(Psst! c'mere, I got an Idea. - don't tell.)

[The Doctor.]

I don't know whether or how many times this has been said, but I've been working on getting 'conservatives' to get pissed off about vote fraud.

And the best way to get their attention?

Blame a Democrat!

When you talk to today's generally oblivious Resheeplican, mention how you're REAL PISSED OFF about the vote fraud you heard about in this country.

Pause for a moment, but give their mind no more than a half-second to pull out their, "Oh, that's Wacky conspiracy Theory" line handed to them by the media.

BEFORE they finish applying the thought to their current conversation and begin to convert it to sound say, "I can't BELIEVE the Democrats are gonna get away with this!"

That will activate their far more conditioned responses which routinely override thought. Those which are triggered by anger are the easiest to work with.

Suddenly, they are all ears because you're stoking their pre-programmed world view... that makes you their best ally.

Then begin the tirade about the Washington Gubenatorial results and how, "That vote should never even have been close! Those machines were so easily hacked and Gregoire KNEW all they needed to do was get close enough for a recount! Then all they had to do was count and recount while they 'found' extra votes everywhere... and presto! - She wins!"
(Don't mention whether the machines in Washington weren't electronic.)

Finish with a variation on, "And those Democrats think we're so stupid that we're not going to look at the facts and keep this from ever happening again."


If you know your Resheeplican, he'll be calling his Congressman the next day and demanding that all the voting problems are fixed.

Get em' pissed off enough at Democrats and they'll help fix election problems right along with us... it could be quite a nice grassroots uprising.
And think, the more CNN and the 'Liberal' media try to downplay it, the more pissed off they'll get.

I believe Gregoire is safe for now, I'll have no problem scapegoating Washington and including all the discrepancies of Ohio and Florida in my 'concern over irregularities in WA'.

Bet I can get a few to fight for what's right.

[NV Whino]

1. I like your thinking

Unfortunately I've already pissed off every Resheeplican I known and hey would never believe it.

[The Doctor.]

2. Pretend to convert....

People always LOVE being told they were 'right all along'.

How long do you think you could keep it up?

[NV Whino]

13. I don't think I could get a full sentence out of my mouth

Good strategy. I think I'm so incensed that I couldn't do it. I mean, I was thrown out of a "friend's " house in 2001 over "free speech zones."

[CaliforniaPeggy]

3. Hate to rain on your parade, but...

This could just easily backfire. And then the dragon's out of his cage and couldn't be put back...Just a thought...

[The Doctor.]

5. LOL... how so?

What would be the 'backfire' effect?

[The Doctor.]

12. My apologies, my mirth was at your metaphor....

I have not pictured a way for this to happen.

Since I am, or at least try to be, no fool... I know that this could easily mean I've missed something.

I have actually used a similar approach to garner people's attention to this issue. After all, it's in all of our best interest that we pursue this.

If I need to find a way to refine my approach for specific circumstances, I'd be very much obliged to hear your perspective.

[CaliforniaPeggy]

20. Hi, Dr eldritch,

OK, now you're making me think! My gut feeling is that once this particular cat's out of the bag, (probably a better metaphor than the dragon one) then you have little or no control over where people go with it. It seems to me that when you try to persuade people of the opposite of what you yourself want is when the trouble can start. Now, this is JUST my gut feeling! I could be all wet...
(This will teach me not to have strong, rational arguments for every stand I take on DU)! And BTW, you do not strike me as any sort of fool.
And while I have your attention, to further reveal my internet ignorance, could you please tell me what "n/t" means? Thanks so much!

[The Doctor.]

27. Hi! back.

No, your gut feeling is very accurate.

Once this method is used, it can be abused.
I should like to think that turning someone's hypocrisy against them can do no harm in this case.

As far as strong rational arguments go; I can tell you that, yes, DU is a VERY reality based community. Most of these guys have their facts dead-on, their interpretations are sometimes biased, but their facts are seldom wrong.
Unlike many other sites nowadays.

As for being a fool;
Only a fool like myself would have forgotten to say, "Welcome" in my first response to you.

Welcome to DU!


:hi: :toast: :hi:

[Amaryllis]

32. Makes me nervous. I prefer Chuck Herrin's empathy guide for conservatives:

Empathy Training for Compassionate Conservatives: Why the Democrats Are Still Whining About the Election (and Why Maybe We Should Be, Too)

Chuck Herrin, CISSP, CISA, MCSE, CEH

American, Voter, Republican – In That Order

www.chuckherrin.com

Author's note: **As of right now, 11-23-2004, there is no conclusive evidence that massive voter fraud took place, but there is overwhelming evidence that the weaknesses in our voting system could have allowed it. I hope it didn't happen, but the simple fact is that whether it did or not, our election systems, particularly those using DREs, appear to have been designed specifically to allow fraud, rather than prevent it. Who put these systems in place, and what is the real current state of e-voting? Read on, gentle surfer, and I'll do my best to tell you.**

I was talking to a dear friend of mine yesterday, and he asked me what I had been up to. "This voting machine security thing" I told him. "It looks really bad. I can't believe how insecure these systems are and how easy they would be to Hack."

He chuckled and said to me, very sincerely, "Well, just as long as they go Republican, right? Heh, heh."

There was an awkward moment of silence as I processed that. Now, this is no raving Neo-Conservative that I'm talking to here. I love him, but he probably couldn't pick Karl Rove out of an Evil Genius Lineup with Dr. Evil, Max Scorpio, and that Steve guy from the Linux cartoon (www.ubergeek.tv/switchlinux). I'm visualizing it now - "Suspect number 3, please turn to the right and say 'Mwuahh-haa-haa.....'"

Actually, this is a guy I've known for almost 15 years, a college buddy and fraternity brother who I have leaned against on many drunken and interesting nights, and is one of the very few people in the world I trust explicitly. I took a few seconds to let what he said sink in, and then I warily replied, "Actually, that's kind of the problem. So far, all the vote fraud analysis that's been done indicates that it benefited us 100% of the time."

He replied, "Yeah? Huh. Go figure. Hey, can you make it to the Tampa Bay / Panthers game next weekend? Kevin's coming up from Florida, and we're tailgating!"

I mumbled something about trying to be there and hung up, half-stunned and half-depressed. Now keep in mind, this really is a stand-up guy, who I know was raised in the church and who has been known to speak (at great length) on Moral and Religious topics to whoever would listen, whenever the urge struck him. Coors Light was often involved in bringing about these "sermons" from high atop Mount Barstool, but he still made some good points, which is why his offhand response surprised me so much.

I guess in hindsight, I really shouldn't be that surprised. I have been involved in analysis of our nationwide voting systems for only a relatively short while now, but I have noticed a strong, consistent partisanship entering the discussions wherever the topic is raised. Now, I have always been a Republican and consider myself a reasonably bright person, but what I can't understand is the differences in the answer to what I think is a very simple question:

"If voter fraud is committed on behalf of your party, does the fact that your party benefited from it make it OK?"

More:
http://www.chuckherrin.com/ConservativeEmpathy.htm

[CaliforniaPeggy]

34. ABSOLUTELY NOT!

In fact, I think that if your party does benefit, that makes it all the worse. I mean, the fraud was done with INTENT. Any sort of crime done with intent makes the crime worse. Consider, for example, manslaughter vs. first degree murder. Intent is the difference.

[Amaryllis]

36. Did you read the rest of the article? Herrin is a conservative repub and

is one of the most active people in the country working against e-voting fraud. He is telling his own party that what Bushco is doing is complelely unacceptable.

[CaliforniaPeggy]

39. Oops,

no, I actually didn't read the article. You got me!

[Amaryllis]

42. Best election fraud article I've read, bar none. Great to give repubs and

non-believer dems.

[CaliforniaPeggy]

50. OK Amaryllis,

If you're still here: I went and read Herrin's article as you suggested, and you are so right. This is an excellent article, and everybody in the country should read it. I'm very impressed w/the quality of his research. Hope he gets the publicity he deserves and that we need.

[CaliforniaPeggy]

40. Thanks, Dr eldritch,

for your very kind words plus welcome. You are, as I pointed out before, no fool! It's not always easy to remember all the things that you want to say when you're posting. I do feel very happy to be here, and I'm looking forward to many stimulating discussions of the issues that matter to us all.

[Amaryllis]

31. n/t no text. Nothing in message body, only subject line. Had to ask myself

when I was new!

[CaliforniaPeggy]

35. Thank you so very much!

I felt like such a complete fool for asking; but none of us knew when we were new! And now of course it looks so obvious....

[Amaryllis]

37. I scratched my head over it for a few weeks and when I still hadn't

figured it out, decided to ask. No one made me feel dumb. Most people on
DU won't do that and you can just ignore the ones who do.

[The Doctor.]

43. Actually, I still haven't figured out 'EOM'... n/t

[CaliforniaPeggy]

45. Isn't that "end of message?" n/t (heehee)

[The Doctor.]

49. I guess so... thanks! nt

[NV Whino]

14. Welcome to DU, CaliforniaPeggy

to SoCal from NoCal
:hi:

[CaliforniaPeggy]

21. Hi there, NV Whino,

Thanks for the nice welcome! I'm having a ball!

[chalky]

18. It already backfired once...in a good way

Caught and saved this doozy from another thread:

http://www.counterpunch.com/moses01312005.html

"In live internet broadcasts last week, a Master of Discovery appointed by the Texas Legislature to investigate allegations of a stolen election in West Houston indeed found some 'fact patterns' that looked scandalous, but you can't tell it by reading any press reports. The hearing was supposed to look for evidence of voter fraud committed by Democratic voters. Instead, every time one of these curious patterns emerged, it was a hint of possible fraud not by Democratic voters, but against them."

<snip>

"So when the defeated Republican incumbent in the District 149 race went looking for evidence of 'massive voter fraud' that would explain his embarrassing loss to a Vietnamese immigrant, he snared the names of these 'illegal' voters and brought them to the state capitol accusing them on live broadcast of voting where they did not live. Instead of proving these voters had cast illegal ballots, however, the Republican team of lawyers actually produced evidence of another kind."

[CaliforniaPeggy]

22. Hi, Chalky,

This is a great example of the good outcome that could be possible. But here, the backfiring was the good sort, as you point out. How often does that happen? I think it's difficult to set the wheels in motion to go precisely where we want them to. How do you control it? That needs to be considered, IMHO.

[Amaryllis]

33. Agree. SEe post #32 on Chuck Herrin, and welcome to DU!

[The Doctor.]

29. ....That's.... BEAUtiful!....

:cry:

[bush_is_wacko]

48. THANK! THANK YOU! I have been looking to add this one to my favorites

for a while! Now I have yet another link to send the sheeple who try to "debunk" the "conspiracy theorists" like myself!

It is working for me. Just this week a thug sent me an email about some hoax bill to STOP OUR SOLDIERS FROM BEING ALLOWED TO PRAY! I sent him back the message that it was REPUBLICAN rhetoric and he should check out his "facts!" he hasn't sent me any more rhetoric this week, but he has sent me some rather cutesy NON-POLITICAL emails! I love it when they are speechless! LOL!:evilgrin:

[New Earth]

4. about what fraud?

what kind of fraud was it?:silly: :grr:

[The Doctor.]

6. It doesn't matter... that's the beauty of it!

The chances of your subject listening to you bash democrats and then going off and independently verifying your facts are that of your simultaneous transmogrification into a harp seal at your first dinner with your inlaws and at the exact moment you win 5 state lotteries....

(It ain't gonna happen... these people do no research, otherwise they might realize there's an actual problem to deal with.)

No, you could pretty much make stuff up... so long as you're agreeing with them, telling them they're right, and bashing Clinton... they'll believe anything you say.

[New Earth]

7. doh

i think you missed my point (read the first line of your original post and then read my red sig) :o :evilgrin:

[The Doctor.]

8. I didn't!!!... Crap!

I read your sig MONTHS ago and since then have made a point to say, "election fraud" because I recognized that that was correct.

Doesn't it figure that one of the few times I slip - you're lurking.

he he

:shrug:

Although... I have to give myself the benefit of the doubt as when I wrote that I was trying to emulate a digruntled 'conservative'.

[New Earth]

9. heheh

i'm always lurking :D


even in my sleep :o

oh, you still have 11 minutes to change it :silly:

[The Doctor.]

10. Nah... think I'll keep it....

I believe it's important to use as few syllables per word as possible when trying to invoke anger in such a subject.

Like George Carlin said of 'the softening of words' - "Shell Shock" for "Post-Traumatic Stress Disorder".

A word for this purpose is more poignant with fewer syllables.

[Fly by night]

17. election theft

[Amaryllis]

38. computer generated election coup, but that only works on people with a

certain level of intelligence. Election theft is better for the average person.

[BeFree]

11. Good idea, one catch...

"(Don't mention whether the machines in Washington weren't electronic.)"

Please to clarify, eh? Thanks.....


Here's some news: A republican admitted to me today that they pillaged and plundered the elections. I finally got one to admit it! We are making progress.

[The Doctor.]

15. What's to clarify?

There is no mention 'whether or not'.

Keep it simple and villifying. If you introduce too many 'supporting arguments' they'll start to smell 'facts' and get scared off.

And frankly, I never looked into 'whether or not' or 'how many' E-voting machines were in Washington.

(I'm guessing not enough to have given it to Rossi... or the 'right' wouldn't be talking about it.)

[bleever]

16. The doctor is waaaay in. Nice thinking; very nice. All we really

need is for everyone to keep talking about it.

Nice way to engage those we can't appeal to otherwise.

:)

[buzzard]

19. I have a feeling it will fall on deaf ears. n/t

[Pooka Fey]

23. Conniving. Devious. Manipulative. I LOVE IT. n/t

[kster]

24. My bro-in-law

does not think the fraud happened on the scale I tell him about ,but agree's with me that there should be an investigation to prove if I or we are right or wrong. He has never disagreed with the investigation part of the debate. This from a die-hard Republican, Catholic and never want to be wrong type of guy. Fully supports an investigation.

[Zeebo]

25. I like this approach! n/t

[SharonRB]

26. Election fraud, not vote fraud!!!!

Okay, Faye?

:hi:

[New Earth]

28. hehehe

i already told him. he declined :(

but fine. go ahead and spread the Rove term if you wish.

[Amaryllis]

30. Faye is smiling:)

[Senator]

41. No need to whisper about it...

...because their responses are Pavlovian. They can't defend against such a manipulation.

But I'd compound the effect by getting them to promote capital punishment for election manipulation.

(Relax liberals, the sentence can/will be commuted.)

And while I'm on the subject, this is not a joke. We need to be demanding the ultimate punishment for election theft. It's the best way to project how serious it is. Far worse than cop-killing, or any single terrorist attack, it attacks the core of our nation.

Also, as a deterrent tactic of enforcement, it targets the real human problem; the legions of autonomously-acting neofascists who "honestly" believe that God, or Karl Rove, or Milton Friedman have suffused them with the right to control the majority of their fellow Americans.

-------

[The Doctor.]

44. "High Crimes and Treason" n/t

[bush_is_wacko]

46. No need to do this! I have SEEN a Resheeplican start thinking for himself

on this issue. Debunk their rhetoric and send them some links to Chuck Herrin and others that are speaking out. I haven't looked for the story yet but there is also the recent removal of the head of the Ethics Committee Colorado Republican Joel Hefley. Hefley supporters LOVE the guy. And the reason he was removed from that committee is CLEAR. He wanted to maintain bi-partisan cooperation on the ETHICS committee and he was fighting to keep the thugs from changing the rules. He made a statement to the effect that an ETHICS committee was no place for partisan politics. Several Democrats are defending him. THAT story should get a few sheep's dander up!

If that doesn't do it try putting a few Deception dollars under your windshield wipers when you go shopping. I have been doing this and WITHOUT EXCEPTION they are gone EVERY time I get back. I live in RED country and my car is still in tact and I have had no nasty notes left on my car! People are getting the message and EVEN MSM is starting to report bits and pieces that will wake the sheeple up further! The message is getting out and the MSM wants to come along for the ride. They are just testing the waters to see how deep they can go without getting bitten!

I WILL NOT SELL OUT MY BELIEFS IN ORDER TO MAKE A SHEEPLE FEEL COMFORTABLE!

http://www.chuckherrin.com/sinceyouasked.htm
http://www.chuckherrin.com/evotingquestions.htm
http://www.chuckherrin.com/hackthevoteFAQ.htm
http://www.chuckherrin.com/E-voting.htm
http://www.chuckherrin.com/E-voting.htm

[New Earth]

47. it's a really BAD idea

sorry.

[Shredr]

51. LOL! Good thinking.

And I love your avatar. What is that?