I say push for voter fraud, but concede to the election

[johnnie]

I believe that all the work that is being done to prove that this past election was once again a sham is well worth the effort. It needs to be shown that a hell of a lot of people voted and it either didn't count or it was a check in the wrong box.
I also think it might be a good idea to not push for a turnover of the election. Even if by some miracle they find that Kerry actually won, I say we say "Thanks, but no thanks". Let bush clean up his mess. What I think would be worse for us right now is a LBJ administration.
The mess in Iraq is getting worse people, way worse. I don't see any huge upswing on the economic horizon and all in all this country is in deep shit.
We have the numbers to really make a difference in the next four years and I believe that it might be in the best interest of everybody if we work it from that angle.
As I said, I still think the voting issue needs to be mainstream information, but I also would like the "No thank you" to be just as mainstream. Four years will go fast and we still have a lot of work we can do to help change a lot of things that we are concerned with.

[Lefta Dissenter]

1. I don't get it

so if it had been clear that Kerry had won a week ago, would you have said 'no thanks' then?

Four years will do forever's worth of damage to the environment and the Supreme Court.

[pleiku52cab]

2. let awol clean up his own mess

It is not 'his own mess' - it is our mess - the one we are living through it right now - it will only get worse

[johnnie]

12. Of course it will only get worse

If John Kerry steps in he would have quite a battle to fight in the next four years and the mess will just keep on getting messier.
It would be a four year term of him defending his presidency and four years of the continuation of the shit hitting the fan. Let's not forget what they did to Clinton.

[murielm99]

3. We should be pushing the news of voter fraud, even if

it does nothing to overturn the election. (I don't think it will).

We need to get enough news of this out there so that it taints the legitimacy of shrubs election and his presidency.

That taint, combined with the mess he is making, will help to discredit him and his supporters.

I think we also need to continue to blast them on their so-called moral values. War and bigotry are not moral values.

[johnnie]

14. That's what I am saying

There is just too much work to do all the way around.

[NVMojo]

26. and then maybe we can impeach him.....

[The Flaming Red Head]

4. What election? I didn't see an election. nt

[WyLoochka]

5. If it comes to be proven that

we elected John Kerry, which I am 99% sure of at this point - we have no other choice but to demand of our elected reps and the judiciary that they force BushCo out of our White House. If they won't do it - we will have to be prepared to go physically to DC and go in there and drag them out ourselves.

I understand your observations that BushCo has made such a mess it would be difficult to clean up, nonetheless we simply cannot allow a proven illegitimate fraud to stay in office.

[Lilli]

7. If I heard this correctly, there would be nothing that could be done

legally (including impeachment)if he's already taken the oath of office UNLESS its proven he had knowledge of the fraud.


Did anyone else hear this as well?

[The Flaming Red Head]

8. The US is over. There is no democracy only a theocracy.

Roe vs Wade will fall, Bush will continue to invade countries until he bankrupts us, The Patriot Act 2 will be enacted, the Religious right will continue to remove right after right, including freedom of speech, our kids are going to die (in this insane war machine) Many of us will end up going to jail over this!!!!!

This was too fucking important to concede.


The nerve of our supposed leadership in the Democratic Party to do this to us. How dare they!

[LisaL]

15. That's what I heard.

However, Nixon resigned. It's not impossible.
How is it going to look if Bush stays on even if FRAUD is proven?
At the very least he couldn't run around telling everyone he got a MaNDate.

[LittleClarkie]

37. It might help to embolden the opposition in his own party

It's not just us who see this folks. Not all Repubs are down with this shit either.

[johnnie]

16. Yes

That's the law.

[NVMojo]

27. we have alot of work to do before January 20th

[rpannier]

6. I say focus on the Voter fraud first

but never concede the election. As long as we focus on the voter fraud, then it appears less partisan. But, we have to hit and hit hard. Just like they would.

[neohippie]

9. How can we call this Democracy?

At the very least there is obviously a lot of people who don't trust the system we have. It didn't function well, and we can't let the e-voting people keep releasing stories about how there were little or no problems.

Every vote should count, their needs to be reform. Overturning this election is not my goal. Ensuring that elections are fair and accurate and that voter registration and voting is easier should be our ultimate goals.

[rpannier]

13. And I agree totally

But to try and make it harder for the media to spin this, we should focus on voter fraud and if the opportunity arises then we try and get the White House.

[LisaL]

10. Smart. Real smart.

How is he going to fix his own mess? If he could, would he have gotten us into the mess in the first place? He will only get us into the bigger mess.
:eyes:

[johnnie]

17. Well, I didn't quite mean him to "fix" it

We all know that will never happen. What I meant was for him to wallow in his own shit. I am well aware that he got us into a lot of crap right now, and I doubt it will be fixed with just getting John Kerry in to office. It is still going to take a lot of work from all of us to get things changed.

[LisaL]

18. He might get us into such shit, no one will be able to get us out.

[johnnie]

20. Unless you mean that the world is going to blow all to hell

I don't know what you mean that no one will ever get us out of it?

[Cronus Protagonist]

11. Hahahahaaa You people are SOOO funny :)

It's amazing how many "DU'ers" are suddenly, after a long and protracted campaign and suffering under 4 years of an unelected fraud, willing to toss in the towel, quit complaining about all the very clear evidence of fraud and let Bush be in charge, EVEN IF KERRY WON!

Obviously you haven't been with us all this time, have you?

We will not surrender to the BFEE. We will fight the bastards tooth and nail. We will take this country back one way or another. Really, if you're going to try a troll, you should do more research first.

[johnnie]

19. You don't read very well do you?

I said that we should continue to try to prove fraud and to make sure it gets out there.
I've been here for two years, so I don't know how long it takes for me to be as "cool" as you, but I am quite aware of the situation we are in, and I don't need to read one website to know that.
"Bush be in charge,"... Do you really think that he is in charge?
I think you need to do some research yourself and find out how the system works and not shoot your mouth off because you don't like one opinion.

[Cronus Protagonist]

32. uuummm you said even if Kerry wins we should let Bush run the country

I think your moral compass is showing. Keep posting, though, we need some levity here now that we're in a banana republic.

I'll use your own phrase here, for what you're selling, NO THANK YOU.

[ironrooster]

29. I had to reply to this one -

this is a long term battle - a revolution if you will -
No real reform has occured in the country unless some really Bad shit has gone down. I think some really bad shit has already gone down & it's gonna get worse. It just has to get bad enough for the average Joe to see. I can assure you that I'm probably a bit more 'left' than the average poster in this forum. The GOP needs to be destroyed. corporate power needs to be SIGNIFICANTLY weakened. We need to promote a liberal curricullum within the primary and secondary schools. We also need to be aware that right wing religious ideologues
are actively infiltrating our universities - and therefore disturbingly giving legitimacy to their ideals. The Great Depression made Social Security possoble. I'm not wishing for a disaster mind you, but I think that's what we as a people are going to have to endure for any real and lasting change. Once we have our boot on the head of the snake the next time & there will be a next time, we need to crush it without any moral trepidation. I also think vote tampering ought to be made a treasonable offence punishable by death.
So please save your 'troll' comments for somebody who gives a shit & give johnnie a break.

[johnnie]

31. Thanks

When I was younger I had a lot more piss and vinegar in my system, but I have learned a bit more patience. I agree that this shit has to be dealt with at full steam and I see the the "revolution" on the horizon. This past year has shown how some people are getting pissed, and it will only elevate as time goes on. Knocking out Custer didn't win Little Bighorn, the Sioux and Cheyenne Indians had a plan and kicked some ass.

[Cronus Protagonist]

33. You're a Naderite, aren't you?

If not, you should go check out some of his mneetings. I think you'll like being among people of like mind.

Darth Nader got what he wanted, 4 more years of Bush, two steps back for the mere possibility of half a step forward, but more likely a rapid slide into the quarry of fascism instead.

Way to go, Nader, but this is DEMOCRATIC Underground, not Nader Central, or the GOP, which is why your comments sound so, well, so out of place here where we want Kerry to win and will fight for it.

You and your buddy are practically salivating for another 4 years of Bush. Who's side are you on anyway?

[The Flaming Red Head]

38. Nader was like an air bag, the first time we used him, he killed US

the second time, not so much impact, but it didn't fucking matter the second time cause we were already dead.

[PATRICK]

21. You mean "us" concede?

A little premature on our part. The concession already happned. The possibility of unconceding is rather mirage-like.

Might as well keep doing the job because somehow that concession stuff is out of our hands entirely.

[johnnie]

22. I guess that is basically what I meant

I would just like the efforts to be more on the invalidity of this election rather than going for the presidency. It looks like sour grapes if we try too hard to get it all.
The word "concede" means to acknowledge grudgingly, and I think that's what was done on John Kerry's part....so far.

[PATRICK]

24. You "think" that's what was done

The last time Kerry was clear about the 2000 concession he dissed people like us heartily and scornfully.

Conceding the truth gracefully is a lie in itself if you know as much as we do. I submit to dictatorship like any other peon. I reserve the right to my beliefs. If we participate in forums at all I will not concede anything but illegal defeat.

Even had * garnered a plurality or electoral vote underneath the honest numbers, the election is forever marred by fraud and so is any other hope for a future election. We cannot concede the future. Hope itself. it is tied together, the anchor around our neck.

Uncahlengeable conquest of America is something we should pretend does not exist?

We have eaten the sour grapes and the children's teeth are set on edge. Hey, everything outrageous out there is a destructive lie. Why should truth be excluded because of its unpopularity?

[johnnie]

25. My op was in favor of proving fraud

I would like us to make a big enough noise out there to prove without a doubt the crimes that took place last week. And I don't want anyone to forget it either. In my opinion, 2000 became too much of a "joke" with a lot of people and it remains to be seen as such. I would hate to make that same mistake twice, and I have a feeling that John Kerry stepped back for the same reason. We have no real way of knowing at this time what he is, or was, thinking.

[ironrooster]

23. only IF the mainstream media openly & without a doubt

recognizes that Kerry would have won the election if the votes hadn't been tampered. I'm inclined to agree that a Bush win may be better in the long run b/c he is going to screw things up sooooooo badly in his second term. In the short term - it sucks - of course. Maybe when the GOP is shown to be the bunch of thugs (WE) already know they are, we can get down to some real reform. I definitely think Dems need to OWN more of the media (ala Murdoch) & that's something we can work on while the chimp holds court.

[PATRICK]

30. Looking at my chains

I wonder where this dismal hope is coming from without overthrowing the system. The people will 'see"- in the same way they are seeing NOW? It will get worse than lazy indifference to horrible truths the world sees quite clearly.

Will "change"? The system is advancing to a hardening of the means of deliberate theft and voter discouragement will be likelier than revolt.

What has to be done keeps pointing to those successfully holding the means to change and power. Blind striking out will lead to worse or at least to blind destruction and civil breakdown. That or the morass.

No one can trust blandly to the rescue of such a system by anything where no line is drawn, no group or institution....

The Alamo. Travis has jumped the wall and is congratulating Santa Ana.

"Do you think he has a plan?"
"Dunno Davey, did he beat you to it?"
"I guess Houston ain't coming weither."
"He's got a plan too, I reckon."
"Shoot, what do we do now?"
"Shoot and keep shooting, I guess."

[Bridget Burke]

28. It's not our place to concede; it's already been done.

Whether or not there's any "unconceding" this year is not up to us, either.

But all the smart tactics for "next time" won't mean anything unless the votes are counted.

[Straight Shooter]

34. I don't want to look back 20 years from now and regret inaction now

Every day bush is in, our future is being sucked into a big black hole.

Concede? Not a chance. That thief gets no reprieve from me.

[Carolab]

35. You're entitled to your opinion

and I'm entitled to mine that your opinion is crap.

This election needs to be audited. Period.
Whoever won needs to be proven beyond a shadow of any doubt. Period.

[Sanity Claws]

36. Hell no

Hell no. That's plain stupid.
No one has the authority to concede the power of my vote, or anyone else's.