WHY are MoveOn, DFA, True Majority, and DNC ignoring election problems?

[garybeck]

This is the one thing I just can't figure out. Is anyone involved enough in any of these organizations to please enlighten me on this?

It seems to me that if we are ever going to accomplish anything we need some of these organizations' help, and theoretically they should be chompin' at the bit to get on this issue.

Is it just because they don't want to seem like conspiracy theorists? Or they just don't know the facts?

[emcguffie]

1. I tried really hard to find out

-- from the DNC if they believed there had been fraud. I could not. Apparently, Donna Brazile found me "insulting".

She said they were doing everything they could. Because I was not sure whether she/they believed there had been fraud or just "vote suppression", I persisted, and that's when she found me insulting.

[KaryninMiami]

2. This is a question I've been asking for a very long time!

It's not like we haven't been writing to them, asking for their support, demanding they pay attention, sending them facts. At one point, when things were heating up in Ohio (or somewhere around that time), MoveOn actually jumped on board but it was a very brief interlude and the interest, after one e-blast, just seemed to fade away.

I'm up for suggestions on some sort of collective effort to enlighten them again and I agree, Gary, that we need their support if we really want to make an impact. They have the funds, they have the mailing lists and they have the support to take the election fraud issue to the level it deserves.

Anyone else have any ideas?

[myschkin]

18. hm...

A charming lady that have dinner with Michael Moore.

Personal contacts ... for example with Barbara Boxer.

A PR campagne among others with statements of Moby, Gore Vidal, Teresa Heinz, Barbara Streisand, Jesse Jackson...

A protest march in NY with the support of Moby and another musician... (incl. concert)

Somebody who gains Moby or Gore Vidal (or B. Streisand) for financial support for an advertising... (with all the facts)

A press conference of Moby, Susan Sarandon, Sean Penn and Gore Vidal.

A special commitee which informs George Soros about all facts (and afterwards maybe someone else?).

[rdmccur]

33. Anyone recall the name of

the group that did the 'rap' pieces just before and after the election?
Thy're very popular with the youth culture here and perhaps in Europe as well. I remember a few lines from their lyrics like "we gonna march".
I thought what they did sent a good message.

[Chi]

34. this it?

Come along, follow me as I lead through the darkness
As I provide just enough spark, that we need to proceed
Carry on, give me hope, give me strength,
Come with me, and I won't stear you wrong
Put your faith and your trust as I guide us through the fog
Till the light, at the end, of the tunnel, we gonna fight,
We gonna charge, we gonna stomp, we gonna march through the swamp
We gonna mosh through the marsh, take us right through the doors, come on

If so it's eminem.

[emlev]

42. League of Pissed Off Voters? n/t

[Name removed]

3. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[saracat]

4. Whaaat? What are you saying?

Are you saying the Jews are alright with vote fraud? Not any Jews that I know! And they certainly don't support Bush! What are you implying?I happen to think there was election fraud but some people need more proof, and the results of some of these investigations have yet to come forward.

[New Earth]

9. election fraud

and i don't think the person meant anything offensive.

[KaryninMiami]

5. ELECTION FRAUD IS NON-SECTARIAN and Non Partisan

Period. I cannot even imagine were you are coming from with this. Rigging an election is illegal - it's a federal crime. The right to vote and have your vote counted is about being a Democracy. Period.

And for the record, I know many people of all faiths who are dedicated and committed to stopping fascism- which is what we are dealing with here.

[autorank]

8. I couldn't agree more. EVERYBODY IN THE USA supported Voting

Rights when it was passed, everybody except a few thugs. So what is the big deal.

Donna Brazile is a total failure. She is much of what's been wrong with our party.

Here is the absolute truth, I believe: Voting Rights/Fighting Election Fraud is a pure grass roots movement from the bottom up. It will not go away and it will not be covered up. There is already enough evidence to prove it took place just from the top down statistical analysis. There is more than enough evidence to start an investigation. Our leaders are lazy and inept. I'm stunned that Dean is tolerating this. I understand that Brazile was in charge of the investigative group prior to him coming on board (please correct me if I'm wrong). So, he's letting this percolate but seriously, what's the delay.

[GuvWurld]

21. Lay off the Kool-Aid

I agree that our REVOLUTIONARY election reform movement must be driven by We The People. But the People can't do this successfully if the predominant attitude continues to be laden with "surprise" at politicos doing what they always do. It is time for a reality check on expectations - stop drinking the Kool Aid.

Our election reform movement should really be the front face put on the true effort toward PEACEFUL REVOLUTION.

We don't need to be talking about evidence of fraud or statistical analyses. We need to be confronting the *conditions* which ensure inconclusive outcomes to elections. We need to construct our platform facing forward, showing that if we ever want to have representative government in the future, truly fair elections must be premised on conditions that create a basis for confidence in the results reported.

A comprehensive set of these conditions can be found in the Voter Confidence Resolution. The Arcata, CA City Council will be considering adopting this resolution next month. Please take a copy of it to your lowest level locally elected representative. And meanwhile, learn a little history about the Democratic party - it has always stood in the way of having a genuinely level playing field in favor of maintaining elite corporate control in collaboration with the other main party.

See: http://maritimes.indymedia.org/news/2003/06/5947.php

Excerpt from intro:

"...the main point of this article is not to debunk specific individuals. Rather, it is to reveal an important aspect of the Democratic Party, its historic role as a counterinsurgency operation whose aim is to co-opt and sidetrack political activists, keep them from creating an independent political movement, and divert their energy into legitimating and reinforcing the political system which maintains the status-quo. Furthermore, the notion that the current Democratic Party represents a total break with that party's tradition will be debunked, revealing that not only today's Democrats, but the essentials of Bush's policies, are rooted in actions taken by Democratic Party administrations."

[autorank]

22. I think you're insulting me but I don't care. I agree with your point.

You talked about grass roots action and that's exactly what I was suggesting in the post. We are not going to get any top-down handouts, it's all going to be forced at the level you discussed and up the food chain.

:hi:

[GuvWurld]

23. No Insult Intended - Behavior Modification Needed

This is a public forum and you provided an opportunity to address a retarding factor of our movement being put forth by many, not just you. I mean no offense to anyone still loyal to Dems. But I would like to use information as a metaphoric slap in the face, or perhaps bucket of cold water poured over the head. See them for what they are and have always been, not what you wish they would be.

[autorank]

24. What needs modifying about my statement?

It's not a comprehensive policy, it's a comment on Voting Rights in the context of the previous message saying it should be a "winner" for the established party, not that it is, or even could be. The conclusion I reached, in that brief message, was it had to be a grass roots movement, meaning from "the bottom up," which is what you're doing. If there was an insult or there is one, you're not reading my post. People hear take enough shit from outsiders, it's not required from within (particularly when the criticism is 180 degrees wrong, as in my case). cya

[GuvWurld]

25. "Stunned," at "Our Party"??

You wrote:

"Donna Brazile is a total failure. She is much of what's been wrong with our party."

AND

"I'm stunned that Dean is tolerating this."

Why do you still associate yourself with Brazile or Dems in a single "our"? They do not want what you want and are not working for your interests and never have.

Why do you say you're stunned when Dean does what he and others have been doing all along?

I am not insulting you. I am attempting to get you to deal the with cognitive dissonance you are experiencing (as we all are). I have long encouraged everyone to examine areas where they say they believe one thing but then act as if they believe another.

A great example is the recounts that followed 11/2/04. The *conditions* never existed for a meaningful first count; insisting on a recount reinforced the validity of the first count which was the opposite of what we needed.

This is consistent with what I wrote in my first message above encouraging everyone to shift away from discussing fraud and stats and instead to address the system as a whole - the conditions which currently provide no basis for confidence in the results reported. Many people feel this is true and know it intuitively. They just don't use it as the frame for their election reform argument. This allows an opposing argument about "evidence."

There is no basis for confidence in the results reported from U.S. federal elections because the conditions under which they are conducted ensure an inconclusive outcome. It is my view that this line of reasoning does not allow for ongoing self-deception, the root of cognitive dissonance. We are so used to being lied to that we constantly and routinely lie to ourselves. Again, no insult to you or anyone - it is human nature and those in power are aware of how it can be used against us. Are we aware enough to free ourselves from this trap?

[Peace Patriot]

43. I agree with you, GuvWurld, and I've been giving the following answer to..

...election fraud naysayers: Prove Bush won. THAT is the problem.

But I don't think it's an either/or. The unverifiability of the 2004 election, and its highly questionable result, is a good place to begin discussing election reform, especially with Kerry voters (Dem, Repub and other) who feel in their gut that something is wrong. If they can be made to understand just how questionable the result was in this election (so questionable that many of us have concluded--based on what evidence we have--that Kerry didn't just win it, but won it by a landslide), then they have strong motivation to support election reform (as opposed to simple good government arguments, which don't fire people up enough).

The 2004 election did not meet the minimum requirements of the Carter Center for verifiability (that's what they said--and they COULDN'T monitor it, because of this). And we know that the problems are: secret, proprietary programming code that counts all the votes, controlled by big Bush donors; no paper trail in one third of the country; very insecure, hackable voting machines; extremely poor auditing procedures; and in certain cases (Ohio, Florida, etc.) extremely partisan and illegal behavior against Democratic voters, on a massive scale. Combine these conditions with a highly questionable result, and you have an INVALID election.

And in our American system, no redress possible--because Congress controls the verification of this vote, and Congress is full of Bush "pod people" who would ignore and spin any evidence presented to them.

But what I think you may be getting at is this: This fraudulent election SYSTEM (no other word for it) was agreed to by the Democratic Party leadership. Or, rather, they never objected to it--and should have been screaming bloody murder about it, long before the election.

Why didn't they? And why aren't they now? That is the mystery. My guesses are deep doo-doo corruption (hands in the pockets of the military-industrial complex which wanted and needed this war), more obvious and direct corruption ($4 billion in election "reform" money from Congress to the states, to purchase electronic voting systems owned and controlled by Bush buddies--lots of evidence of corruption of state/local election officials and "revolving door" employment, including Democrats, as we've seen in Calif.), and a bitter divide between our Dem elected officials and leaders and ordinary people (only millionaires can run for office, and Dem millionaires benefit from Bush's tax cuts, too--etc.--their opposition to these fascist policies is not visceral and not personal).

But, GuvWurld, I have to say there is a bit of smugness in your position. People like me, whose family and friends have seen the benefits of liberal democracy, and Democratic Party policy, going back to FDR, and who have participated in the various successful struggles within the party--for civil rights and voting rights for black citizens, for an end to segregation, for an end to unjustified war (after Vietnam) and for a huge change in US policy in Latin America and other places (Dem Congress forbidding interference in Nicaragua, for instance)--are loath to give up the advantage of trying to influence policy within a major party that can actually get a president into the White House, and obtain a majority in Congress.

It is a deep dilemma. It is a very difficult thing to just say, "Give it up." Give it up and see Jeb Bush installed as emperor in 2008? Because that's what WILL happen if there are major defections from the Dem Party to a third party over the next several years. Jeb Bush and the Bush Cartel won't give a damn what the third party stands for, or what the majority of people are saying (combined Dem and third party vote). Their goal is total POWER to run right over what most people want.

I believe that I fully understand what you are saying. Maybe I don't. But I have given this matter a lot of thought. I've been poised right on the edge of changing my party registration for several months--especially after what happened to our good Sec of State Kevin Shelley in Calif. at the hands of Democrats (doing Schwarzenegger's and the Bush Cartel's dirty work for them). But I just don't think it's feasible for a third party to do what needs to be done--elect a good president and a good congress--in the timeframe necessary to prevent outright Nazism and a bloody revolution against it. We have simply got to calm things down, and get our government back under some kind of sane control.

I am hoping that the American experiment is not over--that it is still possible to put the government back onto a better, more enlightened course. And it's my judgment that the best strategy for doing that is election reform at the state/local level, so that when the people VOTE for a saner course--even if it's Kerry's and the Democrats' somewhat ambivalent and elitist policies--their VOTE IS HEEDED, their will is done, their voice is listened to--rather than this oblivion that the majority in this country have been consigned to by the Bush Cartel.

Example (my favorite--but there are many): 63% of Americans oppose torture UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES (opinion poll in Feb. of this year). Yet they have had the torture memo writer Alberto Gonzales shoved down their throats as the chief law enforcement officer in the U.S.

It DOES make a difference to me whether or not the U.S. government is torturing prisoners--and it certainly makes a difference to the prisoners. And if to stop such horrifying activity means that I have to vote for John Kerry who voted for the war in Iraq, so be it. I want my view HEARD. Or, at the very least, I want there to be a CHANCE that my view will be heard. I want somebody DECENT in the White House who would, at the very least, AGONIZE over a decision to torture somebody. For godssakes.

So, that is the dilemma, in nutshell: whether or not we are going to have cruel rulers or noblesse oblige rulers; whether human beings are going to killed, tortured, starved, and impoverished by cruel sons-of-bitches, or whether some will be spared, and mitigations implemented, and the rule of law more or less followed, by a government with a conscience, under which progress can be made toward peace and justice. And I think you are just a bit blithe about this dilemma--as if it should be easy, as if it should be obvious to any clear-eyed person, that we need to defect from the Democrats and form a new party (or join an existing one). It's not that easy, GuvWurld.

I also have to say that I am haunted by the political situation in Germany 1933-34, when the Left fractured (and was battered) into a million splinters. How we voted the Bush Cartel out was by a huge and unprecedented cooperative effort of the center-left--of the grass roots and the DNC. Are we going to let the DNC's enormous failure on the election system destroy that coalition? Maybe we are. Maybe we have to. But it is a matter of great concern that the Bush Cartel and its "pod people" will use such a split to advantage, to make themselves unremovable.

[GuvWurld]

44. I'll cop to smug, but I never said register third party

I really appreciate your thoughtful message and it is clear that we agree on much, including the existence of several dilemmas. However, my solution has never included advocating for third party registration. In fact, in my view, partisanship is akin to treason. That may sound too cut and dry, but if partisanship means putting your party before all else, including the greater good, then partisanship can only be treason.

You make note of the broken election SYSTEM and I agree, referring instead to CONDITIONS which ensure inconclusive outcomes. As you no doubt saw earlier in this thread and in countless others, I advocate for the Voter Confidence Resolution to be passed at the local level. The nuance between my position here and what you wrote above is that I am interested exclusively in seeing People Power swell to the utter disregard of the entrenched political establishment. This is the only path to peaceful revolution, and this is the only end goal I see as worthy of pursuit.

What this means is that the dilemma you explicitly outline at the end of your post, cruel rulers vs. noblesse oblige rulers, presents what I see as a false alternative. I suppose the biggest difference in our position is that you say "I am hoping that the American experiment is not over" and I see that it has been over for a very long time.

Since we both still apparently subscribe to the ideals, our challenge is really about how to re-create fair test conditions for the experiment. My view is that it must start with We The People insisting we will not allow ourselves to be lied to anymore. This includes seeing the Dems as an opposition party. They aren't. This may be hard for some to accept. To those people I say just look at the track record. Either they are not an opposition party or they are the most inept and ineffective opposition we could never want.

Really, this is so little about the Dems and entirely about us, WE THE PEOPLE. Our "rulers" have legitimacy only so far as they have the Consent of the Governed. This Consent is no longer even sought. This is the wake-up call I'm offering. Visit the GuvWurld blog, read about the Voter Confidence Resolution and all that has happened surrounding it for the past year.

This is the crux of the biscuit. We need to get this Voter Confidence Resolution passed at City Councils across the country, just like all those anti-Patriot act resolutions. What will be different is the frame that ensures cumulative impact. I mean, 300+ anti-Patriot act resolutions still haven't restored our rights. Well, with the Consent of the Governed not being sought, it is no stretch for us to be talking about withdrawing the Consent. And as each new community joins in, the question is repeated: Has the Consent of the Governed been withdrawn, YET? It becomes only a matter of time before the answer switches from NO to YES, the Consent of the Governed HAS been withdrawn. This is my blueprint for triggering a Tipping Point that would constitute peaceful revolution.

[Name removed]

10. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[garybeck]

6. what the?

look,

the people who are concerned about election fraud are the people who look at it objectively. they could be black, white, green, jewish, whatever...

I can't tell from your post if you're saying Jews are silent on election fraud, or leading the fight against it. Both are definitely incorrect.

Freeman is raising valid points, and his religion has nothing to do with it. The facts speak for themselves.

Air America is not silent on election fraud. At least two of their hosts have been leading the way (Randi and Mike).

I'm guessing that your post has something to do with the fact that Ben Cohen and some of the MoveOn folks are Jewish. It don't think that has ANYTHING to do with the answer to my question.

I don't think there's any reason or value in looking at people's religion in this issue. The issue is democracy. Voting rights affect everyone.

[KaryninMiami]

7. Well stated Gary. Thank you.

[Name removed]

16. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Stevepol]

46. I have a proposal: a new political party based on....

FAIR ELECTIONS. Call it the FAIR VOTE PARTY. The platform of the party would be two and only two planks: (1) there should a voter verified ballot in every election and fair audits for every election where the votes are counted or centrally tabulated with electronic voting machines.

(2) If the Dem party pledges to do this BEFORE the election, then the party will cease and desist. If not, then there should be a serious and all-out campaign with candidates beginning today (or yesterday) trying to get as many votes as possible, as much press as possible, etc.

I sincerely believe this party would poll more than the Green Party or one of the other Independent parties. The Dems would realize that there is no way they can win the election without the support of the FAIR VOTE PARTY and would begin to seriously push for a fair vote.

Anyway, it's one avenue. And there's certainly nothing to lose. If the electronic voting is allowed to continue, the Dems stand no chance anyway.

What do you think?

[captain crunch]

11. hey what the hell

I'm jewish and I'm far from silent!!

[davidgmills]

13. Very glad to know that

[garybeck]

27. David, if it really makes any difference to you,

I'm Jewish.. the entire SolarBus Election Justice Center is run by a Jew:

http://election.solarbus.org/

Furthermore, my entire family, including my sister's inlaws, both my parents, all my grandparents (except one), all my uncles, aunts, and great uncles and aunts, every one of them HATES Bush and they all voted for Kerry.

All the Jewish friends I have can't stand Bush.

Does that make you feel any better?

peace,
Gary

[Sawyer]

31. why do you feel

you should even respond to that kind of remark?

There are Jews that are Democrats. There are (surprise!) Jews who are Republican. Why the hell should it matter. Why is David not suspicious about Buddhists in Democratic party, and what they think about possibility of election fraud? And if he does, should some Buddhist come here and tell him that his whole family voted for Kerry to make him feel better?

[garybeck]

38. I did it to show him the absurdity of his remarks

I agree with what you say, but I also think it doesn't hurt to try to guide people away from their flawed thinking whenever possible.

to tell you the truth I was rather shocked to see someone even post a message like that in the first place. I thought that most people involved in election reform got here by objective reasoning, and his "theory" was completely void of any objective reasoning.

[Sawyer]

39. But you did not -

anecdotal evidence is not evidence. If his conspiracy theory was actually true (bwahahaha) the fact that all your Jewish family voted for Kerry would have no relevance to it and would not be "proof" against it. You posting that stuff just makes you look defensive, and there is absolutely no cause to be.

[garybeck]

40. I'm not being defensive...

I don't buy the theory that people should just ignore stupid accusations.

Kerry tried ignoring the Swift Boat accusations and I think that was a mistake.

I can't say what is in David's head. But if you read his post he implies that if someone could give him examples of Jews who were not conspiring in this manner it might help him. Indeed someone else did reply and he said thanks.

You have to realize, in order for someone to make a comment like that, they are not thinking logically or objectively at all. Believe me, there are people who think Jews have horns on their heads still. It was worth a shot to show him that his ideas are way off.

I don't like the "ignore accusations" tactic. I really don't think it works. When someone makes an accusation, it can only help to point out facts and truth. It may be that all he needed was a handful of examples of Jews who are on "his" side to realize he was way off base.

Maybe not, but no harm done in my book.

[Sawyer]

41. If you show him that there are Jews who

are on "his" side - does that mean there is no "Jewish conspiracy" that he is implying? I don't think one follows from the other.

[garybeck]

47. you're using logic to explain an illogical point of view

this person has already indicated that it would be helpful if he heard about some Jews who were not conspiring.

Yes, it doesn't make any sense to me and you, but if it does to him it's worth it.

I think we can lay this thing to rest...

peace

[FreepFryer]

12. DNC Recent Activities Summary

Let's try to bring a positive message, not a negative one.

Election Reform is for sure a hugely dangerous topic for a politician, as it is a lot of negative exposure to take on for what is often an intensely local process. Many know the facts, largely due to us!

If you have concrete suggestions for other avenues that elected Democrats should be taking, contact your reps at
http://capwiz.com/thehill/home

DNC

Besides the increase in netroots outreach (blogging, email response projects, etc.), there are a number of individual bills and HAVA amendments proposed by Clinton, Dodd, Boxer, Lautenberg, Conyers, Slaughter and others, the DNC's recent public activities include (from a search for 'election reform' on their web site search):

1. DNC News: Democrats Call on President Bush to Fully Support Election Reform - Rank: 1000
...lHEADLINES MORE HEADLINES Mar 4, 2005 Democrats Call on President Bush to Fully Support Election Reform Washington, D.C. – In 2004, hundreds of thousands of people had problems voting or couldn’t ...
http://www.democrats.org/news/200503040004.html

2. DNC News: DNC to Continue Commitment to Promoting & Protecting Voting Rights Post-2004 Election - Rank: 844
...lDLINES Nov 18, 2004 DNC to Continue Commitment to Promoting & Protecting Voting Rights Post-2004 Election Will Use Data Gathered in 2004 Elections For Major Election Reform Report from DNC Voting Rights In...
http://www.democrats.org/news/200411290006.html

3. DNC News: Gov. Dean Statement on Resignation of Chairman of Voting Reform Panel - Rank: 729
...l statement in response to the resignation of Republican DeForest Soaries, the first Chairman of the Election Assistance Commission, the federal voting agency created after the 2000 election debacle. "The re...
http://www.democrats.org/news/200504250004.html

4. DNC News: Democratic National Committee Announces Ohio Election Review Team - Rank: 726
...lHEADLINES MORE HEADLINES Mar 4, 2005 Democratic National Committee Announces Ohio Election Review Team Washington, D.C. – The Democratic National Committee (DNC) announced the members of its...
http://www.democrats.org/news/200503040002.html

5. DNC News: DNC: While 2004 Election Outcome is Undisputed, It Remains Critical to Count Every Vote - Rank: 706
...lHEADLINES MORE HEADLINES Nov 10, 2004 DNC: While 2004 Election Outcome is Undisputed, It Remains Critical to Count Every Vote McAuliffe Calls on States to Outline...
http://www.democrats.org/news/200411120001.html

6. DNC News: DNC Chair McAuliffe and Voting Rights Institute Chair Donna Brazile Announce Comprehensive Investigative Study on Election Practices in Ohio - Rank: 672
...lliffe and Voting Rights Institute Chair Donna Brazile Announce Comprehensive Investigative Study on Election Practices in Ohio Washington, D.C. – Democratic National Committee (DNC) Chairman Terry McAuliffe a...
http://www.democrats.org/news/200412060007.html

7. DNC News: DNC Applauds GAO Decision to Study 2004 Election Irregularities - Rank: 604
...lHEADLINES MORE HEADLINES Nov 24, 2004 DNC Applauds GAO Decision to Study 2004 Election Irregularities McAuliffe: Nonpartisan, Expert Analysis Key to Ensuring History Does Not Repeat Itse...
http://www.democrats.org/news/200411290009.html
http://www.democrats.org/specialreports/medicarescandals/selling.html

8. Take Action: Protect the Right to Vote - Rank: 503
...lCongress. Sign our petition today and tell President Bush and Washington Republicans to demand real election reform so that the election problems of 2000 and 2004 are never repeated. Ask them to publicly supp...
http://www.democrats.org/action/200503040001.html

9. DNC News: Democrats Call on Congress to Make Voting Rights a Top Priority - Rank: 466
...lghts legislation in the 109th Congress. MCAULIFFE STATEMENT "As Congress meets to certify the 2004 election, now is the time for members to commit publicly to spending the necessary time and resources on str...
http://www.democrats.org/news/200501060001.html

10. DNC: Take Action - Rank: 300
...less. Sign our petition today and tell President Bush and Washington Republicans to work toward real election reform so that the election problems of 2000 and 2004 are never repeated. Ask them to publicly supp...
http://www.democrats.org/action/index.html

[Amaryllis]

14. Check this out. It explains a few things:

http://www.leftgatekeepers.com/chart.htm

[autorank]

15. Oh so TRUE!

There are two scenarios that lead to public awareness:

1) We keep pushing, bottom up and select supporters in Congress (e.g. Conyers, et al) and we get a break or

2) "Management" decides it's time for * to go and they tell CM (corporate media) to open the gates.

I love this chart. It explains a great deal.

If you want the answer to this question, click on Amaryllis' link!

[MissWaverly]

32. I like both options

I think it's happening now.

[garybeck]

28. I don't get it

the diagram implies that George Soros is connected to the CIA? some of those lines on there need further explanation

[GettysbergII]

50. All kinds of links on the net from both the left and right that connect

Soros with the CIA and all manner of political intrigue. Just Google.


Left links:

http://www.canadiandimension.mb.ca/extra/d1207hc.htm

http://www.civicua.org/soros/en/article25-03-2004.html#1

http://www.freedomdomain.com/soros01.html

http://www.oilempire.us/soros.html

http://www.roadsassy.com/spicedsass/archives/001067.html

http://www.leftgatekeepers.com/articles/SorosIsIndeedALatterDayRockefeller.htm

Right:

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-bloggers/1360395/posts

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/1309815/posts?page=35

http://www.burmalibrary.org/reg.burma/archives/199704/msg00222.html


And other:

http://users.cyberone.com.au/myers/soros.html

[jen4clark]

30. Go to the homepage

and you get even more info. There's links to "links" as well as several articles. I didn't know of this site until your thread Amarylis! Thank you!

Basically what it boils down to is as long as we have a choice between Dems and Repubs, we have no choice. Until a 3rd party garners enough support to challenge them we'll be stuck with the same shit, just different levels.

I know a lot of people don't like Nader, but he's been telling us this for a long time.

http://www.leftgatekeepers.com/index.htm

[Peace Patriot]

17. Kerry's concession and the DNC and other Dem leaders' silence on 2004...

...election fraud (and that would include MoveOn--it's always been very Dem Party line--and True Majority--you'd think THEY'D have a clue, given their name!) is the most baffling phenomenon I've ever seen in U.S. politics.

In California, we saw Dem Party leaders step up and do Arnold Schwarzeneggers' and the Bush Cartel's dirty work for them, in getting rid of the best Secretary of State in the country--Kevin Shelley--on electronic voting issues (forced his resignation with a vile smear campaign). The head of elections in Los Angeles County, Democrat Connie McCormick, is an advocate for paperless electronic voting and close friends with Diebold's former chief salesperson in Calif.

Go figure.

[FogerRox]

19. local DFA in NJ

Protests
Educational FOrums
Town resolutions banning DRE"S
County referendum banning DRE's

Of course I am election reform in my area but still, my local DFA is on board big time

[adolfo]

20. Missing Elements

The organizations are probably waiting for hard solid evidence that the Repubs can’t dispute. Anything less would be like painting a bull’s-eye on their forehead.

Don’t forget the common Repub tactics of damage control. They will attack the evidence but when they can’t dispute the facts, they will go after our character or ignore the issue (along with their friends like FOX news).

The evidence must be able to stand on its own.

[raipoli]

26. VelvetRevolution is working on this

VelvetRevolution.us is leading over 100 orgs on the charge for electoral reform. VR has talked with TrueMajority and was told that they do not want to support these efforts "because they won't work." VR has several local DFA affiliates working with them but the main office in Vermont will not even return phone calls. The DNC has been AWOL about supporting VR campaigns, but dozens of Democratic House Members do support them. VR is in discussions with MoveOn and hoping that MO will step up to the plate soon. All of you can help this effort by contacting these orgs and urging them to support VR campaigns. This is a no brainer since VR has been successful with most of the campaigns they launch.

[garybeck]

29. DFA - main office in Vermont...?

Have an address? I'm in Vermont and I'd love to knock on their door and have a chat.

[Carolab]

35. Here ya go.

Contact Us
Democracy for America Headquarters:
38 Eastwood Drive
Suite 300
South Burlington, VT 05403
View map

By postal mail:
P.O. Box 8313
Burlington, VT 05402

Phone: [phone]
Fax: [phone]

Online:
To send us a message via a Web form, please use our Contact Us page.
General requests: [e-mail]
Weblog-related: [e-mail]
Meetup-related: [e-mail]

[Senator]

36. OK ... lemme 'splain. No, is too much. Lemme sum-up.

A big part of the problem here is simply in the nature of liberals, in general. It is not specific to this latest election theft.

People on the left have great difficulty is seeing the constructive value of accusation and punishment. They would much rather busy themselves with "fixing the problem" than get involved with "recriminations."

Is this a sign of weakness? No, quite the oppostite. But like Bill Clinton's quiet, successful efforts against terrorism -- compared to the bushkid's noisy, failing, cowardism -- it can easily be portrayed and perceived as weakness.

Is this downright stupid? You bet. Because when you fail to accuse/punish, when warranted, you become complicit in the offense; and directly encourage future violations.

The problem comes directly from the core difference between left and right; our tendency to only speak/act based on knowlege -- their tendency to speak/act based on belief. (Hence, the guessing that there might be some sufficient level of information required to force action -- not likely.)

Can we do anything about this? Yes, we can keep doing what we're doing. Never shut up about this. Never let anyone on the left say that we "lost" either stolen election. Continue to extoll the value of accusation and punishment. Continue to point out their complicity with treason.

We can't change the nature of liberals, but we can successfully make the case for "stronger" actions. We can point to the example of Howard Dean, Barbara Boxer (Boxer08!), and Bill Clinton's refusal to surrender to the impeachment farce.

More and more liberals may soon "get it" that standing on principle may make you an "obstructionist" among the DC/Euphemedia Analstocracy, but wins you respect (and votes) outside the beltway.

----

[garybeck]

48. you are COMPLETELY missing the point

this is not about accusation and punishment.

it's about having fair elections in the future. it's about whether or not we live in a democracy. it's about fixing the privatization of our election system which has been sold off to exclusively republican owned companies.

It's fine if the liberals and democrats don't want to punish the theives who stole the 2004 election. But it is NOT FINE if they allow it to happen again, which is what they are doing.

[Senator]

49. Actually, you are MAKING my point for me

I don't think there's any disagreement on what it's "about."

But you asked why they're acting as if they're afraid of the "conspiracy theorist" label or are ignorant of the facts of the election theft.

They are not "ignoring election problems." They are all supporting "improvements" and "revisions" to the laudable bipartisan efforts to contiue needed reforms and upadates to our "envy of the world" blah...blah...blah...

What they are NOT doing is being honest about what has already come to pass. And that includes making accusations against "exclusively republican owned companies." Even that would be a far cry from admitting the reality; that a failed system was gamed to produce 2 consecutive anti-democratic "coups" (with the resulting state of technical fascism).

My only observation/explanation was that as long as they consider it "fine" to not accuse and punish, when warranted, they're already half way to allowing it to happen again. (Not to mention complicit with the previous violations.)

Their "blah, blah method" has been ongoing for literally decades and has brought us to where we are today.

--

[Cookie wookie]

37. True Majority and MoveOn helped us last year

in Georgia, when we were working to get our voter verified paper ballot legislation out of House committee and on to the floor for a vote. They generated mailings to Georgia members, who phoned and faxed etc their reps. We lost in the effort but we made a big showing, which didn't help us get our Vote Count Protection Act passed this year, but it did get us the opportunity to have hearings on the voting system, which are to be scheduled this summer, led by senate Republicans.

Thanks again True Majority and MoveOn!

When I asked my contact at MoveOn why they weren't taking on the issue in broader terms, he said that they were concerned that people wouldn't register to vote if they thought there was a problem with the voting system. That left me baffled for sure, since it doesn't matter how many people register (read 2004 election) if the code in the machines is counting the votes however the programmers and their bosses want them counted.

But we were grateful for their help. After all, folks, MoveOn isn't a big operation in terms of staffing. They are just a few people running the organization and the rest of their work gets done by those of us who are members of the org and actually donate or pitch in to do the work on their actions. It's phenomenal what they (and we) have accomplished.

Okay, as to Howard Dean. He knows all about the issue and is on it.

Let's don't forget that there are a number of Democrats, like Boxer, Conyers, Cynthia McKinney and others who have been fighting on this issue as well.

[GuvWurld]

45. Kick (eom)

[demodonkey]

51. I don't know but they do so at their (and our) peril. eom