Clerks cast doubt on new election machines

[kster]

Saturday, December 2, 2006

By PAUL BRUBAKER
HERALD NEWS

SNIP....County clerks have the decisive function of certifying election results, assuring that only the will of the voters delivered those elected to public office. The trouble is electronic voting machines, including Passaic County's AVC Advantage machines manufactured by Sequoia Voting Systems Inc. of Oakland, Calif., tally votes with proprietary software that no county official can access.

That can leave a county clerk feeling uncertain even after an election is certified.

"How do I prove that all of the votes have been counted properly? How do we determine whether the software is working properly?" Brown asked. "We have to rely on the vendor and their software."

SNIP....To Stuart Hutchison of Wayne, who was in the audience, there was an easy solution to all of the digital complications.

"We ought to look at doing away with the machines and have paper-only balloting," Hutchinson said.




http://www.northjersey.com/page.php?qstr=eXJpcnk3ZjczN2Y3dnFlZUVFeXkzNTcmZmdiZWw3Zjd2cWVlRUV5eTcwMjk3MTAmeXJpcnk3ZjcxN2Y3dnFlZUVFeXkz

[IndyOp]

1. Paper ballots with machine & hand counts... (n/t)

:kick:

[kster]

2. We agree on two things but,

I just can't get past letting a company that machine counts millions of dollars, to the penny, each day with their ATM's, but when it comes to counting votes they can't get it right, they have had years of experience building their currency counting machines, that they have no excuse not to get the vote counting machines right, but they do, time and time again.

Whats wrong with two automatic, mandatory counts, machine and hand count. It keeps everyone honest and if the voting machine makers know they are going to be checked they will make an effort to start getting it right.

[BeFree]

3. Show me

Show me one machine count system that I can trust to count the votes correctly, IndyOp. You keep saying we need machine counts, well, show me one machine that can be relied upon.

[autorank]

4. Hey you...my official back from vacation first post...

Collect all the machines, put them in large dumpsters, then sprinkle them with Thermite (I'm mixing conspiracy metaphors here), have a big Bonn fire and be done with them.

There we have a "triad" (another obscure reference) of interests:

1) An observable, reliable, audi table election system - modern paper ballots are the only solution. Who cares what the bits and bytes people say.

2) An absolute end to any and all forms of voter suppression and voter disenfranchisement - minority and poor people are the victims of this and I maintain and others prove that they're also the primary targets for lousy equipment.

3) Federally funded elections without any outside money ... NONE.

That's the election integrity holy trinity...wine anyone?

[BeFree]

6. Welcome back, Admiral!

What we have here is a culture of corruption that has set itself against the people having the say in who shall govern the people. The culture has bred the machine mentallity which has built this wall between the people and their vote. Our job is to tear down that wall. Blow it up. Destroy it.

Allowing any piece of that wall to remain standing is an injustice and a democratic travesty.

[autorank]

12. It's time for a Cyber Tea Party...toss 'em over board...

...and let them sink to the bottom. Now we have the governor of Florida coming out for VVPB...that state I named was FLORIDA...Republicans support VVPB. So that's quite an endorsement isn't it.

Avast the mainsail...we're headed for port;)

[BeFree]

18. Well

Do we take them as prisoners and feed them, or do we make them walk the plank?

I think we can make them slaves and get them to start rowing. With just a bit more speed we may be able to simply ram the S.S. Diebold and sink it once and for all.

You say we have captured one of their generals? Success is a sweet elixir, eh?

[autorank]

20. We treat those machines as humanely as organic butchers treat

their live stock...heck, just recycle the suckers...

Oh, that fellow in Florida with the very right wing appealing name, Gov Crist...

You can be sure that if he supports VVPB, there is a world of harm coming our way from VVPB.

[IndyOp]

5. Never, ever machine counts. Machine + Hand Counts. (n/t)

[BeFree]

7. Which machine?

Show me one machine that can be trusted.

[IndyOp]

8. I don't intend to trust any machine, any election official, and certainly

not any vendor. I intend to verify the machine count by a hand count. And I will ask you what I ask everyone who is fixed on 100% hand counts as the solution: Have you spoken to your local election officials?

[BeFree]

9. Heck

You can't show me any machine?

I have talked to my local yokels, and they don't even want an audit.

Too bad, they will count the votes by hand, at least in federal elections. HR 6200 must become the law of the land.

Don't you think?

[IndyOp]

10. BeFree - I am currently working to help draft a new state law that

will require all counties in my state to have voter-verified paper ballots and mandatory manual random audits -- with a WHOLE lot more citizen participation and oversight.

If we get the law requiring voter-verified paper ballots THEN we can drive up the audit % as high as we can tolerate it -- all the way up to 100% if desired.

I am particularly advocating for optical scan precinct count voting systems because the voter marks a paper ballot and the entire process of voting CAN be software/machine independent if the machines fail to operate on election day and/or if a thorough citizen-involved audit turns up a problem with the machine totals.

It is unlikely that anyone's local yokels will want an audit -- they want to be left alone to hide their mistakes, run their fiefdoms, perhaps commit or allow the commission of election fraud so that they will have the support of the local party chair when it is time for them to go up for re-election.

So... we will have to force that issue.

How likely is it that you are going to get a 100% hand-counted paper ballot system when your local yokels won't even listen to you regarding the necessity of audits?

National legislation that draws the LOUD disapproval of election officials will not pass -- guess who runs the election that will impact that member of Congress/Senate's livelihood?

I love Dennis Kucinich -- sooooooooo much. I see his 100% hand-counted paper ballot bill as being an extreme that he put out there to show the election administrators that optical scan ballots + audits are not such a bad thing.

I think that HR 6200 will only become law of the land if BIG, BIG revelations about election fraud in 2000, 2002, 2004, 2006 hit the corporate media. If Papantonio and Kennedy's lawsuit causes multiple explosive revelations (like the final scene in "V for Vendetta") then HR 6200 may pass.

Just my 2 cents...

[BeFree]

11. Good for you

My state did pass such a law and I think it made a big difference last election. We have audit stuff in the law, but do you think we had audits? Ha!

As to 6200... don't give a shit what the local yokels want or say or do. If enough people get off their punky asses and demand the right thing, we will pass 6200.

Op scan might not be too bad... if we can get a reasonable machine. Since there ain't no such machine the only recourse is to keep asking for HCPB.

You do waht you want to do, but as for me, the best thing for now is HCPB, and that is what I will work toward.

[autorank]

13. Indy, if you soooo love Dennis, believe him. I did. He's a straight shooter

Because I heard him, in the flesh, at the Cleveland "We Count" Conference at the end of September, 31st I bleieve. He rocked the house, raised the roof, knocked it out of the Park far beyond Jacobs Field. He's for real. So was AG Candidate Dann who ended up winning when, earlier that day, he said that as far as he was concerned 2004 ELECTION FRAUD constituted a potential crime that needed investigation (power tha the has as AG due to one of those Blackwell special measures that wone by miracle).

Here's the skinny on Dennis...believe it, it's real. VVPB is activist phenomena. The people, with whom I mix regularly as I'm sure you do, want to throw this all in the trash...all of the machines. They know BS when they see it and they know that ANY COMPUTER device can be rigged. You need a security expert for each device.

AND lets place a warning label on this phrase you used

"...the entire process of voting CAN be software/machine independent..."

Sure it can be "software/machine independent" if they don't use the optical scan COMPUTERS...but they will use them, therefore this phrase is meaningless, entirely and completely. Unless the Diebold, ESS Ryder truck carrying the undoing of democracy turns over on the interstate, those machines will arrive and be used and the potential for fraud will be limited only by expert examination of EVERY SINGLE machine right before and after the count...and even that won't do.


Here's the deal on Dennis:


http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/HL0611/S00399.htm

M. Collins: Paper for President - The Time is NOW
Wednesday, 22 November 2006, 12:26 pm
Opinion: Michael Collins

The Time is NOW

Michael Collins
“Scoop” Independent News
Washington, DC

The United States just endured another election that inspired more suspicion than confidence. Two years after the fiasco of Election 2004 in Ohio and elsewhere, four year years after the never investigated mystery of Georgia 2002, and six years after the disgrace of Florida which saw the loser of the popular vote (s)elected President by the Supreme Court; major problems pervade the US election system. The new problems created by computerized voting and tabulation merge with traditional race and class based election fraud in an assault on free, fair, transparent and inclusive elections.

The Democratic controlled House of Representatives may be 10 to 12 members shy on the left side of the aisle due to election irregularities. Jonathan Simon of the Election Defense Alliance just published a major paper demonstrating that as many as three million votes may be missing from the 2006 election. Problems of this sort were anticipated by internet poster TruthIsAll and this author in a three part series in “Scoop” which developed a vote fraud model that identified likely races for those photo finishes that always seem to put a Republican in office.

VotersUnite.Org produced a database of election irregularities from around the country. Ironically, the creator of the database was John Gideon who predicted many of the problems that he logged in the database. A short list of problems with voting machines in 2006 includes: vote switching from one candidate to another; candidate names simply disappearing from the touch screens; full or partial deletion of candidate names; and a simple failure of voting machines to operate.

The master foul-up occurred in Florida’s 13th Congressional District. More than 17,000 votes were simply lost. Ironically, this seat was just vacated by Katherine Harris, chief election official and Bush campaign chair during Florida’s 2000 presidential election. That race and at least three others remain without a conclusive vote count. A further irony is that the election to replace Harris resulted in a very slim advantage for the Republican candidate with the 17,000 ballots removed from the equation.

Paper for President: House Resolution 6200

Representative Dennis Kucinich, D, Ohio introduced HR 6200 on September 27, 2006. His bill will “ amend the Help America Vote Act of 2002 to require States to conduct Presidential elections using paper ballots and to count those ballots by hand, and for other purposes.”

The main features of the bill include special rules for Presidential elections.

* Presidential elections will be conducted entirely with paper ballots;

* Each precinct will include no more than 500 paper ballots per ballot box;

* Paper ballots will be counted by hand in the precincts where voting takes place and vote counting will be witnessed by a representative of each political party with a candidate on the ballot “as well as any interested member of the public.”

HR 6200 takes the logical step of moving Washington’s birthday celebration to election day during presidential election years making it easier for working people to vote.

If passed, the bill takes effect in time for the November 2008 presidential election.


Rep. Kucinich announced HR 6200 at the
9/06 “We Count” Conference in Cleveland

The Only Viable Alternative for Balloting: A Clear Public Consensus

A Zogby Poll of 1018 likely voters in August 2006 found that 60% are aware of the problems posed by electronic voting, 80% oppose private vendors keeping the operation of their electronic voting devices a trade secret, and 92% support the right of the public to watch vote counting. Other surveys, online and by phone, show that public confidence in US elections is below 50%.

Governor, Ohio, 2006

Democrat Ted Strickland crushed former Republican Secretary of State J. Kenneth Blackwell in the race for Governor but voting problems remain in Ohio and around the country (from CNN).

Rep. Kucinich has first hand experience with the devastating problems caused by election irregularities and fraud. He represents a large part of Cleveland Ohio, the scene of massive voter suppression, voting machine problems, and electronic tabulation irregularities in 2004. While Blackwell, the author of many of those problems, was ejected from the political scene after his humiliating defeat in the race for governor, many problems remain that subvert public confidence and deny citizen rights

The most fundamental election system problems are the total absence of anything resembling a ballot and secret voting and vote counting, all of which characterize touch screen voting systems.

Paper balloting has the advantage of producing ballots that actually exist, can be counted in public, stored indefinitely, and reviewed for purposes of recounting and election auditing. The alternative, so called voter verified paper ballots are appendages of the failed and likely corrupted electronic voting machines that they are supposed to verify. By seeming to correct a problem with touch screen voting, voter verified ballots serve to both enshrine and ratify an electronic voting system that has failed again and again. Proponents of this approach trail public sentiment by a significant degree given the Zogby results, other recent polls, and internet polls where up to 85% consistently vote to cease electronic voting of all kinds.

The Kucinich bill currently has 20 cosponsors. It is one smoking gun election fraud scandal away from passage by acclamation given the current distrust of everything electronic and computerized in our electoral system.

Hand counted paper ballots do not address two other vipers at the throat of US democracy, race and class based voter suppression and private funding of political campaigns. These twin threats to democracy must be addressed as well. However, hand counted paper ballots for presidential elections will provide greater assurance for those who vote that their vote was taken correctly and counted openly in front of witnesses from the political parties and the general public. Under the Kucinich bill, any US citizen reading this article can request and be granted the right to witness vote counting. It’s about time!

END

More information on hand counted paper ballots at Count Every Vote.

Appendix:

House Resolution 6200, Rep. Dennis Kucinich, D, Ohio

109th CONGRESS
2d Session
H. R. 6200
(here or here)

To amend the Help America Vote Act of 2002 to require States to conduct Presidential elections using paper ballots and to count those ballots by hand, and for other purposes.

IN THE HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES
September 27, 2006
---------------------------------------
A BILL

To amend the Help America Vote Act of 2002 to require States to conduct Presidential elections using paper ballots and to count those by hand, and for other purposes.

Be it enacted by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States of America in Congress assembled,

SECTION 1. SHORT TITLE.

This Act may be cited as the Paper Ballot Act of 2006'.

SEC. 2. REQUIRING USE OF HAND-COUNTED PAPER BALLOTS IN PRESIDENTIAL ELECTIONS.

Section 301(a) of the Help America Vote Act of 2002 (42 U.S.C. 15481(a)) is amended by adding at the end the following new paragraph:

`(7) SPECIAL RULES FOR PRESIDENTIAL ELECTIONS- Notwithstanding any other provision of this subsection, in the case of a regularly scheduled general election for the electors of President and Vice President (beginning with the election in November 2008), the following rules shall apply:

`(A) The State shall conduct the election using only paper ballots

`(B) The State shall ensure that the number of ballots cast at a precinct or equivalent location which are placed inside a single box or similar container does not exceed 500.

`(C) The ballots cast at a precinct or equivalent location shall be counted by hand by election officials at the precinct, and a representative of each political party with a candidate on the ballot, as well as any interested member of the public, may observe the officials as they count the ballots. The previous sentence shall not apply with respect to provisional ballots cast under section 302(a).'.

SEC. 3. MOVING OBSERVATION OF WASHINGTON'S BIRTHDAY TO ELECTION DAY DURING PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION YEARS.

Section 6103(a) of title 5, United States Code, is amended—

(1) by inserting ‘the Tuesday next after the first Monday in November in 2008 and every four years thereafter, and after ‘Washington’s Birthday,’
and

(2) by inserting ‘in any other year’ after ‘February’.

*************

©Copyright. Please feel free to reproduce and distribute this in any fashion you feel suitable with an attribution of authorship and the publisher, “Scoop” Independent News, plus a link to the article.

[IndyOp]

14. You are purposively presenting the situation as either/or and it isn't.

No matter how the ballots are cast citizens will HAVE to have the right for meaningful participation to have fair elections.

Getting PAPER means NOTHING if citizens are not there to demand the counting be done fairly. The same is true for casting votes on optical scan ballot cards: running them through the machine & hand counting a sufficient number to make sure the machine count is on the up and up HAS to be supervised by citizens.

Either system - 100% hand counts or optical scan readers + hand-count audits can be done fairly - either can be used to cheat.

If you think citizens can only prevent cheating with 100% hand counts - I disagree.

If your assertion is that election officials WILL use optical scan counters and will not permit meaningful audits -- what is to stop them from preventing meaningful 100% hand counts of paper ballots? Citizens. Citizens can prevent cheating with optical scan readers + audits and/or they can prevent cheating with 100% hand counts.

I teach statistics -- that is why I know that the exit poll/vote count discrepancies we have seen are meaningful. It is also why I know that a CITIZEN SUPERVISED manual, random audit WILL reveal whether or not the optical scan reader count is accurate.

Autorank - Have you talked to your local Board of Elections and/or Election Director yet?

[BeFree]

15. Either, Or

Either you are for 6200, or you aren't. 6200 is a landmark bill that would begin the turn away from machine based elections. I'm sure Dennis would appreciate support for his bill.

When our local yokels have had some experience with HCPB due to 6200 their shyness will evaporate and they too will see that their fears were unfounded.

[IndyOp]

16. I am for optical scan ballots & HR 6200... That is all. (n/t)

[BeFree]

17. I figured as much

Ya know, two years ago my state was considering VVPAT. I told all the local yokels that I was in favor of that, and more. Except for the few that were total machine heads, they agreed that the present systems were inadequate.

I lobbied everyone concerned about the matter and with others working to the same ends from other places in the state, we managed to get rid of paperless voting. Two years ago. Good to see you making progress in your state.

Now it's time for the next step - 6200 will get nothing but paper and humans with a foot in the door. And we can do it from sea to shining sea, if we can all get together and make it happen.

Leave machines out of the presidential elections and the local yokels will see that all paper is a huge, inexpensive, accountable, and publicly controllable way for the government to establish they have our consent.

[autorank]

19. Excuse me but it is either - or in one important area, one never responded to.

Optical scan machines are computers? Yes they are.

They have memory? Yes they do.

They are managed by people who, depending on their access to and handling of the machines, can
possibly alter one, several or all of the machines? Yes they can.

So here we are. In order to ensure that none of the optical scans get tampered with,

***you must examine each and every one before, during and after tabulation***.

There is no other way around it. That may seem extreme but all of the rationales for this
have been made before.

It doesn't matter who owns or services the optical scan computing electronic vote tabulation machines does it? No because they can still be tampered with by those proximate to some part of the process of handling the memory and equipment.

What an impractical and risky system it is that requires highly skilled forensic computer experts to look at every single machine.

Lets settle the audit issue re optical scan ballots once & for all.

Audits are meaningless because they are not automatic, not available to all of the public and not guaranteed. Look at how well they did with VVPB audits this time around...so far as I know, not one VVPB - mandatory VVPB + mandatory AUDITS - had an election that was impacted by that lovely paired contrivance. And you should know that joining the VVPB movement is no less than the new Governor of Florida, Republican Crist...priceless. Florida Republicans now support VVPB. Now why would they do that?

To say that optical scans are the equivalent of paper ballots is not at all accurate. It takes about a 75 IQ and either decent vision to verify that paper ballots have not been tampered with. It takes the US Postal Service handling the delivery and collection of paper ballots to assure security. The ability to massively impact paper ballots is really difficult because it's manual and paper intensive.

I'm happy to hear about optical scans but not happy to see them sold here or elsewhere on the basis of arguments that they are equivalent. That's like saying you can get mugged in Mayberry as well as you can in Manhattan...true, but anybody who knows anything knows you're more likely to get mugged in Manhattan (which I prefer none the less;).

They are not equivalent systems as I've pointed out. They are both vulnerable to fraud but in the case of any computerized system, the fraud is far more efficient and more difficult and expensive to catch.

Here's a nice resource on the varieties of machine fraud.

Empirically based study