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Truman01 Donating Member (733 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-22-04 08:03 PM
Original message
A lawyers interpretation of what the Ruling on Arnebeck's suit
means. Some were asking what this ruling means. I posted on mostly-lurkings thread, but I put enough work into it that I wanted to give it a thread of it's own. here is the link for the ruling and my bare bones analysis with the relevant sections of law attached. This is not meant as any legal advice to anyone, simply my analysis.

Here is the ruling itself:

http://www.sconet.state.oh.us/rod/newpdf/0/2004/2004-ohio-6995.pdf

Again I'm not barred in Ohio so my answer is excepted for that.

From what I read, Arnbeck filed a Rule Nisi request for a hearing in chambers prior to the period set to have briefs filed for several requests.

Rule Nisi is a special provision by which attorneys can ask that the court bypass the normal time constraints and have a hearing out of order because failure to do so in a timely manner will render the subject matter moot, and shall do irreprairable harm to the movant.

The judge's rulings in order basically mean the following:

1. No special time provisions will be granted because he doesn't find them necessary in the interests of Justice.

2. All other motions will be handled under the normal time and other provisions of the court rules.

3. The Judge asked sui sponte (without being promted) that the parties each file their opinion on the two questions proposed by 12/28. Then he took the unusual step of allowing a rebuttal response by January 3, 2005. (If you read the normal rules rebuttal responses are not allowed.)

Believe it or not the judge is giving the appearance of being quite fair. He is asking that each side give their opinion on whether this lawsuit is void/moot because of not being filed by December 7th the federal safe harbor deadline (law with emphasis below). Secondly he asked their opinion on what would happen if this lawsuit went past Jan 6th.

He is basically establishing with the first question if this issue is still ripe for discussion and if he still has jurisdiction. With the second, he is establishing that if he does have jurisdiction does January 6th make all questions moot then?

My guess is that he is going to rule that any change to the electors whether by the legislature or judiciary must be done by December 7th because of the 3 USC 5 passage below See the underlined portion.

You make your own mind up.

TC

I included the relevant sections of law quoted by the judge in the Order.

S.CT.Proc.R XIV(4)(a)(b)(c)
Section 4. Motions; responses

(A) Unless otherwise prohibited by these rules, an
application for an order or other relief shall be made by
filing a motion for the order or relief. The motion shall
state with particularity the grounds on which it is based. A
motion to stay a lower court's decision pending appeal shall
include relevant information regarding bond and be
accompanied by a copy of the lower court's decision and any
applicable opinion.

(B) If a party files a motion with the Supreme Court, any
other party may file a memorandum opposing the motion within
10 days from the date the motion is filed, unless otherwise
provided in these rules. A reply to a memorandum opposing a
motion shall not be filed by the moving party. The Clerk
shall refuse to file a reply to a memorandum opposing a
motion, and motions to waive this rule are prohibited and
shall not be filed.


(C) The Supreme Court may act upon a motion before the
deadline for filing a memorandum opposing the motion if the
motion is for a procedural order, including an extension of
time to file a merit brief, or if the motion requests
emergency relief and the interests of justice warrant
immediate consideration by the Supreme Court. Any party
adversely affected by the action of the Supreme Court may
file a motion to vacate the action.


3 U.S.C. § 5. Determination of Controversy as to Appointment of Electors.

If any State shall have provided, by laws enacted prior to the day fixed for the appointment of the electors, for its final determination of any controversy or contest concerning the appointment of all or any of the electors of such State, by judicial or other methods or procedures, and such determination shall have been made at least six days before the time fixed for the meeting of the electors, such determination made pursuant to such law so existing on said day, and made at least six days prior to said
time of meeting of the electors, shall be conclusive, and shall govern in the counting of the electoral votes as provided in the Constitution, and as hereinafter regulated, so far as the ascertainment of the electors appointed by such State is concerned.

(June 25, 1948, ch. 644, 62 Stat. 673.)


3 U.S.C. § 7. Meeting and Vote of Electors.

The electors of President and Vice President of each State shall meet and give their votes on the first Monday after the second Wednesday in December next following their appointment at such place in each State as the legislature of such State shall direct.

(June 25, 1948, ch. 644, 62 Stat. 673.)
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Karenca Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-22-04 08:05 PM
Response to Original message
1. so, Truman
do we have a chance or are we already totally fucked?
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SueZhope Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-22-04 08:08 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. thanks Karenca
This is an excellent question
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CaptainCorc Donating Member (131 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-22-04 08:08 PM
Response to Reply #1
3. ...pursuant to subsection A, paragraph 2. :)
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GetTheRightVote Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-22-04 08:10 PM
Response to Reply #1
4. It looks like the judge is going to drag it out too so no Justice

I hope this does not happen but I am ready to march on Capital, Jan to seek justice on its steps if need be with many of my fellow marchers by my side ...........
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Truman01 Donating Member (733 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-22-04 08:42 PM
Response to Reply #4
22. See post 11
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Truman01 Donating Member (733 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-22-04 08:10 PM
Response to Reply #1
5. In my opinion the Ohio supreme court has no jurisdiction
because of the safe harbor provision of 3 USC sec 5 which requires that all changes to the electors whether judicial or legislative be before Dec 7.

In my opinion Congress has the ball now.

TC
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regularjoe Donating Member (358 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-22-04 08:13 PM
Response to Reply #5
7. What about the U.S. Supreme Court? n/t
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Truman01 Donating Member (733 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-22-04 08:31 PM
Response to Reply #7
13. See post 11
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Doctor O Donating Member (222 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-22-04 08:16 PM
Response to Reply #5
8. In your opinion had Arnebeck not delayed his filing until the 12th of
of Dec, and had not tried to be fancy in consolidating the filing against Bush and Moyer, his case would have had a much better shot?

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Truman01 Donating Member (733 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-22-04 08:29 PM
Response to Reply #8
11. I'm not going to criticize Arnebeck because I wasn't in on the
preparation of the suit and I don't know what challenges they faced or whether they were being "fancy" or "cute" in filing the combined suit. No offence to your question.

But my cursory reading of the safe harbor law and the background I had in Florida tells me that the Constitution gives states the right to appoint electors and they must have those electors in accordance with federal law. So the law gives states until six days before the first tuesday after the second wednesday of December or some horseshit like that to get it right. After that any dispute becomes a federal issue.

Gore v Bush in the USSC made it quite clear that the safe harbor provision was a hard line and that once the electors meet and vote, the only body with jurisdiction over those votes is Congress.

Once Ohio Certified that vote and they cast their vote, only Congress can nullify it.

TC
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Amy6627 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-22-04 09:42 PM
Response to Reply #11
45. Can you speculate on why Arnebeck waited so long to file? n/t
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Truman01 Donating Member (733 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-22-04 09:52 PM
Response to Reply #45
49. I was told in another answer....
That Arnebeck made a speech in Ohio that said they were getting together plaintiffs from each type of voting so that they would have a representative for each challenge.

TC
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zann725 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-23-04 12:01 PM
Response to Reply #45
100. It's my impression that he waited so that the Complaint would technically
be filed BEFORE Electoral Vote, but not DECIDED ON (possibly rejected) by the Court at the time of actual vote. My understanding was that LEGALLY the Electoral Vote was NOT allowed to proceed if an Action had been filed (and NOT resolved) regarding the Election Recount. I think Bonifaz of Vot. Rights Inst. stated this on numerous occasions...that any seating of Electors before this Recount was resolved was ILLEGAL.

Which I think explains Blackwell's blatant lie on Electoral Vote day...which he said (paraphrased), 'If someone wanted to stop the EV, they needed to file a Complaint before now, and NO suit has been filed at this time.'
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merh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-23-04 01:18 AM
Response to Reply #11
66. Gore v. Bush specifically states that it is not to cited as
precedent. The court specifically held that it was ruling on the Florida election of 2000 and only the issues involved.
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righteous1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-23-04 09:01 AM
Response to Reply #66
83. Scotus said no precident should be set ....wink wink
There is no court in the land who would go against that ruling formal precident or not
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electropop Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-23-04 11:17 AM
Response to Reply #83
92. SCOTUS will go against their own non-precedent
if it benefits their Rethug cronies.
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merh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-23-04 12:02 PM
Response to Reply #83
102. You know, I question some people's motives and loyalties
especially those that are always so negative. :shrug:

Scotus will not cite it's own case that it specifically said is not precedent and no lower court will either (except to say it is not precedent).
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IndyOp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-22-04 08:17 PM
Response to Reply #5
9. The Ohio Supreme Court has no jurisdiction only because he won't
hear the suit and rule immediately. Based on my (admittedly incomplete) understanding of Arnebeck's estimate of 130,656 votes having been moved from Kerry to Bush -- it would take less than an hour to present that most important part of the case. If he ruled now he could still replace the Ohio slate of electors, couldn't he?

:(

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Doctor O Donating Member (222 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-22-04 08:21 PM
Response to Reply #9
10. Truman will certainly correct me, but based on reading the above,
no he can not even if he heard the case today. I also do not believe that any state or US Supreme Court Justice would hear this case on short order and certainly not without discovery on both sides.
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Truman01 Donating Member (733 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-22-04 08:31 PM
Response to Reply #9
14. see post 11
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Vidar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-23-04 08:49 AM
Response to Reply #1
82. Thanks for taking the time.
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Doctor O Donating Member (222 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-22-04 08:11 PM
Response to Original message
6. So basically he is saying that
I did not find enough reason to hear the case based on the filing and my reading of the laws, but I am going to be fair and give you a chance to persuade me I am wrong, before i dismiss this filing.
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Truman01 Donating Member (733 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-22-04 08:31 PM
Response to Reply #6
12. No I don't think so.
He is saying that he didn't find any reason to act expeditiously outside of the normal time frames which require an answer by the parties by December 28th anyway. If it had been filed on December 2nd there might be a different issue.

TC
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Samantha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-22-04 08:32 PM
Response to Original message
15. I have already made up my mind
The Safe Harbor law was passed in the days of the Pony Express. States did not deliver the votes of their slates of electors in a timely manner (didn't get the horse out of the stable soon enough to deliver the votes before the Electoral College votes were counted). The delivery of the votes before the Safe Harbor date guarantees the votes of the electors will be counted. After that, no guarantee.

As we all know, those days of the Pony Express are not these days. The fact of the matter is states have habitually delivered their electoral votes after that deadline, and the votes have in fact been counted. Ohio law dictates that the Electors will be chosen by the result of the popular vote. Should it be proven Kerry won the popular vote, and given the fact the conduct of an election is a states-right issue, not a Federal one, the State of Ohio must allow a Democratic slate of electors to vote or it will violate its own state constitution. Beyond that, it cannot change that law after the date of election without violating the Federal Constitution. (Read Boies, Courting Justice, Bush v. Gore, for an authoritative legal opinion on this subject).

As the Florida Supreme Court said in the first sentence of its 2000 opinion, "the right to vote is paramount." To thwart that right in subservience to an antiquated law enacted during the days of the Pony Express is beyond the Democratic pale. This is a legal no brainer.

That being said, of course, the win-at-all costs Republicans will use any technicality to thwart the will of the people. The question is, will we allow them to prevail.

Thank you for your legal expertise and sharing it with us. I hope you look at my non-legal opinion in the spirit with which I post it, not as a put-down of the law. I am simply advocating ALL THE LAWS must be taken into consideration, not just one or two, but above all else, the spirit of the law with which it was written, and the goal it was attempting to achieve, must not obliterate the essence of a democratic government. Elevating the Safe Harbor provisions to a level of supremacy over the citizens will does exactly that. Ignoring the law of the State Constitution of Ohio, written by the legislature to eliminate any controversy over the manner in which its slate is chose, does exactly that. Ignoring that state constitution to wave the Safe Harbor flag is a travesty as well as a violation of the U.S. Constitution. Obscuring the fact that the right to vote is paramount ignores the law and promotes thefts of elections in a democratic society.
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Truman01 Donating Member (733 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-22-04 08:38 PM
Response to Reply #15
18. I don't take offense at all. In fact your response is what they
will probably argue. While the states certainly don't have to deliver their votes by the safe harbor date, the federal government does not "have" to accept controversies after that date.

I'm not arguing that there isn't a venue to challenge the vote, unfortuately, I'm arguing that the venue is Congress.

TC
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Samantha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-22-04 08:57 PM
Response to Reply #18
26. I agree with you the venue is Congress
We saw what happened when in 2000 a citizen filed a lawsuit in Texas challenging Cheney's right to run with Bush* since both were legal residents of Texas. The judge accepted the case and stalled until after the two Texans were inaugurated. Probably that's the intent in Ohio, stall, stall, stall.

Jonathan Turley sets the drop dead deadline at January 20, and I believe he is correct. The way we stop this from happening, the inauguration, is to substantiate the fraud claim, and dare any Congressman, Senator or House Rep, to ignore it. When Arnebeck said the third ingredient to this challenge is the court of public opinion, and I would like to add that of the world, he was entirely correct.

And to reduce simply what I was trying to say above is that when one attempts to look at the simple letter of the law (the Safe Harbor provision), as opposed to the spirit of the law (for instance, the Civil Rights Act of 1965), in a maneuver to thwart the will of the people, civil disobedience results. We cannot live in a civilized society while a minority of the people thwart the will of the majority. That's what the Republicans did in 2000 and are attempting to do again in 2004.
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dogindia Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-22-04 09:02 PM
Response to Reply #26
27. TY Sam.
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Truman01 Donating Member (733 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-22-04 09:18 PM
Response to Reply #26
32. Of course if we can provide proof of fraud it would delegitimize
the Presidency so much that * would probably be forced to resign. Whether it is done before January 20th or not though I'm not certain that Kerry would be given the Presidency. I know you don't like the idea of the letter of the law, but I have a hard time imagining what the procedure would be to unravel the EC vote and to reconsitute it.

I know that is not the popular answer. I suppose that even after Jan 6 a Congressional challenge might be had to change the result, but there doesn't seem to be any foundation for it at all.


TC
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Samantha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-22-04 09:39 PM
Response to Reply #32
43. Jonathan Turley also addressed this issue
If fraud is proven before the inauguration, no Supreme Court judge would swear the president-elect into office (I am not sure if Turley remembers Renquist and Thomas). That oath of office is literally everything. If fraud is proven AFTER the oath, the president cannot be removed simply for that. One must prove he or she had literal proof of the fraud personally in order for removal. (I believe that would be next to impossible to achieve with Bush*). After the oath (and barring literal proof of first-hand knowledge of the theft of the election), the ordinary means of removing Bush* would apply, literal impeachment for high crimes and misdemeanors.

I didn't mean to suggest I do not like letters of laws. I do not think our founding fathers intended for the letters to trump the spirit, and that's what that ancient Safe Harbor provision does to the right of people to vote. It's that Republican mentality that the letter of that antiquated law obliterates the right of people to vote and to have that vote counted which incenses me.
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prosecutr1960 Donating Member (21 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-22-04 09:49 PM
Response to Reply #18
47. question
I'm only a prosecutor with no experience with election law, but I asked around the DA's office and people here are very impressed with Truman01's interpretation. Good job, from Fl!! One question everybody here has, why didn't Arnebeck file his suit before December 7th????? He had the same information then that he does now, right. We're going to do a LexisNexis search on Arnebeck. I'm getting a bad feeling about him. Hopefully, I'm only overreacting.
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understandinglife Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-22-04 08:35 PM
Response to Original message
16. "If any State shall have provided..."
Edited on Wed Dec-22-04 08:35 PM by understandinglife
Truman01, thank you for your post.

Simple question -- does the quote from 3 U.S.C. § 5 (June 25, 1948, ch. 644, 62 Stat. 673): "If any State shall have provided..." hold for Ohio.

In other words, is Ohio State Law in accordance with 3 U.S.C. § 5 , or has Mr Arnebeck and Bonifaz uncovered an inconsistency in Ohio state law with this Federal statute, and that is at the basis of why they filed when the did?

I have no reason to think that they were not fully aware of 3 U.S.C. § 5 (June 25, 1948, ch. 644, 62 Stat. 673) and I do not think they are 'being fancy' or whatever.

Thanks.
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Truman01 Donating Member (733 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-22-04 08:39 PM
Response to Reply #16
19. I'm not entirely sure of your question but the short answer is that
the federal law supercedes the state at this point. The state can decide whatever it wants but the feds do not have to take it into consideration after that date. The problem isn't that there is no place to contest the election the problem is that the venue is the Congress where we are a minority.

TC
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understandinglife Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-22-04 08:53 PM
Response to Reply #19
25. Thank you....
....and, yes, I understand what you've stated. I'm struggling with why the intentional wait until 13 Dec to file, when it was obvious from how quickly they re-filed that they are organized.

As to the -- "Congress where 'we' are a minority" issue -- because the claims that can be made today based on fact are of such severity that it is not hard for me to imagine that some Republican members of the Congress might act in a manner similar to what the Republican WA State SoS did today. We'll see.

On 6 Jan 2005, we are certainly going to have the opportunity to observe whom in the 109th Congress is a traitor to the Constitution and which members defend that Constitution.

Thank you.
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davidgmills Donating Member (651 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-22-04 08:36 PM
Response to Original message
17. I am a lawyer as well
I am also not licensed in Ohio, either.

I concur with what Truman says.

I would add this. The petition appears to be an original proceeding in the Ohio Supreme Court. An original proceeding in any appellate court is a rarity. It means that the lawsuit was filed in the Ohio Supreme Court rather than being filed in a regular trial court. Most states have provisions for original proceedings in their Supreme Courts in very rare cases. This may be one of those rare instances where it is proper to file an original proceeding in the Ohio State Supreme Court. In contrast, the Florida cases in 2000 began in the trial couts, not in the Florida appellate courts.

It appears to me that Arnbeck requested a hearing before the other side would normally have to file their answer to his complaints. Again this is also irregular. Normally, there is a certain amount of time the other side has to respond to a complaint or petition. Arnbeck asked the court to shorten the regular amount of time and the court would not do it.

This is not surprising given the fact that the court probably thinks, by his safe harbor question, that Arnebeck filed his case to late to begin with.

This is a similar problem to what happened in Florida. Most state election laws are designed to cover state elections and not federal ones. There is usually no hurry in a state election contest; therefore the timetables for everything are, to put it bluntly, slow. But when you want to contest a federal presidential election you need a rocket docket to get things done in time for the federal deadline and you are forced to use the turtle process of state court to do it.
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Truman01 Donating Member (733 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-22-04 08:41 PM
Response to Reply #17
21. I imagine on a case of state-wide proportions like this
that the SC must have original jurisdiction but I certainly see what you are saying.

TC
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davidgmills Donating Member (651 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-23-04 07:31 AM
Response to Reply #21
78. Makes sense as to why it would be an original proceeding
Venue would be a problem at the local level.

I have heard that the normal election process in state courts is no the order of eight or nine months in many jurisdictions.
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Doctor O Donating Member (222 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-22-04 08:40 PM
Response to Original message
20. That sounds like the only party who can affect and change
is the Repu controlled Congress.
Thanks for the information Truman01 and David...
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ihelpu2see Donating Member (935 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-22-04 08:43 PM
Response to Original message
23. thanks for the clarification, now
it shows why Blackwell dragged his feet so efficiently and the other court not allowing a quicker Recount... .It all seems that Rove and Blackwell knew how to cover the tracks a aaa bases....

still a sham
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Truman01 Donating Member (733 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-22-04 08:47 PM
Response to Reply #23
24. I'm sure they dragged their feet but I don't understand why we didn't
go ahead and file in November and let the recounts do whatever. We still could have gotten the ball rolling on the fraud and suppression charges.

TC
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roseBudd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-22-04 09:07 PM
Response to Reply #24
28. I heard Arnebeck speak at the Jesse Jackson rally in Cincinnati
also in Columbus, so I forget which place I heard him say this, but I thought I heard him say the delay was because of all the plaintiffs. I got the impression it took awhile to coordinate that aspect.
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Truman01 Donating Member (733 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-22-04 09:12 PM
Response to Reply #28
31. I'll bet, coordinating 20 people to all sign on to a suit can be a pain.
I didn't think it was necessary to file on behalf of all the electors, one would have had standing enough I think. Maybe they were interested in getting a unified front.

TC
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roseBudd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-22-04 09:24 PM
Response to Reply #31
35. They needed plaintiffs for every type of voting in OH, I am on the
OhioVote2004 yahoo group and they immediately asked for volunteers who were willing to be plaintiffs plus since they needed all the kinds, optiscan was the kind they were still needing when a second email went out. Bless the plaintiffs for being willing to put their names on the lawsuit. At the Cincinnati rally they introduced and thanked one of the plaintiffs.
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Truman01 Donating Member (733 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-22-04 09:32 PM
Response to Reply #35
39. That's interesting, I would have thought that
the electors themselves would have had standing to sue. Because the electors would have been the ones that "lost" the election and could have complained of the irregularities. You are saying that the voters are the ones they chose to use as plaintiffs?

TC
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roseBudd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-22-04 09:34 PM
Response to Reply #39
40. Yes, that is why in the complaint the first many pages are all the names
of the plaintiffs. I believe there are 25 plaintiffs. I can find the original email asking for plaintiffs that explained what they needed plaintiffs to do, if you want.
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roseBudd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-22-04 09:37 PM
Response to Reply #40
42. The call for plaintiff volunteers went out on Nov. 20
Here is what it said:

We need a few plaintiffs for the lawsuits that are being filed
concerning
the election.

We need one plaintiff who voted on optical scan in Ohio this November
and
who is worried that their vote may not have been recorded correctly.

We need another plaintiff who voted on a touchscreen machine and who is
worried that their vote may not have been tabulated correctly.

We already have plaintiffs for: punch card, provisional, and absentee
ballots.

If any of you are Republicans and are interested in being a plaintiff,
or
know someone that is, please contact me, XXXXX XXXXX,
XXXXXX@XXXXX.com or XXX-XXX-XXXX. We are trying to find
people
representing various party affiliations.

We also need 25 voters who are willing to be plaintiffs in the lawsuit
for
an election contest that the coalition of nonprofits announced
yesterday.

We still need 2200+ observers for the Green party recount. Sign up at
www.votecobb.org The Democrats have also indicated that they will have
observers. I hope that they will have 2200+ as well. Go to their
website to
sign up: www.ohiodems.org

YOU DO NOT HAVE TO BE AN OHIO RESIDENT TO BE AN OBSERVER FOR THE
RECOUNT
PROCEDURE!

WHAT DOES BEING A PLAINTIFF MEAN? Your name would be in the public as a
person who participated in filing the lawsuit(s). You would have to
give
testimony in a hearing or trial, and/or provide testimony via an
affidavit
or deposition. There would be no financial obligation on your part to
be a
plaintiff in these lawsuits.

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FloridaCrat Donating Member (160 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-23-04 08:45 AM
Response to Reply #24
81. Jon Bonifaz sued to start the recount before Ohio Certified,
he claimed that the Ohio SOS was dragging his feet on certifying and wanted to get started early.

Judge said to wait until results were certified.

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dogindia Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-22-04 09:10 PM
Response to Original message
29. thank you TRU and Dav as well.
Your discussion has been quite helpful and thrilling really.
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Karenca Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-22-04 09:12 PM
Response to Original message
30. so, your answer to my question is
we ARE fucked.

Well, I do apreciate your time----Thank you for explaining.
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Truman01 Donating Member (733 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-22-04 09:20 PM
Response to Reply #30
33. Well I wasn't going to use those words, I tend to only use
those words when I'm not trying to give a legal explaination. But maybe next time I'll try it: Hey your Honor, does that mean, "I'm fucked or what?"

TC
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Karenca Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-22-04 09:23 PM
Response to Reply #33
34. OK, Then, We're screwed, right? eom
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Truman01 Donating Member (733 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-22-04 09:26 PM
Response to Reply #34
36. Hey I was enjoying the look on the judges face.
I believe I prefer saying "were fucked your honor."

TC
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Karenca Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-22-04 09:36 PM
Response to Reply #36
41. Yes!!! I like the sound of that............... nt
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Truman01 Donating Member (733 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-22-04 09:29 PM
Response to Reply #34
38. If you mean.....
Do I think Kerry will be Pres in 2005, yes, I think we are as you put it, fucked.

Do I think we can get a Senator to object to the EC slate? It will be very difficult considering the internal backlash he/she will face. Do I think we should try? YES.

Will we prove fraud and discredit the administration and possibly get * to resign? We have a better chance there.

Do I think any of the above will be easy? NO>
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Samantha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-22-04 09:29 PM
Response to Original message
37. Here is Vincent Bugliosi's interpretation in "The Betrayal of America"
"The bottom line is that nothing is more important in a democracy than the right to vote. Without it there cannot be a democracy....Yet with the election hanging in the balance, the highest court in the land ordered that the valid votes of thousands of Americans not be counted.

"The per curiam opinion noted that under Title 3 of the United States Code, Section 5 (3 USC Section 5), any controversy or contest to determine the selection of electors should be resolved "six days prior to the meeting of he Electoral College," that is, December 12, .... but there is a multiplicity of problems with the Court's oh-so-convenient escape hatch. Writing in the Wall Street Journal, University of Utah law professor Michael McConnell, a legal conservative, pointed out that the December 12 "deadline" is only a deadline "for receiving 'safe harbor' protection for the state's electors (i.e., if a state certifies its electors by that date, Congress can't question them), not a federal deadline that must be met. New York University law professor Larry Kramer observed that if a state does not make that deadline, "nothing happens. The courting could continue.

"Justice Stevens observed in his dissent that 3 USC Section 5 "merely provides rules . . . for Congress to follow when selecting among conflicting slates of electors. They do not prohibit a state from counting...legal votes until a bonafide winner is determined....No one said it better than columnist Thomas Friedman: "The five conservative Justices essentially ruled that the sanctity of dates, even meaningless ones, mattered more than the sanctity of votes, even meaningful ones."

While it is true in 2000, the single set of electors from Florida being chosen and the ability of the state to elect it before the Safe Harbor date was the issue, and the issue here is not the same, the fact remains this language quoted by Bugliosi upholds the position that the safe harbor deadline is not a federal deadline states must met. Thus, as in the case of Ohio, if by a state's own Constitutional language, the party of the slate of electors is dictated by the winner of the popular vote, the Safe Harbor provision does not preclude that state from changing its slate.

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Truman01 Donating Member (733 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-22-04 09:40 PM
Response to Reply #37
44. Yes yes Sam, that was our argument in Gore v. Bush
But as you and Mr. Bugliosi so aptly pointed out,

"The per curium opinion noted that under Title 3 of the United States Code, Section 5 (3 USC Section 5), any controversy or contest to determine the selection of electors should be resolved "six days prior to the meeting of he Electoral College,"

Which this time is December 7. That is the ruling of the Supreme Court on what Federal law states. Justice Stevens argued what we believe to be correct but it was, as you point out, a dissenting opinion.

So, the Ohio Supreme Court which cannot overrule and must abide by the rulings of the Supreme Court on issues of Federal law will have little to do except abide by the per curium rendering.

Only a new ruling by the USSC could over turn that old ruling and now it is precedent. Not to mention that the SAME 9 members of that court are still sitting and they would look quite silly by reversing their ruling which virtually installed * the first time.

Sam, if I may call you that,you are a very bright non-lawyer, but law is pretty plain and ugly sometimes. This is one of those times.

TC
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steelyboo Donating Member (225 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-22-04 09:47 PM
Response to Reply #44
46. lol, I wento law school at Louisville, you would have to say it in court
Edited on Wed Dec-22-04 09:49 PM by steelyboo
Something like "I submit to your honor, to determine whether I, meaning me, and not to be confused with another, am hereby throughly fucked, screwed, humped, porked, diddled, shafted, or otherwise violated." hehe :) (doh meant this as a reply to #36)
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Truman01 Donating Member (733 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-22-04 09:49 PM
Response to Reply #46
48. OMG that is funny......nt
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Samantha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-22-04 10:18 PM
Response to Reply #44
51. Trumad, here are some more words from the per curiam opinion you
say we must be bound by:

"Unbelievably, the Court wrote that its ruling was 'limited to the present circumstances', for the problem of equal protection in election processes generally presents many complexities."

I believe it is not quite legitimate to chose one portion of this opinion one believes the Republicans will apply and ignore the other portion which says it cannot be used in other circumstances. (Excuse me for this below-the-belt hit, Trumad, but that's the Republican way of applying the law.)

I also note in the post I previously submitted, the use of the word "should" as opposed to "must." Any controversy or contest to determine the selection of electors SHOULD be resolved 'six days prior to the meeting of the Electoral College." I believe the use of the word "should" as opposed to "must" leaves the door open to make exceptions for resolving egregious violations of law, such as election fraud.

I do not think anyone promulgating the argument that that Safe Harbor provision (get your Pony Express horse on the road before the Electoral College votes) trumps in the Information Age a citizen's right to vote and the right to have it counted will win many Democratic sympathizers. But I do thank you for starting this thread, because it certainly has made each of us participating re-think what is important to us in the controversy of these election issues and how we must reasonably, legally and rationally legitimize our position.

And you can call me Sam anytime, particularly when you are attempting to convince me I am wrong! Thanks again.
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Truman01 Donating Member (733 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-22-04 11:17 PM
Response to Reply #51
55. For someone who reads so well I would expect you to know my
Edited on Wed Dec-22-04 11:23 PM by Truman01
name is Truman not Trumad. However, as far as the essence of should or must you are correct. As I say, that was part of the argument I helped formulate in the Bush v Gore suit. However, there is no argument of 14th amendment protections in this instant case so your excerpt of the pro curium opinion is good for sound but not on point.

I'm sure that Ohio can argue and disavow it's electors from now until June if they like, but that doesn't mean it will be counted as having been valid for the EC vote. I would imagine that after the EC vote, and certainly after the January 6th certification by congress then the best that we can hope for is to discredit *. I am certain that anything after that date, if it isn't a smoking cannon, will not stop the inauguration no matter how much we want it too.

Now if your wishful thinking is to be ruled on as law maybe I will sit at your feet as a student one day. Until your last post your attitude didn't overshadow your argument and I really respected your thinking.

Once you degenerate the argument into wishful thinking and simple attacks against Repugs (whether true or not) or attacks against me, you might as well be pissing in the wind. Sam you have a great mind, and none of your arguments are wrong, currently they aren't held by the people who hold the power, that doesn't make them wrong.

I do however have an opinion that is a bit more wired for sound since it has been before the powers that be in a court of law. I don't say what people want to hear, I say what I think will happen. This fight will go on, with or without my blessing I'm sure. You need no encouragement from me to keep fighting.

TC
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Samantha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-22-04 11:35 PM
Response to Reply #55
57. I am sorry you read my posts as a personal attack, they weren't intended
to be. So for whatever you took personally, I apologize.

And you are correct I mistyped your name. I realized that after the last post, and didn't go back to edit it. I apologize for that as well.

The problem is you inadvertently hit upon an issue which tremendously bothers me and has for four years. I think my passion on the subject might have been taken personally by you. But if you think about it, the antiquity of that Safe Harbor provision and the willingness to use it today to trump all subsequent laws enacted is sort of like people we hear quoting from the Old Testament who apparently are able to ignore the emergence of principles taught in the New Testament. The willingness of the Republicans to focus on this is scary because when you think about it, that law could be used not only to disenfranchise African-Americans, but women, people who do not own property, or quite frankly, simply anyone who does not vote the way Republicans want them to. That's not the American way.

I feel quite comfortable criticizing Republicans inasmuch as I was one until the Clinton impeachment debacle. I come from a long line of Tennessee conservatives and I realize now the error of my ways. I have no problem since reading the Star Report (I am not sure if his name has one "r" or two, it's late)to criticize that which I was a part of for so many years.

In any event, I hope there are no hard feelings. As a person who originates from Tennessee, I become quite passionate when I sense any wholesale disenfranchisement in the air since I read about the acts of discrimination which transpired in 2000. I am sorry my passion on this subject offended you personally. It wasn't intended to be personal.
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Truman01 Donating Member (733 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-23-04 09:25 AM
Response to Reply #57
84. Its not hard to misinterpret someone's meaning on here
I am not personally upset. I was enjoying our conversation until I thought it was turning bad for no reason. We are on the same side. I like the way you think.

TC
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Truman01 Donating Member (733 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-22-04 11:33 PM
Response to Reply #51
56. In case you would like to read the actual Bush v. Gore opinion
instead of a renditon, here is the ruling part without the individual judges and their writings. I'll supply that too if you wish.


Per Curiam.

I

On December 8, 2000, the Supreme Court of Florida ordered that the
Circuit Court of Leon County tabulate by hand 9,000 ballots in Miami-Dade
County. It also ordered the inclusion in the certified vote totals of
215 votes identified in Palm Beach County and 168 votes identified in
Miami-Dade County for Vice President Albert Gore, Jr., and Senator Joseph
Lieberman, Democratic candidates for President and Vice President. The
State Supreme Court noted that petitioner, George W. Bush asserted
that the net gain for Vice President Gore in Palm Beach County was 176
votes, and directed the Circuit Court to resolve that dispute on remand.
Gore v. Harris, 772 So.2d 1243, 1248, n. 6. The court further held that
relief would require manual recounts in all Florida counties where
so-called "undervotes" had not been subject to manual tabulation. The
court ordered all manual recounts to begin at once. Governor Bush and
Richard Cheney, Republican candidates for President and Vice
President, filed an emergency application for a stay of this mandate.
On December 9, we granted the application, treated the application as a
petition for a writ of certiorari, and granted certiorari. Post, p. 1046.

The proceedings leading to the present controversy are discussed in
some detail in our opinion in Bush v. Palm Beach County Canvassing Bd.,
ante, p. 70 (per curiam) (Bush I). On November 8, 2000, the day
following the Presidential election, the Florida Division of Elections
reported that petitioner, Bush had received 2,909,135 votes,
and respondent, Gore had received 2,907,351 votes, a
margin of
Page 101
1,784 for Governor Bush. Because Governor Bush's margin of victory
was less than "one-half of a percent . . . of the votes cast," an
automatic machine recount was conducted under § 102.141(4) of the
election code, the results of which showed Governor Bush still winning
the race but by a diminished margin. Vice President Gore then sought
manual recounts in Volusia, Palm Beach, Broward, and Miami-Dade
Counties, pursuant to Florida's election protest provisions. Fla. Stat.
Ann. § 102.166 (Supp. 2001). A dispute arose concerning the deadline
for local county canvassing boards to submit their returns to the
Secretary of State (Secretary). The Secretary declined to waive the
November 14 deadline imposed by statute. §§ 102.111, 102.112. The
Florida Supreme Court, however, set the deadline at November 26. We
granted certiorari and vacated the Florida Supreme Court's decision,
finding considerable uncertainty as to the grounds on which it was based.
Bush I, ante, at 78. On December 11, the Florida Supreme Court
issued a decision on remand reinstating that date. Palm Beach County
Canvassing Bd. v. Harris, 772 So.2d 1273, 1290.

On November 26, the Florida Elections Canvassing Commission certified
the results of the election and declared Governor Bush the winner of
Florida's 25 electoral votes. On November 27, Vice President Gore,
pursuant to Florida's contest provisions, filed a complaint in Leon County
Circuit Court contesting the certification. Fla. Stat. Ann. § 102.168
(Supp. 2001). He sought relief pursuant to § 102.168(3)(c), which
provides that "eceipt of a number of illegal votes or rejection of a
number of legal votes sufficient to change or place in doubt the result of
the election" shall be grounds for a contest. The Circuit Court denied
relief, stating that Vice President Gore failed to meet his burden of
proof. He appealed to the First District Court of Appeal, which certified
the matter to the Florida Supreme Court.

Accepting jurisdiction, the Florida Supreme Court affirmed in part and
reversed in part. Gore v. Harris, 772 So.2d 1243
Page 102
(2000). The court held that the Circuit Court had been correct to reject
Vice President Gore's challenge to the results certified in Nassau County
and his challenge to the Palm Beach County Canvassing Board's determination
that 3,300 ballots cast in that county were not, in the statutory phrase,
"legal votes."

The Supreme Court held that Vice President Gore had satisfied his
burden of proof under § 102.168(3)(c) with respect to his challenge
to Miami-Dade County's failure to tabulate, by manual count, 9,000
ballots on which the machines had failed to detect a vote for President
("undervotes"). Id., at 1256. Noting the closeness of the election, the
court explained that "n this record, there can be no question that
there are legal votes within the 9,000 uncounted votes sufficient to
place the results of this election in doubt." Id., at 1261. A
"legal vote," as determined by the Supreme Court, is "one in which there
is a `clear indication of the intent of the voter.'" Id., at
1257. The court therefore ordered a hand recount of the 9,000 ballots in
Miami-Dade County. Observing that the contest provisions vest broad
discretion in the circuit judge to "provide any relief appropriate under
such circumstances," § 102.168(8), the Supreme Court further held
that the Circuit Court could order "the Supervisor of Elections and the
Canvassing Boards, as well as the necessary public officials, in all
counties that have not conducted a manual recount or tabulation of the
undervotes . . . to do so forthwith, said tabulation to take place in the
individual counties where the ballots are located." 772 So.2d 1262.

The Supreme Court also determined that both Palm Beach County and
Miami-Dade County, in their earlier manual recounts, had identified a net
gain of 215 and 168 legal votes for Vice President Gore. Id., at 1260.
Rejecting the Circuit Court's conclusion that Palm Beach County lacked
the authority to include the 215 net votes submitted
Page 103
past the November 26 deadline, the Supreme Court explained that the
deadline was not intended to exclude votes identified after that date
through ongoing manual recounts. As to Miami-Dade County, the court
concluded that although the 168 votes identified were the result of
a partial recount, they were "legal votes could change the
outcome of the election." Ibid. The Supreme Court therefore directed
the Circuit Court to include those totals in the certified results,
subject to resolution of the actual vote total from the Miami-Dade
partial recount.

The petition presents the following questions: whether the Florida
Supreme Court established new standards for resolving Presidential
election contests, thereby violating Art. II, § 1, cl. 2, of the
United States Constitution and failing to comply with 3 U.S.C. § 5,
and whether the use of standardless manual recounts violates the Equal
Protection and Due Process Clauses. With respect to the equal protection
question, we find a violation of the Equal Protection Clause.

II

A

The closeness of this election, and the multitude of legal challenges
which have followed in its wake, have brought into sharp focus a common,
if heretofore unnoticed, phenomenon.Nationwide statistics reveal that an
estimated 2% of ballots cast do not register a vote for President for
whatever reason, including deliberately choosing no candidate at all or
some voter error, such as voting for two candidates or insufficiently
marking a ballot. See Ho, More Than 2M Ballots Uncounted, AP Online
(Nov. 28, 2000); Kelley, Balloting Problems Not Rare But Only in a Very
Close Election Do Mistakes and Mismarking Make a Difference, Omaha
World-Herald (Nov. 15, 2000). In certifying election results, the votes
eligible for inclusion in the certification are the votes meeting the
properly established legal requirements.
Page 104

This case has shown that punchcard balloting machines can produce an
unfortunate number of ballots which are not punched in a clean, complete
way by the voter. After the current counting, it is likely legislative
bodies nationwide will examine ways to improve the mechanisms and
machinery for voting.

B

The individual citizen has no federal constitutional right to vote for
electors for the President of the United States unless and until the
state legislature chooses a statewide election as the means to implement
its power to appoint members of the electoral college. U.S. Const.,
Art. II, § 1. This is the source for the statement in McPherson v.
Blacker, 146 U.S. 1, 35 (1892), that the state legislature's power to
select the manner for appointing electors is plenary; it may, if it so
chooses, select the electors itself, which indeed was the manner used by
state legislatures in several States for many years after the framing of
our Constitution. Id., at 28-33. History has now favored the voter, and
in each of the several States the citizens themselves vote for
Presidential electors. When the state legislature vests the right to
vote for President in its people, the right to vote as the legislature
has prescribed is fundamental; and one source of its fundamental nature
lies in the equal weight accorded to each vote and the equal dignity owed
to each voter. The State, of course, after granting the franchise in the
special context of Article II, can take back the power to appoint
electors. See id., at 35 ("'here is no doubt of the right of the
legislature to resume the power at any time, for it can neither be taken
away nor abdicated'") (quoting S. Rep. No. 395, 43d Cong., 1st Sess.).

The right to vote is protected in more than the initial allocation of
the franchise. Equal protection applies as well to the manner of its
exercise. Having once granted the right to vote on equal terms, the
State may not, by later arbitrary and disparate treatment, value one
person's vote over that
Page 105
of another. See, e.g., Harper v. Virginia Bd. of
Elections, 383 U.S. 663, 665 (1966) ("nce the franchise is granted to
the electorate, lines may not be drawn which are inconsistent with the
Equal Protection Clause of the Fourteenth Amendment"). It must be
remembered that "the right of suffrage can be denied by a debasement or
dilution of the weight of a citizen's vote just as effectively as by
wholly prohibiting the free exercise of the franchise." Reynolds v.
Sims, 377 U.S. 533, 555 (1964).

There is no difference between the two sides of the present controversy
on these basic propositions. Respondents say that the very purpose of
vindicating the right to vote justifies the recount procedures now at
issue. The question before us, however, is whether the recount
procedures the Florida Supreme Court has adopted are consistent with its
obligation to avoid arbitrary and disparate treatment of the members of
its electorate.

Much of the controversy seems to revolve around ballot cards designed
to be perforated by a stylus but which, either through error or
deliberate omission, have not been perforated with sufficient precision
for a machine to register the perforations. In some cases a piece of the
card — a chad — is hanging, say by two corners. In other
cases there is no separation at all, just an indentation.

The Florida Supreme Court has ordered that the intent of the voter be
discerned from such ballots. For purposes of resolving the equal
protection challenge, it is not necessary to decide whether the Florida
Supreme Court had the authority under the legislative scheme for
resolving election disputes to define what a legal vote is and to mandate
a manual recount implementing that definition. The recount mechanisms
implemented in response to the decisions of the Florida Supreme Court do
not satisfy the minimum requirement for nonarbitrary treatment of voters
necessary to secure the fundamental right. Florida's basic command for
the count of legally cast votes is to consider the "intent of
Page 106
the voter." 772 So.2d, at 1262. This is unobjectionable as an abstract
proposition and a starting principle. The problem inheres in the absence
of specific standards to ensure its equal application. The formulation
of uniform rules to determine intent based on these recurring circumstances
is practicable and, we conclude, necessary.

The law does not refrain from searching for the intent of the actor in
a multitude of circumstances; and in some cases the general command to
ascertain intent is not susceptible to much further refinement. In this
instance, however, the question is not whether to believe a witness but
how to interpret the marks or holes or scratches on an inanimate object,
a piece of cardboard or paper which, it is said, might not have
registered as a vote during the machine count. The factfinder confronts
a thing, not a person. The search for intent can be confined by specific
rules designed to ensure uniform treatment.

The want of those rules here has led to unequal evaluation of ballots
in various respects. See id., at 1267 (Wells, C. J., dissenting) ("Should
a county canvassing board count or not count a `dimpled chad' where the
voter is able to successfully dislodge the chad in every other contest on
that ballot? Here, the county canvassing boards disagree"). As seems to
have been acknowledged at oral argument, the standards for accepting or
rejecting contested ballots might vary not only from county to county but
indeed within a single county from one recount team to another.

The record provides some examples. A monitor inMiami-Dade County
testified at trial that he observed that three members of the county
canvassing board applied different standards in defining a legal vote. 3
Tr. 497, 499 (Dec. 3, 2000). And testimony at trial also revealed that
at least one county changed its evaluative standards during the counting
process. Palm Beach County, for example, began the process with a 1990
guideline which precluded counting completely attached chads, switched to
a rule that considered
Page 107
a vote to be legal if any light could be seen through a chad, changed
back to the 1990 rule, and then abandoned any pretense of a per se
rule, only to have a court order that the county consider dimpled chads
legal. This is not a process with sufficient guarantees of equal treatment.

An early case in our one-person, one-vote jurisprudence arose when a
State accorded arbitrary and disparate treatment to voters in its
different counties. Gray v. Sanders, 372 U.S. 368 (1963). The Court
found a constitutional violation. We relied on these principles in the
context of the Presidential selection process in Moore v. Ogilvie,
394 U.S. 814 (1969), where we invalidated a county-based procedure that
diluted the influence of citizens in larger counties in the nominating
process. There we observed that "he idea that one group can be granted
greater voting strength than another is hostile to the one man, one vote
basis of our representative government." Id., at 819.

The State Supreme Court ratified this uneven treatment. It mandated
that the recount totals from two counties, Miami-Dade and Palm Beach, be
included in the certified total. The court also appeared to hold sub
silentio that the recount totals from Broward County, which were not
completed until after the original November 14 certification by the
Secretary, were to be considered part of the new certified vote
totals even though the county certification was not contested by Vice
President Gore. Yet each of the counties used varying standards to
determine what was a legal vote. Broward County used a more forgiving
standard than Palm Beach County, and uncovered almost three times as many
new votes, a result markedly disproportionate to the difference in
population between the counties.

In addition, the recounts in these three counties were not limited to
so-called undervotes but extended to all of the ballots. The distinction
has real consequences. A manual recount of all ballots identifies not
only those ballots which show no vote but also those which contain more
than one,
Page 108
the so-called overvotes. Neither category will be counted by
the machine. This is not a trivial concern. At oral argument,
respondents estimated there are as many as 110,000 overvotes statewide.
As a result, the citizen whose ballot was not read by a machine because
he failed to vote for a candidate in a way readable by a machine may
still have his vote counted in a manual recount; on the other hand, the
citizen who marks two candidates in a way discernible by the machine will
not have the same opportunity to have his vote count, even if a manual
examination of the ballot would reveal the requisite indicia of intent.
Furthermore, the citizen who marks two candidates, only one of which is
discernible by the machine, will have his vote counted even though it
should have been read as an invalid ballot. The State Supreme Court's
inclusion of vote counts based on these variant standards exemplifies
concerns with the remedial processes that were under way.

That brings the analysis to yet a further equal protection problem.
The votes certified by the court included a partial total from one
county, Miami-Dade. The Florida Supreme Court's decision thus gives no
assurance that the recounts included in a final certification must be
complete. Indeed, it is respondents' submission that it would be
consistent with the rules of the recount procedures to include whatever
partial counts are done by the time of final certification, and we
interpret the Florida Supreme Court's decision to permit this. See 772
So.2d, at 1261-1262, n. 21 (noting "practical difficulties" may control
outcome of election, but certifying partial Miami-Dade total
nonetheless). This accommodation no doubt results from the truncated
contest period established by the Florida Supreme Court in Palm Beach
County Canvassing Bd. v. Harris, at respondents' own urging. The press
of time does not diminish the constitutional concern. A desire for
speed is not a general excuse for ignoring equal protection guarantees.
Page 109

In addition to these difficulties the actual process by which the votes
were to be counted under the Florida Supreme Court's decision raises
further concerns. That order did not specify who would recount the
ballots. The county canvassing boards were forced to pull together ad
hoc teams of judges from various Circuits who had no previous
training in handling and interpreting ballots. Furthermore, while others
were permitted to observe, they were prohibited from objecting during the
recount.

The recount process, in its features here described, is inconsistent
with the minimum procedures necessary to protect the fundamental right of
each voter in the special instance of a statewide recount under the
authority of a single state judicial officer. Our consideration is
limited to the present circumstances, for the problem of equal protection
in election processes generally presents many complexities.

The question before the Court is not whether local entities, in the
exercise of their expertise, may develop different systems for
implementing elections. Instead, we are presented with a situation where
a state court with the power to assure uniformity has ordered a statewide
recount with minimal procedural safeguards. When a court orders a
statewide remedy, there must be at least some assurance that the
rudimentary requirements of equal treatment and fundamental fairness are
satisfied.

Given the Court's assessment that the recount process underway was
probably being conducted in an unconstitutional manner, the Court stayed
the order directing the recount so it could hear this case and render an
expedited decision. The contest provision, as it was mandated by the
State Supreme Court, is not well calculated to sustain the confidence
that all citizens must have in the outcome of elections. The State has
not shown that its procedures include the necessary safeguards. The
problem, for instance, of the estimated 110,000 overvotes has not been
Page 110
addressed, although Chief Justice Wells called attention to the concern
in his dissenting opinion. See 772 So.2d, at 1264, n. 26.

Upon due consideration of the difficulties identified to this point, it
is obvious that the recount cannot be conducted in compliance with the
requirements of equal protection and due process without substantial
additional work. It would require not only the adoption (after
opportunity for argument) of adequate statewide standards for determining
what is a legal vote, and practicable procedures to implement them, but
also orderly judicial review of any disputed matters that might arise. In
addition, the Secretary of State has advised that the recount of only a
portion of the ballots requires that the vote tabulation equipment be used
to screen out undervotes, a function for which the machines were not
designed. If a recount of overvotes were also required, perhaps even a
second screening would be necessary. Use of the equipment for this
purpose, and any new software developed for it, would have to be evaluated
for accuracy by the Secretary, as required by Fla. Stat. Supp. §
101.015 (2001).

The Supreme Court of Florida has said that the legislature intended the
State's electors to "participat fully in the federal electoral
process," as provided in 3 U.S.C. § 5. 772 So.2d, at 1289
see also Palm Beach Canvassing Bd. v. Harris, 772 So.2d 1220, 1237
(Fla. 2000). That statute, in turn, requires that any controversy or
contest that is designed to lead to a conclusive selection of electors be
completed by December 12. That date is upon us, and there is no recount
procedure in place under the State Supreme Court's order that comports
with minimal constitutional standards. Because it is evident that any
recount seeking to meet the December 12 date will be unconstitutional for
the reasons we have discussed, we reverse the judgment of the Supreme
Court of Florida ordering a recount to proceed.
Page 111

Seven Justices of the Court agree that there are constitutional
problems with the recount ordered by the Florida Supreme Court that demand
a remedy. See post, at 6 (Souter, J., dissenting); post, at 2,
(Breyer, J., dissenting). The only disagreement is as to the remedy.
Because the Florida Supreme Court has said that the Florida Legislature
intended to obtain the safe-harbor benefits of 3 U.S.C. § 5, Justice
Breyer's proposed remedy — remanding to the Florida Supreme Court
for its ordering of a constitutionally proper contest until December 18-
contemplates action in violation of the Florida election code, and hence
could not be part of an "appropriate" order authorized by Fla. Stat. Ann.
§ 102.168(8) (Supp. 2001).

* * *

None are more conscious of the vital limits on judicial authority than
are the Members of this Court, and none stand more in admiration of the
Constitution's design to leave the selection of the President to the
people, through their legislatures, and to the political sphere. When
contending parties invoke the process of the courts, however, it becomes
our unsought responsibility to resolve the federal and constitutional
issues the judicial system has been forced to confront.

The judgment of the Supreme Court of Florida is reversed, and the case
is remanded for further proceedings not inconsistent with this opinion.

Pursuant to this Court's Rule 45.2, the Clerk is directed to issue the
mandate in this case forthwith.

It is so ordered.
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SharonRB Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-23-04 11:00 AM
Response to Reply #44
90. Without Rehnquist...
...there would only be 8. If it went that far, we could wind up 4-4, but if O'Connor went our way, which she almost did last time, we'd be in good shape. Bring on the SCOTUS!
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Truman01 Donating Member (733 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-23-04 12:01 PM
Response to Reply #90
101. You never know.... until you try..... nt
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mulethree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-23-04 03:06 AM
Response to Reply #37
75. Thanks Samantha
When I read that safe harbor thing, it kept coming out that the recount was in process on the 6th day, and Ohio laws still allowed lots of time for contesting, so there had been no final determination, so ....... the safe harbor law means nothing in this event.

Dang I hate this "Moot" concept.

If i steal a cow, throw a barbecue and eat it before they catch me, do they drop the case as moot? or do they try me for grand theft bovine and put me in jail?
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Karenca Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-22-04 09:59 PM
Response to Original message
50. READ THIS DU POST FROM THE JOURNALIST,
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Truman01 Donating Member (733 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-22-04 11:03 PM
Response to Reply #50
54. Unless Kerry gets in now to urge Senators to object,......
He is just showboating. It will be good for the cause, but not really meaningful for overturning the election.

TC
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davidgmills Donating Member (651 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-23-04 12:11 AM
Response to Reply #54
58. A more practical approach than litigation; Re-Exit Poll Ohio Now
Here is what I proposed to Truth is All on the DU board yesterday with some edits to fill you in:

TIA:

Your nemises on Mystery Pollster, of course, disagree with your analyses of what the exit polls show and even some who post on DU disagree with you as well.

The fact that there is no scientific, mathematical or statistical consensus on the validity of the exit polls has put the sitaution into a stalemate. It doesn't matter who is right or wrong on the mathematics and statistics at this point, because in order for those of us who might be inclined to take to the streets, a genuine clear and convincing consensus from the scientific, mathematical, and statistical community is needed.

I am a lawyer and have been for 27 years. I look at the situation just like I would if I were appealing a case. In law, there is something called the "harmless error" rule. It is what every lawyer fears who is appealing a case. It assumes there is no such thing as a perfect trial. It essentially says that in order to win on appeal, you must be able to convince the appellate court that there is a really good reason to believe that mistakes or errors made by the judge or jury likely caused the rendition of an improper verdict or decision.

Using this analogy to the present voting situation, if we are to convince the public at large that voting mistakes, error,and/or fraud caused Kerry to lose the election he actually won, we must have a clear and convincing consensus by the mathematical, statistical and scientific communities that such is the case. We simply do not have that now. We face the electoral equivalent of the "harmless error" rule.

But we can quickly fix this problem. I believe such a consensus is possible. How? By re-exit polling Ohio now. I am told by your nemises on Mystery Pollster that it would take the polling of about 16,000 voters in Ohio to achieve the requisite accuracy; such a poll would be so accurate that most scientists, statisticians, and mathematicians could not reasonably disagree with the results. They also believe that such a poll is not that unbearably expensive. I propose using three organizations to do one third of the polling each -- Zogby, Harris, and Gallup -- and have the results of the poll made public immediately.

I have asked MoveOn to help raise the money to fund such a poll. So far, I have not had any response. I believe such a poll would vindicate your work and shut up your critics for good. I believe such a poll is necessary now for the sake of the country and our democracy. Please help me turn this idea into reality.

I would point out that such a widely accepted poll, if it showed Kerry won Ohio, might raise some serious Cain for the electoral college. It would be one hell of a monkeywrench in the electoral machine. It could be done in a week.

If you think this is a good idea, please let's get the ball rolling.

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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-23-04 12:19 AM
Response to Reply #58
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davidgmills Donating Member (651 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-23-04 12:30 AM
Response to Reply #59
61. Not silly at all
You want the judges to give you a recount? Give them a good reason. Not just fraud. Give them a reason to believe that the fraud was bad enough to throw the election.

Judges don't want to waste their time on something that is just an educational exercise. In fact, if they are convinced that the fraud can not be shown to have risen to the level that it could have made a difference in the election, you will get the door slammed in your face in a hurry.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-23-04 12:38 AM
Response to Reply #61
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davidgmills Donating Member (651 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-23-04 12:55 AM
Response to Reply #62
63. The fraud will not be caught by election workers
80% of the votes in America were counted by four companies. No matter how you voted, in all probability your vote was eventually downloaded into a computer. Computers counted the votes. Once in the computer, the fraud occurs. Election officials don't even run the computers and don't know how.

It takes a statistical analysis to prove this kind of fraud. You have to poll a sample of the people who voted, extrapolate the sample to get an indication of how everyone voted and then see if the extrapolation matches the actual votes.

By the way, many of the people who voted, like me for instance, voted on a computer and there was nothing left to count when the computer did not produce a paper indication of how they voted.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-23-04 01:04 AM
Response to Reply #63
64. Deleted message
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davidgmills Donating Member (651 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-23-04 01:31 AM
Response to Reply #64
67. counting ballots
First of all, I don't know if a citizen has the right to just go in and ask to count ballots at this point.

Ballots could be easily lost or destroyed so I doubt it.

There are formalities to go through to count ballots and that is the hold up. These foramlities take time. They run out the clock. I understand that many ballots were ultimately counted in Florida last election, but way too late to get anything accomplished.

My impression is that you are talking months not weeks before a citizen could have access to ballots.

If you are corrrect about Florida this election, (I have my doubts although I know what Bev Harris is doing), the next problem is that even if the ballot counting matches up at the precinct level, in the central computer the number could still be changed and you would not know it until every single precinct was counted. That's about 3 million votes to count in Ohio even if they are all paper ballots. By hand that probably takes months. Don't expect election officials to voluntarily do it. They have other jobs.

I am also not in Ohio. I am in Tennessee.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-23-04 01:42 AM
Response to Reply #67
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davidgmills Donating Member (651 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-23-04 01:48 AM
Response to Reply #68
69. I stand corrected
If you believe this to be true, go count them. Have a shot. I say you have to count them all. I believe there was fraud everywhere and no safe spots.

You are right in one sense, ultimately they have to be recounted to prove fraud.

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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-23-04 01:54 AM
Response to Reply #69
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davidgmills Donating Member (651 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-23-04 07:14 AM
Response to Reply #70
76. Exit polls are the reason we are where we are
My point is that would anyone be questioning the validity of the election if it weren't for the exit polls that showed Kerry to be the winner?

No exit polls, no question. Bush wins.

Counting precincts by hand is an arduous task. And again, if the fraud occurs not at the precinct level and if you do not count them all, how would you know whether there is computer fraud? The numbers could be shifted in the computer and you would have no way to know.

I am told that statistical analysis is the only way to prove this kind of fraud. The polling or counting must be randomly done for statistical analysis to work. If it is done by cherypicking precincts, then you have a phenomonon called clustering which greatly increases the margin of error.

When I talk about widespread fraud, I have in mind it being done precint by precinct, at the central computer.

Let's say Precint #10, for example, shows 520 votes for Kerry and 490 votes for Bush. The computer flips the numbers only when it is counting all six million votes. Hand counting won't catch this 30 vote error because it doesn't exist except in the virtual world.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-23-04 12:03 PM
Response to Reply #76
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-23-04 02:17 AM
Response to Reply #69
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davidgmills Donating Member (651 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-23-04 07:21 AM
Response to Reply #72
77. This might work
But even random selection of precincts still might produce a clustering effect and increase the margins of error to levels that cause disagreement about the validity of the process.

But maybe 3% produces a high enough sample to still keep the MOE quite low.

My other problem is whether it would get done soon enough to do any good. If six months from now it got completed, would anyone care enough to do anything at that point?
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jkd Donating Member (151 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-23-04 10:23 AM
Response to Reply #77
89. If your purpose is to bump the pres., your probably right.
The independent recount in Florida 2000 made Gore the winner, but not many people took notice. It probably didn't help that 9/11 had just taken place and that the nation's focus was directed there.

Too conclusively show that it happened again, might be too much for the electorate to dismiss this time.
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davidgmills Donating Member (651 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-23-04 11:12 AM
Response to Reply #89
91. What's the option when Bush has been in office nine months
It is much harder to get someone out of office than to prevent them from getting there in the first place.

Could we do a recall like California at that point?

I am not sure you could do that.

He would not get impeached and he might not resign.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-23-04 12:05 PM
Response to Reply #91
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davidgmills Donating Member (651 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-23-04 04:02 PM
Response to Reply #105
111. purpose is both
I would say it is not too late until Bush takes the oath
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-23-04 04:34 PM
Response to Reply #111
112. Deleted message
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Bill Bored Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-23-04 02:22 AM
Response to Reply #63
73. This is exactly why
I (another non-lawyer) think that the citizens should sue every state and DC to force them to prove that every vote counts as cast.

Before you laugh me out of the court, please consider that if the machine code is proprietary and there is no paper trail and the auditing procedures to use it, there can be no reasonable certainty that every vote is counted as cast. The state is therefore negligent and is violating the right to vote, or by extension the right to have the vote counted.

The process of discovery will either lead to the release and expert inspection of the machines, the software and the security precautions taken against hacking, and/or to laws that will preclude the possibility of vote tampering by mandating:
1) the voter-verified paper trail and
2) enough randomly selected mandatory manual recounts (audits) to use such a trail to prove that the tabulated results are correct with a reasonable degree of certainty.
This is not the case in many states today and it is the whole basis for the election fraud argument. (Voter suppression and registration fraud, are of course real but separate issues.)

Since there are so many learned lawyers reading this thread, will someone tell me why this can't be done, or better yet that it can be done?

Please assume that the premise is true i.e., that presently there can be no reasonable certainly that the votes are being counted correctly as cast. If this can be shown, why can't the burden of proof be put on the states to come up with a remedy for future elections -- not in terms of election contests, etc., but in terms of fixing the system and proving that every vote counts, thus ensuring the right to vote for every popularly elected office or ballot initiative, including the electors for President.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-23-04 03:04 AM
Response to Reply #73
74. Deleted message
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Bill Bored Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-23-04 01:58 PM
Response to Reply #74
109. Thanks for the opinion but...
This makes sense to me, with the exception of non-paper trail states. And in the case of OHIO, is the trail voter-verified, or is it just a printout of what's in the machines' memory?

Assuming it is a bona fide trail of voter intent, I think there's still a problem that might be litigated:

What you are suggesting is that we the people, in order to count the votes with reasonable certainty, have to do the state's job, which our tax dollars have already paid for. Why is the onus not the state to do the job correctly in the first place?

What you are suggesting is tantamount to using 100% paper ballots, manually counted in the first place. That is of course a possible solution in the long run, but there are some knowledgeable, well intentioned people, such as Congressman Jerry Nadler, who claim that paper ballots are also subject to tampering, etc.

I agree that there are some "sunshine" laws in some states where this sort of recount is possible, but is it possible in all 50 states and in DC? Either way, you are putting the onus on the electorate to prove that the count was right and this is unacceptable to me.

Note that I am NOT just talking about THIS election, but all future elections. Would you have the people recount the votes by hand each time from now on? And how will this be done in time to challenge the electoral vote, etc? It's not a bad idea, but it's just not possible to do it on a large scale in a timely manner.

I'd love to see more comments on this though. Counsellors?
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-23-04 02:10 PM
Response to Reply #109
110. Deleted message
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Bill Bored Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-23-04 09:28 PM
Response to Reply #110
113. The ATM Analogy is Imprecise
If the ATM (the bank) provides me with a receipt, that's my proof of the transaction. The onus was placed on the bank to prove that the transaction took place, and the bank responded. The bank knows my identity so the transaction between the bank and me is not done in secret, but my vote is secret and not even the state itself is allowed to know it if I don't want them too.

In either case, the receipt is legal proof of what the machine has done. But in the case of the voter-verified paper trail, because of the secrecy of the ballot, all the voters must anonymously make their "receipts" available to the state for random auditing to ensure that all the votes were counted as cast.

If the receipts, which are really paper copies of the electronic ballot, are given and the auditing takes place, I don't have to count anything, because I know with reasonable certainty that the count was correct. Of course if the election is close enough for the random audit to not detect a fraudulent result, a hand recount of all the receipts can be done. But that would be the exception rather than the rule.

I have nothing against your recount initiative, but the state should be able to prove that the original count was done correctly and IMHO, without the above paper trails, and the proper random auditing procedures, they can not. If the state then makes a claim that the election was free and fair, this alone could be considered fraudulent because they have no way to backup their claim.

Are you an attorney, gulogulo?

You have also not answered my question about exactly what kind of paper trail the DREs in Ohio had. Was it voter-verified?
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Bill Bored Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-23-04 09:55 PM
Response to Reply #74
114. Oh, BTW FL has DREs without voter-verified paper trails
Isn't this what Robert Wexler's lawsuit is about? Those precincts can not be recounted. One court already said the citizens aren't entitled to "perfect" elections, etc., etc.
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hootinholler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-22-04 10:36 PM
Response to Original message
52. My Dumb question is what are the relevant parts...
of the Constitution to 3 U.S.C. § 5.

Doesn't this section merely say that if any controversy is resolved by this date Congress is bound by law to accept it?

-Hoot
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roseBudd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-22-04 10:40 PM
Response to Reply #52
53. The other point of the Arnebeck suit I think was to get Justice Moyer to
recuse himself, which he didn't. but maybe since he didn't that is good too.
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suston96 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-23-04 01:11 AM
Response to Reply #53
65. Drop Dead dates
With all due respect to the estimable Professor Turley and others, I would like to suggest that there is no drop dead date at all.

The Constitution has fixit elements to install someone as Acting President on January 20 who will serve until the turbulence of the prevailing electoral mess has subsided and the legal and constitutional elements of this election have been resolved.

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roenyc Donating Member (824 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-23-04 07:53 AM
Response to Reply #53
80. talk about bias justice
"recuse himself, which he didn't. but maybe since he didn't that is good too."

Yes i have a big problem with this. how the heck can you sue the guy who is sitting on the bench in judgment?

how is this justice? he is named in one of the suits. for one thing.

This might become 2000 all over again and it should not be allowed to happen!

if their is law in this country someone needs to get this law suit to another judge, preferably one who is from mars and non partisan. this is just absolutely nuts. and so transparent as to be disgustingly blatant cheating.
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sundancekid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-23-04 12:19 AM
Response to Original message
60. whatever happened to the common sense "double bind" argument
wherein a voter cannot contest the results of an election or ask for a recount first unless and until the SecState (Blackwell) has certified the vote result -- Blackwell takes his sweet ass time thereby absorbing ALL possible days up to and icluding to 5 pm on the 6th of Dec b4 he certifies; how could anyone thereby file by the safe harbor date of Dec 7th when the protesting voter would first have to ask for a recount??? so then, we ask for a recount, and Blackwell takes more sweet ass time to the limit, namely to the day the EC would meet ...

so, under any reading of due process, when in the hell would a citizen be able to file "timely" in the above catch-22 scenario??? and do you mean to tell us that after ALL the preparation and expertise available that somehow Arnebeck would screw up his timelines????? WTF???
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boi1946 Donating Member (175 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-23-04 02:06 AM
Response to Reply #60
71. Arnebeck tried to file earlier than Dec 7th
and the suit was rejected because the votes had not yet been certified. And they couldn't force Blackwell into certifying before "due date".
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Truman01 Donating Member (733 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-23-04 09:42 AM
Response to Reply #71
86. I don't believe that was the Arnebeck suit.
A suit alleging fraud would have been valid on November 3rd.

TC
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eomer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-23-04 12:04 PM
Response to Reply #86
104. Arnebeck didn't try to file it before the vote was certified...
but he explained that one of the reasons they were waiting to file it was that Ohio law says it is not ripe until the vote is certified.

Apparently they then ended up delaying further for other reasons.
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eomer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-23-04 07:49 AM
Response to Original message
79. Truman,
I didn't see you address the following points (sorry if I missed it somewhere):

1) USSC said that Gore v. Bush was not to be used as a precedent but you seem to say that the OSC is bound by it.

2) Ohio missed the safe harbor date and therefore does not have safe harbor protection for its current set of electors. This has nothing to do with the question of whether Ohio can still designate a second set of electors. It seems to me that they are free to designate a second set after Dec. 7. If they do, the second set will not have safe harbor protection just like the first one doesn't. The US Congress would be free to accept or reject either one. If no second set is designated then the US Congress is free to reject the current one.

I'd appreciate any help in understanding this tangle (and IANAL). Thanks.
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Truman01 Donating Member (733 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-23-04 09:38 AM
Response to Reply #79
85. This is one of the problems when I shoot from the hip....
You are correct,

1. They are bound by the Bush v Gore ruling however, they are working with state law and state law does allow them to contest and recount for sometime.

2. I imagine, as I said before, that that ohio could select a new slate of electors in February if they wanted to, but the federal process happened on December 13th and was solidified on January 6th.

This is why the J. Moyer is asking the two pronged question: What effect does filing after Dec 7th have and what effect would it have if we went beyond Jan 6th.

The key element that we are missing here is that we have not demonstrated fraud. We have alleged it, Arnebeck has alleged it but I have not seen the evidence for it. I suspect the evidence is not that solid, if it were we could get it into the msm and public opinion is where this battle would be won.

TC
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Doctor O Donating Member (222 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-23-04 09:55 AM
Response to Reply #85
87. There has been much speculation that the discrepancies
in the exit polls compared to the actual, vote plus the abnormalities in the voting for OSSC Justice between Moyer and Connally, are all the hard evidence that is needed to prove fraud. However, you state in this post that we have not demonstrated fraud.

TC, what is your opinion of the evidence based on these types of statistical analysis and what how would a court view this in making their determinations as to whether fraud actually occurred or not?

But from all I have read (though certainly not everything posted or written) is that there is much suspicion that fraud took place, but very little hard evidence to date.

Also what happens if a number of these claims prove to be machine malfunctions or unstable code.

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roseBudd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-23-04 11:32 AM
Response to Reply #87
93. Evidence of fraud in OH punch card counties
With so much attention to BBV, many never paused to consider how fraud in punch card counties could be accomplished. Punch cards are considered to be a strong deterrent to tabulation fraud because the punch cards are evidence and because there is an assumption that chain of command and seals will indicate whether punch cards have been tampered with. However since the chances of a full hand recount are so slim, committing tabulation fraud in punch card counties is relatively safe. Further cover up of tabulation fraud would entail swapping ballots to match the results created by the tabulation fraud.

Anyone who has watched heist movies knows that there are always ways to pull off larceny and it is my belief that ballots aren't gold bouillon and are rarely so secure as to be impossible to switch. Apparently there is legacy equipment called a card punch (see http://cardamation.com) that presumably could be programmed to punch ballots so that the results of all races would match the tallies after the Kerry punched ballots were replaced with Bush punched ballots.

If machine punched ballots are suspected the question might be do the ballots differ from hand (stylus) punched ballots? And are machine punched ballots free of voter's fingerprints.

So forensically I believe it is possible to prove fraud using ballots as evidence IF the ballots can be compelled to be examined.
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Truman01 Donating Member (733 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-23-04 11:37 AM
Response to Reply #87
94. Since you asked for my speculation here it is....
the statistical differences between the exit polls and the count is like seeing smoke, you know there is probably a fire, or a steam source, but you are NOT proving that there is a nefarious fire about.

Stats rarely PROVE anything they point to things. There are so many assumptions that go behind polling that it is not proof. Further we only have the reporting of the exit polling not the polling itself. If we had the actual exit polling, and had Warren Mitofsky claiming that the discrepancy was pointing to fraud it would be evidence, but not proof.

With your next statement you hit a very unpopular nail on the head: "there is much suspicion that fraud took place, but very little hard evidence to date." To the faithful, there is plenty of evidence. To a neutral court there are good questions but no proof. You have a crime, theories on how it could have been committed, motive but nothing hard.

The real problem is that those are good explanations for what happened and we can't prove differently yet.

TC
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roseBudd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-23-04 11:47 AM
Response to Reply #94
96. Check out my posts about the punch card themselves and see what u think
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eomer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-23-04 10:03 AM
Response to Reply #85
88. But...
"...but the federal process happened on December 13th and was solidified on January 6th."

It's not solidified as far as I can see. A second set of electors designated by Ohio before Jan 6 would have exactly the same standing before the US Congress as the first set. Neither would have benefit of the safe harbor; either one could be accepted or rejected.

And I agree that it would take hard evidence of fraud for any of this to be relevant. I'm of the opinion that it will be found, either before or after Jan 6.
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Truman01 Donating Member (733 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-23-04 11:53 AM
Response to Reply #88
97. I meant to say will be solidified on Jan 6th. nt
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eomer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-23-04 11:55 AM
Response to Reply #97
98. Thanks, now that I look again...
I see that's what you said.
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roseBudd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-23-04 11:39 AM
Response to Reply #85
95. Would this be evidence of fraud?
If Arnebeck can compell the counties to allow the punch card ballots to be examined forensically for evidence of having been machine punched, or from a different batch (not made by Dayton Legal Blank) or lacking voter finger prints, would that be evidence of fraud?

Could a county allow Arnebeck to examine a Triad tabulator assuming the counties own rather than rent the equipment from Triad?
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Truman01 Donating Member (733 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-23-04 11:59 AM
Response to Reply #95
99. Sure this would be evidence. It would be up to the evidence
and the trier of fact to say how strong and whether or not it proves fraud but it certainly would be admissible and reachable.

TC
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roseBudd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-23-04 12:10 PM
Response to Reply #99
106. There have been reports from recount volunteers in OH on very
questionable chain of command issues with ballots. Including Greene County (Xenia home of Triad) BoE being found unlocked on Sat. Dec. 11 by recount volunteers. From the affidavit there is strong evidence that what was seen by recount volunteer witnesses was that unknown individuals were inside of the unlocked BoE as lights were observed turning on and off.
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Truman01 Donating Member (733 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-23-04 12:17 PM
Response to Reply #106
107. Ok what does that prove? That someone was in the Boe
and turned lights on and off. Janitor? Person who forgot something that day? We have no proof from that to indicate that the ballots were tampered with. Where they locked up?

TC
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roseBudd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-23-04 12:22 PM
Response to Reply #107
108. No, they were in the basement, recount volunteers saw the ballots
when they entered the unlocked building. BoE of course claims ballots were locked up. BoE claims someone forgot to lock the doors when leaving on Friday.

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