WE got scooped people, gay marriage was the issue that

[hangloose]

motivated the Bush base out in high numbers, the dem's missed the message, and so did I. And another thing, the ma with God on his shoulder (Bush) had very a simple short message and he was repetitive. Kerry had a much more complex, intellectual message. We live in a society when the majority of Americans are simple folk. They can’t follow a complex stream of thoughts and don’t trust someone who elevates the discourse.

[KingChicken]

1. I agree, most Americans could be replaced by well trained monkeys

[Cronus Protagonist]

28. Why would they need training?

It seems to me that an untrained monkey would do just as well.

We ship same or next day by first class mail - Show your support for the president, wear a FUCK BUSH button!

http://brainbuttons.com/home.asp?stashid=13

[Sparkle]

2. It could be. Four of my relatives from Florida voted * because of the gay

marriage thingy. My niece called and told me. I thought WTF does that have to do with the presidency? Pentacostal morons!

[venus]

9. "Pentacostal morons". See how you guys are.

Always name calling but never looking in the mirror.

[mitchum]

60. But Pentecostals ARE morons...

it's too bad that more of them don't take up the serpents

Could you explain just how Pentecostals are NOT morons?

[jmaier]

73. Pentecostals are not snake-handlers

I'm raised WV Pentecostal. It's conservative but no more so than many protestant sects. My family, sadly conservative voters, are considerate, hardworking, generous and yet support Bush. Why -- it is a simple equation that blends religion and patriotism. In essence, though intelligent, they have an instinctive emotional attratction to patriarchy.

Those siren songs reach them viscerally even when they follow and even agree with specific arguments vis a vis upper class tax rollbacks, mismanagement of Iraq, etc.

Just a mild counterpoint. We simply aren't going to soften their opposition to our candidates by belitting anyone's heartfelt beliefs.

[rkc3]

16. This might piss a few of you off, but...

I remember a movie about George Wallace. When he lost his first run he swore at his handlers that he was outn****red by his opponent and it would never happen again. He would run a race that would make him more racist than his opponent therefore securing victory.

bush out-scared, out-abortioned, out-homophobed, and out-NRA'd Kerry in this election. And while he threw people out of his tent, he made it look like Kerry was the bad guy.

It's plain and simple. Look at the red states - in the northeast we laugh at these hillbillies and can't imagine how they make it to the front door each day. But it's plain and simple - their votes count as much as mine do and bush tapped into what's important to them and carried the country.

[BillZBubb]

3. It was hard to miss what they were up to re gay marriage.

Rove is smart. He is vile, but he is smart.

Agree on your assessment of the message. Kerry had too many themes and very, very poor sound bites to support them. I had hoped that the public was serious enough this year to actually try to listen. How naive of me!

One day we will learn from the Repugs about the power of simple language oft repeated.

[AP]

7. Gavin Newsom passed Rove the puck. Rove slipped it past the goalie.

Of course, Rove was inside the crease and interfering with the goalie, but the counted it as a goal.

[bklyncowgirl]

33. Most of us could not believe that this would be such an issue

We were wrong.

[Eurobabe]

55. exactly what my yellowdog dem dad said,

rove is a genius. methinks the fucker gets too much credit. his days are numbered. 666. HAHA!!!!!

[byronm]

4. It starts with our children

Teach them to be independant and thinkers and they will grow up with liberal values.

Don't make the issues black and white when we know there is tons of grey area.

[FlaGranny]

11. Also teach them to speak

in black and white to those who only understand black and white.

[Name removed]

5. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[KennedyGuy]

10. well Venus...

How can I say this politely.....Fuck You

[Upfront]

15. Say that if you want

but I think it is the main reason we lost. I have a fine young man that lives across the road from me who is in serious danger of losing his job because of shipping our jobs out of country. When I tried for his vote he was locked in, the gay thing was his issue. I do not give a rat shit what gay people do, but most people do, face facts please. The gay issues lost this election. Happy draft people.

[Southpaw Bookworm]

17. So what do we do?

Round up all the gay people in camps to make the bigots happy, so that the Dems can win an election?

[KennedyGuy]

18. So should we allow them to force you

to change to their religion if they wish? Lets just get rid of "those" people. lets not speak up so long as we win. Sorry but I don't buy it. People said the same thing about the Jews in Nazi Germany.

[knight_of_the_star]

70. Question for you

Do you believe in dying for your principles or selling your soul for victory? If you say the latter then I want nothing to do with you. Churchill could have taken the easy way out of WWII and made a peace treaty with Hitler, FDR could have refrained from declaring an embargo of oil and iron against the Japanese, George Washington, Patrick Henry, and Ben Franklin could have said, "There are other ways to protect our rights than violence."

If in victory you become the enemy, have you really won?

[FlaGranny]

12. Geez, their own selfish needs?

You mean health insurance and the right to visit their partner in the hospital and other selfish things like that? Survivor's rights? How selfish of them that they should want what everyone else takes for granted.

Edit: I need to edit this and qualify the health insurance statement. Everyone does not take that for granted. Me, for instance. I have none because the only kind I could get had a price tag of $1000 a month.

[lizzieforkerry]

34. I think Venus was saying that the right

had their own selfish needs, not the gays IMHO

[sr_pacifica]

38. She wasn't---read it again. "They didn't care for Kerry...." n/t

[sr_pacifica]

36. Get a grip

You sound like a fucking nazi.

[sffreeways]

48. Go fuck yourself

jerkoff

[mlawson]

69. ???? If I remember the election of 1992 correctly

Bill Clinton, at least once, promised to end discriminiation against gays in the military. And this issue was dicussed more then than it was in this past campaign cycyle. Yet, Clinton was easily elected twice.

The 'gay issue' did NOT lose it for Kerry! What nonsense. The election was plainly stolen. Again.

[BlueEyedSon]

Culture/religion/morals trumps economics/jobs

In the red states

[Old and In the Way]

6. Welcome to the Republican States of America!

No worries! No accountability! We're #1! The rest of the world is irrelevant!

Is "Survivor" on tonight?

[City Lights]

8. kkkarl's plan to energize the base worked.

I'm shocked that it worked.

[RPM]

13. Well, lets oppress religious people the same way they oppress gays.

Perhaps I will not serve anyone wearing a cross.

Fuck 'em

[KennedyGuy]

14. Thats the difference...

As a gay person, I could give a shit less wether they agree with me or not as long as they stay out of my face...with these religious freaks, if you do not agree with them, you are bad-wicked-sinful-evil-and must be destroyed.

[hangloose]

24. The post was not meant to malign Gay people or use them as

the goat for the lose we just experienced. My point was taken from a lot to discourse this morning on various sites. So my earlier post wasn't an original thought. I didn't figure it out all by myself, I had help.

The republicans have hijacked the "Moral Discussion" and used Gay Marriage as the "Moral Evil' of this election (your in good company with Iran and Korea) that will overcome us if Kerry was to win.

I don't except this characterization I rebuke it. Live and let live is my motto.

[xxqqqzme]

25. the exact difference

the rethugs R not happy unless they ARE in your face and imposing THEIR morals on everyone else.

I despise these rat bastards.

[Silverhair]

59. What about the religious left?

During the Vietnam War, and the Reagan's Central American adventures of the 80's, the churches of the Christian Left were a major part of the resistance. The Black Civil Rights movement was entirely church based.

If you take that kind of attitude, you are helping destroy the Democratic Party.

[GoddessOfGuinness]

19. I don't care.

Bigotry is wrong. Bigotry is immoral. I'll lose countless elections before I'll shake hands with the "christian" bigots.

Once upon a time, abolition and voting rights for women were issues that motivated the ancestors of Dumbyass' voter base. I will fight them and their narrow-minded beliefs forever if necessary.

[one_true_leroy]

20. no joke...

God, Gays, and Guns. K.I.S.S.

In an country where Donald Trump is a TV star and TV weddings are considered entertainment... you can't set the bar too high.

[lynintenn]

21. I knew that all along

[keith the dem]

22. Jerry Falwell says

First we'll get all those brown skinned arabs...then go after them "limp wristed" homosexuals....start up the ovens!!!
Seriously We must keep our eye on the ball. We must stay united (forget third splinter parties, we don't have a parlimentary system) We must support the old main-line churches that need help in fighting this hatred. The Catholic church must be redirected so they don't make the same mistakes as in pre-world war 2 Germany.

This is very serious..when hatred of gays is considered more of a "moral" issues than lies about war and 100,000 iraqi dead, our country is in bad trouble and can only decline.

[FlaGranny]

53. Did you see that jerk last week (Falwell)?

saying we need to go out and wipe Muslims off the face of the earth? Even my fundy cousin was shocked by that.

[forgethell]

23. You're right about the

issue that dished us, but wrong about Americans. They can follow a comples, nuanced, and intellectual argument. and when they disagree with the message, they ignore it.

It's a bipolar world in the end. Conservatives know that instinctively. That's why they won.

[Divine Discontent]

65. MODERATOR ATTENTION PLEASE

Venus chirps in at the top that how dare the person comment negatively about the pentacostals, then later says that gays are responsible for our loss...


BAR THIS BASTARD.


Thank you,

A God fearing homo

[mitchum]

71. This god denying hetero seconds your request

Venus apparently has no problem with religous loons, but gays are fair game. Hmmm...

[sr_pacifica]

26. Abortion too, stem cell research---fundamentalists were pounded

with gotv for Bush.

[sr_pacifica]

27. And the disturbing thing when you are dealing with Fundamentalist

voters is that you cannot persuade them with logic or reason. Just think Nazi. They live by their own mythology of life.

[agtcovert]

29. Yep...

I got my housemate to vote for Kerry...but only after I convinced her he was worth voting for. She didn't like him because he used "big words."

:eyes:

[Minimus]

30. rove said he was going after the 4 million evangelical who did not vote

in 2000, and the gay marriage issue certainly targeted them. I have heard that churches of all faiths have said that gay marriage is the biggest problem facing this country. IDIOTS!

How in the world is allowing two people express their love and committment to each other an issue?

What about the war? Jobs? Healthcare? Poverty? etc, etc, etc

I know I'm preaching to the choir but I am SO PISSED!:mad: :grr: :argh:

[sr_pacifica]

31. A reminder about people of this mind(?) set...

they very same that sabotaged Clinton. They HATED Bill Clinton for his liberal views of gays/lesbians. He courted the gay/lesbian vote. This one issue represents moral degeneracy. And the idea of moral degeneracy is a old, deep-rooted one. Back in the 20s and earlier, Europe was thought to be a hotbed of degenerate culture by this unsophisticated, puritanical, calvinistic culture.

I know the results show at least half of the country is NOT like this. We are truly divided and there isn't any president that can unite us.

[demgrrrll]

35. I do know someone who was on fire to vote for Bush over this issue

but instead of taking it seriously I persuaded myself that his fervor was an aberration of some sort and not indicative of the general population. I was wrong. These folks fly under the radar because we are not part of their group. My sister in law is probably in heaven because Bush won and gay people will not be allowed to marry. In her fundie mind they are godless sinners who will never see heaven.
If you are not part of a group it is hard to see how driven they could be. Imagine the same people trying to feel as we do about Kerry and his views. It is hard to put yourself in shoes that do not fit.

[hangloose]

37. well then were at an impass the only answer is for progressives

to procreate, have 6 kids per couple and educate them and in 20 years we take back the country. All right then let's get to it!!

[Hello_Kitty]

43. I convinced a co-worker who was on the fence to vote for Kerry

Because I told him that Kerry supported civil unions, but not marriage. That somehow made it ok to vote for Kerry, despite the fact that this guy objected to the war and *'s economic policies.

[Village Idiot]

32. Arbeit macht frei...

welcome to Amerika...or Jesusland - whichever you prefer...

[young_at_heart]

39. Karl Rove is a genius.....he knows what matters to Americans

It's not the economy...it VALUES!

[Southsideirish]

46. He appeals to the worst in Americans and we are always taking

the high road trying to make them be better. They won't.

Did you ever see those photos of the white people lynching some poor black man - did you look at their excited, smiling faces - those are our enemies - freepers and fundies.

[young_at_heart]

58. Makes me want to move far away

[lcooksey]

40. They turned out more voters than we did

And the gay marriage issue is certainly a big reason why. The opinions of young people are dramatically different on this issue, so this issue will soon stop working for them. It's just a question of how big a mess they make of the country between now and then.

[doodlebugs4kerry]

41. My eyes hurt from all the crying ....

:cry::cry::cry::cry::cry::cry:

[Lisaben2619]

42. The LGBT community is just the start, folks.

We are already demonized. People who believe in choice or anything other than non-traditional roles for women (and men) are next. Or those who won't say the "right" prayer in school. This isn't about us. It's about all of us, including mainstream Christians who think they're safe. You must be "born again" or you're next.

[LearnedHand]

76. Unmarried sex:

Don't even THINK about it! It's a sin; it's evil, wrong, dirty. And it's the next ballot initiative to roll downhill. </sarcasm>

[AndyTiedye]

44. So What Now? Do We Have TWO Parties Just for Fundie Xtians?

[President Jesus]

49. No. We hold our ground and fight.

The fundies cannot fight progress and reality forever. This is the height of their power. When they see nothing changing in four years, they will get disillusioned and retreat back under their rocks.

The GOP leadership is simply using these people...they do not have the will to enact any of these backwards social issues.

[LearnedHand]

77. But they've ALREADY enacted them. n/t

[nine30]

45. In a democracy you have to pander to a dumb crowd

Thats what weakens Democracy. Every idiot's vote counts the same way.
You cannot expect an intellectual like kerry to go explain his policies to every hilbilly that lives in a trailer with his guns.

[Silverhair]

62. That attitude causes us to lose.

It is arrogant, condesending, and snobbish. It drive away voters. You are streotyping people who in reality are complex people. In doing that, you drive them away, and the Republicans are happy to have them.

[AndyTiedye]

47. THAT IS WHAT WE ARE SUPPOSED TO THINK

That is the cover story to cover up the theft of the election.
It is particularly Rovian and ingenious because it is designed
to cause the Dems to turn on one of our most dedicated and
loyal constituancies: gay voters.

WE MUST NOT DO THAT!

WE GOT ROBBED! The problem is

[CitySky]

50. agreed.

let's get a voter-verified paper trail in place by 2006. make this our TOP PRIORITY for the next 6 months, and then get in gear for the midterm elections.

please. what does it matter how many hearts & minds we win if Diebold counts the votes?

as to hearts & minds, i have some ideas as a Christian progressive myself. but voting rights first.

[hangloose]

51. So how do we address in a sober manner the Diebold issue?

[LuminousX]

52. Our Version of Guns, God, and Gays

any suggestions?

[Dems Will Win]

54. THE solution is in this thread

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=203x16099

[AngryOldDem]

56. How could we miss the message?

Bush was hammering on the marriage issue, morals, and values for much of the last half of the campaign. Is it any coincidence that there were so many gay marriage amendments on state ballots this year? This was a SURE way to get conservatives and especially conservative Christians out to vote. It was a shrewd strategy.

This has been building for years. Just think of Pat Robertson and the rest of the pseudopreachers who want their agendas to dominate American political discourse. Well, their time just may well have come. Their years of demonizing the left, liberals, and Democrats have led to a virtual one-party state.

Bush spoke in sound bites this entire campaign. He knew the right words to say to light the fire under his base. Wrapped himself up in the flag, God, and the Bible at every turn.

He ran a very cynical campaign -- a strict play to the emotions because the last thing he wanted these people to do was THINK. I can forgive a lot -- but I can't forgive deliberately manipulating people's faith for personal or political gain.

[Silverhair]

57. I repeatedly warned of that in previous postings, and was flamed.

Shortly after the MA SC decision, I began to post warning that this was a dangerous issue for us. I stated that it would take us down to defeat, and gave the reasons why: wedge issue and super-energize the RW base. No one would believe me. Not only did Bush win, but we have lost several senate seats. (Looks like the new senate will be 55/44/1. What happened to all those posters that bragged that we would retake the senate?)

I now make a prediction for the next four years on this issue.

The religious right has delivered this election to the Republicans, and they owe them big time. Look for the Federal Marriage Amendment to be back, and some very conservative SCOTUS appointments, and other conservative legislation.

Some of our senators who will be up for reelection in 06. Some of those are in red territory, and will have endangered seats. If those senators oppose the Republicans, the religious right will target them, likely with success. If you don't believe me, then look at the results of this election in the senate just past. Don't even think that some of our senators won't break party discipline to protect their seats. In 94 we even had a couple of senator change from Dem to Rep. Translation: Don't count on successful Democratic fillibusters of Republican appointments and legislation.

[AngryOldDem]

64. Right on

I posted something similar this morning and was told that Kerry lost because of the voting machines. No, this goes way beyond voting machines, straight to the political ideology of this nation. And it has taken a SEVERE turn to the right. Some just don't want to admit that, and I understand, but this is a reality that we best deal with now.

While waiting for Kerry to appear CNN said that Rhenquist is in "very grave" condition. I take that to mean that there will be a need for an appointment on the SC very soon. At least we'll get an early warning of how bad the next four years will be. And it will be bad for civil rights -- bank on that.

I'm sure not everyone in Congress is comfortable with the one-party system now in place. But you're right -- job security is much more important than standing on principle.

[Carolinian]

61. It's not as simple as gay marriage.

[hangloose]

66. I agree one issue alone is cannot explain the loss, but it is an

importnt element of why we lost.

[hangloose]

67. Since it is my opinion that Bush as served his purpose

it is a matter of time before he is revieled to have a debilitating illness paving the way for BIG Dick to step in. So I am looking for actions we can take to proactivly welcome Dicky to the helm.

I will send 12 pounds of pork chops, gravy on the side.

[TheDonkey]

63. He delivered big on the redneck and bigotted dumbshit population

of this country which seems to be growing.

[feistydem]

68. I wouldn't support a party that divides to conquer. Idealist?

You bet your ass I am!

I owe it to my gay friends not to abandon them just because some hick in Alabama, who probably beats his wife, is a homophobic "Christian" fundamentalist.

The Christian Right is Neither!

[Southpaw Bookworm]

79. Another idealist

I cannot even imagine what may gay friends are thinking today -- it's open season on them. This country's hate has been put out into the open.

[digno dave]

72. DUHHH!!!!!

[KennedyGuy]

74. I just want to say that I'm grateful

for the support given to this issue. I really did not need for DU to become yet another place where a gay american cannot speak his/her views for fear of being ostracized. Thanksto all for showing we are above that. Jon

[LearnedHand]

75. Not only did we MISS the issue...

...we let RoveCo distract us nationally with the Ralph Nader thing. How fucking stupid can we be?

[hangloose]

78. Rove used a slight of hand and turned to debate to Kerry,

the war, strength, resolve, etc....... knowing all along the secular dem's were missing the mark. There were plently of signs that pointed to christian values, conservative morals and religion as important issues but the secular party didn't heed this as a social issues in the public political process and it was their undoing.