NONE of the bills call for a VVPB! I'm worried about this!

[garybeck]

Folks, I fear we are losing our focus.

The dictionary says a ballot is:

bal·lot
A sheet of paper or a card used to cast or register a vote, especially a secret one.
The act, process, or method of voting, especially in secret.

Does everyone know that NONE of the bills call for a paper ballot! It's only a ballot if it's used to cast the vote! Why are we capitulating and calling them VVPB?

None of the bills say that the paper is used for casting the vote. The paper printout is only a backup. It is NOT A BALLOT!

All the bills provide an easy way for the Diebold and the rest to program their machines to print out a receipt that matches the voter's intent, and send something completely different to the system.

There is NOTHING in place to ensure that the vote cast matches the paper receipt. Holt's bill is the only one that has anything that addresses this - 2% spot checks. Is that enough, to have 98% of our votes still on DREs?

It's only a ballot if it is used to cast the vote!

These paper printouts are nothing but a way to make everyone think their actual vote is being cast while we have no way of knowing what really is happening.

Does everyone realize what those pieces of paper are going to do? Not much. They'll sit in a pile and collect dust, just in case there's a recount. And as every day passes waiting for an unlikely recount, there's more opportunity for the ballots to be tampered with, even if there was a recount.

If we want a democracy, the voter verified paper MUST be used to cast the actual vote in the election! Not sit in a pile somewhere and probably never be touched!

Please do not say that any of these bills have a VVPB. They don't.

We all seem to have agreed that VVPB is a good thing. But let's all realize that these bills do not provide a VVPB.

Any time you hear someone saying that the bills provide a VVPB, call them on it. It is not a ballot!

Gary

[Cocoa]

1. losing focus on BBV is a good thing, imo

I've always thought that BBV was mostly a red herring, that the real problems with our elections lie elsewhere, mostly in things that prevent people from voting.

[garybeck]

2. I don't think so

if you think DREs are a good way to run our elections I think you need to think again.

[RaleighNCDUer]

3. This isn't a fight between vote fraud and electoral fraud.

It is a fight between us and the people who are committing both vote fraud and electoral fraud.

Fixing either without the other is useless.

There are numerous examples of machines tallying differently from the voters' intent.

Thare are equally numerous examples of voters being stripped off the voter rolls, and their provisional ballots discarded.

The other side is cheating before the vote, during the vote and after the vote. We have to confront them at each and every place where their dirty fingers touch our votes.

They want us to be attacking each other over this. It only helps them.

[Cocoa]

4. your claim "fixing either without the other is useless" says it all

that's the problem with BBV, as I see it.

If you get enough people to have total faith in that either-or attitude, you can successfully prevent ANY voting reform from taking place.

[garybeck]

6. if you really want both, why are you calling one a red herring?

if fixing both is necessary, neither are a red herring.

in my opinion, if either is a red herring (which I'm not saying is the case) it's voter suppression. Look at all the focus it got in ohio, while DREs got zip attention.

in order for something to be a red herring, it has to divert attention from the real problem. in the last election, voter suppression diverted attention from DREs, not the other way around.

and remember, exit polls filter out the suppression and they still showed Kerry winning.

and your comment that "losing focus on BBV is a good thing" is very confusing to me.

[garybeck]

5. no doubt, but saying DREs are a red herring is not right

both need to be fixed.

but remember, the exit polls filter out the voter suppression. and they showed Kerry winning. just imagine if both were fixed, it would have been a landslide.

still, this is not the topic of this post. I want to discuss the problem where people think we're getting a VVPB with these bills but we are NOT.

[garybeck]

7. a worried kick

[Wilms]

8. Sorry. But I think the thread title adds to the confusion.

I truly understand the point you are making, and appreciate the concern.

The terminolgy is lacking. It's not easy, but I think a different approach might help clarify rather than not.

[MelissaB]

9. I agree 100%

when you say:

"If we want a democracy, the voter verified paper MUST be used to cast the actual vote in the election! Not sit in a pile somewhere and probably never be touched!"