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Chili Donating Member (832 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 05:01 AM
Original message
Voter Suppression on a Massive Scale
Edited on Mon Nov-15-04 05:06 AM by Chili
I know this is nothing new to most people, or at least, it is obvious to most. But with the incidents of voter suppression and intimidation listed like this, all together, in chronological order - http://shadowbox.i8.com/stolen.htm (see the Other Articles / Blogs section) it's just overwhelming. I am overwhelmed. It's almost impossible not to look at the breadth of voter suppression reported in multiple states and not believe that it was coordinated on some level, somehow. There's a clear pattern there, it can't be lightly debunked. I realize saying that pushes me over the "conspiracy!" line, and I know any rational person who resists theories like this will try to explain it away... but to argue against that theory, you have to ignore Sproul operating in 4 states, multiple mass-mailings of faulty information targeted at Democrats or African-Americans in multiple states, multiple accounts of missing or late-arriving absentee ballots, multiple reports of voters having to use provisional ballots, or of precincts running out of ballots or paper, multiple incidents of polls opening one-two hours late, multiple reports of only 3 or 4 voting booths per 300 or 500 or 1500 voters, the multiple incidents of Republican officials ignoring the laws and policies of their state, the highly suspect hardware problems in multiple precincts or even in the same building in multiple cities... it defies logic or coincidence. The key word is multiple. LOL. The odds are just impossibly thin that all of this, ALL of these incidents, were not connected, and are just simply coincidence. Know why? Because it didn't happen in Kansas, it didn't happen in Idaho, it didn't happen in Republican areas all across the south, it didn't happen in solid blue areas like NYC or Chicago or Detroit or Boston... it happened in Houston and San Antonio and Columbus OH and Cincinnati OH and Cleveland OH and all over Florida... It defies mathematical probability.

And I didn't even get to the 4 most recent pages, and I skipped a lot and left a lot of the early stuff out... it was just too much. Maybe tomorrow I'll find those exceptions where Republicans had to wait in long lines and there weren't enough booths, and the vote was suppressed, maybe I just missed them, because I want to fair and measured - fair and balanced, LOL - but something tells me I didn't.

Source: http://www.votersunite.org/

There is no way this can be proven. Somebody would have to talk. Somebody would have to step forward and say, "I know." Because of the extreme partisanship of what we're dealing with here, I doubt that's ever going to happen. Without any hint of evidence or proof of who's behind this - other than Sproul, that's pretty much in the bag - my guess is that this was done at the local level by fanatics in the Republican youth groups, like the College Republicans... probably with encouragement from the RNC leadership, probably higher, but we'll never be able to pin it on any one group or person, there will never be an email or memo surfacing as evidence of anything. We just know. No sane person can look at this list and not think so.

In my (most humble and unconnected) opinion, this was a 2-pronged attack: voter suppression and E-vote machine tampering, very loosely connected at the state level, just enough to swing the election. That's why I'll bet we won't find massive amounts of votes missing or going one way too far out of the realm of "coincidence" or "isolated incident." They didn't need to shift 100,000 votes in any one state; 1000 in this precinct, 3500 in that ward... it was enough. There were so many ways to do it - look at all the power outages, machines going blank, MULTIPLE machines going blank, LOL - it sounds crazy, conspiratorial, but, hey... they laughed at Hillary, too, didn't they? But this time we won't have a David Brock stepping out of the right-wing shadows to tell the story. This time, unless they got careless and it is revealed in the recount, it'll never be proven. I pray that their extreme hubris will expose it in some way, somewhere, and I support the recounts 100%. But if nothing else, if nothing is found, this mountain of problems screams for election reform, and that's one bone I'm not going to let go of.

My head hurts. :tinfoilhat:
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JusticeForAll Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 05:13 AM
Response to Original message
1. If you are looking for debate from someone...
You won't find it from me!

Nice post!
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dubya da thief Donating Member (2 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 05:41 AM
Response to Original message
2. Big Picture, Big Task
BIG QUESTION-

in Florida, i notice a lot of the really skewed counties are all small rural counties in the same regions. DO THESE SMALL COUNTIES USE A POOLED COUNTING CENTER???, ie.. a common thread for fraud? I've tried searching all night for the info, and can't find it anywhere online, so i was hoping someone would know, and hoping even more that there is a common thread to these skewed numbers.....

there is no doubt there are many things wrong with this year's numbers. It seems to run into senate races and state races too, nevermind the padding of the w's popular vote totals in states that were a shoe in for da W ..... state after state has their oddities, and more need to be looked at in detail....Statistically impossible some say that early voting, absentee ballots, exit polls all say one thing, the same thing, and yet the final counts are way off. I bet there is more to it than just the NC (fine work, btw)

Someone with the info and the talent needs to look at the entire vote, every state, ever race to see how far reaching it is, or to prove that in every state the various party affiliations, absentee, early vote, exit polls and final results all jived, and then target the ones that did not.

Once that is done, common threads need to be found.

This said, there may very well be WIDESPREAD well organized fraud. Patterns lead us this far, and more patterns need to be exposed to find common threads to lead us to answers....We need to find out where, and how, and people should be exposed and made accountable for subverting our democracy.

Hopefully this will lead to someone making it it's own post, in the effort to create an organized aproach to crunching this data and finding the threads that tie the plot together....infact, MAKE AN ENTIRE FORUM TO ORGANIZING AND ANALIZING THE DATA....please? atleast do it to drive Mr.Rove nuts...Please? you know he's sweating as he watches this story take life....

WE HAVE 4 YEARS TO LEARN FROM THIS AND PREPARE FOR 2008. We need to analize and plan for their dirty tricks. IT IS SO IMPORTANT TO MAKE THE E-VOTE SECURE AND AUDITABLE. with out that, all is pointless......

TO THOSE WHO HOPE IT MATTERS THIS YEAR and it may....an ORGANIZED effort must be made now - break up the states into teams, gather the numbers, put them in a spreadsheet someone makes, then start crunching them. NOW. Someone make a forum dedicated to this subject, so that the work can begin!!!

On a different front, someone needs to get going on filing some civil rights suits in these various places with high levels of vote supression....


oh, and yeah, where are those republicans who had any voting problems??? There are none. keep in mind the probems listed just reflect the people who took the time to call in and file a complaint, and is only i think, THE TIP OF THE ICEBURG. Someone needs to start making charts of this all too.

Actually, once all the data is in and crunched, good charts, quick and easy to follow would be great to diseminate amoung the masses.


"we won't be fooled again!" -da who.
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newyawker99 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 05:58 PM
Response to Reply #2
7. Hi dubya da thief!!
Welcome to DU!! :toast:
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Chili Donating Member (832 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-17-04 01:12 AM
Response to Reply #2
9. I wish I had the time and means and connections to do this...
...boy, do I wish! This needs the focus of a Jeffrey Toobin or Joe Conason, but I'm betting even they won't go there without more solid evidence - names, people they can quote. Again, the difference between this and the Arkansas Project was that David Brock told Sidney Blumenthal about his own participation in it, then told Conason and Toobin (Blumenthal told Hillary, who first said "vast right-wing conspiracy" on the Today Show based on what Brock told him, and she was ridiculed for it). All 3 were then able to write their books, and it's only thanks to Brock that we know that there was indeed a vast right-wing conspiracy - let the assholes laugh, there was, and they know it. But unless there is a new convert out there, someone like Brock or Arianna Huffington, who turns and comes toward the light and starts to talk, we're not going to find out.
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unblock Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 05:50 AM
Response to Original message
3. so far all the "glitches" seem to be to shrub's benefit
how many stories have you heard about a machine turning an "all republicans" vote into a kerry vote?

granted d.u. is not the most unbiased of sites, but i haven't heard any anywhere else either.
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Carl Brennan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 12:16 PM
Response to Original message
4. Anybody that doesn't believe it is a "coincidence theorist" whacko
IMHO. }(
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Chili Donating Member (832 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-17-04 01:12 AM
Response to Reply #4
10. LOLOL!
I like that! So true!
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fasttense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 12:26 PM
Response to Original message
5. Voter Suppression
More and more things we are finding out about this election looks like what Hitler did right before WWII. Didn't he use strong arm tactics to keep people from the polls. So here the Repubs just use a milder form of it.
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Chili Donating Member (832 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-17-04 01:04 AM
Response to Reply #5
8. about Hitler...
...in my original writing of this post, I had included a paragraph about Hitler and the Final Solution... and how there was never a memo or written policy that could be tied to Hitler himself ordering the destruction of the Jewish population in Europe, there was no paper trail leading from the concentration camps straight to Berlin. Instead, there were secret meetings and decisions were made and plans set into motion, on the bureaucratic level, designed to protect him from it - plausible deniability, is that what it's called? I erased this paragraph because I didn't want anyone to be offended by a false analogy or to mistake my meaning - a stolen election, or two, cannot be equated with systematic genocide. There is no comparison, that's like comparing a paper cut to an amputation. But the concept is the same. They thought they could get away with it, too.
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fasttense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-17-04 01:21 AM
Response to Reply #8
13. Exactly
You said what I was trying to express. There's this overwhelming secrecy, hidden decisions and closed door discussions with no paper trails. There are lies and explanations about lies yet no one being held accountable. There is underground vote suppression and vote count cheating yet we have very few names to pin it on just this vague Repub machine. I believe the early Nazi machine worked much like this.
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Helga Scow Stern Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-17-04 01:44 AM
Response to Reply #8
14. Investigate campaign managers as the instruments of the high command.
Jim Tobin, B-C New England campaign chair resigned before the election when it came out he was responsible for phone-jamming during a 2002 Democratic GOTV effort.

http://64.233.161.104/search?q=cache:lvVjQ8fO7zoJ:www.votelaw.com/blog/archives/voter_suppression/+Voter+suppression+case+studies&hl=en

Katherine Harris and Keith Blackwell surely are other examples of the criminal intention to supress and distort the vote. This pattern of top level campaign managers as thugs hellbent on winning at any cost parallels the Nazi model you describe. And that must be why the rewards are so high. "Campaign manager" may be a euphemism for the one who does the dirty work.

Does anyone know about the others? Is there a list somewhere?
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Chili Donating Member (832 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-17-04 01:50 AM
Response to Reply #14
16. good point
We need sweeping election reform so badly it's ridiculous, starting with a law that only a bi-partisan election board, with members appointed by the two parties or, better yet, elected, can oversee elections - no partisan Secretary of State connected to either party, this is outrageous. I'm no lawmaker, I don't know how it could be worked out, but this is the first strike we need to make.
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Carolab Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-17-04 01:53 AM
Response to Reply #5
19. Yeah and what's REALLY scary
is they recruited all these young men and put them in their organizations. College Republicans are just a bunch of budding young neo-Nazi soldiers just like Hitler's youth army.
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Helga Scow Stern Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-17-04 03:27 AM
Response to Reply #19
20. KKKarl cut his teeth cheating in College Republicans...
according to Bush's Brain.
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Kansas Wyatt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 12:33 PM
Response to Original message
6. It happened in Kansas
Kansas sent out forms for disabled people to vote by absentee ballot, and I know of at least two that never received their ballots at all and were told that they could vote with provisional ballots. Even more disturbing was that these two were not even in the register, even though they had been previously registered. It just didn't make sense, until I went to the State's website to double-check to see if they were registered. The website had the name DIEBOLD on it, and I assume that this is no coincidence.

That's one way to make sure nobody votes against Republicans, remove disabled people from the voter register.
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Chili Donating Member (832 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-17-04 01:51 AM
Response to Reply #6
18. KW. was there an article?
I'd like to add it to the list...
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fearnobush Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-17-04 01:15 AM
Response to Original message
11. Here is an other thread on this topic.
Ojai Person Original message

KKK as model of vote tampering and suppression.

<http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=203&topic_id=55162#56359>
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Chili Donating Member (832 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-17-04 01:16 AM
Response to Reply #11
12. thank you, fearnobush...
...I read your great post and added the link to that one too!
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Helga Scow Stern Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-17-04 01:47 AM
Response to Original message
15. This is a great post, Chili!
I will look again at your well-done site to read these reports. Have you seen any info on the campaign managers, or on how the campaign is organized?
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Chili Donating Member (832 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-19-04 05:03 PM
Response to Reply #15
23. Thank you OP!
I've been updating it, trying to keep up! There are even more links on there now, and I've tried to arrange to make it easier to find stuff. There's so MUCH.
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Carolab Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-17-04 01:51 AM
Response to Original message
17. Hell yes it was coordinated and
hell yes young Repukes were involved. They were running around stealing signs (caught on tape here in MN) and were doing the registrations (ran like hell when we told them we were with MoveOn), did the "poll watching"--I read an "admission and apology" on Dean's forum by a guy who was remorseful because he was working with the "college Republicans" and was at the polls and personally witnessed the sabotage--they jammed the phones so people couldn't call up and get help and thought it was real funny. I know these jerks called up radio stations here in Minnesota, 3000 calls on election day to NPR alone, trying to keep MoveOn people away. They said we were "pushing Kerry material on people" (OF COURSE NOT--we were there to check our voters in--people we had canvassed and we followed up with) and that we were too close to the polls (we had a string to make sure we were the required 100 feet away, OUTSIDE in the cold).

It was a veritable army of hoods.
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Helga Scow Stern Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-17-04 03:29 AM
Response to Reply #17
21. Do you have a link for the "admission and apology"?
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Eloriel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-19-04 04:38 PM
Response to Reply #21
22. Try this -- NOT on the Dean blog, right here
Edited on Fri Nov-19-04 04:39 PM by Eloriel
I AM VERY SORRY. a repeantent conservatives appologies (Vote suppression admission)
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=2664840&mesg_id=2664840&page=

Edited to add: Oh, and while I'm at it -- does NO ONE look at these, at all??

VOTE FRAUD Links - a DU Compendium
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=201&topic_id=1984#

VOTE FRAUD Links Compendium - Thread #2
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=201x3223
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Chili Donating Member (832 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-19-04 05:05 PM
Response to Reply #22
24. yes, I read them!
...and that's the first time I've seen that "I am sorry" thread - was that legit? That poster got tombstoned, so was he a troll, just pulling our collective legs, or did he step out of line or start arguing?

What we need is someone like that to be willing to testify to what he and others did. It's sorely needed.
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Helga Scow Stern Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-20-04 05:29 PM
Response to Reply #22
25. Thank you for these excellent compendiums, Eloriel.
I am learning how to use them.
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