Election Reform AND Election Justice -- what this Orange Stater wants.

[Fly by night]

I want to throw this topic out to anyone who feels the way I do and wants a chance to express it. Simply put: it's not just about election reform to me. It is also fundamentally about election justice.

I, for one, do not need any more convincing that every conceivable law governing elections in this country was violated -- somewhere, sometime, probably many sometimes AND intentionally almost every time -- in 2004. The multi-faceted, superbly analyzed evidence for the election theft is overwhelming and (thanks to DU) available to all of us "in the original text", instantaneously at our fingertips. In addition, I can now discuss individual acts of voter suppression, "dirty tricks" on election day and electronic voting problems that occurred in Tennessee through the EIRS. So I am not only convinced, but I am beginning to be mighty damn efficient at convincing other people, that this election was indeed stolen. And with it, the legitimacy of the sitting government.

So for me, my efforts (our efforts) can no longer simply be about reforming our elections. For me -- and I hope for a lot of you -- it must also be about finding justice for those who engaged in a plan to intentionally and fraudulently manipulate the national election system in this, the world's most powerful democracy. The people who engaged in these acts of voting suppression, dirty tricks and election fraud at any level -- local, state or national -- need to be held accountable in courts of law. I do not want us to stop until we have pursued every case available to us at every level and ensure that redress is sought and secured for the violation of our democratic franchise.

I'd like to hear from you folks on any of three issues. First, how do you feel about making sure that election justice gets equal billing and attention as election reform as we move forward on this issue? Second, what do you want to see happen re: election justice? And third, what cases -- civil, criminal or constitutional -- are now being pursued to achieve election justice? On the third point, please share with all of us what you know about any avenues that are available to us and that some of you are actively pursuing (like invoking the Fourteenth Amendment and working to reduce the size of Ohio's Congressional delegation).

Right now, I feel the need to hear about 2004 election theft justice not being delayed, much less denied. So how about it, DUers, anybody else want a little sweet, swift and substantial justice served with their reforms, and soon? Sure sounds sweet to me.

Let me hear from you. Now more oak and cherry in the wood stove and get ready for bed.

No Election Justice -- No Peace.

[Bill Bored]

1. Yeah, let's find 'em, smoke 'em out and bring 'em to justice! nt

[Fly by night]

2. Couldn't agree with you more.

[emlev]

3. There's a lot brewing

and I'd love it if someone is up to pulling it all together and posting it here.

Does anyone know if there are class action suits happening by groups of disenfranchised voters?

[eomer]

4. Without election justice, election reform is worthless.

So long as fraud can be committed and there is no legal redress, then it doesn't matter what the system is. It is impossible to invent an election system that can't be cheated if you can break the rules with impunity.

I can think of at least three legs our election stool needs:
1) An election system that is relatively transparent and verifiable
2) A legal environment that actually prosecutes violations of the election system
3) A way for the public to receive true and relatively complete information about the election system and the legal redress of violations.

We currently have none of the above. Getting one or two of the three may seem like progress but I don't believe we will have a fair election system until we achieve all three.

[Fly by night]

5. kick

[marions ghost]

9. Good points...

re #3 --getting information out to the public that gives them some ability to question their experience locally is sorely needed.
This was attemted by various private groups before the election, and SHOULD be fully supported by the board of elections, but as we know they are partisan and often don't want to provide information.

re #2 --We have a legal system that is snowed under with murders, drugs, custody battles, fraud. There is no "political will" to prosecute election crimes. How do we change this?

[kster]

6. Where do

I sign up.

[electropop]

7. Absolutely. If we can't enforce our current laws,

... what good will a new fig-leaf do? We need justice NOW, not some warm fuzzy deception like HAVA again. HAVA was passed because the Repukes figured out how to use it as a tool to install electronic voting machines. HAVA II will only make matters even worse, because they will figure out some even more subtle angle, or be so emboldened they will blatantly trample our rights further.

[marions ghost]

8. Expose and challenge the conditions that have allowed election theft

Yes we need to challenge the laws, and enforce the laws, and make new ones if necessary. Obviously the perpetrators of election "irregularities" have NO fear of the laws as they stand.
I totally agree that "every conceivable law governing elections was violated," some in the most blatant and careless ways. Election reform without addressing the grievances that have occurred is not logical. They are interrelated. But it's a huge job.

If they get this case going in WA it will be helpful:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=203&topic_id=310220

[Fly by night]

16. It's a big job. But we definitely need to do it.

There's LOTS of rats that helped pull this nationwide scheme off. And we need a number of them doing hard time and suffering public humiliation and branding as anti-democratic traitors to send the rest of them back to their frat house and country club hidey-holes.

[demodonkey]

10. YES! Find 'em and smoke 'em out of their holes! eom

[trudyco]

11. You said it so well! Exactly how I feel...

Without justice, without punishing the election fraud starting with 2004 there is no chance for reform. It's just a house of cards, no matter how pretty the design.

I'm really curious about the court proceedings going on in Germany against Rummy et al. How does this work? Can you claim election fraud 2004 over there? I know it isn't the same in that they can't force the USA to provide discovery but at least it might get some press.

I am so tired of all these groups - the Democratic congress, senate, Barbara Boxer, Common Cause, Interfaith Alliance, and more I can't remember. Now they are asking for money from me via email. It used to be snailmail. I guess they think they've gotten hip or something.

What angers me as that the Democrats don't even explain why they need the money - to "fight" the Republicans for Gonzalez or Privatizing social security or whatever - what do they need money for? What they need is a backbone and a cohesive plan. They DO need money to investigate the vote and to lead people on this and election reform and to find a way to get their voice on the air on a regular basis(air America or FreespheechTV or Links or Cspan or something!) to start mentioning all the things DU talks about. Then they need money to take election reform and stiff penalties for violations to the state as well as the national level.

All they seem interested in, even Boxer, is spouting whatever they think you are passionate about and then asking for money for their next election.

I'm tired of requests for money and petitions to sign. I want election justice. I want leadership in getting it. I want updates and how I can help locally. I want a cohesive plan for election reform both nationally AND LOCALLY. And I want the Democratic voice to be heard again.

Thanks for giving me the right words. Election justice. Now.
trudyco

[Fly by night]

12. Thanks for your kind words. We all need to keep saying "Justice NOW".

[icehenge]

13. Justice needs to be served I agree

Speaking of Election Reform with regards to the VIVA 2005
bill for Voting integrity and Verification Act.

This is bill that we are being asked to support.
VIVA 2005 - By Senator John Ensign
http://www.ballotintegrity.org/action.html

I just called my senators, First and Alexander.

Senator Alexanders secretary didn't sound as though she
was aware of the upcoming bill being introduced.

Senator Frist secretary did not mention adding my name
to a list. Which lead me to to believe not many people
have been calling these senators about this bill.

Please call your senators, and if you happen to live in
Tennessee its important to call Sen Frist. He is the
majority leader.

---
Senator William H. Frist (R- TN)
Phone [phone] Fax [phone] http://frist.senate.gov/index.cfm?FuseAction=AboutSenatorFrist.ContactForm

Senator Lamar Alexander (R- TN)
Phone [phone] Fax [phone]
http://alexander.senate.gov/contact/

[Fly by night]

14. Please list any pending or planned legal action for election justice

One of the reasons I started this thread was to allow DUers a place to develop a quick listing of pending or planned legal action re: the 2004 election. We all know a little about what's happening with Arnebeck et al in Ohio, but I don't have the details on where things stand now there. Likewise, I know nothing about the status of legal actions related to the recount efforts in any states, or whether Sproul and others are being prosecuted for voter disenfranchisement activities. Or whether individual citizens have legal recourse regarding their own voting experiences to bring suits or criminal cases.

So if any of you can shed some light on any pending or planned legal action, list it below. Thanks kindly.

[demodonkey]

15. Ohio Recount still has case pending in Federal Court.

US District Court For the Southern District of Ohio

Civil Action No. C2-04-1139

Sometimes called Yost v. Cobb or Yost et al. v. NVRI et al. (I think)

[emlev]

17. Have their been any signs yet of how it's going?

And does it ask for specific remedies if the votes were recounted and, say, come out significantly DIFFERENT?