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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-28-04 11:31 AM
Original message
In defense of John Kerry
Senator Kerry does not need to be defended by me or anyone else. But the reason I am writing this is that I feel that all of the carping and hostility directed at him, and the impugning of his character because of his low visibility in the fight to overturn the election is bad for all of us, including those who are doing it.

Like most of you, I am bitterly disappointed about the election results, I strongly believe that the election was stolen, and I am very upset about the main stream media’s lack of coverage of the election fraud. I also do not understand why John Kerry has not chosen to fight this in a way that attracts a good deal of attention.

But let’s put this in context by considering some of his main achievements: He has a record of heroic performance during the Viet Nam war. Then after becoming disenchanted with that war, he came home to lead the anti-war effort. Those efforts in all probability helped to shorten the war, resulting in the avoidance of thousands of additional deaths of U.S. and Vietnamese soldiers and Vietnamese civilians. A decade or so later, as a U.S. Senator, he served similar ends with regard to the war in Nicaragua, by leading the effort in the Senate to terminate U.S. involvement in that war. And most recently, he represented the Democratic Party in its efforts to unseat George Bush. He ran a fine campaign, crushing his opponent in all three debates so badly that even most Republicans had to admit it. Against all the advantages of an incumbent Republican President, he managed to win the election by a substantial amount (before secret electronic voting machine software and other dirty tricks reversed that result).

These are an extremely impressive list of accomplishments. If he never accomplishes another useful purpose for the rest of his life, his past accomplishments are certainly far more than I can claim credit for or am ever likely to achieve. I doubt that many people could say otherwise about themselves. For this reason alone I would not feel comfortable impugning his character.

I didn’t vote for John Kerry in the 2004 Democratic primaries, and I may not vote for him in the 2008 Democratic primaries if he’s not President by then and if he chooses to run again. None of what I said above should prevent me from expressing criticism of him if I feel it warranted.

As I said above, I don’t understand why he hasn’t fought the election results in a more visible manner. Some of you think he’s doing that for good solid strategic reasons. Others feel he’s simply trying to maintain his political viability for another run at the Presidency in 2008. Maybe he’s aware of some things that we aren’t privy to. Or maybe he’s just plain burnt out after all that he’s been through. I probably would be in his situation. But above all, I recognize that few if any of us can know what is truly going on at this point. And I believe that the negativity directed towards him is compromising our fight.

I am among the many of you who are losing patience with this whole thing and would like to see John Kerry maintain a much more visible role. But I say, let’s give him credit for all that he’s done, and let’s not worry about why he’s handling this the way he is. If he’s making a mistake, let’s recognize that we shouldn’t expect him to be God. And let’s continue to do what we think is right. Let’s continue in this truly tremendous effort, as so many thousands of us have, to bring democracy back to our country.
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molly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-28-04 11:34 AM
Response to Original message
1. You need not defend him or his record to me
I was with him from the beginning. Those who wish him ill-will or constantly rag him for his stance, are still upset about the him as our over-whelming choice. They can pound salt as far as I'm concerned.
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mourningdove92 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-28-04 11:35 AM
Response to Original message
2. I was thinking about Kerry and the voting fraud earlier.
Bush has gotten away with so much. Kerry has to be very careful here. If voting fraud can be PROVEN, he should jump in. If not, he is better off keeping a low profile.
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electropop Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-28-04 11:38 AM
Response to Reply #2
4. "election fraud" please
"voting fraud" is the Rove term, intended to make it sound like the voters' fault.
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Pacifist Patriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-28-04 12:46 PM
Response to Reply #4
33. I've been trying to be even more specific.
I've used vote suppression and vote manipulation as components of election fraud. I try to be very clear which I am talking about. It seems to have helped in my conversations with both private individuals and media contacts. You make an excellent point.
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ClassWarrior Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-28-04 11:37 AM
Response to Original message
3. Most of the apparent "carping and hostility" is really just disruption...
...by the enemy. Their goal is to spread confusion and doubt, so - they hope - DUers start thinking of JK and the rest of our Dem leaders as the enemies, instead of Bush**, Cheney**, and the flying monkeys of the Radical Right Wing. Just ignore 'em and they'll slither away.

NGU.


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mzmolly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-28-04 11:42 AM
Response to Reply #3
9. You got it CW.
Right you are again :toast:
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seito Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-28-04 01:07 PM
Response to Reply #3
39. Hey CW,
WHAT ARE THEY HIDING?
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ClassWarrior Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-28-04 01:10 PM
Response to Reply #39
41. Good question... ~scratching my chin~
:hi:

NGU.


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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-28-04 04:20 PM
Response to Reply #3
67. Been working well so far
That's how Bush keeps getting away with his bullshit, people going off on the Democrats instead of keeping the focus on the Bushies. They don't slither away either, they just keep at it every time another issue turns up. They're either moles or idiots, I'm not sure which.
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GetTheRightVote Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-28-04 11:39 AM
Response to Original message
5. As the representative which we voted for it is his duty to stand by
Edited on Tue Dec-28-04 11:39 AM by GetTheRightVote
our side now that fraud is being proven, why else should we waste our vote on him at all, why not just vote for * and they we can say we atleast voted for the winner. Of course I would never do it, * is a slum ball, yuke, yuke.

:mad:
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mzmolly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-28-04 11:41 AM
Response to Reply #5
7. Fraud has not been "proven"
key point. :hi:
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molly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-28-04 11:42 AM
Response to Reply #5
8. Waste our vote?
who was your choice?
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mzmolly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-28-04 11:41 AM
Response to Original message
6. I think Kerry has learned that "anything you do/say will be held against
you in the court of public opinion"

You mentioned his heroic record, just look at the slander that he has had to endure inspite of that? "Swiftboat vets for bullshit" and then some.

Kerry is playing this like he has to. There is no PROOF of fraud. I repeat no "THERE IS NO PROOF OF FRAUD," there are many accounts/stories and some conflict with other stories, but there is not actual proof. He can't come out gunz a blazin' until such time.

Kerry's duty to us is to make sure the votes are counted, and to make sure that democracy is upheld so that if fraud occured we will find out. He is doing that.

Further, the MAJORITY of people bitching about Kerry now are the same ones (Nader supporters) who refused to vote for him in the first place. It's another way to justify their lack of effort. They kinda wanted Kerry to "win" but didn't want to take any action to make that happen. F-em I say.

:hi:
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lostnfound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-28-04 11:47 AM
Response to Reply #6
11. I agree, and I would add..
it's better for US if we don't effectively lose a senator unless we are actually going to gain something from it.

If he is piloried as a lunatic by the media for supporting fraud theories, he will be ineffective as a Senator other than simply casting a vote.
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mzmolly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-28-04 12:01 PM
Response to Reply #11
16. You got it. I wonder if people here are really that naive or - just plain
disruptors? :hi:
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bunny planet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-28-04 12:02 PM
Response to Reply #11
17. so true. We need all the Senators we can get obviously.
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merh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-28-04 12:21 PM
Response to Reply #11
21. That is a fact that is lost on so many here.
Thank you for trying to make the point again. :hi:
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lostnfound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-28-04 01:05 PM
Response to Reply #21
38. It would have been lost on me about 8 months ago.
But closely following the media coverage for the last year has opened my eyes to the incredible obstacles.
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ginnyinWI Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-28-04 01:18 PM
Response to Reply #11
44. Yes, JK knows this better than anyone
he will not want to burn his bridges on a long-shot, and not have his clout in the Senate because of it. I trust him to do what's best for America, as he always has.
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merh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-28-04 11:47 AM
Response to Reply #6
12. Wonderful post mzmolly!
I couldn't agree with you more. Thanks so much. :thumbsup:
:hi:
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mzmolly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-28-04 12:03 PM
Response to Reply #12
18. Thanks Merh.
:hi:
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Eloriel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-28-04 12:21 PM
Response to Reply #6
20. What would constitute "proof" to you, mzmolly? Or anyone else?
I'd like to know -- every time I see someone say that, I ask, and I don't get any answers. Do YOU have an answer? It's a very simple question: WHAT CONSTITUTES PROOF for you?
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mzmolly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-28-04 12:32 PM
Response to Reply #20
27. Proof that would be enough to prosecute someone for fraud.
Edited on Tue Dec-28-04 01:18 PM by mzmolly
PROOF that the numbers of the recounts are not jiving with the machine totals and that said discprepancy is enough to prove fraud. PROOF that "fraud" occurred.

Right now we are in the investigative stage. Kerry is supporting that investigation as needed. But, just because he's not ready to scream fraud doesn't make him an asshole.

We have anecdotal evidence that fraud may or may not have occurred. We don't have proof ... yet. Kerry, once again is supporting the effort to find out - so am I.

People bitch about Dean not screaming fraud as well. We all need patience in this as an investigation takes time.
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seito Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-28-04 12:52 PM
Response to Reply #6
34. Mzmoly, I always appreciate your thoughts
I might add, many people that bash Kerry now have not finished fighting the battles of the primaries.
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mzmolly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-28-04 01:20 PM
Response to Reply #34
45. You are so right Seito.
...many people that bash Kerry now have not finished fighting the battles of the primaries."
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madison2000 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-28-04 11:43 AM
Response to Original message
10. Great post, Time for change
Thank you.
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IndyOp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-28-04 11:47 AM
Response to Original message
13. I think this sentence is the MOST important:
"Against all the advantages of an incumbent Republican President, he managed to win the election by a substantial amount (before secret electronic voting machine software and other dirty tricks reversed that result)." He WON. He is not a looser.

Further, again, he is a prosecutor, he is not going to accuse anyone until he has the facts. He is on the job and he will be until he is able to do the deed that brings the Bush adminstration and their many, many cronies down HARD.

We don't need him to 'put on show on Jan 6th' -- we need this horror exposed, we need our democracy back. (I do want a contest on the 6th - but we don't need Kerry).

I did not vote for Kerry in the primaries. I am glad, however that he, instead of Dennis Kucinich, is in this battle. Kerry has the connections, the power, and the wisdom to use both. I am willing to wait.

I won't critique or attack him until we have gotten some perspective in his role in all of this (which may take years). Wouldn't it turn out to be stunning if he does the hard work over the next few months and then hands it over to someone else to present for impeachment -- thus getting little or no credit himself. I can see that happening.

:kick:



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FogerRox Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-28-04 12:24 PM
Response to Reply #13
22. Right on BRO--Right on--in the mean time--MSM protest in NYC @ CBS
500K folks in NYC ? Help me make it true


My Mission: TARGET CBS

Join the protest @ CBS in NYC or protest in DC--or protest a TV station in your area. If enough Peeps show @ CBS I will extend the efforts to other outlets.

http://www.51capitalmarch.com /
roger@51capitalmarch.com /



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Eloriel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-28-04 12:25 PM
Response to Reply #13
23. There's something else that's complete and utter BULLSHIT
Further, again, he is a prosecutor, he is not going to accuse anyone until he has the facts.

There's a LOT that went on that needs to be challenged and confronted and COULD be without making accusations of "fraud." There were "irregularities" and "glitches" and "anomalies" everywhere you turned.

There was also massive, organized, overwhelming voter suppression, well-documented (and sworn to), and he's not had the guts to talk about that either.

STOP MAKING EXCUSES THAT DON'T HOLD WATER. GET OUT OF YOUR DENIAL. STOP BEING DELUSIONAL. STOP ENGAGING IN NON-PRODUCTIVE WISHFUL THINKING AND FANTASY.
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IndyOp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-28-04 02:50 PM
Response to Reply #23
53. Eloriel - You may be right, I may be thinking delusionally.
Edited on Tue Dec-28-04 02:53 PM by IndyOp
Maybe Kerry is not working hard behind the scenes in order to act when he believes that he is most likely to get the desired result.

The fact that there was massive, organized, overwhelming voter suppression is critically important -- this alone condemns our so-called democracy. What needs to happen? A whole lot. We need federal election standards applied by bi-partisan, unpaid teams across the county on identical voting systems. (I vote for felt-tipped pen on paper). We need more than this... When must we act to make this come true? Over the next few months - quickly, but not immediately.

I am strongly inclined to believe that if Kerry did not believe that they had a very good chance of demonstrating massive fraud within the next few months, then John Kerry would be speaking out with Jesse Jackson now on TV about Civil Rights violations and election reforms. If he had his eye on the Presidential race in 2008 -- this would be the perfect politically-popular act.

IMO the fact that he is not playing politician right now is an indicator of the fact that he *is* working on the vote fraud issues. I could be wrong. He did assign his own personal staff to investigate the Contra-Cocaine scandal with Bob Perry (AP) first broke the case and no other Senator would pay attention. I do not believe that he would investigate that and not this.

I don't think the current situation is about having or not having guts -- Karl Rove has guts -- we need more.

I'll probably stick with the wishful thinking, but will continue to try to be productive.

:kick:
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Pacifist Patriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-28-04 12:44 PM
Response to Reply #13
31. Well technically, if no other senators
decide to contest on Jan 6th than yes, we do need him. But I see what you mean.
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ginnyinWI Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-28-04 01:26 PM
Response to Reply #13
46. he's done that before
"...thus getting little or no credit himself. I can see that happening."

He broke open the BCCI scandal, then when it got too hot for Congress to handle,was advised to stop. He then proceeded to hand it off to a NY attorney, who finished the job. For Kerry, getting justice served was the main thing, not political points.
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PaganPreacher Donating Member (653 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-28-04 01:44 PM
Response to Reply #13
48. John Kerry is not a prosecutor.
John Kerry was Middlesex County, MA prosecutor for 3 years back in the 1970s. I worked on our neighbor's ranch for 3 years in the 70s, but that doesn't make me a cowboy today.

During his three years as the Middlesex County prosecutor, Kerry won only one felony case at trial, according to Findlaw. You can look it up, if you want. I did.

John Kerry is a politician, Indy, and has been one for the past quarter century. As a politician, he will only do that which benefits him politically.

That is why he is skiing in red-state Idaho this week, instead of showing his face in Ohio, or Florida, or in Boston where some well-meaning DU-bees are freezing their butts off outside his house.

He knows he lost, by fair means or foul (personally, I think it was fair, but you and I are free to disagree.) He'll enjoy his vacation, make his "swing through the Middle East", then go back to Washington for the Inauguration, where he'll shake W's hand.

Then again, Indy, if you do all the work, and offer him the office on a silver salver, maybe he'll jump on the bandwagon. That's what good, decisive leaders do, after all....as my old grand-dad once told me:

I remember the winter of '44, when we were fighting our way through the Ardennes forest. Jerry had us pinned down, and we couldn't move an inch. We heard that Ike had flown to Vermont for a skiing vacation, and that inspired us to fight like hell and drive Jerry back across the Rhine.

An omen for 60 years later? You be the judge....

Speaking of bandwagons, have you ever seen one, Indy? They look like this:



The Pagan Preacher
I don't turn the other cheek.
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seito Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-28-04 01:57 PM
Response to Reply #48
50. Sorry to disagree
"John Kerry is a politician, Indy, and has been one for the past quarter century. As a politician, he will only do that which benefits him politically."

What John Kerry did in exposing Iran Contra and BCCI did little, if anything, to benefit him politically. On the contrary, it could have ended in political suicide.
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IndyOp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-28-04 03:03 PM
Response to Reply #48
54. LOL ---
Edited on Tue Dec-28-04 03:32 PM by IndyOp
I worked on our neighbor's ranch for 3 years in the 70s, but that doesn't make me a cowboy today.

But it clearly does make you a far more sensible fellow than * -- who actually believes he is a cowboy!

Glad we are okay with disagreeing -- only time will tell. My job remains the same:

Work to get a senator to contest so that the Dems get practice fighting for what is right and so that we have a chance of getting at the truth some day.

Work to inform my fellow citizens because the truth of this 'election' may just motivate the people who may have to enact election reform from the ground-up -- county-by-county (like California counties who have instant run-off voting and like states that have started really controlling money used for elections (and are getting more people of color in office).

'No one here but us chickens' -- so we'll have to figure out how to do it on our own. If someone swoops in to help at some point - neat!

On edit: Spelling

:kick:

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PaganPreacher Donating Member (653 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-28-04 03:25 PM
Response to Reply #54
56. I like to think of myself as sensible...
but....

I do pro bono work for an attorney who volunteers her time on civil liberties cases. Most of the time, we are like (a very attractive, redheaded) Don Quixote and (an older, not-at-all-good-looking and more world-weary) Sancho Panza.



The Pagan Preacher
I don't turn the other cheek (and I don't have red hair).
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PaganPreacher Donating Member (653 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-28-04 03:29 PM
Response to Reply #54
58. Just read your last paragraph.....
You know, the only things that swoop down on chickens are hawks.



The Pagan Preacher
I don't turn the other cheek.

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IndyOp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-28-04 03:36 PM
Response to Reply #58
60. The only things that swoop are hawks -- yeah, yeah! :-) (n/t)
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PaganPreacher Donating Member (653 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-28-04 03:41 PM
Response to Reply #60
62. To tell the truth....
I just wanted an excuse to post that Foghorn Leghorn picture.



The Pagan Preacher
I don't turn the other cheek.
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dalloway Donating Member (744 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-28-04 11:50 AM
Response to Original message
14. people here should read article from this thread
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fooj Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-28-04 11:53 AM
Response to Original message
15. Well said!!!
JK has our back...I'm sure of it! Let's not forget who we are dealing with here...desperate times call for desperate measures!
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4_TN_TITANS Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-28-04 12:12 PM
Response to Original message
19. I voted for Kerry in the primaries
and I seriously doubt any of the other Dem contenders could have gotten near the margin of national votes that he did. He's an honorable and wise man and would still make an excellent president. Things could have been handled better by the campaign, but I don't blame Kerry for that. If anybody deserves to have their heads served on a platter it's Cahill, Shrum, and McAuliffe...
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marcologico Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-28-04 12:30 PM
Response to Reply #19
25. right, it was a tricky campaign and they did a good job fighting a
GOP propaganda machine that is well-oiled, well-funded, and completely ruthless, or to put it less kindly racist, not to mention indifferent to questions of legality and fairness.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-28-04 12:28 PM
Response to Original message
24. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
wendypan Donating Member (29 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-28-04 01:01 PM
Response to Reply #24
37. Deleted message
That guy/girl's message that was deleted was totally wrong. and I can refute him. I remember Viet Nam and the young Americans dying in the thousands. Every night on T.V. the reporters would report from the field. Twenty, thirty, fifty, sixty, a hundred a night. Night after night. year after year.

You don't need John Kerry to tell that war atrocities took place. Most G.I.s were NOT involved in war crimes. But that war did funny things to a lot of guys' heads. And war crimes were committed but a number of Americans. A dirty ugly secret that Kerry crossed our country to methodically uncovered. And why? Not to discredit our armed services. But to protect others from going over there and falling into the same bloodthirsty trap.

And what is this revisionist history of Communism? Does that poster (freep) really think that by staying in that hideous war we would have stopped communism? What planet does he live on? Obviously he was not alive at the time. That war swallowed more bodies than advanced democracy.

No matter how idealistic or well-meaninged people are to want to stop communism or want to stop terrorism. You can't get around reality. The reality is you cannot force democracy at the point of a gun.
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seito Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-28-04 01:10 PM
Response to Reply #37
42. Thanks wendypan
What a wonderful first post. I really appreciate your perspective.

"The reality is you cannot force democracy at the point of a gun."

It seems that some history lessons we are condemned to learn over and over again.

Welcome to DU :hi:
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IndyOp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-28-04 03:25 PM
Response to Reply #37
57. Iraq is currently doing funny things to a lot of guys' heads...
Edited on Tue Dec-28-04 03:29 PM by IndyOp
I read an article months and months ago in which the wife of a man who had just returned from Iraq was told NOT to call the military 'social workers' just because her husband woke up in the middle of the night screaming and threatening her -- she was told not to call unless he was holding a knife on her.

The troops -- and all of the people who love them -- are going to pay for *'s stupidity for decades to come.

By the way - if anyone reading this thread thinks the Vietnam War was about Communism - watch "Fog of War" - Robert McNamara met in the 1990's with the man who had been his equal in South Vietnam during the war. McNamara explained why the US did what it did. The South Vietnamese representative took him down: "Didn't you ever read the history books? Do you not know that we have been fighting the Chinese since as long as we have been a country? Do you not understand that we were engaged in a Civil War?" I admire McNamara for being as honest as he was in the film.

What finally made me really understand that the North Vietnamese were not 'communist' enemies was Zinn's 'Peoples History of the United States." The North Vietnamese leader apparently worshiped many elements of US democracy -- so much so that he began the North Vietnam constitution with "We the people, in order to form a more perfect union..."

Countries that have been labeled 'commie' by the US are countries that don't want to do whatever US corporations want: give up their national resources without adequate repayment, allow their people to be used or killed, allow their government to be controlled by outside forces.

:grr:
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seito Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-28-04 12:31 PM
Response to Original message
26. No Kerry Bashing Here
He is an American Hero Period.

He was in 1968, he has been throughout his political career, and he will be for years to come. HE IS ON OUR SIDE, whether it is as POTUS, or the Junior Senator from Mass.

I will not speculate on 2008, but I will say that John Kerry has and will continue to honor every promise he has made. I do not need to see him on TV to know he is fighting with me.

I believe that this is going to be a long hard fight, but I also believe that we are up for it. Try as they might, they will not demoralize me. There is far to much at stake

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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-28-04 12:35 PM
Response to Original message
28. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
saracat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-28-04 12:45 PM
Response to Reply #28
32. You are disruptive and wrong on every major point of history. I marched
against the Vietnam War as well and have great admiration for the young John Kerry . He was right then and he is probably right now. Your "historical points" are analyzed through your twisted filter. You are not" shedding light " on anything. I do not reach the same conclusions as you.I lived it . I am proud of resistence to the war. I am proud that Kerry voted against Deserty Storm. No blood for oil!
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seito Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-28-04 12:55 PM
Response to Reply #32
35. Doesn't take them long eh?
Bye Mr. History :hi:
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whometense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-28-04 12:57 PM
Response to Reply #32
36. Yeah!!!
I go back to VVAW too, and could not agree more.

Kerry is a man of integrity and honor. Period.
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Walt Starr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-28-04 12:35 PM
Original message
January 6 is the telling point
If he gets up and challenges the election, he's got our back. Anything short of that and he was blowing steam out his ass.
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The Night Owl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-28-04 12:35 PM
Response to Original message
29. Increased visibility won't help Kerry now and may even hurt him.
Edited on Tue Dec-28-04 12:39 PM by The Night Owl
We all know that the media is not on Kerry's side. The media would eat Kerry alive ala Gore if he were to call a press conference to unconcede.

The only way election fraud will be proven is by keeping the wheels of justice turning. A very public fight will serve only to make judges skittish.

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Pacifist Patriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-28-04 12:43 PM
Response to Original message
30. I'll use this opportunity to make this observation.
I've seen speculation about whether or not John Kerry should be the senator to stand up and contest on January 6. I've given that a lot of thought and recognize what a terribly difficult decision that can be. There are consequences to standing up or remaining silent. To me it comes down to the role he is required to assume on that date. He is no longer a presidential candidate and he never relinquished his seat in the Senate. Therefore he is representing the people of Massachusetts as their senator and has an obligation to behave as such. I think he should let the political chips fall where they may and contest the election. Highly unlikely, but that's my opinion. This country has weathered constitutional crises before, we can do it again.
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IndyOp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-28-04 03:13 PM
Response to Reply #30
55. I think the fact that he is not in charge of the process by
which electoral college votes are accepted (as Gore was) means that he has more latitude in his actions. He does not have to ask other Senators not to contest to show that he isn't a sore loser. He can stand up and contest on behalf of the citizens of Massachusetts as their Senator -- then, again, Kennedy could powerfully represent the state, too. I hope that other Senators will stand so that Kerry does not have to -- it would look self-serving no matter what he says about the reasons for his action.

My measure of Kerry will be whether he is eventually revealed to have done what is necessary to bring the truth about the election fraud crooks to light -- this may take a long time to come to light.

I wish Edwards had not had to relinquish his seat in the Senate. :cry:
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oc2002 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-28-04 01:09 PM
Response to Original message
40. Kerry is a gutless 'FLIP FLOPPER', the GOP pegged him dead on.

And I voted for the son of a bitch.

I thought he was a fighter, but no. He IS a flip-flopper.

If he had taken a stance like the Ukrain chalanger, he would of won.

No guts, no glory.
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seito Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-28-04 01:16 PM
Response to Reply #40
43. Just like Gore won huh?
Gore was down by 500, not 137,000. Gore did not even get a complete recount. What we have now is a gotcha on the cover up and a real hope of exposing criminal activities dating back to 2000.

Flip flopper, I think not. Take the RW talking points elsewhere.
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ginnyinWI Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-28-04 01:40 PM
Response to Reply #43
47. I think that JK is looking at it realistically,
and going with the idea that it will take years to sort this all out and bring it to light, and that without solid proof of fraud, his presidency, even if he were to somehow get in, wouldn't have a mandate from the people. (Much as WE would love to see him in the White House!)
Unless some huge break comes down, that's the way it's gotta be. He undoubtedly knows that to leave things as they are now will ensure another fraudulent election next time, so these allegations must be chased down. But it takes so long to litigate it. Prevention would have been better, but they changed their tactics this time.

On the plus side, this next term of the BoyKing's going to be really, really damaging to the Republican party! So Dems can be comforted by that. It's amazing how the far right wing has been able to commandeer the whole GOP--well maybe not so amazing, knowing what they do about election rigging.
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oc2002 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-28-04 04:09 PM
Response to Reply #43
65. yeah, I voted for Kerry, I must be a RW nut...

Your right on one thing, its not entirely fair to blame Kerry.

It The entire Democratic party leadership, they are completely incompetant, lazy, bunch of dumb shits this country has ever seen run a national campaign.

There was soo much material to brand the GOP and Bush a bunch of war mongering big spenders and economic disasters, joblessnes in Ohio is huge!

whatever..they suck.
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-28-04 03:37 PM
Response to Reply #40
61. Bush/BFEE is behind the "Ukraine challenger". They controlled the media
story on THAT, as well.

The dilemma for ALL Democrats is that the GOP controls most of the media and most of the voting machines. End of story. No democracy till those two issues are exposed and resolved.
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molly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-28-04 04:08 PM
Response to Reply #40
64. How would you be fighting a different fight?
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garybeck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-28-04 01:53 PM
Response to Original message
49. my 3 cents... still giving Kerry the benefit of the doubt
It's been tough to see the lack of initiative on the Dems and Kerry. It's hard to figure it out. One explanation is that they're working behind the scenes. another is they just don't care.

I think we have to be patient for a little longer to get more of a clear idea of what's going on.

If nothing happens on January 6th, and Kerry never publically recognizes the problems with the election, then I think the criticism is warranted at that point.

They can't excuse themselves by saying there's not enough evidence, or by pretending they're out of the loop and didn't know all the facts.

The fact remains, there were bills in congress on paperless voting for the last 2 years. They should be well aware of Diebold, ESS, and the problems.

Like many here at DU we came to our conclusions just by paying attention and looking for facts. If they are so detached that they didn't know about Diebold then there is a real problem.

I still have my fingers crossed. Howard Dean obviously knows something about this becuase he went on TV with Bev Harris before the election. But he's been part of the silence since 11/2.

At this point it's still a mystery. If it turns out that they are working on it and they are going to try to do something about it, then they deserve our support and praise.

But if it turns out that they are going to sit back and let it happen and do nothing, they deserve our criticism.
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Darkhawk32 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-28-04 01:58 PM
Response to Reply #49
51. More than criticism.... they will need to be ousted one at a time.
It'll be obvious we need new blood.
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saracat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-28-04 03:52 PM
Response to Reply #49
63. I agree with you. This is mostly unknown as yet.
I hope Deans silence isn't due to Bev's "nothing accomplished"!
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Kelvin Mace Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-28-04 11:11 PM
Response to Reply #63
69. No it is due
to most folks now rejecting ALL Bev's findings after she discredited herself.

David Allen
www.thoughtcrimes.org
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saracat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-29-04 02:06 AM
Response to Reply #69
71. Well, I was trying to be subtle. I do hope people like Dean haven't been
driven off by Bev's discrediting herself. That would be truly bad. I don't care what she does to herself but I am concerned what she may have done to negatively impact the credibility of election fraud.
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pacalo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-28-04 02:04 PM
Response to Original message
52. Excellent, impressive post!
However, I believe that whatever Kerry is doing is for all the right reasons. I believe in this man with all my heart.

I direct anyone who feels otherwise to the following thread to read OldLeftyLawyer's posts. They're very enlightening, smart, & legally insightful about what's probably going on. Read, enjoy, & have faith:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=203&topic_id=196204

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vitoria Donating Member (18 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-28-04 03:30 PM
Response to Original message
59. Kerry's voting record - need help
How can I get a copy of Kerry's voting record?

A repuk relative made a smart-a quip at the dining table on Christmas Day saying Kerry never voted. I'd like evidence to send him to the contrary.

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oc2002 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-28-04 04:16 PM
Response to Reply #59
66. voted?

just do yourself a favor, and next time just plug that relative with the facts that since Bush started this war in Iraq, for no reason, we have lost more than a thousand American soldiers, ten thousand wounded, and maybe a million Iraqi are now dead.

Whats that not more important than one vote?

Just tell that relative to blow it out his arse. Some people can not be reasoned with. No point in wasting your time, they do not care what you think why should you care what they think.
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vitoria Donating Member (18 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-28-04 05:02 PM
Response to Reply #66
68. I meant his Senate vote - he implied Kerry never showed up to vote
But I agree he's hopeless and I shouldn't waste my time trying to convince someone whose mind will never change. He's a cop in Columbus and grew up pretty poor. I just don't get it.
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lonestarnot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-28-04 11:15 PM
Response to Original message
70. I know that what ever he is doing he is doing for the good of the
country in his own way. He promised the votes would be counted and they will be. He was a prosecutor, he knows what he needs to win any legal action he may or may not step into, so he has my vote of confidence.
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