Election Rigging Debate thread in GD - please educate

[NoBushSpokenHere]

Please help educate the people who do not understand what went down Nov 2nd.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=4974288&mesg_id=4974288

[Melissa G]

1. that guy is too funny....

[NoBushSpokenHere]

3. LOL

Atman's "Vote Until Your Fingers Bleed" comment was great!

While I do not agree with the opening post, I am glad to see the thread gained so much attention.

[NoBushSpokenHere]

2. More about the thread

PROUD TO BE LIBERAL posts this:

I want to address a conspiracy theory that is prevalent throughout the DU community.

A lot of people espouse the fact that the voting machines were and are rigged. Or that the "election was stolen." I am tired of this shit. I am tired of being demoralized. Everytime I remark upon an election result, there is always someone who says,"the machines were rigged." Everytime someone makes a comment that Kerry lost because of bad campiagning, there is someone who always says, "he didn't lose, the machines were rigged." I am tired of this shit.

I cannot believe that the people in my own party are trying to oppress us. These conspiracy theorists are trying to stop us from voting. These same people are trying to stop us from participating in the electoral process. Everytime I make the comment that we should try harder next time in the elections, there is always someone who says, "who cares the elections are rigged." Everytime I say that we should register more people to vote, there is always someone who says, "that doesn't matter because the voting machines are rigged." I am tired of this shit.

These conspiracy theorist are trying to disenfranchise us. They are trying to place the burden of responsibility on some abstract idea.I am tired of this shit. The only way we can win is if we accept that we lost fair and square and that we have to try harder. Instead these theorist argue that we don't need to try harder because the voting machines are rigged.

I will not let some group of conspiracy theorists hijack the party. I will not let you disenfranchise me. I will not let you stop me for campaigning for my candidates. I will not let you stop me from voting.

I am tired of your shit.


Interesting comments follow - including accusations of election machine fraud is a Republican way of dividing the party - can't believe these people want us to shut up.....we have no party as long as we have fraud and those who will not STAND UP!

[OnTheOtherHand]

5. it's an interesting (and frustrating) polarization

Most of the time on ERD I have felt like an "extremist" in this context, but I'm becoming aware that for DU overall I am more in the middle.

The arguments about facts -- some of which simply aren't positively knowable one way or another, at least by us, no matter who claims certainty for whatever position, however vehemently -- bleed into arguments about tactics, strategy, ethics, mental health....

The OP in that other thread is, IMHO, way over the top. It asserts some facts that aren't knowable (or some facts that just aren't facts, depending on what that OP meant by "we lost fair and square"), and misascribes some motivations. Those mistakes are easily made on all sides of these issues, and even 'in the middle.'

The OP perceives that he is being told to stop working because ordinary political work no longer matters; people responding to the OP perceive that they are being told to stop saying what they believe about the scope of election fraud. I don't see why this set of issues inherently has to be so polarizing.

[helderheid]

4. same thread? I was just going to post this!

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=4974288&mesg_id=4974288

[Time for change]

6. They locked it before I could say anything n/t

[Amaryllis]

7. Thom Hartmann and Land Shark keep saying not to get into the debate

about whether or not it was stolen; people can argue back and forth on that. They can't argue about this: for profit corporations with highly partisan poltitical and financial conflicts of interest counting our votes on trade secret software that not even election officials can view. Thom says anyone can understand that this is not a good thing in a democracy. Land Shark keeps repeating the refrain: secret vote counting has no place in a democracy. If they want to use secret software, go do it in the public sector, but not in the public sector.

[OnTheOtherHand]

8. interesting -- I hadn't noticed LS warning against that debate

I like Land Shark's sound bite better than Thom Hartmann's (other thread) -- "privatization" doesn't make everyone shudder, but "secret vote counting" sounds (and is) awful. (Not that you couldn't use both ideas -- "corporations running our elections for profit" probably sounds pretty bad to most people!)

Tfc and I (and others) go around on where the 2004 election fits in. Perhaps surprisingly, although I'm not convinced that the election was stolen, I don't think I would necessarily say "not to get into the debate." But I would say don't start there, and don't get stuck there (and, yeah, maybe sometimes don't even go there, depending on the context). To me, the fact that there is a debate over the 2004 election is just more evidence that the system is messed up.

[Amaryllis]

9. With you on that. What I always say when I speak is that the mere fact

that we have to ask the question, or that there is a debate, of whether the election was stolen or not indicates that we are in bad shape. And Thom just says don't start there, not don't go there.

check this out:
Hartmann and Lehto on the Corporate takeover of America’s elections at the Unitarian Church on July 16, 2005.

Thom Hartmann...about 33 minutes


www.PhilosopherSeed.org/realaudio/thartman.ram

www.PhilosopherSeed.org/mp3/thartman.mp3


Paul Lehto....about 32 minutes


www.PhilosopherSeed.org/realaudio/plehto.ram


www.PhilosopherSeed.org/mp3/plehto.mp3

[OnTheOtherHand]

10. cool, thanks for the links! n/t

[Time for change]

11. I don't agree with that

I do agree that it is important to stress the secret vote counting. It is quite right that that has no place in a Democracy, and we should make a big point of that at every opportunity.

However, I believe that it is also important we encourage widespread belief that the election was in fact stolen, and that we should take every opportunity to make our legitimate case for that. I believe that because I believe that there are large numbers of people in our country who do not take election reform seriously enough simply because they do not believe that we have had a stolen election. For those people, telling them that secret vote counting is bad for Democracy is not enough. There attitude is, "So what, as long as those who count our votes do so honestly, it doesn't matter whether or not it is secret". Those people are in denial, but I think that it is important to wake them up. Only if they believe that an important election has been stolen will they take this seriuously.

Why is that important? Because our Congress, as a whole, doesn't give a damn about election reform -- or rather, they do give a damn -- they want to obstruct it in every way they can. Only massive grass roots support for meaningful election reform will result in a kick in the ass to Congress that will get them to act on this in a responsible way.

[Blue Shark]

12. As Always a good response is to say.

..."Prove to me the vote count was accurate." You get the deer-in-the-headlights look...and then "Well all the news stations reported the vote totals."...my response "Yeah...so what they were wrong"


...Makes their heads explode...its pretty cool.

[byronius]

13. Strange logic from the fellow.

"People say they're carting us off to concentration camps. This makes people not want to get on trains! Stop saying that! You're demoralizing people and hurting the train companies!"

Sort of like a left-wing bob boudelang. I vote ferociously, in every election -- even though I know what's up. Just because elections are stolen these days doesn't mean we should quit voting.

Bruce McPherson -- burn in hell.