Olbermann: Fraud Charges Persist; Kerry Pulled Rug Out from Recount

[BayStateBoy]

More about persisting reports of voter fraud that won't go away.

How Kerry's concession telegraphed the wrong signal and stopped any momentum for recounts. (Everybody go home now.)

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6210240/

[still_one]

1. Not true AAR just announced recounts are starting in New Hampshire

[BayStateBoy]

6. So What? Recounts Will Get No Where w/o Candidate Support

and that means Kerry not Nader. Nader was not on the Ohio Ballot. Florida needs to be recounted.

NH recount is fine but no substitute for OH and FL

[hippiegranny]

54. but MAYBE NH is a red herring,

or a toe in the water, so to speak. If fraud is proven in NH by Nader, it gives Kerry an acceptable opening to say, "well, it happened there, so I think we need to investigate further...let's start with Ohio..."

[Hobbes199]

72. Plus it's cheaper...

...Fewer precincts. It's also a good starting point since it showed the greatest discrepancy between exit polls and results. And he was on the ballot there — does anyone know if he actually has to be on the ballot to be considered a loser, or can he have gotten any votes at all?

And Hi.

[life_long_dem]

71. Ohio provisional ballots haven't been counted yet.

Wouldn't it make more sense to ask for a re-count after all ballots have been counted?

Kerry is a CLOSER remember? LOL

[bullimiami]

20. well we can all thank ralph nader for that one.

politics aside. there goes an honest and upstanding citizen. ralph nader.

[Bread and Circus]

2. It's a great article, a must read.

[PATRICK]

3. In defense of Kerry

His recount territories were hopeless tarbabies herded to oblivion without the bigger picture and would have buried the big picture worse than 2000 and the possible "unconcession".

Forlorn hope, but a glimmer is left. The bigger complaint is that this BBV never should have been tolerated to sneak into 2004 unfaced to begin with. Never should have left the legitimacy of exit polls to languish as a check on the vote. Never should have put innocent campaign workers into the fog then left them there. Never should presume that there are other strategies to facing down a lie and a coup. Never should have left the vote issue itself into unfunded and fragile hands. Never should betray ignorance of the truth or be as blind as the victims you want to deliver.

[XNASA]

4. I wouldn't be so quick to accuse Kerry of quitting.

Al Gore immediately cried foul and look where it got him.

I suspect that there's more here than meets the eye and that the Kerry camp might be playing a little Rope-a-Dope.

To what end? Dunno. But as we know, the best way to accomplish anything is to keep it out of the Media and under the radar.

[JuniperLea]

8. didn't kerry raise money in case of a recount?

i thought the concession was a rush job too... in order to get down to the real business of investigating the election fraud...

so, where did the money go? is he working on this yet? anyone? there MUST be more to this than we know... as always.

[Clinton Crusader]

33. Im wondering about that too//maybe they should give it all to Bev Harris

[Omaha Steve]

45. We bought her book ages ago

My wife Marta and I donated to her non profit site the day after the election when we knew something was up again.

[dmac]

35. don't cha know

that if this silence is driving all of us crazy that it must be driving those on the other side, contemplating their next move, crazy as well? and don't cha think that if they clue us in, they may as well send an announcement to the Bush camp as well? Patience, people - patience and faith.

[JuniperLea]

50. excellent point!

good thinking!

i've not given up on kerry yet. as another poster said, i hope he is turning his boat towards the enemy right now!

he is an honorable man. i won't give up this easily. he's a fighter. i'm in for the long haul.

[newyawker99]

60. Hi dmac!!

Welcome to DU!! :toast:

[On the Road]

46. Hell Yes, I Gave Kerry $25 for His Recount Fund

I was counting on his actually making use of that money.

[BayStateBoy]

9. Appearances are Everything. He stopped the momentum.

He could have made a concession speech and still messaged to his armies to proceed.

[XNASA]

12. Appearances are nothing more than fascades.

That's why they're called 'appearances'.

:shrug:

[BayStateBoy]

14. Fascades are politics. Kerry derailed everything, but all is not lost.

The whole thing could still revive but time is getting short and the story still has no legs.

[Kathy in Cambridge]

18. BTW it's spelled facade

signed,
the grammar & spelling police

;-)

[XNASA]

21. Dam It!!!!

[glitch]

40. I like fascade. Not necessarily for Kerry, withholding judgement until

12/12 but definitely for the fascist corporate media.

[signmike]

26. Grammer

Aww, my Grammer couldn't spell, neither. Nor Gramper.
Kin the Po-leece?

[John Q. Citizen]

58. Kerry did send us message. It was clear.

The votes will be counted and all the votes will count, he said.
Not by litigation but by the people.


Sounds like he wants us to get involved and to do it.

And we are.

Ju jitsu.

What was the alternative? Let the Repos take to the airwaves and shape the battle as "sore loser trying to steal the election."

We've been there and done that, and they kicked our ass. I think our odds are a lot better this time.

(speeling on edit, copper!)

[molly]

13. It is apparent to me that some posters LIKE to make

Kerry look bad - maybe it's because their first choice didn't make it thru the primary. I'm getting pretty damn sick of the Kerry bashing around here. I think he is an extremely intelligent man that will do what he needs to do if he thinks he has the chance of winning.

[dmac]

36. and probably IS

doing what he needs to do, albeit, quietly.

[JuniperLea]

51. i'm with you, molly!

i'm sick of it too.

[springhill]

29. You know what?

I don't care. He's saving himself for 2008, well isn't that special. He doesn't really have to worry about the Bush-Cheney policies for the next four years. They are wealthy enough that they can do anything they like. Someone, and I hoped it was going to be him, well maybe because he said it was, needs to stand up for the people that supported him and are going to be drowning for the next four years in filth, corruption and dying.

[JuniperLea]

52. chill out!

it's only been a week. no one knows for sure what's in his mind. give him a chance.

[InAbLuEsTaTe]

47. Kerry claimed he was a fighter, but he wimped out and I'm pissed . . .

XNASA, I wish you were right about the "rope-a-dope" thing, but it looks like he quit before we had a chance to prove our case and now he looks more like just a "dope."

We still need to expose these Repuke frauds so we never get stuck with another chimp in the White House.

Howard Dean would never have given up, NEVER! . . . howdeani

[John Q. Citizen]

59. Has Dean called the election fraud?

No, because he knows what's up better that you, obvioulsly.

[LamedVov]

5. Focus on the Future

I'd rather focus on the future then rehash the 04 election. Remember, Reagan and Bush, Sr. won in the 1980's but that didn't stop the Democrats from winning in the 90's.

[Name removed]

10. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[krkaufman]

19. All voting irregularities in this election must be identified...

... if we're going to do anything to insure they aren't perpetuated in all future elections. Information gathering and review *is* looking to the future.

[mountainvue]

22. Is that Ohio in that photograph?

What time was that taken?

[krkaufman]

23. Yes, Ohio. Not sure what time it was.

But it was late; I believe it may have been after the polls were supposed to have closed. (But don't take my word for it.)

MSNBC was the source.

[ParanoidPat]

70. You do that!

We'll take care of this election without you, OK? :evilgrin:

[seimmud]

7. is it me or

is Olbermann the only dude who seems to be looking at this?

[BayStateBoy]

11. That's Affirmative

[DoobieToo]

44. It takes Olbermann to make Chrissy look mainstream

[newyawker99]

62. Hi DoobieToo!!

Welcome to DU!! :toast:

[newyawker99]

61. Hi seimmud!!

Welcome to DU!! :toast:

[tngledwebb]

15. Olbermann pulls his punches.

The CT label always gets thrown in. Corp media always have one or two 'liberals' on staff to tout the lefty issues (on occasion) to make us think we're getting most of the news. We're not

[tngledwebb]

16. Sorry

dupe

[krkaufman]

17. VIDEO: Tuesday's Countdown segment on voting here....

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=203x35078

[JPZenger]

24. Interesting Links Between the Vote Machine Companies

This was re-posted on www.dailykos.com, but the person didn't include the original source:

"Who's behind these private companies? It's hard to tell: The corporate lines - even the bloodlines - of these "competitors" are so intricately mixed. For example, at Diebold ... the election division is run by Bob Urosevich. Bob's brother, Todd, is a top executive at "rival" ES&S. The brothers were originally staked in the vote-count business by Howard Ahmanson, a member of the Council for National Policy, a right-wing "steering group" stacked with Bushist faithful.

Ahmanson is also one of the bagmen behind the extremist "Christian Reconstructionist" movement, which openly advocates a theocratic takeover of American democracy, placing the entire society under the "dominion" of "Christ the King." This "dominion" includes the death penalty for homosexuals, exclusion of citizenship for non-Christians, stoning of sinners and - we kid you not - slavery, "one of the most beneficent of Biblical laws." Ahmanson also has major holdings in ES&S, whose former CEO is Republican Senator Chuck Hagel of Nebraska. When Hagel ran for office, his own company counted the votes; needless to say, his initial victory was reported as "an amazing upset." Hagel still has a million-dollar stake in the parent company of ES&S. In Florida, Jeb Bush's first choice for a running mate in his 1998 gubernatorial race was ES&S lobbyist Sandra Mortham, who made a mint installing the machines that counted Jeb's votes.

Ahmanson, counter of America's votes, has admitted "My purpose is total integration of biblical law into our lives." Now, and in light of mounting and massive evidence of anomalies favouring the Republican ticket, which is more incredible: that fundamentalists would allow unaudited virtual ballots to be hacked in order to further the establishment of God's law upon American lives, or that George Bush won 51% of the vote? (Coincidentally, the 51/48 split was the margin Dick Cheney forecast a week before the election.)..

Ahmanson inherited his money from his father, owner of Home Savings & Loan (during the S&L scandal of the Reagan years, Home's investors, mostly small family investments, lost over $150 million dollars. No one went to jail). In addition to funding PACs and think tanks, Howard Jr. parlayed his fortune into the majority stock of a business called American Information Systems (AIS) started by two enterprising brothers, Todd and Bob Urosevich. AIS later merged with BRC and became Election Systems & Solutions (ES&S). ES&S is the number one provider of touch-screen voting machines. Their website claims that their products were used in collecting 56% of the national vote in the last presidential elections.

Todd Urosevich is now Vice President of ES&S. Strangely enough, brother Bob moved on to head the second largest computerized vote-counting business, Global Election Systems, recently purchased by ATM and security giant Diebold. (They now have both the Ohio and Georgia contracts.) In a round table swap of incestuous patronage the previous executives of Global moved on to head the third largest vote-counting company in the nation, Advanced Voting Systems. Combined, these three corporations will process nearly 80% of the next nationwide elections."

[City Lights]

25. Interesting quote from Craig Crawford:

"My experience with Election Supervisors is that they're very independent, often real characters, hard people to actually organize into a conspiracy. I think it'd be easier to herd a bunch of cats across a parking lot."

I emailed Keith last night after discovering that Leslie Spaeth is a ** elector, Warren County Ohio GOP Chairman, and a member of the Warren County Ohio Board of Elections. Other DUers should point this out to Keith so it doesn't fall through any cracks. :-) Leslie Spaeth is anything but independent. :grr:

[e-mail]

[jjanpundt]

30. Doesn't conflict of interest start coming into the equation

when Election supervisors and Secretary of States that oversee elections are chairman of a candidates state campaign? Wouldn't matter to me for whichever party IMO if they oversee elections, voting equipment, etc. they should be out of the loop for a campaign seat.

[Straight Shooter]

31. Craig Crawford said it. Well, then, it must be true.

"My experience with Election Supervisors is that they're very independent, often real characters, hard people to actually organize into a conspiracy. I think it'd be easier to herd a bunch of cats across a parking lot."

Dear Mr. Crawford:
My experience with talking heads is that they once had integrity. Now, however, they can all be easily herded into a corral where they can be taught all kinds of tricks for the amusement of the corporations which own them.

[donkeyotay]

34. "easily herded" indeed

I like Olbermann (I don't watch him anymore, but I'm sure he's a good guy.), but I can't get too excited when he slips in a small piece of what's said here, especially with the eye-rolling caveats of conspiracy theories. I think he's just a safely valve, a sop to soak up some of the discontent while the Wurlitzer works on it.

Ain't that cheerful? I'm with the other posters on this thread that mentioned that we don't have 4 more years to beg for representation. We don't have jobs, health care or hope. Who speaks for us? If not now, then when?

[anamandujano]

49. kind of like this

"There was no overwhelming reason to cast doubt on the outcome of this election," seconded Democratic strategist Donna Brazile, the campaign manager for Al Gore's 2000 campaign. "George Bush got more votes this time."

from the link to the ABC story below

http://abcnews.go.com/WNT/story?id=239735&page=1

-----------

I hope Keith's not doing what you're saying. As you say, we are out of time.

[Robert Oak]

27. Damn Straight, thank you Olbermann

I am getting disgusted with the DNC.

Gore dropped out of political life not because of the recount, but
because he lost to an idiot. Now that Kerry has also lost, the DNC
might stop blaming their candidates and look deeper.

It doesn't matter what the "real" results are. The issue here is a horrendous voting system in a country that claims to be a Republic and supposedly the American people have a say.

Without a good election system, we have no say in essence.

They spend millions on ads, on marketing focus groups and so on...

yet they lay down when it comes to having a secure voting system.

Can't they see the obvious?

The evidence is massive, both in 2000 and now that the entire voting system is inaccurate at minimum and at maximum, an entire election can be hacked up and stolen.

If they won't fight for a nationwide fair election system, what the hell is the point of the rest?

[progressivebydesign]

28. Gee... thanks Kerry...

"Craig also connected a few unpleasant dots. Kerry, he says, is “definitely interested in running in 2008,” and the image of Gore’s political death after the 2000 re-count may have played as much of a part in his hurried concession as any realistic appraisal of his chances in reversing the election by reversing Ohio."

I've been trying to be nice about the whole Kerry conceding too soon, thing... BUT when I think of his millions of dollars and fatcat lifestyle that will NOT change with Bush back in office, as opposed to those of us that are struggling and those going over the edge financially because of Bush's policies.. well.. it pisses me off beyond belief. Glad Kerry kept himself so nice and spotless for 2008, however.. his cutting tail and running gives him a HUGE negative amongst the voters he'll need again.

[corky44]

32. Olbermann Explains 93,000 Over count?

I was a precinct captain responsible for the GOTV effort for 330 dems in my neighborhood so excuse my ignorance on the subject but, don't the registered voter lists
at the precinct level INCLUDE anybody that would vote Absentee? I mean, you don't know who is voting Absentee and those doing so are not kept
on a separate list to be added later. Answer me this: How can %160 voter turnout (or %1100) be explained away by adding Absentee voters that should
already be on the list? After all you can not vote Absentee unless you are registered and if you are registered you show up on the precinct list from the get go.

Just wondering,
SC

[Helga Scow Stern]

39. Why not e-mail that concern to Olbermann....

[e-mail]

[corky44]

57. Over Count Blues

I did email Olbermann this morning. The basis for this story has got to be
if a precinct has a finite amount of registered voters there is no way that
the amount of cast votes can LEGALLY exceed the the number of
registered voters no matter how they voted.
Am I missing something?

[dbonds]

41. Exactly

Over-count is based on registered voters, not those that showed up at the polls. Even provisionals should be part of the registered voters unless you assume they are all invalid.

But I think I heard something about absentee ballots for a whole county being added to each presinct in the county causing the over-vote - that is how all the over-votes were the same value for presincts in the same county. But there is so much spin and rewriting of data it is hard to keep up.

Edit for after thought.

[newyawker99]

63. Hi corky44!!

Welcome to DU!! :toast:

[corky44]

67. Thanks for the great welcome!

[JPZenger]

37. Technical Studies on Voting Machine Vulnerabilities

By a professor at Johns Hopkins University:

http://avirubin.com/vote.pdf

-----
Good source of inf. on topic:

www.verifiedvoting.org
-----

Professor Rubin was also part of a team that criticized the security of internet voting:

http://www.jhunewsletter.com/vnews/display.v/ART/2004/02/06/4022f0c870726

Excerpt:"The report outlines some of the difficulties the SERVE system shares with the Direct Recording Electronic (DRE) voting system; the software is not sufficiently proven in testing, it is vulnerable to exploitation of the system by malicious programmers, and there is no paper or audit trail that can be used to verify a person's vote."

[snot]

38. Where the people lead

Kerry will be attacked no matter what he does; we've all been boxed into a terrible corner.

I understand the frustration. But for now, I think it's really best that we, the people spearhead the issue from the grassroots level.

No matter how great the evidence of fraud may be, we should expect a huge battle. Those who demand investigation will be bombarded with everything the other side can muster. Their credibility will be undermined; their careers may be destroyed. If Kerry had demanded a recount or the like, esp. before the evidence was developed, there would have been a firestorm. Remember how Gore was attacked; and this would be far worse. Because if election fraud on the most ambitious scale ever imagined (at least in the US) has, in fact, been committed, it's a do-or-die situation for those who engineered or condoned it.

If there is a huge, continuing outcry by enough people, an official investigation will be commenced, and at some point, Kerry and others can step into it, without looking like mere muckrakers.

For now, I think it's really important that we keep up our energy and determination, keep raising a hue and cry, and keep pushing the ball along.

[kimchi]

68. Welcome to DU, snot!

And your first sentence is spot on!

[LagunaSlick]

42. ABC News story debunking common theories

http://abcnews.go.com/WNT/story?id=239735&page=1

[Catherine Vincent]

43. What debunking? Because ABC says so?

[Disgruntled American]

48. nader

ummm, were are our elected officals on this?

Not one of them have stepped up.

The only one is ralph nader.

Maybe we should have voted for him, oh wait, the election was rigged, doesnt really matter who we voted for,.,,

[newyawker99]

64. Hi Disgruntled American!!

Welcome to DU!! :toast:

[intelle]

53. My letter to ABC

I am very surprised that ABC is not willing to entertain the possibility that there is some credibility to the so-called "conspiracy theories" concerning election 2004.

If thousands of citizens (and counting) are taking this seriously -- seriously enough to sign petitions and contribute money to such organizations as HelpAmericaRecount.org, then I think it is the duty of our media to also take this seriously.

Who are you serving anyway? Is it the Republican party and associated corporate interests, or is it the American public? Never mind. I already know the answer.

Karl Rove as person of the week tells me loud-and-clear where your priorities are.

While you have lost a viewer, the American public has not lost. We have become very aware of media bias and of who the media is actually serving. And, we will get at the truth. Unfortunately, it will be without your help.

At least MSNBC has the courage to investigate this issue without labeling it a conspiracy before the facts are known.

Shame on you.

[Generator]

56. Karl Rove as person of the week

Oh, man, that's it. I'm NEVER watching ABC "news" again.

[kimchi]

69. Hi intelle!

Glad to have you here at DU. You've written a kick-ass letter!

[evolvenow]

55. I believe that Kerry and his team, and all of us...will turn it around

This morning it became so clear...if you are up against such a Massive Lie, the only way to get the truth out, would be to spend years gathering all of the info and then wait until the last minute possible to announce the Truth.

This way they catch this violent administration with their proverbial "pants down" That would be the most powerful way and I really feel in my gut, that that is what is going to happen. Please let it be true. Like everyone here, I will continue to be relentless in getting the word out. Thanks DUers!!

[newyawker99]

65. Hi evolvenow!!

Welcome to DU!! :toast:

[wantkerryin]

66. not the REAL msnbc page

it's now blank...