Out of Box: Your pet theory.

[Hugin]

As, I've scanned through this forum. I've noticed a large
variety of theories of what happened on or about Nov. 2, 2004.

Also, since I'd hate to overlook something. I'd like to see
a collection of the breadth of theories out there.

In this thread no idea is wacky, unsupportable, or plain
wrong. It's about feelings. What do you feel happened in
the election. Please, if you do have some indicator or
evidence for your pet theory post it.

Remember, it's the nail, which cost the shoe, which lost
the horse, which dropped the knight, which dethroned the
king.

Please, keep the flaming to a minimum. If you don't agree
with what someone says. Instead of dumping acid post what
you think.

I'm going for details here... details!

[orpupilofnature57]

1. progressive agenda ,meaning worried more about doing business

Than the business at hand.Pliability instead of culpability.

[Hugin]

3. Good thought.

I'm of the impression that it had something to do with it.

There's a fine line between compromise and enabling. =)

[LiberalEsto]

2. Massive election fraud

using many different methods to avoid creating a detectable pattern.

And an ineffective, inadequate public relations job by the Kerry campaign (Bob Shrum is 0-8 in advising presidential candidates).

Finally, I think Kerry is too darned wordy, and needed to reframe GOP issues in ways the American public can hear.

[Hugin]

5. Yep...

There's no doubt it was a multifaceted attack and failure.

Thanks LiberalEsto. =)

[ottozen]

66. Hacked from a central location/ Fail Safe Option

Can someone disprove that it would be possible for one person at one location to gain enough access to the vote tabulators to transform the vote nationwide once the perps realized that things were not going to go their way despite the massive disenfranchisement and dirty tricks.

I asked Wayne Madsen this question a while back and referenced one Michael Riconosciuto, whom the government has in their custody with no likely date of release. He cryptically said that Rove had another similar person that he was likely to put out there as a red herring. I have not heard of such another person, and have been following pretty closely. We also have not heard anything from Madsen since I asked him this question.

Perhaps all the disenfranchisement is the red herring, when the reality is, that at least for this one election, a desperate hacker and computer programmer who is by all accounts an unparalleled genius, in a misguided attempt to achieve his freedom, bought an empty promise from Rove or some other similarly situated operative.

I had noticed that Riconosciuto, for some reason was transferred to a mental hospital in Kansas of late.

The Fail Safe Option????

[Time for change]

94. Massive election fraud period

Why the need to stipulate other factors, when without the massive election fraud Kerry would have won by about 4%? Kerry beat the crap out of Bush in three successive debates -- so badly that even the Repukes had to admit it publicly. What more can you ask of a candidate that that?

[Hugin]

100. Four... They whipped them in four debates.

Remember Edwards?

But, it's true it was a closeout.

[Time for change]

108. Right, it was four

I didn't forget that, I was just responding to the criticism of Kerry.

It's always easy to look back retrospectively and come up with reasons for saying that someone wasn't perfect. I just think that it's very important to realize that, whatever criticism one wants to make of Kerry's performance during the campaign, he did well enough to win by a comfortable margin.

[cdb]

4. My Theory

Is the American people elected the leader they deserve. Nothing sinister, WalMart, McDonalds and TV have taken their toll.

"As democracy is perfected, the office of president represents, more and more closely, the inner soul of the people. On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron."

- H. L. Mencken (1880 - 1956)

[Hugin]

6. Ouch...

Yep, the truth hurts. =)

[Darknyte7]

16. Wow...

Hadn't seen that quote before. That's deep...

[Eloriel]

105. And on getting the govt we deserve: a downright moron

and a real sickie to boot. This is a superb article on our national psychoses (MUST READING):

THE MADNESS OF GEORGE W. BUSH: A REFLECTION OF OUR COLLECTIVE PSYCHOSIS by Paul Levy
http://www.awakeninthedream.com/georgew.html

[Viva_La_Revolution]

117. Thanks Eloriel. Looks very interesting! nt

[mod mom]

7. EVIL rovian cabal waved the almighty $ (earned from war mongering..

ie the blood of hundreds of thousands of innocent people) to:
1. corporate America (bottom line over integrity)
2. paid off msm
3. flooded christian churches with faith based initiative money
4. created a well oiled lie and misinformation machine-paid pundits
5. instilled fear in the masses, threats of retribution caused people not to speak out
6. hired rethug backed proprietary voting machines and software.

etc, etc. etc.

[Hugin]

9. Wow...

Your pet theory and mine are very similar.

Thanks mod mom. =)

[Skink]

10. They electronically manipulated...

The N.H. Primary thus givng Kerry a victory over Dean and all the momentum he needed.

[Hugin]

12. Hmm...

Generated false momentum... Interesting theory Skink.

Thanks. =)

[starmaker]

76. makes you wonder about s.c.

bush over mccain in 2000
all early primary states should be suspect

[Hugin]

78. True...

We used paper ballots in our primary here.

[Chelsea Patriot]

39. So, Is it true that BBV was used in the NH Dem. Primary?

Did Kerry defeat Dean in the NH Primary using paper-less, non-auditable voting machines?

I seem to recall Kerry making this unexpected comeback in NH.

I seem to also recall a wave of nausea when I learned that non-auditable machines had given Kerry this amazing comeback win.

Kerry made as good use of BBV as Bush did.

[Hugin]

57. New Hampshire...

... has a history of "startling comebacks."

But, I don't know how the primary was handled there.

Good question. Anyone know?

Thanks for bringing it up Chelsea Patriot.

[Chelsea Patriot]

95. Kerry can't speak out about BBV, because he won the NH primary on BBV.

I read this theory once on DU.

It was imperative that Kerry be the 2004 Dem. nominee.

The nausea I got upon learning that BBV had been used in Kerry's upset NH win was akin to what Mia Farrow in "Rosemary's Baby" experiences in Charles Grodin's doctor office.

"They're all in on it!"

[Hugin]

102. "They're all in on it!"

To one degree or another...

Thanks for your thoughts and opinions Chelsea Patriot. =)

[roseBudd]

119. I don't think BBV had anything to do with Kerry's NH win , I think dems

picked someone that might have a chance with security moms. Dean's all peace platform wouldn't assuage fears and they knew it.

[cdb]

22. That isn't a theory,

that's a given. The basis of standard operating procedure.

[Hugin]

26. and it's beginning to emerge...

As reports of bought off "journalists" continue to come to light.

=)

[Quakerfriend]

49. You forgot

#7) Used Homeland Security to falsify threats.

[Hugin]

53. Yup... That happened.

Not only that it was done by someone impersonating a
Federal Agent.

Isn't that in itself a threat to National Security?

Thanks for pointing out the omission Quakerfriend. =)

[mod mom]

55. Is that that department that issues le colour de jour? They have another

role? I thought they just were responsible for choosing color trends.

[Hugin]

58. Today's color is Orange... mod mom. ;) n/t

I hear ya.

[mod mom]

67. too late to edit "cabal" but would like to re-word with gang, mob, ? help

me choose a synonym that is less offensive.

[Hugin]

77. Are you worried about offending Rove?

I can think of much *worse* words than cabal.

Try cronies. It always works for my brother.

Associates is a good word too.

[mod mom]

96. Surely you jest! REGIME is a good replacement. My brother in enlighten-

ment, Understanding Life, suggested it in another post. Someone suggested "cabal" has anti-semitic roots. I certainly don't want to offend my Jewish friends. As for rove, let's say my position as mom limits my verbal insults. I only wish I believed in hell, cuz that guy would burn a slow agonizing death! Read me loud and clear: ROVE=EVIL.

[Hugin]

103. I didn't know that about "cabal"...

Yes, I will find a substitute if it has Anti-Semitic roots.

The worst fate for one like Rove is to be marginalized...
Made irrelevant.

Watch what they do to find their greatest weakness.

Oh, and BTW...

http://www.hyperdictionary.com is an excellent reference.

[zalinda]

8. It was the media

We have to remember that we are the exception, and not the rule when it comes to finding out the truth. Seventy percent of Bush supporters still believe there is a connection between Saddam and 9/11. Would the Swift Boat ads have had the legs it had if the newscasters had said that they were false, of course not. And then don't forget the RW radio/tv talking heads, who had their talking points all together.

Most people get their "news" from tv, at 6 or 11 (or 5 and 10 depending on time zone). They don't have the time to surf the net, or read a number of newspapers. And some don't even watch the news, they overhear what others at work are saying.

If the "news" had reported the truth, Kerry would have won in a landslide. The election could not have been hacked, as it would have been too obvious.

LW radio is a place to start. But, grass roots local elections are also key. If all LW parties would stick together, these RW zealots can be stopped.

zalinda

[Hugin]

11. Cool zalinda...

There was a huge media impact... no doubt.

One of the places I went wrong was in my quest to unbias
the bias. I feel I missed the bigger picture. I was too
focused on finding the truth from the false. I wrongly
assumed everyone knew what I knew.

Thanks zalinda. =)

[Botany]

13. It was a multivariable and multilevel scam.

From Nathan Sproul, having people who looked like ACT (America Coming Together)
collecting registrations and purging the democratic ones in Nevada, Arizona, and Oregon to machines that were programed to null out Kerry votes (In Indiana if you
voted a straight party ticket your vote for President went to a third party candidate. Their was also criminal work or voter lists ....... In Toledo, Ohio the democratic HQs
was broken into and a computer that had voter lists in was stolen. Since then the
Toledo Blade (Toledo's paper) published a story that a couple that that had lived in the same house for 44 years (as a newly weds that had voted for John Kennedy) went
to vote and were told that their names were no longer on the voter rolls. A compliant media has also helped in this theft of democracy by not reporting the myriad of electoral problems too.

But the bottom line that causative agents went to work on the Presidential election
with the purpose of keeping bush as President through criminal actions.

[indianaleft]

14. Lingering question about exit polls

I've read a lot, but not encyclopedically, about exit polls and 2004. Is it possible that the pollsters, not anticipating the Bush surge in the "exurbs," simply undersampled precincts in those areas, thus missing the 4 million new Bush voters?

If that's not true, then I believe the theft theory. But to believe that is to believe that democracy in America is essentially dead, and that's a hard thing to wake up to.

[Hugin]

17. Only true if you believe the pollsters were unbiased...

"Is it possible that the pollsters, not anticipating the Bush surge in the "exurbs," simply under sampled precincts in those areas, thus missing the 4 million new Bush voters?"

Since they won't release their raw uncorrected data... We'll
never know.

But, in a strange way... It would be reassuring to find that's
what happened.

For the sake of democracy.

Thanks for your input indianaleft. =)

[southwood]

72. The Edison/Mitofsky evaluation report ...

... validates their choice of precincts. So there is no exurbia effect. The "error" is exclusively "within precinct". And, for the first time in five elections, the "within precinct error" (WPE) is seriously skewed toward one candidate...

[Hugin]

79. Which candidate was it skewed toward?

This is interesting.

Thanks southwood.

[southwood]

83. Guess only once... nt.

[MissWaverly]

80. exurbia thing is another myth

I noticed that when I looked at Baltimore County results, Republican voters were not showing up to vote as high as the registered Democrats. You may want to actually go and look at your local results. When I actually looked at the real numbers; I can't believe how bogus they look. My pet theory is we have 9 billion that went missing in Iraq and tons of glitches, technicians coming out constantly to access the machines, local fudging of registration roles, computer malfunctions ACROSS the county, deliberate destruction of voting registation cards; I think when this thing starts to break; it will break big. I wonder if that money is traceable? I also thing that it's a joke that the Republicans are so angry over felons voting when they are the ones that hired addicts to do voter registrations.

[Hugin]

85. Terrific...

Linking in the 9 Billion. Now, why didn't I think of that.

Thanks for your thoughts MissWaverly.

[Hugin]

15. Yeppers...

The election was gamed... What you're saying is that instead of
"getting out their base" as is widely reported. The loop holes
were worked. An edge at any cost.

Thanks Botany. =)

[Botany]

18. Thank you!

I had to stop ..... the list was just too long.
Although Wyoming's 106% turn out of registered voters will always be fresh.
Oklahoma had machines that counted backward for Kerry.
Iowa had 30% of the total vote in by 11/2/04 and Kerry had 12% lead .....
so better than 3 out of 4 of the last 70% of voters had to have voted for bush.
Colorado elected a liberal hispanic senator but 100,000 of those same voters
voted for bush too??????
In Perry County, Ohio 3 precincts had greater than 100% turn out.

Sadly, the media will report all about the Michael Jackson trial and skip these hard facts.

Stephanie :loveya: Miller

[Hugin]

19. It's a shame too...

When I view the news... I'd like to hear something
which relates to me directly. Quite frankly, Michael
Jackson and I have very little in common.

I am interested in who's running the country and how
they got there.

Thank you Botany. =)

[Botany]

25. No I am Steph's # 1 stalker

Funny Show ..... too bad she is being freeped.

http://www.stephaniemiller.com/

:bounce:

[Hugin]

27. LOL...

I'm sorry, I realized that after I had posted.

Will fix.

[Senator]

20. What they learned from Treason 2000

Quite simply, not to get caught again. This is hard for rational people to really understand, but they actually believe that not getting caught is the same thing as not doing wrong. This is literally true for them. They need it to be.

What they learned from last time is that simply spoiling ballots won't get the job done. That can be detected and remedied. (As it certainly would have in 2000, had Luntz's focus groups not told them that defecating on the formerly-supreme court could finish the coup, while the FL-Leg "final solution" was a non-starter.)

This time they needed a more comprehensive plan of attack. Their plan was to reduce the number of Dems who were able to vote: long lines, faulty machines, late absentee ballot delivery, dumping college registrations, too few provisional ballots, etc.. But in ways that defy quantification. (Which is why we must always talks about "voters," not votes/ballots. If a citizen does his part; show up at the poll or fill out the reg. form, they are a "voter" at that point.)

What they added this time was also a false "turnout" on their own side. This involved pumping an extra 10-15K "votes" in counties where they could get away with it. Could be blackboxes or simply "typos" on the reported totals (which we've seen). The big part of the scam was to file large numbers of false registrations. Which is why we're seeing discrepencies between vote-counts and signature books in the few places that access has been granted.

Recall they spent weeks calling false regs a "crime" by Dems. Why would they think it such a bad crime? It's not as if Dick Tracy or Mickey Mouse was going to show up to vote (some schemer just got a couple of extra bucks out of ACT). They considered this a crime because they were doing it with criminal intent. So their false turnout would not be detected.

Recall also that more than a year before the election we saw reports about ACT and others on the left running massive registration drives. We saw none of that on the right, simply Rove's claim that 4-5 million more fundamentalists were coming and some reports weeks before that the Reps were "keeping pace." Just rhetoric.

This method of fraud is nearly undetectable, as registration lists must be released and must be audited by contacting real people, and not just assuming that Rep claims of "culture voters" or "gay marriage voters" or "the success of our Reg/GOTV" are factually accurate (as the DC/Media Analstocracy has been trained to do).

This method of registering and voting non-persons is something they are very experienced at, particularly in FL. Just look at the tallies from Rep dominated counties. Randi Rhodes has read long lists of "turnouts" over 100% on the air. Their "results" defy common sense yet they only need the story to "hold" until the national attention span lapses. (Insert your own "size" joke here.)

-----------
www.thedeanpeople.org

[Hugin]

23. When I hear this...

"Recall they spent weeks calling false regs a "crime" by Dems. Why would they think it such a bad crime? It's not as if Dick Tracy or Mickey Mouse was going to show up to vote (some schemer just got a couple of extra bucks out of ACT). They considered this a crime because they were doing it with criminal intent. So their false turnout would not be detected."

It seems to be a common M.O. by the Rovians to accuse the other
side of what they are most guilty.

Do you think it's actually a method of instruction? A means of
communicating in the negative. "Do what I'm telling them not to
do?"

Very good synopsis, Senator. You've obviously been paying
attention. =)

[dandrhesse]

36. along those same lines

it was necessary to win the popular vote by a wide enough margin to make sure that it could not be questioned for a recount. About the registration efforts and canvassing. I can only speak for myself, but my husband and I phoned and canvassed for Kerry and we only once saw a GOP canvasser and they were out a couple days before the election and they looked confused as if they were out for the first time. The only sign I saw of the GOP was the absentee ballot request form that was sent to virtually every resident in the state. That alone makes me suspicious of how those were all handled. I know we busted our butts and the turnout in our ward did not reflect that fact. I have not looked into it for one of the facts listed, fear of retribution. Not for my but for my kids. In a small town you don't rock the boat if you don't want your kids to suffer for it. The thing that makes me really mad is that I feel that was well thought out and known ahead of time and they pick chose who to target.

[Hugin]

50. Very interesting...

I had an absentee ballot with some Anti-Kerry junk stuffed in
my screen door.

I've had inklings about it too.

Thanks dandrhesse. =)

[SnowGoose]

21. A part (though not fraud)

was this push to get bullshit anti-gay proposals on so many ballots, and then whip up the "gay marriage" boogyman in the media.

It made a huge difference.

[Hugin]

24. I agree...

I will point out again. This thread is not necessarily a
fraud thread. It's for people to state why they think things
turned out as they have.

Thanks for recognizing that... And thanks for expressing it.

=)

[NationalEnquirer]

30. This was the main strawman they used this time! GAYS!

Bush had NO INTEREST whatsoever with this gay crap.
He wont even push the DOMA right now, to the dismay of the cultural conservatives.
Oh gee, WHAT A SURPRISE.. not..
Pure politics, and very shrewed.
A Rovian Moment.

[Hugin]

28. So far I don't see any...

<sarcasm>
of the so-called "delusional thinking" or "x-files kookery"
so widely claimed in the CRM.

Come on people... We can do better!

</sarcasm>

Thanks. =)

[NationalEnquirer]

29. Either A, nothing, or B, a slight, ever so subtle manipulation

of votes, so insidious, that it could not be readily detected.
Electronic probably, maybe other methods in other precincts.

[kster]

31. Kerry had two

goals and he did it perfect, 1) was to get out the vote in a big way,so that he could hopefully beat the BBV machine. 2)
If he couldn't beat the machine, the massive turn out would expose the corruption, Now its up to the troops(us) to get into the battle and expose the truth and eventually win. Kerry could not have fought this battle by himself and he was smart enough to know that.

[dandrhesse]

37. yes, yes yes!

Thanks, that is exactly what I felt as well. I thought when he conceded and said "you don't know how much I wish it were different" I felt like he was talking about more than the election. I thought he was referring to how sad it made him feel that the other side would actually put their own craven agenda ahead of the will of the people and he also knew already at that point what a long haul this would be.

[Hugin]

48. There was a feeling like that...

Wasn't there?

=)

[indianaleft]

32. GEMS tabulator pet theory

Without question there was manipulation, dirty trickery, programming of voting machines where locally possible, denial of voting rights, etc., etc. But I think the vast bulk of the stealing was due not to the above but to something in the tabulation software which pushed Kerry votes into the Bush column pretty much all over the country, or at least in the 80% using it. It's just Windows software, has beenshown to be easily hackable, and if it was hacked, could have been by just one person reporting directly to Rove, thus obviating the need for thousands of conspirators to keep silent.

That's the one, IMHO, but how will we ever find it? TruthIsAll has done a great job of showing the prima facie case for some kind of national hackery, but without the code, or the provable turning of someone who knew about it, it might never come out.

Bring back Deep Throat (the source, not the movie).

[Hugin]

33. This is part of my personal pet...

...theory too.

The aspect of the electronic vote which interests me
is the fact so many batteries went dead so soon after
the election. On new machines, too.

My motherboard batteries have lasted on average 5 or 6
years. Theirs lasted days or weeks? I use my computers
much more than the average voting machine gets used over
time.

Did they load the cheat code into RAM? Stall the recount
until the software used in the real election was lost?
Then load up certified software for the recounts...

The world will never know.

Thanks for the input indianaleft. =)

[FogerRox]

34. In addition to NH--Iowa primary is where

Kerry & Edwards came out 1 & 2---w/Dean a distant 3rd.

[passy]

63. Tie that in with remote access using GSM.

something like this http://www.digi.com/products/remotewirelesscellular/digiconnectwangsm.jsp put in a machine or even wired into the machine will allow complete wireless remote access from anywhere even the white house office of Rove.

[Hugin]

35. One more time to the top...

I'd like to see more.

=)

[spooked911]

38. I'm not convinced there was systemic vote counting fraud, but I'm not

convinced there wasn't vote counting fraud either. It hasn't been proved either way.

I wouldn't be at all surprised if many vote-counting machines were rigged to swich a small percent of votes from Kerry to Bush These might not even be detectable except by the most rigorous hand-count, but of course we can't even recount most of the votes.

There were many factors that led to Kerry's "loss", the media couldn't stand him, his overall campaign could have been stronger and harder, and importantly people were simply freaked out by 9/11.

There were also lots of dirty tricks with vote registrations and not getting enough voting machines out to key precincts.

But all this could never ENSURE Bush's win, so I strongly suspect they made sure he would win with some sort of vote counting scam.

The bottom line is that no one has ruled out such a fraud, and there is every reason to suspect this crew would everything to win.

[Hugin]

46. "there is every reason to suspect this crew would do everything to win."

Something about the ends justify the means in their minds... You suppose?

Thanks Spooked.

[Bill Bored]

40. Thanks for asking.

I think we can divide it into 2 basic categories:
Pre-voting and post-voting.

Pre-voting:

1. Registration Fraud. Democratic registrations were systematically lost, spindled, mutilated or destroyed, reducing the number of new Dem voters.

2. Disinformation. Democratic voters were told to vote at the wrong precincts, on the wrong day, etc. They were told that their provisional ballots would be counted when they would not be. In Ohio, court rulings were made at the last minute so that even election workers didn't know the facts, or deliberately misled voters about where to cast their provisional ballots.

3. Unequal allocation of voting machines -- fewer machines in Dem precincts.

4. At the same time, the Repukes had their own get out the vote efforts, which unlike ours, were successful because they weren't impaired by the above pre-voting tactics. All their registrations were accepted, they had enough voting machines, etc.

The effect of the pre-voting strategy was to increase the relative or absolute turnout of Republicans and suppress Democratic turnout. This is reflected in the final versions of Mitofsky's exit polls, if you believe them, in which the turnout of Dems and Repubs was equal at 37% each nationwide. If you believe that there was pre-vote suppression, which we know to be true, you also have to believe that turnout was affected in a measurable way in the exit polls. Yet we hear almost nothing about this in most exit poll analyzes.

We can't claim massive voter suppression and still say we had a 38/35 Dem/Rep turnout ratio! I think we should have a more consistent position on this.

Post-voting:

This is where the machines and the counting come in.

1. Touchscreens set to default to Bush. I think it's imperative that we find out if this is a "bug" or a "feature" of the programs, who set them up that way, etc. I don't have a good feeling about this at all. Why would ANY honest BOE accept such a configuration that favors one candidate over another, forcing the voter de-select the default candidate in order to vote for another? If they did, you might even say that voting machines don't kill votes -- people do!

2. Same as above for what would otherwise be DRE undervotes defaulting to Bush.

3. Swapping of ballot order in Ohio, causing Kerry votes to switch to Bush when read by incorrectly configured card readers, or even by mixing the ballots randomly in Kerry-heavy precincts.

4. Rigged Ohio recount. This, and any other non-DRE counting fraud, would have been detected if the Ohio recount had been performed according to state law, which says that a 3% sample has to be selected at random and hand counted. Unfortunately laws were broken by BOEs and Blackwell during the recount process, and there should be prosecutions.

5. The usual ~2% national ballot spoilage rate.

Taken together, I think the above is enough to have swung the election.

The pre-vote stuff could account for the unusual turnout numbers (Dems 37/Repubs 37) in the exit polls, which when taken into account, show Bush and Kerry in a statistical dead heat in the popular vote. The post-voting factors then gave Bush the win. The recount scam in Ohio makes this undetectable, so far, as does the DREs "default" behavior, unless it can be documented.

Areas for further investigation:

1. Determine the cause of the "default to Bush" behavior of the DREs. Who configured the machines -- BOE staff or vendor techs? Are these options user-configurable, or were they bugs or hacks? Simulate an election with the machine setup this way and measure the effect on the error rate. Prove that the default candidate gets a certain percentage of unintentional votes.

2. Recount Ohio! Or at least a few key counties such as Butler, Clermont and Warren in their entirety by hand.

3. Continue to calculate and recalculate ad infinitum, the odds that the exit polls could disagree with the vote totals -- just for the fun of it, or as an academic exercise. But if you really want to prove something, find out the CORRECT Dem/Rep turnout numbers from poll records or another independent source, gage the effect of voter suppression on these numbers to see if the polls were right or wrong.

I hope this helps separate some of the wheat from the chaff. It's only my humble opinion of course!

[Hugin]

44. Excellent!

Now, that's what I'm talking about!

Thanks for the comprehensive systemic breakdown Bill Board! =)

[qwghlmian]

56. "Recount Ohio" -

as I keep pointing out, this can be done today and by anyone:

see http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=203x308661

[southwood]

81. Great! Fully agree.

May I add two aspects?

There appears to have been a systematic effort in challenging the registrations of likely democratic voters before the election. As I seem to recall, the Conyers-report mentions 35000 challenges in Ohio alone. A recent article from le Nouvel Observateur posted on DU describes how the GOP developed a nationwide database of registered voters, including all their characteristics (credit card ratings etc.)They distinguished 30 types of voters.
This allowed them to communicate to their own "base", but obviously also enabled them to target democratic voters. Greg Palast has also talked about this.

Second, a "recount" of certain Ohio counties would be great (e.g. the 3 SW ones, where Phillips suspects 27000 votes were irregular), but has to include a systematic investigation of voter rolls, compared to # of actual votes, an investigation of absentee ballots (by polling or interviewing a substantive number of supposed absentee voters), same thing for provisional voters etc.) A simple "recount" will most likely turn up nothing. The basic question is, do the ballots counted correspond to real people and their votes cast, and did real people get to cast their vote and be counted.

[Hugin]

84. Add away southwood...

"the Conyers-report mentions 35000 challenges in Ohio alone."
I read this also... Where are these people? Why don't they
speak up?

"A recent article from le Nouvel Observateur posted on DU describes how the GOP developed a nationwide database of registered voters, including all their characteristics (credit card ratings etc.)They distinguished 30 types of voters.
This allowed them to communicate to their own "base", but obviously also enabled them to target democratic voters."
Daa-yum! I hadn't heard a peep about this. Are you able to find
the link to it?

"a "recount" of certain Ohio counties would be great"
I think we need to add another term here... Since "recount"
is losing it's meaning diluted by the RWers. What you're
asking for is a "researched recount." Meaning, not only do
the numbers of votes match, but, can the total number cast be
linked to real people who really voted.

Go for it!

Thanks those additions are great.

[southwood]

86. Someone with access to demopedia...

could find the (very short) thread on the Nouvel Observateur article. It was translated into English by someone at truthout.org

[Hugin]

87. Thanks for the tip...

I'll bet I can find it with a web search too.

I'd really like to read it. =)

[southwood]

88. But of course... (add French accent)

http://www.truthout.org/docs_05/012405H.shtml

[Hugin]

90. ;) n/t

[southwood]

91. Variation on the theme of challenging...

.. "moving" democratic voters elsewhere, as just posted on DU.

http://www.counterpunch.com/moses01312005.html

On a personal note, it is sad that a Republican inadvertently found this, instead of "our people" doing the research.

[Bill Bored]

93. I agree.

Andy Stephenson has been to some of them. I don't know exactly what he uncovered but it wasn't pretty!

The recount itself may turn up more than you think though. Cuyahoga is another place to recount. If you can recount some very Bush-heavy and Kerry-heavy precincts within Bush-heavy and Kerry-heavy counties, you'll have a chance of finding stuff that may be hidden there in the noise.

[Bill Bored]

41. I thought this was just an election fraud thread

but if you want some other stuff:

1. Kerry made some campaign mistakes, particularly not holding Shrub accountable for 9/11.

2. The media is rigged in favor of Bush and people were uninformed. This is why the election was even CLOSE to begin with. Without that, it might not have been so stealable.

Imagine the pre-election polls of say 70/30 favoring Kerry. Very hard to credibly steal an election under those circumstances. But the Bush propagandists saw to it that it was a close election.

Add this to the pre-voting category in my last post.

[Hugin]

45. Good additions...

Thanks for bringing this up Bill Bored..

"But the Bush propagandists saw to it that it was a close election."

I'm not so sure it was as close as it was portrayed. It may have
been part of the pre-vote softening up of the masses to accept
the manipulated results.

Great! =)

[Bill Bored]

64. Well, then you have to disbelieve LOTS of polls.

It was pretty close leading up to the election, especially the Electoral Vote count, which changed almost daily and varied wildly.

Those of us who see through Shrub can't imagine why anything close to half the electorate would vote for the guy. It shouldn't have even been close, but all the polls said otherwise, right up to Nov 2.

[Hugin]

73. All of the CRM polls anyway.

In one of my other posts here I said I may have misled myself
with my discounting of some of the MSM polls.

Then there *was* the tampering with one of the after debate
"Insta-polls" and there was that guy ejected from MSNBC as
an impartial pollster. So, the misinformation was widespread.

Keep thinking and posting Bill Board... and thanks. =)

[abbiehoff]

42. I think there was considerable fraud

on a variety of fronts: DRE machines defaulting to *, tabulating machines hacked or mis-programmed, disinformation to potential voters (e.g. letters telling them their precinct had moved or changed, radio announcements and leaflets saying that voting would be extended an extra day), uneven distribution of voting machines between Dem and Repug areas, etc.

Given all of the cheating, I think we could have won anyway with any kind of break from the TV pundits or reasonable coverage of issues. All anyone heard was the government line about anything. The media made a HUGE deal of the SwiftBoat liars. Not just the cable news, but broadcast news as well kept re-showing the ads (as news) and running the story for ever. The talking heads repeated ad nauseum that Kerry was a weak candidate with no message. The only message that was clear was that we should be very afraid, and only the current administration could keep us safe. There was absolutely no evidence of this, but I think ultiimately the fear factor, and the anti-gay referenda in various states, kept the election close enough that their cheating was sufficient to win.

There is a long tradition of cheating in the U.S.; I'm sure never to the extent perpetrated in November. Unfortunately, it seems that whoever cheats best wins and I'm not sure most people care. They expect cheating and don't believe it makes a difference.

[Hugin]

47. Yes!

And to quote somebody, somewhere...

"If it worked, expect to see lots more of it!"

Thanks abbiehoff. =)

[The Time is Now]

43. In the days immediately before the election

I told anyone who would listen, "The Republicans have given up on actually winning the election by legitimate means. They know that the numbers have them beat. They're now going to switch tactics and use whatever election fraud techniques they have at their disposal." I was thinking in particular of the various tabulation hacking techniques that had been described in internet sources, like DU, where I lurked in amazement. I felt that Rove and Co. realized that outright fraud would be required despite the effectiveness of the nasty stuff they had already pulled, i.e., the lies, the intimidation, the reduction of minority polling places. Those would work, but not by enough. They still needed to put a dirty little finger on the scales.

On the night of the election, seeing the "raw" exit poll numbers confirmed the first part of my speculation (they lost), and seeing the unprecedented lurch redward confirmed the other (they refused to lose - on with the coup).

I have found TIA's work to be entirely convincing about the irreconcilables between the exit polls and the tallies. I have also an inner sense that any group that could do Abu Ghraib and the WMD scam isn't above a little election fraud. What hackle might Rove have that would prevent this from occurring? Guilty until proven innocent? Okay, well, under suspicion, certainly.

Until I'm given strong evidence otherwise, I will continue to believe that a fair election would have produced a Kerry landslide.

[Hugin]

51. "I will continue to believe that a fair election...

... would have produced a Kerry landslide."

I agree.

Thanks for speaking up.

Welcome to DU! =)

[Zan_of_Texas]

70. Kerry won by 5.4 million votes.

This according to this analysis:

The final expected total comes out to 62.2 million votes for Kerry, and 56.8 million expected votes for Bush.

About 2/3 of the way down in the article

Michael Keefer:
"The Strange Death of American Democracy: Endgame in Ohio,"
Global Research
January 24, 2005
http://globalresearch.ca/articles/KEE501A.html

~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Another analysis showed that a flip of about 14 votes in HALF the precincts in Ohio would flip the Ohio election. That's not a lot of votes to flip for the most powerful position on the planet.
(14 less for Kerry, 14 more for Bush = 28 votes x 5000 precincts = 140,000, way more than the "margin of victory.")
~~~~~~~~~~~~~

My analysis is that most of Congress (except the Black Caucus) is so beholden to corporations, particularly the defense industry, that they just play along. Corporations, the defense industry, and the wealthiest of the globe get their way, through legal financial maneuvers, and plenty of laundered money. They get war -- Bush and Kerry both basically agree with the Iraq war, even though the US citizenry does not. The media plays along, but hopes that the people can be strung along with the "news" that the election will be really tight (two presidential elections in a row now), so they can reap lots of advertising dollars from the politicians -- hundreds of millions.

The Republicans threw every possible thing, including the kitchen sink, at the presidential election because if you look at the accomplishments of George W. Bush and his administration, there is not one thing he has done right. Not one. The economy is in the tank, the debt is worrying even the IMF, hardly any country in the world likes us even if we bribe them. The ultra-wealthy got a tax cut, and the war-mongers got billions in business. What few little people were bought in came for small potatoes -- the fear of terrorists, the fear that Steve and Todd down the street might get married, and the $1 billion used to buy the faith-based crowd.

The only way to "win" an election in that situation is to steal it every which way, which they did.

We live in Delusion Land folks. And, we just were fed a $400 million mock election.

[Hugin]

74. Buried *that* one didn't they?

Very interesting... Holy cow. 5.4 million votes, astounding.

Thanks Zan_of_Texas.

Think we'll ever hear any peep of this anywhere?

"hundreds of millions." Last I heard it was 4 Billion (with a "B")

[anaxarchos]

52. The Supreme Court did it.

They capped a twenty year trend of Republican "win at any cost" morality in 2000.

When one has "god and country" on the brain, it is easy for other values to fall from grace... like Democracy, Fairness, Justice, Truth, Law.

[Hugin]

54. "win at any cost"...

Especially since we're still adding up what their win is
costing us.

Good point and sound reasoning anaxarchos. =)

[trudyco]

59. I think the media bias was the biggest problem

This has been going on since Carter - I remember how every day the networks posted how long the hostages had been held. Reagan made it much worse. Ted Turner selling out was not good. The Democrats have known this for a long time and done nothing about it. I blame Clinton for not doing something about it. This was more important than universal health care. For a brief time he had Democratic control and he blew the chance to set Democracy back on its tracks.

Also, the ownership of vote counting has been leaning towards the right for years, too. I had no clue about this until after Nov 2, 2004. Actually, I think most people think voter fraud goes on but not massive election fraud. They still believe in USA and apple pie and Democracy. Heck, I was just reading "the rights of citizens" to my second grader about how in a democracy we have the right and responsibility to vote. We somehow think that we have better genes than the rest of the world or something. For some reason we assume we don't commit fraud like other countries. We also think the media is reasonably balanced and factual. Myths.

The Democrats, besides being asleep at the wheel, have left themselves open to reframing the question in the Neocons favor. As a quasi Christian parent I am appalled at Private Ryan being played during primetime hours. Clips from adult shows are shown during child viewing time (no nudity but teens jumping into bed together goes too far). Kid shows are really violent. The "liberals" back this lack of TV/Movie standards. This gets in the craw of any parent trying to raise a G rated kid. The "liberals" push too far back on religion, too. This threatens certain religious types and the neocons have really played this group. The "liberals" also champion bilingual stuff and the embracing of illegal aliens. I know a lot of moderate republicans who were kept in the Republican camp because of this.

So I think there was a lot of opportunity to stop the Neocons in their tracks if the Democrats could get organized and grow a backbone. Have a plan. Kerry got the nomination because the RWingnuts managed to make Liberal a dirty word and the other guys were too "liberal". I think it was legit. It was the Democrats playing defense again.

Still, Bush was a terrible president and I think he committed widespread F* to make sure there was no question he won the popular vote. Then there was targeted F* in swing states to make sure he won the electoral vote. The gay stuff I think was just a red herring - a way to explain the vote which was really election fraud. The Republican GOTV was a lie. The fear mongering was probably his best GOTV strategy. A lot of people believed he was somehow the better candidate against terrorism - even people I thought had half a brain. Again, the media control was the biggest asset of all. Kerry could have done some things better but really the media slant always worked against him. Of course, now the media slant keeps people from questioning what happened.

The fraud - 10 phantom votes or so per precinct in Shrubs favor to make sure he got the popular vote. If found, it could be explained as a glitch. Then there was other targetted fraud in specific counties to give him the electoral vote and also to get key senators and congresscritters in office. Probably local people and judges, too.

Now that I know what I know I'd say this has been going on since before 2000. Is this also how the repubs manage to get their people to vote the party line? Do they have this "secret" hanging over their heads?

trudyco

[Hugin]

60. Do they have this "secret" hanging over their heads?

Yes, and it's called $$$. ;)

"The "liberals" back this lack of TV/Movie standards."
I'm fairly liberal and I don't back it.

Thanks for posting I appreciate hearing your views. =)

[Old Mouse]

61. Problems inherent in the system

I believe there were indiscretions on both sides, and have been as long as there have been elections.

Many of these scams, voter suppression, fraud, etc. were individuals and small groups doing, without authority, what they thought best for the party. Using coercion, bribery and blackmail, Rove was able to organize the Republican side of these loose separate efforts in an al Qaeda style to great benefit.

Some small town southern Republicans first noticed the lack of oversight with electronic voting, and began using it with the idea of winning office. With repeated years of use the trick became more well known and used with greater abandon. More prominent members of the party took control of the technology began using it for long term plans.

Leaders of the corporate community and owners of media pushed pro-Bush ideals for their own self interest, but most capitulation by the main stream media was because Bush put on a more interesting show, played better to the cameras. With bloody war, torture, monsters and lunatics in his cabinet, the "idiot" created ratings greater than the past two administrations combined.

Throughout the election Bush and Rove ran their campaign only to their constituents, and only through the eyes of the cameras. The hope was to keep public perception of popularity, so that any fraud would go unquestioned.

I firmly believe Rove and Bush hoped the minor, regional techniques of fraud and suppression would work, but as the polls came in and showed the Democratic youth base and Republican defection to be so overwhelming he had to resort to using electronic manipulation on a scale massive enough to risk detection.

The response from the Democrats was to let them have the election. Believing the nation and their party will eternally endure, many within the party elite crave the new interpretation of presidential powers for themselves. They also do not want a serious investigation into dirty government.

[Hugin]

62. Thought provoking post.

Thanks for taking the time to write it! =)

[passy]

65. I already replied to someone's post with this, but here it is again.

they used something like this to access tabulating computers: http://www.digi.com/products/remotewirelesscellular/digiconnectwangsm.jsp for the non technically minded you can access a computer remotely by connecting this to it making it in effect a mobile phone. You can then ring it and do what you want with it.
For the technically minded it manages to do this too "the ability to traverse firewalls, and the ability to move the connection virtually anywhere" .
A more advanced version of this on the motherboard of tabulating machines would be just great for rigging elections wouldn't it.

[Hugin]

69. Cooool...

Yeah, pretty scary!

Thanks passy.

P.S. I want one!

[ottozen]

68. Hacked from a central location/ Fail Safe Option

Can someone disprove that it would be possible for one person at one location to gain enough access to the vote tabulators to transform the vote nationwide once the perps realized that things were not going to go their way despite the massive disenfranchisement and dirty tricks.

I asked Wayne Madsen this question a while back and referenced one Michael Riconosciuto, whom the government has in their custody with no likely date of release. He cryptically said that Rove had another similar person that he was likely to put out there as a red herring. I have not heard of such another person, and have been following pretty closely. We also have not heard anything from Madsen since I asked him this question.

Perhaps all the disenfranchisement is the red herring, when the reality is, that at least for this one election, a desperate hacker and computer programmer who is by all accounts an unparalleled genius, in a misguided attempt to achieve his freedom, bought an empty promise from Rove or some other similarly situated operative.

I had noticed that Riconosciuto, for some reason was transferred to a mental hospital in Kansas of late.

The Fail Safe Option????

Sorry for double post. Meant to reply to main post originally.

[Hugin]

71. Verrry Gooood!

Now, we're talking. ;)

"Perhaps all the disenfranchisement is the red herring, when the reality is, that at least for this one election, a desperate hacker and computer programmer who is by all accounts an unparalleled genius, in a misguided attempt to achieve his freedom, bought an empty promise from Rove or some other similarly situated operative."

This is one of those ideas which is so off the wall whomever used
it would be "sure nobody would think of it" and it falls under
the standard "plausible denyability" curtain.

Clever.

Thanks ottozen.

[Zan_of_Texas]

75. Remote tinkering with election results

is discussed in this article:


"Even a Remote Chance?"
Voters Unite
January 10, 2005
http://www.votersunite.org/info/evenaremotechance.htm

[Hugin]

82. Good Reading Zan. n/t

[ClintCooper2003]

89. I feel that one of the biggest stories that I "feel" happened was

the simple purging of the rosters in many states. I myself was purged from the roster. And for the very first time in my precinct, many others were too. I feel thousands, if not hundreds of thousands of voters across the country were simply eliminated from the rosters because they were going to vote for John Kerry.

[southwood]

106. Agreed!

See my post # 81. Voters have been purged, pre-challenged or even "moved" to a different place in order to prevent them from voting.

[consciousobjector]

92. So far this thread hasn't ventured into the wacky yet...

so I must inject the theory that if there was no election fraud, if the exit polls really were off by more than the margin of error, if * actually did win...then perhaps Zaphod Beeblebrox was orbiting the planet in the "Heart of Gold" and had the improbability drive running last fall.....perhaps we should all grab our towels and please - DON"T PANIC :silly:

[Hugin]

98. Very observant...

No, no wackiness here yet. =)

[Nimrod]

97. "Business as usual"

I don't think anything different happened in this election other than they (correctly) judged the American public to be so dumbed-down that there was no real need to hide their actions. I imagine it was nice to save that time, effort, and money this time around - they could save it for the coronation.

This is a rigged game. Has been for a long time. We elect no one.

[Hugin]

99. Yeah, too bad, huh?

The idea that there *are* popular elections in this country
may be the biggest conspiracy theory of all.

Thanks for pointing that out Nimrod. =)

[mod mom]

101. bu$h is sooo EVIL that it's time to take a stand before he starts WWIII.

His policies, total disregard for the constitution, lies to the Amercian people, manipulation of msm, alienation of our allies, belief he has God's ear, makes him dangerous to the world. His "legacy" has left our children a huge deficit, caused the proliferation of terrorists, hatred of the US to the point we are becoming isolated from the free world. He is a powerful bully who is willing to trample on our constitution , as well as human rights, in order to pursue his warped reality. I say we must stand up to this bully NOW and assure future elections will not be stolen and will represent the will of the American people in a fair way. He must be held accountable for his lies, and actions.

I will get off my soap box now-but I can't tolerate the "business as usual" stance. We need action to assure our equal protection under the law and integrity in our election process!

[Hugin]

104. Stay up there on the soap box...

I hear what you're saying. =)

"business as usual"... Hummmpf!

[Nimrod]

109. I fully agree

The problem is, how? How do you take a stand when the ruling class couldn't give two shits what you think and admits it? If they decide they want WWIII, then that's just how it's going to be - if you're lucky, maybe they'll pause long enough to stick their tongue out at you. You can take all the stands you want, but since you simply don't exist as far as the elite that rule the nation are concerned it's not going to do a whole lot. MAYBE a minor inconvenience if you're blocking traffic or something, but then again we've got billion-dollar helicopters to take care of that little annoyance.

We have no voice, we have no say, we have no power. If there's a comfort to be had, it's that the common-man bushbots have no power either, they just get pats on the head for being good little servants. Not even any puppy-treats, just a pat. That seems to be enough for them though.

Anyway, that's just my personal theory. Simply that the corruption is so much a part of our society now that nothing is ever going to root it all out. All attempts to do so is throwing coats of paint on a building that should have been demolished about 20 years ago.

[Hugin]

111. Thomas Jefferson would agree with what you say...

That darn liberal radical insurgent.

Damn him and his documents... NOT!

=)

[sagesnow]

107. I wonder if what happened in Sarpy County NE may reflect

what happened Nationwide. A small Republican ward in Sarpy County Ne borrowed a voting machine (ES&S) from Omaha, NE. Low and behold the machine totals Nov 2nd came up with as many as 10,000 more votes than registered voters. Here is the story from WOW TV Nov.4:
http://www.wowt.com/news/headlines/1161971.html

The article said that election officials were able to determine the actual vote count and that in any event, the extra votes were added proportionately(??) to all candidates. I'm not sure who audited that recount.

I am still wondering why a large democratic city loaned a voting machine to small republican town. I also wonder if the machine was preset to add votes to specific candidates. If the machine had not been loaned out, would the phantom votes have even been noticed at all in a large ward in Omaha? Was the wrong machine accidentally loaned out?

Will these questions be forever unanswered?

[Hugin]

112. Probably...

Very interesting investigation and theory on your part, though...

VERY INTERESTING INDEED...

"If the machine had not been loaned out, would the phantom votes have even been noticed at all in a large ward in Omaha? Was the wrong machine accidentally loaned out?"
If the election officials assumed the machines were all the same
and simply grabbed one off the shelf this could very well be
true.

I doubt we'll ever really know. But, people like you bringing
up points like this shows there is some hope. Thanks. =)

[AntiFascist]

110. Here's some conspiracy for ya....

W represents the ultimate in programmed mind control technique. His father, former CIA head and son of Nazi collaborator, has molded the perfect leader who can be controlled by those with few if any morals or conscience. Both Bushes mastered the art of Orwellian doublespeak, but Bush version II has overcome the problems of Bush I by relating better to the masses. Meanwhile the common people get summarily attacked, raped, and pillaged. The falling dollar alone has greatly increased the wealth of all who maintain Swiss bank accounts.

This gem of a leader was far too valuable for the illuminati of the world to let slip through their fingers. Wealthy Arabs, experts at money laundering, combined efforts with neocons and the shadow government to pull off the broadest possible election heist while covering their tracks and performing effective character (or other) assassinations of any who dare question the validity of the election process. The media, which by now is owned by a select few corporations, is bought and paid for so all that's left to worry about is the x-file wing of the internet...

If only this were all fiction.

[Hugin]

113. Nobody would believe it...

Truth is indeed stranger than fiction...

"the Illuminati" aren't necessarily "bad guys"... Simply more
organized than the libs are turning out to be.

Thanks for your post. I enjoyed it immensely. =)

[Hugin]

114. I'd like to get some weekend people's responses here too. =) n/t

[Rocky Top]

115. Kick!!!

[davidgmills]

116. The computer generated self-coup of 2004

I have had a hard time coming to grips with my conclusion that we have just experienced a bloodless self-coup.

But I am now convinced it happened.

I can not get over the exit poll / actual tabulation discrepancies.

I am firmly convinced now by UScountthevotes' article, and their response to the criticisms of it, that the only plausible explanation for the reason that the Democrats are not in charge of the executive is that there was an orchestrated computer generated self-coup.

I don't want to call it election fraud.

That is not sufficient.

I had to look up on Wikipedia the proper term for this kind of bloodless coup. The closest term to what I think happened is called self-coup. Self-coup encompasses the notion of retention of power by the control and illegal abuse of a vital part of the governmental process.

What would you call what happened, if not that?

[Hugin]

118. I would call it exactly that davidgmills...

2004 was a self-coup to retain power after the bloodless coup in 2000.

I expect to see more of this kind of thing. There's so much mess
to keep under cover now.

Thanks for your input. =)

[IndyPriest]

120. I think the truly oddest thing is that the weirdest things we

can imagine probably happened. All of them. With this administration being so far out of the box, I can't imagine a theory that could deal with it that would be so far out as to be "out of the box."

[Wrinkle_In_Time]

121. Aliens...

...Prag said:

In this thread no idea is wacky, unsupportable, or plain wrong. It's about feelings. What do you feel happened in the election. Please, if you do have some indicator or evidence for your pet theory post it.
{...}
I'm going for details here... details!

Well, there was a bright light, a humming sound, then I felt weightless and then were the anal probes... enough details? It's all about the Aliens. Don't blame me, I voted for Kodos.

This is such an odd thread, Prag. You alone make up 43% of the posts in it, at the time of my post. If you have really "scanned through this forum" as you claim, then you should have gathered all the information that you need.

You asked for our "feelings": these are mine (at least the polite version). Feel free to infer the rest.