallies don't match, one could guess that electronic voting is not as accurate as the slick brochures and slick election officials promised (well, we knew that, but proof is nice).

[jsamuel]

17. Proof == Volusia County

[intheflow]

26. Agreed. UC Berkley and Volusia combined = reasonable doubt.

= re-vote? Now that would be sweet!

[merh]

31. In civil cases, the burden of proof is by a preponderance of

the evidence, not as high as reasonable doubt. Remember, OJ was found responsible for the wrongful death of Nicole & Ron in civil court, yet acquitted in criminal.

Challenging elections is a civil matter, prosecuting those that perpetrated the fraud would be criminal.

[go west young man]

6. Oh yeah!!!!

This is just the start of the avalanche! Finally a seriously credible institution going on the record. Yes!!

[AJH032]

7. Nice

What is going to happen with this story? Could Kerry now win Florida?

[genieroze]

8. Will the msm cover it?

[chomskysright]

9. good goddess! I sent it to the news

[high density]

11. Are they talking about the optical scanners?

"Electronic voting machine" is kind of ambiguous.

[tandem5]

12. whoa... this can't be real? can it?

guess we'll have to wait 'til tomorrow.

[pauldp]

13. Yes! Yes! Yes!

:crazy: ...but maybe that research team is just a bunch of wacky conspiracy theorists who believe in evolution?

:party:

[tandem5]

18. I know... monkeys and apes?!? - who are they foolin'?!

not me!! :P

[APizzedOffDem]

14. If there is a God in heaven

please, please, please, let this be the break we need?


yeah, I know there is a God in heaven...I'm just being dramatic ;)

[althecat]

15. Cool bananas

[c-macdonald]

16. This isn't just one professor either...

...this is the UC Berkeley Survey Research Center and they've been studying election fraud and voting irregularities since at least 2000.

Now the question is: where can I watch this press conference tomorrow? Think FOX News will show it?

[Kralizec]

20. If someone can get something from the UC Berkeley website, that would rock

Because I already looked and couldn't find anything on this. But I must admit I didn't find a "Press Room" for the University.

[tandem5]

24. thread from latest breaking news...

not really new info, but another source...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x1001078

[saracat]

21. But we need 400,000 or more!

Not to minimize , it is great to prove either fraud or miscalculation from a credible source but without enough votes, what good will it do?

[jsamuel]

22. Yeah but that only includes the e-vote counties (and they said OR MORE)

[saracat]

23. Still a long slog. I am not getting excited yet.

but I am hoping! :)

[jsamuel]

25. Well some of the exit polls said Kerry was only supposed to win by 2%

So he would only need to pick up a total of 550,000 votes to do so. If you notice, the Volusia County thing is Paper Ballots (not an e-vote county), but it has a very large population. If this continues to other Paper Ballot counties, and you add in say 300,000 from the e-voting counties, that would make Kerry the winner like the exit polls said.

I am trying to make that happen. We need more evidence like Volusia County. I think everyone should take a video camera to their county Election Office and if anything strange is going on, tape it.

[Zan_of_Texas]

27. okay, let's be real clear how we talk about voting mechanisms --

that way we can all know what we are each talking about.

Volusia uses optical scan systems. (Some people call those mark-sense). Optical scan has a paper record that is scanned, and counted by computer.

That is not the same as a "paper ballot." That is what we call the simple no computer paper and pen/pencil.

Levers aren't in use in Florida, but are still used in some places, like some parts of New York State.

Punch cards (yeah, with chads) are still in use in some places, like Ohio.

The kind of voting that is least likely to be able to be recounted meaningfully (results printed again, yes, recounted, no) is paperless electronic voting, also called touch screen, also called DRE.

Ok.

[liam97]

35. The election will have to decertified

The Berkeley study makes the point that voting machine "irregularities" cannot explain why all the "excess" votes go to one candidate. If only a handful of votes showed this pattern then one can still claim a glitch, but 136,000 cannot show the exact same pattern by glitch or chance. They estimate the chance of this occuring "by chance" in 1 in 1000. If the votes appeared by fraur or some dramatic error, then they cannot simply be awarded to the opposing candidate. The election will have to challenged.

[ElementaryPenguin]

39. Add those extra Bush votes to Kerry's totals - and Kerry wins FLA!!

[smartvoter]

40. Depends on Whether They Were Ghost Votes

If the margin is 400,000, you need 200,000 to flip back to Kerry to become even. If they are ghost votes (extra votes for Bush as opposed to Kerry votes flipped to Bush), the numbers aren't there if it is limited to this aspect only. If they are Kerry votes that were flipped to Bush, 260,000 is more than enough to flip the election.

[The Backlash Cometh]

28. It has to be from a combination of methods. When is the absentee ballot

audit going to begin? I wish Kerry would release money and lead us into an audit of those ballots. I have time to volunteer if only someone would lead.

[truehawk]

29. Kick

[sabra]

30. So this reported some where else too...

Seems legit?

http://www.prnewswire.com/cgi-bin/stories.pl?ACCT=109&STORY=/www/story/11-18-2004/0002462583&EDATE=

[saracat]

32. This is just a press release. Anyone know if MSM picked it up?

[madrigal]

34. media coverage links

http://www.yubanet.com/artman/publish/article_15415.shtml

http://biz.yahoo.com/prnews/041118/sfth066_1.html

http://www.prnewswire.com/cgi-bin/stories.pl?ACCT=109&STORY=/www/story/11-18-2004/0002464301&EDATE=

http://www.mysan.de/international/article6094.html

[saracat]

42. Are you kidding? This is all Internet junk not msm!

And then you repeat the press release. Give me a break! Do you know what real coverage is?? Don't mean to be irritable but this isn't main stream media. Even the Yahoo is just the PR hoping to be picked up.It appears no one who counts is covering this.up. I hope someone picks it up soon. It is at least an interesting story. Hopefully the Berkley papers will pick it up.

[newyawker99]

46. Hi madrigal!!

Welcome to DU!! :toast:

[BlueDog2u]

33. Kick!

Send it out, people. No need to hold back on this one.

[PaulaGem]

36. Won't corrected totals be subtracting from Bush

as well as adding to Kerry?

[liam97]

38. No, the election will have to challenged

The Berkeley study makes the point that voting machine "irregularities" cannot explain why all the "excess" votes go to one candidate. If only a handful of votes showed this pattern then one can still claim a glitch, but 136,000 cannot show the exact same pattern by glitch or chance. They estimate the chance of this occuring "by chance" in 1 in 1000. If the votes appeared by fraud or some dramatic error, then they cannot simply be awarded to the opposing candidate.

[GrapplerHK]

37. Study also claims

"no effect on electronic voting.....from 2004 to 2004 in Ohio".

Some good news, but bad news as well.

[New Earth]

41. but didn't Ohio NOT use many touch screens?

i thought ohio mainly used the punch cards? how would their report relate to Ohio anyway, if they didn't use electtronic touch screens?

[tex-wyo-dem]

43. Yet another data point...

"Statistical patterns in counties that did not have e-touch
voting machines predict a 28,000 vote decrease in President Bush's support in Broward County; machines tallied an increase of 51,000 votes - a net gain of 81,000 for the incumbent. President Bush should have lost 8,900 votes in Palm Beach County, but instead gained 41,000 - a difference of 49,900. He should have gained only 18,400 votes in Miami-Dade County but saw a gain of 37,000 - a difference of 19,300 votes."

I wonder if BBV is keeping track of this. Last I heard they were still in FL to audit other counties. They should attempt to look at some of the counties listed above. If they were to discover the same patterns as listed above it could help with validation of Berkley's report and be validation for more through investigation.

[woodstein]

44. Best news I've heard in 16 days

Folks, I'm here in Europe (I'm American).

I've been totally without life for the past few weeks. This message board has been the one thing that has kept me sane about the election.
The energy of the posters here is what's keeping this story alive

Keep up the good work!!!

[newyawker99]

47. Hi woodstein!!

Welcome to DU!! :toast:

[mother earth]

48. Hold on Woodstein!

We are holding out for uplifting news...its a slow processs, and the wait is killing us.....but have faith, WE SHALL OVERCOME!

[liam97]

45. These are some "glitches"