A bit of debrief -- 4 moments that doomed us

[TimeToGo]

k, setting aside the possibility of a steal (at least for the moment).

I think there are four pivotal moments in this campaign that doomed us.

1. Swift Boats.

This was very smart and morally bankrupt. It not only took a strong point away from Kerry, it planted doubts. The repubs are all about planting doubts on their opponents. And it deflected the National Guard issue. The media should really be looking at this (follow the money as they used to say) -- the White House and the Bush family are probably up to their eyeballs in this.

2. Rather Gate

Tin foil hat time perhaps, but if I am in the media I would be out investigating the Rove connection here. The story doesn't add up as told. Regardless, it destroys the National Guard story once and for all (even though it didn't really change the story), and allowed people to think of the story as simply a partisan charge. Once again the media failed in their responsibility.

3. Mary Cheney

Here, I don't mean Kerry's comment (though probably not his best moment), but the media and the republican machine's response. Kerry clearly won that debate -- and in that debate he forced Bush to say that he had not said Osama was not important anymore. Bush clearly lied on a matter of some importance (see below). This should have been worth days of talk in the media circus, but no, they talked non-stop about Mary Cheney -- polled on it -- and beat the story to death. Why?

4. OBL Tape

Imagine, if you will, this tape coming out AFTER, a thorough discussion of Bush saying that he thought OBL was through and not that important. Now the focus of the tape would be very clearly on -- here he is -- still active. But, instead it is only on the horse race -- who will this favor in the last few days.

I don't mean that those are the only four turning points -- clearly there are others -- entertainment news, for instance. But, we can't expect to win if the media does the republicans' job for them, and we do nothing.

[Worst Username Ever]

1. What is amazing is that there must be 1000 moments that should

have doomed *.

[TimeToGo]

2. Ain't that the truth

[Dukakis88]

5. That's the truth. Democrat has to be perfect, while media covers for GOP.

It's insane.

[The Jacobin]

3. 1-3 preached to the choir; 4 killed us.

Those who were swayed by 1-3 weren't with us anyway.

The OBL tape just reminded the frightened sheep why they were frightened. That killed us.

[flakey_foont]

4. The image of peabrain

as some sort of upstanding, God-fearing man.....too many people bought that shit

[Chimpeach]

6. #5 Let's ban the Bible

[neverforget]

7. No it was gay marriage issue on the ballot in 11 states. Rove

made the Democrats defend it nationally and the fundies turned out make sure that America hates Gays. In 2006 and 2008, I look for more of this "culture war" bullshit to rile up the fundies to get them to vote for Repukes.

[Dudley_DUright]

10. Including on the ballot in OH

[kegler14]

21. I agree about the gay marriage issue on the ballot.

Brought out scads of people who wouldn't have bothered otherwise. I think this was absolutely pivotal and I think Kerry knew it might be. But he couldn't say it out loud.

So once again the Republicans use hate to get elected.

[tngledwebb]

8. We were doomed

when we let Theft 2000 go through.

[tridim]

9. Diebold and false hope in the pollsters

doomed us. They had 4 years to put a fucking printer on the voting machines and they didn't. Why? Because you can't throw an election with a paper trail.

The exit polls were correct this year, as they were in 2002, 2000 and 1996. Exit polls have always been correct and reliable enough to use them to project winners with 0% of precincts reporting. Northing's changed, except for the honesty of one political party and their machine.

[Old and In the Way]

11. Correcto.

We didn't lose on who has better ideas. We lost because we can't verify the electorate's vote. That is the bottom line. Lurkers who voted for Bush lost too....they just don't know it yet.

[pala1]

12. Also, #5: Kerry's Convention Speech

Talk about lackluster, it had absolutely no energy, no style. That stupid 'reporting for duty' salute was the most memorable part----until the Swifties got hold of it.

[Morning Dew]

14. you should reread that speech, then

It was a great speech and the delivery were'nt half bad either.

[Neecy]

16. I dunno

I thought his speech was fine, but what hurt us the most was our 'feel-good' convention.

We should have hammered Bush on EVERY SINGLE FAILURE in the most ruthless manner possible, and then Kerry could have given a 'what I'll do in the future' speech.

The Repigs showed at their convention you have to hit the other guy hard, and it worked.

[TimeToGo]

13. I agree

that if these swayed people, they weren't with us -- but I was talking about the middle voters.

And, most importantly -- about the media. They failed America.

The gay marriage thing certainly did hurt us -- but . . .

I didn't think Kerry's speech was all that bad -- but they needed to be prepared for the imoral Swift attack.

[tinrobot]

15. #6 Diebold

You can't tell me it's not true.

[Aussie_expat]

17. Don't forget the "Global Test" n/t

.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

18. Bullshit. Bullshit. Bullshit. Bullshit. What doomed us is the fact....

...that the NeoCons have learned how to shift votes and manipulate elections to their benefit.

Period.

None of that other stuff matters in the least.

[glitch]

20. Agreed - although I hate to bump this thread.nt

[zara]

19. horsecrap

talk about superficial analysis

[TimeToGo]

22. How so?

True I am operating on a couple of hours of sleep -- but if my analysis is superficial -- how so?

[nodehopper]

23. no, what doomed us was Diebold and Kerry's yellow belly

[usmail]

24. No way.

As a Navy Vet, I can tell you that we lost the Swiftboat issue by attacking the swifties. Big, big mistake. They weren't motivated by partisanship...not all of them. There isn't a person on this forum who will ever convince me that 200 + vetereans were paid off to take Kerry down and they just happened to include his entire chain of command. Kerry blew it big time by not apologizing to VN vets like Fonda did. If the swifties brought us down, it's because we deserved it.

[TimeToGo]

25. Nope -- don't think you are right there

First, I don't think all your facts are correct
Second, what would he be apologizing for
Third, many of the boaters may have been sincere, but not their leadership
Fourth, this was, I feel strongly, a Rove operation -- planned and planned
Fifth, I am a five-year Navy vet myself, and most of the Navy officers I met were not the brightest guys in the world -- I don't think it would be too difficult to convince them that Kerry was the bad guy. Remember how they first tried to connect him with Fonda?