Some thoughts on the potential scale of all this

[ahyums]

Hi, I’m new here, having just started posting today, although I’ve been lurking here since a few weeks before the election. I’m British, but have had a long term deep interest in American politics to the extent that, bizarre as it may seem if I were to describe myself as belonging to a party, it would be the Democrats. I’ve also studied US politics and history extensively at university and did my degree dissertation on LBJ, the Great Society and Vietnam, I would love, at some point, to have the opportunity to go over to America and work for Democrats in some capacity. – Just so you know where I’m coming from for those that are interested .

Now I think an important point needs to be made here about the allegations of fraud which seems to be somewhat overlooked here. It must be kept in mind that were these allegations of deliberate fraud specifically to be proven to be true it would kick off a scandal absolutely without parallel in living memory. Watergate would be nothing, nothing at all compared to this. Especially if criminal charges were brought I believe this would have the potential to severely cripple the conservative arm of the Republican party for a generation (which in itself makes me somewhat sceptical about these claims – the right must realise the scale of the stakes they would be playing with here, whatever else they are, they’re not stupid). Nevertheless, I concede that given what has been presented here it is eminently possible that this did occur, and if it did and can be exposed, there is an opportunity to make real history.

That however cuts both ways. The level of wrongdoing alleged, actually makes them dangerous for the accuser as well as the accused. They could be described as severely slanderous and the vicious ravings of poor losers. If the allegations were given a wide scale airing before anything is proved by senior members of the party and it is later proved that nothing did go on, then similarly, it could discredit the Democratic Party for a generation. Unfortunately for whatever reason the right appears to have had a fair degree of success in tarnishing liberals, the fact that for a group which constantly claims to be spreading liberty – this is absurd and completely illogical is at the moment at least not relevant. Consider for a moment the outrage that could and would be generated if these accusations were made by major politicians and then did not stick, especially in Bush really did get 51% of the votes, it would make getting that 2% to switch back over next time all the harder. It is therefore absolutely essential that if there are serious doubts and if investigations are going on they should be quiet until proof is found- then it’s a whole new ballgame. In the meantime the more interest and investigation that can be drummed up by forums such as these the better. At the end of the day the fact that most of the media can dismiss these sites as being on the fringes is only a good thing, it allows more to get done without providing future ammunition to the right, which could potentially sway moderates in the future.

[KurtNYC]

1. Actual counts aside

It seems obvious that the GOP puts as many obstacles as they can in front of voters who aren't likely to share their goals.

Consider the checkbox on Florida registration forms. That is not heresay or unsubstantiated rumour (that spelling is for you btw).

Welcome to DU.

[nostalgicaboutmyfutr]

2. I think you will find that if these stories get true traction

you will see things come up that will bury them....Frankly i am surprised that BushCo allowed the vote to be so close....but then again 'so close' is easier to explain away....

even if there was 'proof'....90% of Bush supporters would never believe it...

[rockedthevoteinMA]

5. i have to agree with ahyums

I started thinking about this last night, and it is truly frightening to think of the long term affects of this. I mean don't get me wrong, the evidence is there. But the whole issue with fixing the election, I mean it's a federal offense, and it totally defeats any illusion of democracy in the U.S. Not only here, but around the world.

[Nordic]

9. well they invaded Fallujah and they poisoned Arafat

right at election time as to provide a really nice pair of distractions for the media who might feel an urge to follow up on the election.

[Tace]

3. Seems Sensible

[RevCheesehead]

4. You hit the nail right on the head here:

"Consider for a moment the outrage that could and would be generated if these accusations were made by major politicians and then did not stick, especially in Bush really did get 51% of the votes, it would make getting that 2% to switch back over next time all the harder. It is therefore absolutely essential that if there are serious doubts and if investigations are going on they should be quiet until proof is found- then it’s a whole new ballgame."

Thank you for your observations, and welcome to DU! :hi:

[Nordic]

6. hm, pardon me for being skeptical about a few of your assertions:

you say it would create a scandal like nothing ever seen ....

Well look at the crimes that Bushco has committed, and ask yourself why hasn't THAT created a "scandal like nothing anyone has ever seen"?

I mean, the guy took a country to WAR, we invaded another country, based on manufactured "intelligence" and lies.

And he's not in jail for this?

He deliberately outed a CIA agent who was deep undercover investigating WMD simply to be vindictive against the woman's husband who busted them on their lies.

And he's not in jail for this?

Right now, the American press and the American people have a huge HUGE, unimaginably high level of resistance to accepting the fact that any kind of scandal could have happened in their country.

It defies all logic and all sane judgement.

So I say don't be quiet about any of this, the more noise the better, the more we push this the better. Do we really have any choice?

[Zookeeper]

7. I see your point...

however, we do have to move quickly on this before the election results are finalized. Also, Americans have short attention spans and, IMHO, six months from now no one will care. It will come up before the next election, perhaps too late to create any safeguards.

Welcome to DU! :hi:

[On the Road]

8. Well, I Don't Think We Can Keep Quiet About the Irregularities

but I agree it's a very good idea to avoid accusations, especially of top officials, until the evidence is in. I think it's also a good idea to publicize only those irregularities which are truly suspicious and likely to result in findings of fraud.

Personally, I believe fraud was committed. The question is how much and whether it can be proven.

I would be tempted to agree with you that convictions for election fraud could destroy the Republican party for the foreseeable future, but Democratic cities had fraudulent political machines (like Tammany Hall in NY) for years, and they kept getting reelected. It will move the needle, though.

On Edit:

And welcome to DU, ahyums! :toast:

[Nordic]

10. Yes, we need the electoral college vote to be postponed

until recounts happen.

This needs to be a huge stink before the electoral college vote.

Maybe I'm dreamin' but you can kiss Democracy goodbye if it doesn't.

[ahyums]

17. a

[karlrschneider]

11. Your political analysis is germane, but our Slander laws are MUCH dif-

ferent from yours in the UK. Here, truth is an absolute defense.
Whatever is going on behind the scenes is actually being done as you suggest, with a great deal of circumspection and care...the people involved are, I can promise you, are well aware of both the legal and political ramifications of issuing accusations without pretty much ironclad evidence. The reason I think that is because even those of us who -want- something done are almost as much in the dark as is the country in general and much of what we have to say about it is hopeful speculation. The only other alternative to that scenario is that nothing whatsoever is being pursued, and I believe we do have enough evidence there -is- activity effectively dismisses that possibility.
Welcome to DU

[kerry2win]

12. agree but i don't put anything past this administration

I think they think their bulletproof

[intelle]

13. Thank you for this post!

Hi ahyums. I am a "newbie" myself although I am active on many email lists and have been suspicious since Tuesday night (11/2) that something was definitely amiss. Welcome!

You are right that whichever way this goes, there will be huge ramifications.

I sent a letter to the DNC and told them that if this issue goes away without an ultimate challenge on their part, they will, in all likelihood, lose a large percentage of their supporters. I see this happening as a direct result of their supporters feeling betrayed and abandoned. So, if this happens, we will probably see an influx of support for the Green and Independent parties, as well as a decrease in voting behavior. Those who choose not to vote will not vote because they will feel that their votes don't count anyway. After all, this happened in 2000 as well as in 2004.

In addition, I think the sitting administration grossly underestimated the public. Since they have (they think) gotten away with other travesties such as the Iraq war and possibly 9/11 (please don't flame me on this one...I can't help it, I was skeptical from day one about media reports), they obviously believe that all they have to do is dictate to the MSM what to put out there, and the American public will buy it. All I can say is thank goodness for the internet. The exchance of information here probably far exceeds anything they imagined. If we have anything to say about it, we will see the truth prevail. This issue will not 'die' among those of us who choose to think for ourselves.

Intelle



:hi:

[WarNoMore]

14. If you google collier + votes,

you'll find a history of almost exactly the same methods being discussed today.

Welcome to DU.

[Hosnon]

15. Know any good places in the UK I can live for the next 4 yrs? nt

[Technowitch]

16. You've pretty much hit the nail on the head, my friend

And welcome to DU, by the by.

Yes, these scandals could bring down the entire conservative establishment, and in particular the radical-conservatives (as I like to call them).

However, these same people have demonstrated an utter and total contempt for the rule of law. Even something as simple as the Writ of Habeas Corpus, considered sacrosanct in American law since its inception (minus a few really bad times... including Lincoln's blunder), has been set aside -- on nothing more than suspicion and assertion.

Frankly, I do not think the United States of America can survive without turning completely into a fascist dictatorship -- which is the direction it's heading in. The alternative is a break-up into separate regional countries -- which I actually think is probably preferrable at this point. Those red-state people don't want us liberal west coast or northeasterners anyway.

[ahyums]

18. thanks for the welcome

First of all thanks to everyone for the kind welcome. Secondly, of course I wouldn't even dream of suggesting that the irregularities should be kept quiet, just that more is needed before further reaching allegations are made by those in high profiles (I'm sure that's clear anyway).

Another point was made that there is a need to work quickly on this. Absolutely, there seem to be very tight deadlines all over the place, but I have to say I'm tremendously impressed with how much has already been done, with a recount in Ohio now very likely by all accounts, considering the lack of mainstream traction on the issue. Not that you should rest on your laurels, but even to get to that stage is something of a demonstration of the immense power of the Internet. I doubt it would have happened without it.

[TheNonPanderer]

19. Beat their asses!

Thats what we need to do :argh:

Its that simple. We need to issue beatdowns on every GOP we have a problem with that we think won this race crooked and prove it...

and HAND COUNTS for everyone in the senate and then the DEMS Sweep to VICTORY!

AND we are gonna take Uranus and on to SATURN and then Pluto and then MARS and then JUPITER

YEAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Dems stop walkin on eggshells lace up those steel toe combat boots and kick em in the NUUUUUUUUUUUUUTS (In Erick Cartman voice)

[ahyums]

20. I'm afraid

that your career as a comedian is likely to be pretty short lived here. In any case it's what you lot would do without a second's hesitation so no false hypocrisy please.