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Question - What, in everyone's opinion, caused the big delay with HAVA?

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Yellow Horse Donating Member (462 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-18-05 02:07 PM
Original message
Question - What, in everyone's opinion, caused the big delay with HAVA?
HAVA was passed in 2002, as we all know. But here we are, 13 days away from the second "deadline" (postponed from 2004) and we have lawsuits and confusion in many states in regard to voting machine certification, and other problems. So, just in everyone's opinion...

Why didn't the EAC get going sooner?

Why didn't the EAC get their "2005" standards done a year or two sooner?

Money?

Something more?

If you were going to file a lawsuit or do something to stop or postpone HAVA -- right now -- what would it be? And would you want to?
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gristy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-18-05 02:31 PM
Response to Original message
1. I dunno...
What do you think?
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Wilms Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-18-05 02:43 PM
Response to Original message
2. Thanks for posting. I'm wondering, too.
EAC was not adequately funded. The guy heading it resigned citing that as a big reason.


A bill was recently introduced to extend the HAVA deadline...but it doesn't appear to have any legs.

http://www.govtrack.us/congress/bill.xpd?bill=h109-3163

http://www.govtrack.us/congress/bill.xpd?tab=summary&bill=h109-3163

http://www.naco.org/Template.cfm?Section=Issues&template=/ContentManagement/ContentDisplay.cfm&ContentID=16992#topb

http://www.natat.org/natat/WASH_REPORT_ISSUES/2005%20Wash%20Reports/washrep.November.2005.htm#Story14


An interesting, two part, article was published back in June.

Is HAVA Being Abused?

By John Gideon and Ellen Theisen
June 02, 2005

The 1990 Voting System Standards are Certainly Outdated. Are They Illegal, Too?

http://www.votetrustusa.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=75&Itemid=51

Is HAVA Being Abused? Part II

http://www.votetrustusa.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=78&Itemid=51



It seems a lot of forces are attempting to avoid aspects of HAVA. I'm not sure if it's a good thing, or a bad thing.

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FogerRox Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-19-05 08:39 PM
Response to Reply #2
3. In one respect -- its good to not have HAVA delayed
All these shitty DREs and opscans & tabulators will be bought-- most or none will actually meet the 2002 VVSS when it becomes mandatory. And there will some pissed of people-- when they have to authorize additional funds-- not HAVA funds, mind you. Local funds.

Then sit back and watch for the blowback. SO basically the 4 billion in HAVA money will go down the tubes.
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Wilms Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-19-05 08:46 PM
Response to Reply #3
4. Right! That's why it seems an idea to not do anything...or much.
And if they don't meet the deadline for wasting, er, spending money to comply with HAVA, they won't have those funds available when they finally do spend. So they'll be forced to spend their own money to do it, making DRE's a less-likely choice...or so I'm thinkin'.

It may give them time to realize, too, how much it will cost to STORE, MAINTAIN, and REPLACE DRE's.

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demodonkey Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-19-05 08:47 PM
Response to Reply #3
5. In my state the 2002 standards are required, but...
...the Dept of State is allowing them to delay HAVA with a simple resolution to encumber their HAVA funds to buy a system (don't have to name the exact system.) But they still have to be ready for the PA Primary in May, including all the training, etc. It is sickening that a lot of counties are passing up AccuPoll (a decent system, with a really great VVPB) in favor of WAITING for these crappy, more expensive systems to get their certifcation. T

We are getting downright Diebolded -- by ES & S -- in Pennsylvania, and we need help.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=203&topic_id=404972&mesg_id=404972
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Wilms Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-19-05 08:51 PM
Response to Reply #5
6. I'm aware that PA made that determiniation, but is the Fed going along? nt
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demodonkey Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-19-05 09:42 PM
Response to Reply #6
7. Good question. May be an "out" for us. n/t
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FogerRox Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-19-05 10:16 PM
Response to Reply #6
8. I'm nor sure the fed has do do squat
If PA took title 1 funds-- they can be used for title 3 purposes, with a deadline of 2007. SO you wont lose your HAVA money.

But by then the FEC 3.2.1 & HAVA handicapped access is mandatory.
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Wilms Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-19-05 10:21 PM
Response to Reply #8
9. Please lend a tutorial.
Would you tell me a bit about...

Title 1 Funds

Title 3 Funds

FEC 3.2.1

And please confirm that "HAVA handicapped access" means both an accessible polling place and an accessible voting machine.

Thanks.

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FogerRox Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-19-05 11:00 PM
Response to Reply #9
10. Ok
Title 1 Funds

Sec. 101. Payments to States for activities to improve administration of elections.
Sec. 102. Replacement of punch card or lever voting machines.
Sec. 103. Guaranteed minimum payment amount.
Sec. 104. Authorization of appropriations.
Sec. 105. Administration of programs.
Sec. 106. Effective date.




Title 3 Funds

Sec. 301. Voting systems standards.
Sec. 302. Provisional voting and voting information requirements.
Sec. 303. Computerized statewide voter registration list requirements and requirements for voters who register by mail.
Sec. 304. Minimum requirements.
Sec. 305. Methods of implementation left to discretion of State.

FEC 3.2.1

Are mandatiry voting system accuracy requirements cited by section 301

And please confirm that "HAVA handicapped access" means both an accessible polling place and an accessible voting machine.


Yes it is both-- though I was refering to the purchase of handicapped accesable voting machines.

If you use funds from section 102- (to replace lever/punchcard machines)to buy accessible voting machines (see section 301, mandating accessible voting machines.)Then the deadline is 2007.
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Wilms Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-20-05 02:07 AM
Response to Reply #10
12. OK, so Title 1 $ can be used for Title 3 spending.
Edited on Tue Dec-20-05 02:08 AM by Wilms
But after the Jan 2K6 deadline, how would you apply to get Title 1 money for voting machines if you hadn't already?

And if you you had already got them, and spend it on Title 3, you'd be stuck for $ help with Voting equipment purchases. Correct? :shrug:

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FogerRox Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-20-05 02:12 PM
Response to Reply #12
13. the app for money starts with the state HAVA plan filed years ago
Im not sure what you mean with te second sentence--
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Wilms Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-20-05 06:34 PM
Response to Reply #13
15. You said Title 1 funds could be used for Title 3 expenses.
So I asked, if that's what a given state has done, what will they do to get money for Title 1 expenses...namely purchasing machines.

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FogerRox Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-20-05 09:27 PM
Response to Reply #15
16. gottcha
title 1 funds buy voting machines- to replace levers & Punch cards.
title 3 funds buy handicapped accessable voting machines

If you use your title 1 funds for title 3 purposes-- to buy handicapped accessable voting machines, you have just replaced your levers & Punch cards. SO you dont need title 1 money anymore-
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Wilms Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-20-05 09:51 PM
Response to Reply #16
17. Oh. OK. So...
So as far as the potential proliferation of DRE's, 2007 is more the date in question. Correct?

And lemme ask...are most DRE's that are currently available "accessible", and if not, is it because of a VVPAT requirement?

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FogerRox Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-20-05 10:25 PM
Response to Reply #17
18. not really ----because of a VVPAT requirement?
accessability is a matter of degree. NONe of the DREs seem to really go the whole nine yards to be accessable. Adding an audio ballot to the Sequoia Advantage is good- but- the font size cant be changed, because the ballot face on the DRE is printed. For example.

Then of course the VVPB needs to be audio too--

The Avante full face vote trakker goes a long way in trying to meet EVERY aspect of the 2002 VVSS. BUT the Vote Trakker VVPB is a printed paper IIRC-- I dont remember if the avante has an audio VVPB-- it may.
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onthebench Donating Member (88 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-20-05 11:53 PM
Response to Reply #18
19. Avantes reads back the paper to the blind voter
Accessibility is determined by a Section 508 Lawyer in the Justice department. In 1998, Congress amended the Rehabilitation Act to require Federal agencies to make their electronic and information technology accessible to people with disabilities.

One thought was that the driving force was Chet Kalis a longtime staffer of Congressman Bob Ney's. Chet was diagnosed with a brain cancer (I am pretty sure that was the disease). He passed this summer. I thought he was one of the most honest people I have have ever met in DC. He was the one that knew the law. He was the one that worked on getting HAVA passed.

I think that the majority of the reason was the underfunding. Our election money went to buy $87 billion of purple ink and tupperware containers for the Iraqis.

States were not given much time to create their HAVA plans. Most were rushed without much thought or input from the people. Does everyone know that HAVA does not replace punch cards or lever machines? As long as the state has an education program, they can still use those voting methods under HAVA.
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philb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-20-05 12:58 AM
Response to Original message
11. Congress isn't serious about wanting fair elections- no priority
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Einsteinia Donating Member (645 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-20-05 06:18 PM
Response to Original message
14. Soaries resigned from the EAC in disgust--see below
http://www.whoscounting.net/EAC.htm



In April of 2005, a little over a year into his term, Soaries abruptly decided to resign from his post – partly in an effort to “spend more time with his family,” and partly due to a lack of support for federal election reform from Congress and the administration—saying the government has not shown enough commitment to election reform. "All four of us had to work without staff, without offices, without resources. I don't think our sense of personal obligation has been matched by a corresponding sense of commitment to real reform from the federal government," he said.

 

Soaries tells MSNBC’s Chris Matthews in an interview, "Election reform is not a matter of great urgency in Congress among Democrats or Republicans." Prompting me to inquire --Did we already give out the Understatement of the Year Award? If not – here is a meretricious candidate to receive it.

 
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kster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-21-05 01:38 AM
Response to Original message
20. Knowing what we know now shouldn't HAVA be dumped
by now, It is like Racketeering, A reverse bribe like telling the states do it or you won't get paid. When we all know it was put in to place to "hurry up" the states in to buying the election theft machines. I'm just wondering :shrug:
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FogerRox Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-21-05 07:34 PM
Response to Reply #20
21. kster- yes - there is a certain correctness in what you say
Dumping HAVA would be too logical though. >wink<
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onthebench Donating Member (88 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-21-05 10:35 PM
Response to Reply #21
22. Congress actaully has small say in election laws
Congress can only make federal laws pertaining to how their members are elected. Congress can not make a law about how any one state runs their elections for every other office. That is why the only way for Congress to get a state to change its laws is to use money. The state must conform to the law in order to get the money. The State technically does not have to buy machines if it does not apply for the money. The state does not even have to have a section 508 compliant machine. They can satisfy section 508 standards without buying a single machine.
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Wilms Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-21-05 10:39 PM
Response to Reply #22
23. Assuming a state balks, how would a federal election be handled? n/t
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onthebench Donating Member (88 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-21-05 11:41 PM
Response to Reply #23
24. First off there are no federal elections
There are only state elections. Even President is a state election. Congress could impose a separate rule about how their members are elected. The practical issue is that Congress realizes that states would fight them and win on most of the finer points. That is why the big pot of money is used as a stick to get states to perform the way Congress wants them. This is true for a lot of other areas of government. If Congress wants all of us to drive 55mph, then they give money to states for roads as long as the speed limit is 55mph. When the wide open states like Montana said who cares about speed limits on empty roads Congress did not enforce the rules. Only when eastern states started to get involved, did Congress change the rules on how highway money is appropriated.
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Wilms Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-21-05 11:45 PM
Response to Reply #24
25. Gotcha. Thanks. n/t
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sunshinekathy Donating Member (177 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-22-05 02:03 AM
Response to Original message
26. The EAC was unfunded & HAVA law is idiotic & passed by Dems too
Edited on Thu Dec-22-05 02:34 AM by sunshinekathy
The EAC actually survived for months on funds donated by voting machine vendors because:

1. The EAC was not funded. I don't know whether Congress allocated the $ and Bush didn't spend it or what exactly happened, but the EAC had no funds at first to do its job.

2. HAVA was an idiotic law pushed through Congress by Common Cause when Dems were in strong control of the Senate. Common Cause did not have the common sense to consult with any independent computer scientists who were voting system experts who could have instantly told them that HAVA (the way they had written it) was the biggest bonanza for election tampering ever in the history of the U.S. because it gives millions to every state to "upgrade" to inauditable electronic voting systems that enable insiders to tamper with vote counts or innocently miscount a large number of votes in entire counties, states, or the nation, without leaving a trace of evidence.

3. The EAC technical committee is dominated by Britt Williams, one of a tiny handful of PhD computer scientists in America who support paperless voting and his idea of "independent" audits is to have one electronic voting machine part that is independent of another electronic voting machine part, check each other. William's "independent dual verification system" is not independent of insiders within the election system, so that it is a nice-sounding placebo that does not prohibit voting systems that are trivial for insiders to use to tamper with vote counts with machines that no outsider can check vote count accuracy. Britt Williams ushered in paperless DRE voting into Georgia in 2002, and claims that voting systems can be protected from tampering by having the insiders guard them from the outsiders (voters). He doesn't seem to understand that the biggest threat to any system is from insiders and that "independent" audits in the past have always meant "independent of the insiders".

So having the EAC come up with guidelines sooner would not have helped anything, and now Bush has appointed someone to the EAC who emphasizes removing voters from voter registration rolls and apparently helped remove thousands of legal mostly minority voters from the Florida rolls prior to the 2000 election. No decent guidance can be expected from the current EAC IMO.

HAVA was the fault of the Dems for arrogantly rebuffing the help of any independent (of voting machine vendors) computer scientists who are voting system experts when the Dems authored and passed the "get rid of democratic elections" HAVA law which has exascerbated the problems of vote count manipulation and errors in vote counts a hundred-fold since 2000. However, even the old systems which were independently auditable because they often used paper ballots, were mostly counted electronically and not usually audited, and so U.S. vote counting systems have always been wide open to insider tampering - but the difference now is that we've bought new voting systems that are virtually impossible to independently audit. In addition some older systems like lever machines and push-button DREs, were error prone anyway, and easy to tamper with by local election officials by mis-setting the ballot definitions, etc. The newer DREs with paper rolls are virtually inauditable because 60% of voters do not bother with the extra step of verifying the paper rolls, and even if they did bother, the paper rolls are, for all practical purposes, not hand countable, so they are counted using primarily proprietary bar codes, if at all - and many election officials merely reprint electronic machine counts and bipass the paper rolls altogether.

Election activists have tried to pass meaningful legislation since Rush Holt began proposing legislation in 2003, but legislatures may already be substantially corrupted by vote tampering since the 1990's so that there is little hope of passing laws requiring independent audits of hand countable voter verified paper ballots.

The only tool that remains to restore democratic elections may be IF we fund the creation of a national public election data archive for collecting the detailed precinct-level vote count data broken out by vote type that would reveal where votes were miscounted if it were analyzed. Although we have the legal right to this data, it is difficult to obtain because not one county (of the over 3300) releases it publicly. Every county in America right now conglomerates its vote count data in a way that hides evidence of vote tampering prior to publicly releasing it.

However, it is possible to obtain if done intelligently and there are volunteers in some states right now working to set the precedents to obtain that data.

Please read more about this one remaining tool which is a do-able way to detect vote count errors in time to contest elections and put correctly elected candidates into office:

http://uscountvotes.org/ucvAnalysis/US/election_officials/Audits_Monitoring.pdf

and sign up to help in your own state:

http://uscountvotes.org/ucvData/US/How2CollectData.pdf

The National Election Archive has finally received its 501(c)(3) status from the IRS and so, if it could raise the funds to hire a couple of programmers, could build at least a rudimentary system for volunteers to begin uploading vote count data from a prior election from counties in each state to develop and test the system, which is not trivial because election laws, rules, and procedures vary in each state and often in each county. There is no such thing as a voting system that is tamper-proof from the inside, so that we'll always need to do two things:

1. independently audit - but that requires a hand countable voter verified paper ballot

2. monitor the detailed precinct-level vote count data broken out by vote type - and that we have every legal way to do currently, but need the funding to hire the technical staff and pay for the internet servers to do. It requires collecting official election results in more detail than any county currently releases them from over 3300 counties in a myriad of file formats and file types and making the original election documents publicly available, then parsing the data in all those files in to a standard electronic format and fighting to obtain the data in some states and counties, and convincing candidates not to concede until after obtaining and analyzing the data in their race, something that neither Kerry nor Gore did, not even in Ohio or Florida, despite their having every legal right to do so. Using instinct, rather than actual data to determine where to recount votes, results in actions like Gore's where he asked for recounts of punch-card counties rather than optical scan counties which would have given him the election. Amazing lack of effort to get into office by both Gore and Kerry despite an obviously corrupted vote counting system IMO.

See http://electionarchive.org



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