PLEASE READ: WHY ARE WE POSTING EXACTLY WHAT WE'RE DOING

[BernieBear]

IN A TOTALLY OPEN FORUM? People are giving results here and then suddenly those result pages at the source are being changed. This needs to quit. This is like being a prosecutor and "brainstorming" our case in front of the defendant. We need to quit f&^cking around like this.

PLEASE HELP.......

[Tandalayo_Scheisskopf]

1. Are you sure...

That is exactly what is being done? Are yousure that this is not all some grand disinfo campaign?

You can never tell...;-)

[Eloriel]

2. No, it doesn't need to quit -- BUT, those pages need to be saved

in triplicate to numerous hard disks before the questionable data is published here.

[BernieBear]

3. All I know is anyone can come read all these posts

and say, ok, I know what they're up to.

[Straight Shooter]

4. Eloriel, you're absolutely right

We need to share info amongst ourselves. If people are spying for their own purposes, so be it. The foolish always look to the wise to find the path of knowledge.

Ack! I just got possessed by a philosophical monk!

[meisje]

6. What good would a saved page do?

It can be edited

[Spera]

14. what about webcaching sites? n/t

[burythehatchet]

5. I've had the same concern

its like there's people here doing the investigating, we post the clues, and the Thugs know exactly what they need to cover-up. Remember, this IS 1984.

[Ducks In A Row]

7. because the rethugs and the media aren't interested

they think they have us cowed and defeated.

they also think we'll never prove any of it

it's hubris on their part, and we take advantage of it.

[splat]

8. transparency's a bitch, but it's the only way

[TruthOutDawg]

9. Question on that...

I was really bugged that until yesterday afternoon, there was a difference of like 230,000 more votes than voters (turnout) in Florida (according to their own docs., BUT then yesterday afternoon (PST about 4:00pm it seemed) those numbers were "updated" and suddenly the numbers matched up... what the hell happened? HOW were they fixed? Does anyone know if there's anymore info. on this on another thread - has this been or is it being discussed elsewhere? Thanks!

[crispini]

11. They get to change all that shit until the election

is "certified." From what I've heard that's just kind of SOP. Now, WHY they changed it... that's the REAL story.... but I'm not sure how we get it. Calling and talking to the SOS, that might be worth a shot.

[rhosgobel]

20. I have Florida data from Sunday

I posted about the Florida county data, including the raw numbers, on Sunday evening, and I also posted about the changes that occurred on Monday. They updated more data on Tuesday as well.

First post: http://rhosgobel.blogspot.com/2004/11/florida-election-turnout-vs.html
Second post: http://rhosgobel.blogspot.com/2004/11/update-florida-election-turnout-vs.html

[frustrated_lefty]

10. Chill

Two reasons.

1. What's been drilled into my head is that no matter how many times you delete, a record is kept on the computer and a specialist can retrieve it. They can't delete things simply by knowing what info we pursue.

2. We are pursuing truth. Others obfuscate. We defeat our own purpose by being less than honest.

FL

[Arianrhod]

13. #1 is false.

A deleted record is flagged as "empty disk space" until it is overwritten. There is an indeterminate window of opportunity for recovering deleted data. After that, it's lost forever.

[glugglug]

15. a DELETED file is

a deleted file is just flagged as empty space. An UPDATED file or DB record is OVERWRITTEN. On a modern hard drive, the data is on a near atomic scale and CANNOT be recovered after an overwrite.

[ParanoidPat]

19. Having spent a number of years building hard drives.......

......for the largest HD manufacturer in the world I can safely say that you don't have a clue. :)

Even on drives that have bit densities on the order of several GB per square inch running at speeds in excess of 20,000 rpm using thin film MR (magneto-resistive) head technology, I can retrieve data that has been overwritten several times. By using a STEM (Scanning Tunneling Electron Microscope) and relying on the fact that the individual bits will never wind up in the exact same place from one write cycle to the next, it's possible to read 3 or 4 data sets that have been over written. It just depends on how much time and money you want to spend to retrive the data.

The Department of Defense requires a minimum of 7 overwrites with a random pattern of 1's and 0's to declare a drive wiped of sensitive data.
The higher Gutmann standard uses 35 overwrites for the most sensitive files.

But all that means nothing to election data that is stored on memory cards. I can use the same technology to read the ghost imprint of the data that was last recorded on the chips, even after the memory has been cleared.

Be afraid! :scared: Or just get a copy of Window Washer or any of a number of programs that allow you to wipe files and slack space as many times as you want each time you shut down your computer.

[frustrated_lefty]

23. Thanks for clarifying the issue

Paranoid Pat. :)

[silvershadow]

12. I have been thinking the same thing.

[snot]

16. Changing results are evidence in themselves

It might be worthwhile to document them. I'm not sure what you're looking at, but, maybe always print the pages involved, or take a photo of your computer screen, and keep a log of when you saw them, maybe with "before" and "after" entries.

[snot]

17. More re- changing results

In fact, it's not too late to go back and document all the changes you've seen so far. Esp. interesting if you can correlate the changes to postings here.

Accompanied by an affidavit or testimony, could be admissible evidence.

And if they know we're keeping track, maybe the changes will decline.

[snot]

18. More re- changing results

Hm, pls forgive the multiple replies; but I decided best to explain further.

Most evidence in any legal case is just testimony--he said, she said; and the jury or court decides who seems more credible. If you've got documents or tangible proof, so much the better. But, e.g., if one or more persons say in an affidavit or testimony, I went to such&such site on such&such date, and here's what the numbers were, well, that's perfectly admissible, probative evidence.

(I'm not a trial lawyer but did work as a judicial clerk, so not totally talking through hat.)

[henslee]

21. Seems more imp. to get it out. Be sure and get screenshots, though.

I get what you're saying but we really have no choice. Furthermore, when yo tell one lie, you gotta tell five to cover it up. They could never bury all this stuff.

[MelissaB]

22. Is there a way this could be organized here?

I'm willing to to what I can.

:kick:

[genieroze]

24. I was thinking the same thing