What Kinds of Fraud Would be Undetected by the Ohio Recount?

[On the Road]

I am overjoyed with the recount that appears to be on in Ohio. But:

Certain kinds of fraud are not detectable this way. I've been trying to think of these and see if there are ways to check them either as part of the recount or as a separate effort:

-- Changing votes on evoting machines which have no paper trail. As long as total votes are the same, exit poll data by polling stations is the only way I can think of to detect this. (AFAIK, this did not apply to Ohio in this election.)

-- Ballot box stuffing -- inserting phony Republican ballots into the totals. Comparing the official vote with the number of voters who were marked as showing up at the polls would detect this.

[soleft]

1. Flipping votes from Kerry to Bush on paperless machines

Yes. How would you detect that? How do you recount paperless votes?

[On the Road]

9. I Don't Think Those Machines Were Used This Election in Ohio

is that correct?

[jhgatiss]

10. There are some e-voting machines...

in Ohio. Franklin county, home to Columbus, is probably the biggest example. They are older style, non-Diebold, non-ES&S machines without paper trails. Hence the Gahanna flaw that was played up so much here and in the media. You can go to www.verifiedvoting.org/verifier to see the types and models of machines in place across the country.

[FULL_METAL_HAT]

14. Not the "voting machines" ... it's the "central vote tabulators"! n/t

[On the Road]

17. Manipulations of the Central Vote Tabulators

would be detected by a recount, no?

I too suspect manipulation at that level. And the recount should catch that.

[FULL_METAL_HAT]

22. How about injecting into the central tabulator votes from "felons"

who are registered -- but who wouldn't ever actually vote because they "know its illegal" ...

Katherine Harris said there were "tens of thosands" of felons who ACTUALLY voted in FL in 2000! Perhaps those felons never stepped into a voting booth actually... It's occurred to me that maybe the big reason to stop the Florida counting was to make sure all those felon votes wouldn't be discovered?

All the best,

FULL_METAL_HAT

This is my computer. There are many like it, but this one is mine. My computer is my best friend. It is my life. I must master it, as I must master my life. Without me my computer is useless. Without my computer, I am useless. I must fire my computer true. I must shoot straighter than my enemy who is trying to kill me. I must shoot him before he shoots me. I will. Before God I swear this creed. My computer and myself are defenders of my country. We are the masters of our enemy. We are the saviours of my life. So be it .. . until there is no enemy ... but peace. Amen.

[Justyce]

2. No input directly to your question, but it looks like they still need

nearly another $6000 by today for anything to happen -- hopefully they will get it! I can't afford to give any more right now. http://www.votecobb.org/

[ahimsa]

5. Looks like they have the fee already

Excerpt from Donation Page 

The Cobb and Badnarik campaigns are in the process of raising the required fee, estimated at $113,600, for a complete recount in all 11,306 precincts in Ohio. We also need to raise money for other expenses involved with this effort; for example, our candidates and staff and communications systems and travel expenses also need to be paid.

so I don't see a reason why they can't go forward with what they have and raise more money for expenses as they need it.

[On the Road]

7. Check the Time -- Those Numbers Were as of 9PM Last Night

I gave another $25 since then. I suspect they've gone over and haven't posted an update.

[bullimiami]

3. the recount will tell us

if the optical ballots and the punch cards (if they are checking them) were counted right at least.

of course stuffing the boxes, double voting, rigged touchscreens and all of the other dirty tricks we are pretty much helpless to do anything about.




the recount gauge hasnt been updated since 9pm last night. 15 1/2 hrs ago. i think it must be over 150 by now.

[On the Road]

11. One Way to Check Double Voting and Tossing Ballots

would be to compare the number of votes recorded on election day with the number of people who showed up at the polls -- meaning the number of voters whose names were crossed off the list and were allowed to vote.

I don't know if those last numbers are available, or can be checked by hand. If not, that's the biggest missing step I know of in the recount process. It could be an important one.

[Grown2Hate]

4. I'm FAIRLY certain that Ohio didn't have ANY paperless e-voting

machines. I could be wrong, but I've heard that pretty consistently on the boards here. Also, another type of fraud that would go unaccounted for (as far as I can tell) is simple discarding of ballots, ballot stuffing, or voter suppression (while not a fraud by definition, certainly a shitty, horrible practice).

Any verification about the machines? I was under the impression that all the e-voting in Ohio was with a paper trail, or only optically scanned ballots. Anyone know for sure? (Wish I could donate to Cobb... I already gave to www.HelpAmericaRecount.org and to DU today... but, they do have OVER the $110,000.00 needed to ACTUALLY recount. They set the goal at $150K to cover any incidental costs... but if they're CLOSE to that, I think they'll be able to do the recount no problem). Discuss. :)

[jhgatiss]

12. You're wrong.

See my post above re: Franklin county and verifiedvoting.org/verfier for more info.

[StephanieMarie]

6. I think

Most of Ohio is paper ballots of one sort or another. This is good news for a recount. Lots of punch cards in minority counties which may have been kicked out of the scanning machines, but will be OK in a hand recount. I have to remain hopeful. The problem is the Secretary of State, Blackwell, is also the head of the Ohio Republican party. He really needs to recuse himself in this recount. I hope they find deliberate fraud, and that the smoking gun is in Shrub's hand, but I know that's a pipe dream.

[DoYouEverWonder]

8. It doesn't matter

they are not going to be able to get the same number twice and people will see what a farce our voting system is at this point.

Why, after what happened in FL, is OH still using punch cards? There's the first red herring.

[Grown2Hate]

13. BIG difference though between OH and FL!

FL didn't have consistent laws in place as to what constituted a valid vote (some counties "hanging chads" were ok, in others it WASN'T a vote, etc.). They didn't have uniform rules for what constitutes a vote. That's why the Supreme Court demanded the recount stopped (out of their jurisdiction, of course).

HOWEVER (and this is KEY), Ohio DOES have a uniform rule for what constitutes a vote. A hanging chad IS counted as a vote, as long as two of the four corners are detached (a "pregnant" chad, or one with only 1 corner torn, does not constitute a vote in Ohio). The good news is at LEAST there are uniform rules, making the recount far less painful than FL.

Hope that helps, and keep the hope!

[On the Road]

15. The Totals WIll Never Match Exactly

but there should be some consistency in the official vote versus the recount. Large systematic differences should trigger an investigation.

[DoYouEverWonder]

23. I'd love to be able to call up the IRS and tell them

gee our totals don't match, I hope you don't mind.

[meisje]

16. We used paperless Danher electronic machines in Columbus, Ohio

Here is more info on the machine

http://www.verifiedvoting.org/article.php?id=5179

[karlrschneider]

19. Do you happen to know the results from Columbus?....thanks

ks

[Karenca]

18. THE VOTES THEY TOSSED ASIDE WHEN

they made the LockDown (fake terrorisrt threat)...They probably threw out our votes...Why else would they lock the bldg.
I am really worried about those.

I SAY A TOTAL RE-ELECTION IS DUE IN OHIO!

[FULL_METAL_HAT]

20. In Florida, our Absentee Ballots went to our county. What about Ohio?

Anyone know some details of the Absentee Voting in Ohio?

One major question is about every absentee vote being "registered" ... to compare "registered absentee ballots" to "counted absentee ballots".

In Florida, all the absentee ballots were sent directly to the County Supervisor of Elections. Ohio doesn't seem to do this. Congressional votes, as well as State Senate and State House votes obviously need to be counted towards their districts ... There is all the strange distribution of absentee ballots in OH, and does that accurately correlate with the registered absentee's in each district?

(!!! This just in -- my mail -- which has coincidentally just delivered my Florida "Voter Registration ID Card" -- just in time!! BTW this is the second VRID card I've gotten, but I never did get my actual Absentee Ballot!! I voted with a Federal Write-In Absentee Ballot, so who knows what actually happened to it ... )

And another thing on Florida that was startling was that a friend, also absentee, was trying to get the right info from his polling district and he was on the phone, literally for hours... He called the Dems vote-help-line and they suggested he say he was a Republican. He did when he called back and had everything taken care of in FIVE MINUTES -- I kid you not...


Back to the ohio absentee ballots, anyone with details about how the absentee ballots were issued and what they said would be very helpful. Scanned Absentee Ballots would be super helpful if you have one around. (And if anyone has a scan of a FL Absentee Ballot, I'd sure love to see what I missed!)

Here are some links in my search:

http://www.google.com/search?num=50&hl=en&lr=&safe=off&q=ohio+absentee+ballots+county
http://columbusoh.about.com/cs/columbusfranklin/ht/Vote_Franklin.htm
http://www.google.com/search?q=ohio+%22registered+absentee%22
http://www.franklincountyohio.gov/boe/apps/voter/index.asp
http://www.co.lucas.oh.us/boe/civilian_absentee.asp


All the best,

FULL_METAL_HAT

This is my computer. There are many like it, but this one is mine. My computer is my best friend. It is my life. I must master it, as I must master my life. Without me my computer is useless. Without my computer, I am useless. I must fire my computer true. I must shoot straighter than my enemy who is trying to kill me. I must shoot him before he shoots me. I will. Before God I swear this creed. My computer and myself are defenders of my country. We are the masters of our enemy. We are the saviours of my life. So be it .. . until there is no enemy ... but peace. Amen.

[chomskysright]

21. ask Blackwell for by-party data

I just sent this letter to Blackwell as prompted by Dobb who is doing analysis. See her stuff here: http://ustogether.org/election04/SelectionMethod.html

We need the by-party information. On blackwell's web site, state of OH, there is only the number of voters/ county. We need the info re: what party:

I asked these counties: [e-mail],[e-mail],[e-mail], [e-mail],[e-mail],[e-mail]

The last person is a reporter for the Plain Dealer who has been writing a bit about all of this:

http://www.cleveland.com/cuyahoga/plaindealer/index.ssf?/base/cuyahoga/1100169336227680.xml

Marsha V. Hammond, PhD: Licensed Psychologist; NC and GA
e mail: [e-mail]

November 15, 2004

Dear Mr. Blackwell:

We would like to see the OH voting return data as described here http://serform.sos.state.oh.us/sos/news/index2.htm expanded to give us information pertaining to voter registration / party. It is on the NC BOE web site, for instance. So that the data associated with the election can be fully analyzed, we would like to see it posted please.

If that information is somewhere----perhaps for some of the counties?----perhaps someone could inform me.

Thank you.

Sincerely,

Marsha Hammond, PhD: Licensed Psychologist

[fliesincircles]

25. No Party Affiliation

is required in Ohio. If you ask for a dem. ballot in the primary, your considered dem. Puke ballot, youre a puke. The presidential primaries had something around 37% turnout. So the "official" party affiliation breaks down like 18% dem, 19% puke, and 63% independent. The numbers here might not be totally correct, but my point is, everyone who did not vote in the primary is "independent".

[Jasper 91]

24. What is there to stop them switching ballots for Kerry with an equal

Number for * ? Is there anyway to prevent this from happening as they have had plenty of time to 'fix' things?