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liam_laddie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-10-08 03:28 PM
Original message
Two observations from an Iowa caucus
Sorry for these being some days behind the curve, but just received them. First is from an Iowa resident, second from an Ohio resident who volunteered in Cedar Rapids for several days. Not an encouraging read about democracy in action.


(This was originally posted as a reply to 'Edwards/Obama Deceptive Numbers' in a local Iowa blog.)
My husband and I were the caucus chair and precinct captain respectively,in our precinct. There is much misunderstanding of the caucus process in the public and in the media. The caucus process benefitted Edwards in that rural communities are given more power than if individual votes are counted as in a primary. However, there are SERIOUS problems with the Iowa caucuses...

First of all, the ONLY requirement to caucus here, is that you must have lived in Iowa for 10 days. You do NOT need to show ID, you do NOT need to show proof of residency upon registering at the caucus site. How many of you knew this? It is strictly an honor system. Your signature is an afidavit and if you are falsely signing in, there is a fine of several thousand dollars. However, this is virtually unenforcable. As a result, especially in the chaos of the huge Jan 3rd turnout, people caucused who should not have. It's easy. For example, visit a friend or relative for Christmas (more than 10 days before 01/03) and stay to caucus. We've lived in our neighborhood 10 years and I grew up here. We've been canvassing for months. (In other words, we are familiar with most folks in our neighborhood.) 2004 saw a record turnout in our tiny precinct of 60 some people, this year 139. Of the 61 Obama supporters at our caucus, 47 were unregistered, 15 had no ID with them (not required, remember) and 2 of them talked openly with each other about being from California and Wisconsin. And before anyone calls me a racist, almost all of us present at the caucus, including Obama supporters, were of the same color. The caucus chair called the Iowa Democratic Party hotline with concerns about lots of people with no ID that did not appear to be from the neighborhood - again, NOT BASED ON COLOR - and was told that chaos was happening all over the state and that there was basically nothing to be done. Does Obama deserve credit for having a phenomenal grassroots organization? Absolutely, yes. Did his campaign have non-Iowans caucusing? I believe, yes. Were there enough to determine the outcome? We'll never know. The national Democratic party should become involved in figuring out a fair way to regulate the Iowa caucuses. How about a 30 day residency requirement with proof of residency required at caucus site (like a utility bill)? With Iowa wielding this much power, this problem cannot be ignored.


Many of us there saw funny business -
I was an Edwards volunteer and observer at a precinct. The caucus chair didn't let anyone get up to speak on behalf of their candidates. I was beyond appalled when I learned that no ID or proof of residence in that precinct was required, and that students from anywhere could caucus if they "went to school in Iowa", and that there's nothing to stop them from voting again in their home state. Numerous other participants in other precincts had horror stories- Obama got one third of the space when 8 candidate contingents were present. Illinois license plates abounded in parking lots of caucus locations. One precinct captain said Obama people literally walled in undecideds with their bodies to "persuade" them. The Obama people had no clue about the math calculations and would raise objections until the chairs pointed out that this was how it worked. The county our precinct was in had expressly forbidden food to be brought in- then Clinton and Obama camps brought food and no one did anything.
We asked staff at our office if these irregularities could be reported, as there were numerous witnesses- they said it was over and done. I went home to OH and told people that what I saw in IA made OH in 2004 look like a model election. I have been just sick about this. It is beyond ridiculous that the Iowa caucus process which is rife with opportunity to commit fraud is given so much weight. The boost and the bragging rights that Obama got from "winning" are the only reason he did well in NH. I feel like everyone's afraid to say a single critical thing about him because he's black- but no one worried about bashing a woman, did they?


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crispini Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-10-08 03:30 PM
Response to Original message
1. Although it's anecdotal evidence,
a friend of mine went up to Iowa to volunteer for Kuchinich four years ago. She told me that she saw a very similar number of flaws in the system. In fact she wrote an article about it.... let me go see if I can dig it up.
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crispini Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-10-08 03:38 PM
Response to Reply #1
4. Found it!

At the caucus: Don't order the fettuccine
Alexi Bonifield

On Jan. 7, I boarded Amtrak in Colfax, joining other passionate souls heading east on a "Peace Train" to support our Democrat of choice in the Iowa Presidential Caucus. In Des Moines, we disembarked to spread the gospel of fearless paradigm change and participate in a grassroots American process: the Iowa Caucus.

(snip)
Afterwards, I realized I could have been counted in all three precincts if I'd chosen to abuse the system. Many people wandered in unchallenged. Were they counted? Was this scenario an isolated case of lax enforcement, or how the caucus works? If so, what do the final delegate tallies actually represent as an electoral indicator?

At my candidate's post-caucus party, I learned this "irregularity" had occurred elsewhere. In one precinct, our preference group was viable at first. After 7 p.m., a rush of people poured in, blending with the crowd. In spite of our group's protest, the precinct chair insisted on a recount - that the new arrivals were "on the honor system," hence legal. Our group lost viability.

A long-time precinct captain told me she did not recognize half the people at her caucus location. When I asked if the newcomers checked out, she shrugged, "Hope so; it was too chaotic to know for sure."

more....

http://www.theunion.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20040130/OPINION/101300086


Read the whole thing, it's good and substantiates your findings.
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AX10 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-10-08 03:31 PM
Response to Original message
2. The Iowa caucus's are a sham.
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Critters2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-10-08 09:27 PM
Response to Reply #2
23. Because your candidate came in third? nt
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AX10 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-11-08 12:23 AM
Response to Reply #23
29. Were the New Hampshire results fraudulent because Hillary won?
That's been a common theme around here.
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murbley40 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-11-08 09:07 AM
Response to Reply #23
30. Hey, who knows,
Edited on Fri Jan-11-08 09:08 AM by murbley40
Maybe your candidate would have done even better if there were not so many irregularities. I.m beginning to think the whole American election system is a sham.
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LisaM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-10-08 03:34 PM
Response to Original message
3. I wonder if there is a way to track how the precincts closest to Illinois went
It's a pretty short drive to stack a caucus if that's all it takes.

In the Washington state caucus (let me just say, I detest the caucus system) we have to show voter ID and declare a party.
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1corona4u Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-10-08 07:04 PM
Response to Reply #3
14. I'll work on it, and get back to you...
I did one for Biden. This should be very interesting now that you mentioned it...
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1corona4u Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-10-08 09:03 PM
Response to Reply #3
17. Well, that was interesting....
I should make this it's own topic...

Here is a map showing who won each county;



That made me curious as to what cities/roads were nearby, so I did an overlay;




A couple of other interesting observations; the farther west the win for Obama, the smaller the gap between him and the winner. Most of the 'wins' were between 10 & 300 votes. In the counties to the east, the gap between him and the 2nd place candidate were much larger;

Linn County; 2891
Johnson County; 3885
Black Hawk County; 1727
Story County; 1069
Polk County(Des Moines);3848
Scott County; 2678



Interesting indeed.
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BootinUp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-10-08 10:39 PM
Response to Reply #17
27. fascinating. nt
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9119495 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-11-08 09:08 AM
Response to Reply #17
31. The eastern part of the state is most Democratic and
includes Illinois TV markets so people are more aware of Barak Obama.

But go ahead and think it is fraud.

It's interesting that you did not point out that New Hampshire is very close to New York, Clinton's current home state. Why is is only like an hour long drive. Looks like we have some serious shenanigans going on with the Hillary Clinton campaign!

Why can't we just agree that Obama won Iowa fairly, with high turnout (awesome), new voters (awesome), and previously apathetic voters (awesome)? I certainly think Clinton's win in New Hampshire was genuine.
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Debi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-11-08 12:11 PM
Response to Reply #31
32. Let's not forget that the majority of Iowans live in the eastern 39 counties of Iowa
Edited on Fri Jan-11-08 12:28 PM by Debi
and that the majority of Iowa colleges and universities are also in those 3 congressional districts.

Not that the fact that the majority of Iowa young people also live in those congressional districts and in those college towns should stop a good conspiracy theory!



Congressional Districts


Just a small amount of colleges and Universities in Iowa


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windbreeze Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-10-08 10:33 PM
Response to Reply #3
26. Yes, we do.....
I had never experienced anything quite like a caucus....until 2004....I wasn't the least bit impressed, having a primary seems to make more sense, and be much more direct...caucuses seem antiquated to me and didn't seem quite...ahhhh, fair, for lack of a better word....wb
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-10-08 03:45 PM
Response to Original message
5. Will these be banished to the election forum? n/t
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Fresh_Start Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-10-08 03:50 PM
Response to Original message
6. I didn't know about the short residency requirement
and complete honor system....

I was worried about crowd psychology and self-selecting audience because I know I WOULD NEVER caucus myself. I figured it would be like a frat party on campus. but I didn't question the legitimacy.
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IA_Seth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-10-08 04:37 PM
Response to Original message
7. I'll try to explain this.. for the last time...
Edited on Thu Jan-10-08 05:26 PM by IA_Seth

First of all, the ONLY requirement to caucus here, is that you must have lived in Iowa for 10 days. You do NOT need to show ID, you do NOT need to show proof of residency upon registering at the caucus site. How many of you knew this? It is strictly an honor system. Your signature is an afidavit and if you are falsely signing in, there is a fine of several thousand dollars. However, this is virtually unenforcable. As a result, especially in the chaos of the huge Jan 3rd turnout, people caucused who should not have. It's easy. For example, visit a friend or relative for Christmas (more than 10 days before 01/03) and stay to caucus. We've lived in our neighborhood 10 years and I grew up here. We've been canvassing for months. (In other words, we are familiar with most folks in our neighborhood.) 2004 saw a record turnout in our tiny precinct of 60 some people, this year 139. Of the 61 Obama supporters at our caucus, 47 were unregistered, 15 had no ID with them (not required, remember) and 2 of them talked openly with each other about being from California and Wisconsin. And before anyone calls me a racist, almost all of us present at the caucus, including Obama supporters, were of the same color. The caucus chair called the Iowa Democratic Party hotline with concerns about lots of people with no ID that did not appear to be from the neighborhood - again, NOT BASED ON COLOR - and was told that chaos was happening all over the state and that there was basically nothing to be done. Does Obama deserve credit for having a phenomenal grassroots organization? Absolutely, yes. Did his campaign have non-Iowans caucusing? I believe, yes. Were there enough to determine the outcome? We'll never know. The national Democratic party should become involved in figuring out a fair way to regulate the Iowa caucuses. How about a 30 day residency requirement with proof of residency required at caucus site (like a utility bill)? With Iowa wielding this much power, this problem cannot be ignored.


First of all, you need to remember that caucus chairs are not officers of the law. We (I was one) are not employees of the county auditor's office, we aren't cops, we are unpaid volunteers who are running a PARTY FUNCTION (as opposed to a state-run election) designed to build the party and choose our nominee. By filling out a new voter registration card the person is filling out a sworn affadavit and if filled out fraudulently the fine is about $7500.. I don't see how you would expect anyone to actual verify residency without disenfranchising new voters. We allow homeless to caucus, what utility bill would they have? What if my room mate had the utilities in their name? What if I was a recent resident and I didnt have an in-state ID? Should we tell them that they don't count? Sure, we could set up registration deadlines similar to those used in some elections, but Iowa would rather build our party and trust our party members to abide by the law, not 2nd guess every newcomer.

And what's with all the defensive crap about being of the same color?



was an Edwards volunteer and observer at a precinct. The caucus chair didn't let anyone get up to speak on behalf of their candidates. I was beyond appalled when I learned that no ID or proof of residence in that precinct was required, and that students from anywhere could caucus if they "went to school in Iowa", and that there's nothing to stop them from voting again in their home state. Numerous other participants in other precincts had horror stories- Obama got one third of the space when 8 candidate contingents were present. Illinois license plates abounded in parking lots of caucus locations. One precinct captain said Obama people literally walled in undecideds with their bodies to "persuade" them. The Obama people had no clue about the math calculations and would raise objections until the chairs pointed out that this was how it worked. The county our precinct was in had expressly forbidden food to be brought in- then Clinton and Obama camps brought food and no one did anything.


The caucus chair didn't let people speak? The caucus chair doesn't have to do anything but follow the rules in the caucus guide. As my precinct's caucus chair I did ask the captains of each campaign (and for those without captains, the designated 'Leader') and they weren't interested. Perhaps this anonymous writer was at my precinct?

There IS something to stop them from voting in their "home state", its called the law! What the hell keeps me from doing anything illegal?

"numerous other participants in other precinct had horror stories".. sure ok, more anonymous BS.

Obama got a third of the space? OBAMA GOT A THIRD OF THE FREAKIN VOTE TOO! Of COURSE we'd have to make room for his supporters, that's a complete non-issue and leads me to believe that the person writing this doesn't even care to understand the process.

Illinois license plates in the parking lot? I guess I am assuming this observer from Ohio has a Ohio license plate on their car? What the hell does that have to do with anything? Perhaps Obama had an observer or two as well? Perhaps students originally from neighboring Illinois haven't changed their registration? Another non-issue.

I bet that food made a difference though, maybe you are on to something. The Edwards camp brought cookies, those bastards, and got 3 of my precinct's 7 delegates! I knew they were up to something!



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Debi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-10-08 05:06 PM
Response to Reply #7
8. What about the folks that poisoned youthere? You KNOW something was up!
You're a good guy, Seth. :hi:
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youthere Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-10-08 05:44 PM
Response to Reply #7
9. I think the food was there to "take out" the competition!
Bastards tried with me, but I still finished caucus!
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IA_Seth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-10-08 06:29 PM
Response to Reply #9
11. The food definitely "delivered" for Edwards in my precinct!
I couldn't resist.
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Debi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-10-08 06:54 PM
Response to Reply #11
13. Man, I brought 6 dozen cookies and Joe Biden didn't get a delegate out of my precinct
x( no return on THAT investment!

(At least I didn't get poisoned...of course I didn't eat the Clinton supporters food :7)
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Critters2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-10-08 09:12 PM
Response to Reply #13
18. Clintonistas brought kringla in Eagle. KRINGLA!!!!
You KNOW that was just to bribe the 'wegians!!
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Counciltucky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-10-08 06:20 PM
Response to Reply #7
10. Show 'em, Seth!
Maybe they should change the rules from "10 days" to "30 days," but it isn't necessary.
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Debi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-10-08 06:52 PM
Response to Reply #10
12. except for Iowa has same-day you moran
:eyes:
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Counciltucky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-10-08 11:16 PM
Response to Reply #12
28. Very true, good point
Well it's a party function and not an official voting function anyway, so if the party wants to change the rules, it can do so however it wants.

Anyone who bitches about the caucus should probably stop and think: Do we really want to go back to the days of the "smoke-filled backroom"?
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justgamma Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-10-08 07:55 PM
Response to Original message
15. 15 had no ID with them (not required, remember
How did they know they didn't have ID if they didn't ask?

Somebody at the caucus knows everybody. Total out of towners would be quickly seen,.

The participants must register and the vote counts need to match the registered participants. Nobody can sneak in and vote.

Guess what! The Hillary supporters that brought cookies share with the Edwards supporters and the Edwards supporters that brought cookies shared with the Obama supporters. It's a party building experiance.

Did anyone tell you that we also work on what we would like to see on the platform? We elect county officers and delegates. When do the people that have primaries do the electing of officers?
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liam_laddie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-10-08 08:11 PM
Response to Reply #15
16. Comment from the OP
Edited on Thu Jan-10-08 08:39 PM by liam_laddie
The Ohio volunteer/observer said there were 249 at the caucus she observed. Her comments referenced were mainly to communicate, to those who are interested, that the caucus system has many weak points in procedure and adherence to 'the rules.' I wonder if someone would, as you say, really know everybody there.
Please re-read part one, written by Iowans who were part of that caucus' management team... And here's a link to a blog by and about Iowans for Edwards, and their caucus experiences. Process sounds "hackable" to me...
<http://blog.johnedwards.com/story/2008/1/9/18523/95650#19>
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Critters2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-10-08 09:15 PM
Response to Reply #15
19. Good point. People who don't caucus don't get this.
The caucuses are NOT public elections!! They are party meetings. The party decides who gets in, who votes, what ID to require. And all of those present participate in party decision-making. Unlike primary states, where I show up, claim to be a Dem, am handed a ballot, vote, go home. And people I don't know at meetings I'm not aware of elect officers and conduct other business. Give me the caucuses any day!!
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1corona4u Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-10-08 09:22 PM
Response to Reply #19
21. You don't 'claim to be a dem' in a primary
Edited on Thu Jan-10-08 09:24 PM by 1corona4u
you have to be registered AS a dem 30 days before the election. At least you do in Florida. And by the way, we are required to have our voter regristration card in hand.

I'll refrain from commenting further on the caucuses......
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Critters2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-10-08 09:26 PM
Response to Reply #21
22. In Illinois, you walk in and ask for a ballot from one party or the other.
People who never participate in any other party function ask for a Dem ballot. In Iowa, you really participate in the life of the party.
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liam_laddie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-10-08 10:03 PM
Response to Reply #19
25. As OP, let me say...
The OP was simply two posts: one from Iowans who were the managers of their precinct caucus; they had problems. One from an observer from Ohio who knew the rules and they were NOT followed at this same caucus. It seems there is a wide range of adherence to caucus rules. Many were let in the door after 7p.m., etc. There were something like 1,800 caucuses in Iowa that night, no way all could have been run strictly according to the book. Some people who shouldn't have, voted. YMMV... -30-
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Critters2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-10-08 09:20 PM
Response to Original message
20. One of those Illinois license plates was mine.
I was visiting in the town in Iowa where I used to live (Eagle Grove). I drove a friend--an elderly Edwards supporter--to the caucus site. I went in and sat near the back of my old precinct, with other non-voters--two campaign workers (One Edwards, one Obama) and a good friend who has not completed his citizenship process yet. I knew that I could not legally vote and I didn't try. I doubt anyone else did either.

Did party workers know everyone in the room? Hell, I knew everyone in the room, and I haven't lived there for three years! These are neighborhood party meetings, not impersonal elections.

Why would you assume the Democratic Party of Iowa isn't competent to run its own affairs?
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Honeycombe8 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-10-08 09:29 PM
Response to Original message
24. If you have problems with IA state laws re voter ID and such, you need to write to...
Edited on Thu Jan-10-08 09:31 PM by indie_ana_500
your state officials.

It sounds like you might be in favor of the Republican effort to require picture voter I.D.s for all voters in the nation.

Also...I knew ages ago that the Obama people would be encouraging students to vote for him. It was discussed openly on TV. IA students can vote there, regardless of where they are from. That is an IA state law that has been in effect since forever, I presume.

Finally, I SAW A PRECINCT CAUCUS FROM START TO FINISH ON CSPAN. It was very organized and orderly. I was impressed by the process (but glad we don't have to do that in my state - who has that kind of time?). All the supporters had ample time to wander around the room and try to convince the supporters for the small groups to join them. And the small groups did..they dispersed to Obama, Clinton, and Edwards groups (but mainly Obama's).

It sounds like these people have a beef with their state's laws, rather than with the Obama campaign. The Obama campaign did nothing illegal or even unethical. If IA wants to change its laws, that is Iowa's business.
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