What is the PLAN to make Diebold RIP?

[goclark]

? ? ?

I sincerely want to know. :shrug:


I posted the thread below in my DU Journal in May 2006,that's 2 years ago!

What has really happened to CHANGE one damn thing?!

Please tell me because I just can't see the tyoe of progress that we will need to win in November.


http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=203x424195#424205


I read all these flowing words about red states/blue states but what progress have we really made to stop this election from being stolen?

I must admit that this is the 1st post that I have made to this forum but this is the only Forum that truly matters now.

Survey USA and Gallup can't tell us a damn thing if the fix is in.

[Fredda Weinberg]

1. Let us start w/facts. Diebold hasn't used malicious code anywhere and

is getting out of the election business all together. But if you check your ATM or bank safe, it will probably have their name on it. They do, in fact, know something about security ... but I've seen the code they purchased for their election systems ... not professional at all.

[goclark]

2. So if you are sure that we don't have to worry about the

machines, should we just rest and feel secure that our precious VOTE is going to count?

[Wilms]

3. I'm not sure I understand your question.

Thanks to some shoddy advocacy by some election reformers, Diebold is solely associated with voting irregularities in the mind of many.

Not that Diebold shouldn't be on the short list. But there are a number of other vendors too. So I'm not sure if you meant to exclude them.

Then there are the voting machine types. Worst is touchscreen and pushbutton DREs (Direct Recording Electronics) without a voter verified paper audit trail, followed closely by the ones with a VVPAT. Next is the utterly and easily hackable Optical Scan that many cherish because they get to fill out a paper ballot. Nevermind the paper ballot will never be audited or hand-counted in most jurisdictions.

There's more. But let's start there and you can tell us more about what you're asking. The fact is, this stuff is a little bit complicated. Understandable, but a bit complicated. It takes a few paragraphs to get the conversation started.

And Fredda may have examined code, but there's no telling what code she saw or is in a given machine...or if it's been corrupted since Fredda and her buddies proclaimed nothing to see here and just move along. For What it's Worth, I've learned that often Fredda Weinberg is Wrong about these kinds of things.

[goclark]

19. I didn't mean to exclude anyone

I just referred to them because it was familiar to one and all.

All I am seeking is Plain Talk answers for those that are simply trying to find ways to inform the masses of voters what to do leading up to the election.


I want 7-11 answers to complicated questions.

Thanks for any help you can give us.

[Wilms]

21. 7-11 is a bit difficult.

But below I mention Swing States as important to be concerned with. Elsewhere I mentioned the various machine-types at issue. I also made a reference to recount laws being a factor.

All this is telling me the forum could use a thread where we zero in on the swing states, their machinery and laws, and try to assemble recommendations for them.

Perhaps I'll post one soon.

If you have a sense of the swing states, please post them. For instance, DemoDonkey is in PA, probably a swing state, and would have a lot of insight into strategy for voting there.

[grantcart]

4. Thank you for reminding us of this problem

The problem I see is that it is very technical and so until you have a whistle blower from the inside its going to be very hard to prove. It also requires an extensive consipiracy.

It is a potential problem and in my mind there is a simple fail safe cure - vote by absentee ballot.

It creates a solid paper trail and can be easily recounted.

In Washington State most voting is done by mail and in Oregon its 100% by mail.

If we can get all of our people to vote by absentee ballot it seems that it would provide a solution.

I don't think there is time (or money) to change voting technology before the election.

[Wilms]

5. Pardon. But I think you'd find reasoned opposition to a number of your claims.

You obviously are unfamiliar with a number of hacks that would have a large-scale effect and that need a single person to initiate.

You are unaware, apparently, of all the security issues surrounding absentee voting despite how well it may actually work in some regions.

And while a paper ballot can be recounted, it may not be. Some people seem unaware of a particularly disappointing scene in Florida after the 2000 election.

If there is paper less touch screens, you may have a point. But your "simple fail safe cure" is in serious need of reexamination (the words simple, fail safe, and cure, are the tip-off). Please pardon my rudeness, but I've failed to type up a polite response to posts like your that show up a few times per month. Your suggestion may well put people's votes at risk.

Don't take my word for it, but a little research is certainly in order.

[goclark]

6. Then what can work?

Can you point us to the research that is Fail Safe that we can work to make happen in Our Towns in November?

Do you have any links for us?

Thanks :patriot:

[Wilms]

9. I'm not aware of a cure-all.

I'm aware that some methods are worse than others.

If I had my way the election would be hand-counted and then subjected to a risk-based audit.

Failing that (and we will because HCPB is not ready for widespread use) an optically scanned election subjected to a risk-based audit.

This won't happen this year. A single state has a risk-based audit on the books but awaits the paper trail one must have in order to audit. That's NJ.

For this election I'd say the key is poll working/watching and get out the vote efforts.

[goclark]

14. I hope that Obama will have a great plan

when I attend the GOTV training session.

I am extremely concerned that people will think that the Machines issue is finished and repaired and that this election will be worry free.

I believe this is the #1 Issue.


We can get out thousands of new voters

We can poll watch ( which I have done for the last six elections) and the November surprise can still hit us.

[Wilms]

15. Obama will need many plans.

States run the elections. And that's if it's not the county. They make the rules and procedures to a great degree. And there are many different approaches.

So the first questions should be what state, and what equipment, and what political environment are we looking at. Is no-fault absentee even available? Will an absentee drive become fodder for "vote-fraud claiming" repubs? Are poll votes hand-counted, while absentee opscanned? All these questions (and more) must be looked at if one is serious about making the best choice.

I'm not sure why anyone should think the system is secure. Though I figure the likely landslide for Obama could have the downside of making people think so.

As has been pointed out, the counting of the ballot is still a major issue. So if you fill out a ballot at the poll or at home, the optical scanner could still mishandle your vote. In Riverside CA, absentee's were given to election workers so that they could enter the choices into a touchscreen!!! So much for the ad hoc "bust the machine" campaign a poster was running here thinking, quite magically, that if it's a touchscreen jurisdiction with absentee available, you vote absentee and avoid the touchscreen. Splat like a mosquito on a windshield.

There's no easy answer. And to be candid, we get a lot of visitors here who seem to be asking for one. It just doesn't work that way. Sorry. :(

[goclark]

16. I hope you don't consider me a visitor. I've been at DU since 2004

And I believe that answers - hard or easy are important.

[Wilms]

17. I was only referring to the election reform forum.

And I figured from the question that you were beginning to study the election system problem.

And yes, grantcart made a reference to a "simple fail safe cure", that concerned me. That was the nature of my "no easy answer" comment.

[goclark]

18. I reviewed the posts at this forum before posting

originally.

I could see by the degree of expertise needed to post that it would be difficult for me to post here without getting talked to in a manner that made me feel insecure.

I am looking for information from people with technical knowledge that can express their knowledge to those without the background.


I am looking for someone that can tell others what to do in their States...
What to tell their friends, especially Seniors and 1st time voters what to do.

Perhaps this is not the forum for me.

Maybe I could find help in the General Discussion forum :shrug:

[Wilms]

20. I'm not in charge of your feelings.

And I did start out asking you questions so that I felt I understood your question well enough to offer some help. Yes. I was trying to gauge your level of knowledge specifically so I could accordingly calibrate a response. That you might feel insecure as a result is beyond my control.

I think, too, that you were offered some information that's helpful. On top of that, much of that helpful info wasn't stock one size fits all answers but, rather, questions to help you zero in. If there's something I could have done to be more helpful, please let me know.

Finally, I think it's reasonable to add to the other info offered that it really is the swing states to be concerned about. For the presidential race one may need not worry about California or Idaho, but Florida, PA, and Ohio are probably another story.

[goclark]

22. Thank you

[grantcart]

7. name me a single confirmed instance of a security problem with absentee ballots as a result of a

conspiracy to fix an election

Absentee ballots are handled by numerous city employees and collected into a secure area and then counted with representatives of both parties present.

There may be cases of mishandling and problems in a particular municipality due to incompetence but to suggest that multiple consipiracies could be tied together in numerous states involving not only dozens of political operatives but hundreds of city employees that include people of all parties is ridiculous.

I get my absentee ballot and personally hand it to poll officials in front of representatives of both parties.

Absentee voting is a safe way to make sure your vote has a paper trail and is counted.

You are free to engage in all of the wild tinfoil spinning hysteria you want, but a simple solution is available to all of those that are using voting methods that do not include a paper trail. The idea that vast numbers of absentee ballots could be seized and destroyed at multiple locations at the same time is silly.

[Wilms]

8. Do you want to consider calming down and taking your insult-laden projections back?

I'm not in the mood. OK?

[grantcart]

10. Well the whole premise of your bizarre discussion is that you have a better

perspective than Obama who is not only a constitutional expert, been through numerous campaigns in a practical way, challenged the legality of people who did not follow election law exactly in his Illinois campaigns and has been absolutely relentless in securing all of the legal challenges in all of the primaries to date.

But you know better than they do.


The reason that you are entitled to the insults is because I have worked as a poll worker and I have seen how absentee ballots are handled, the transperancy of the system and the fact that the system involves non political city employees under the eyes of observers from both parties. Any system could involve fraud. Absentee ballots offer the best and simplest way for people to ensure that their ballots are handled correctly, counted and are retained for a recount.

If ballots are taken away after the vote the totals will show that something nefarious has happened. It is also something that people can actually do. Your crticism is not only warrantless it also discourages people from taking a practical step that significantly increases the likelihood that their vote will be tampered with.

On the other hand you have offered people who are concerned about their vote in 150 days from now nothing practical to do.

[OnTheOtherHand]

11. huh?

This is not the exact form of Buddhism to which I am accustomed.

[Wilms]

12. I think it's commendable that you volunteered as a poll worker.

[goclark]

13. Thanks grantcart

I want to know what to do because I am going to work on a GOTV Team and I will be encouraging new voters....

Sorry to say I had a family emergency and was not able to make the first training session but I will be there for the next.

I will ask them for suggestions as well.

Here is part of the training information from the website....

Please join Obama for America volunteers as we roll out this new program to train volunteers to Captain Voter Reg. events around the Los Angeles area. We will be targeting events and locations that are likely good for registering new voters (your suggestions are welcome and encouraged!), and we need volunteers to step up to help train new volunteers in Voter Registration. Whether you've been a Precinct Captain, Field Team Member, or you just signed up to volunteer today, please come, all are welcome! Please bring a clipboard, pad and a pen! We will also have Obama gear (yard signs (finally!) and buttons (100% of proceeds go towards buying more Obama gear to get out into the community.) Thanks!

:patriot:

[BeFree]

23. Go Clark

Uhmmm, there are quite a few threads here with solutions.

The question is: what have you done and are doing, besides harping on us?