Campbell: "Four more beers! Four more beers!"

[CanuckAmok]

Yup, a second majority gov't. It panned out the way I thought it would, but I'm amazed Campbell was re-elected. Convicted felon, alcoholic, and even his own party wouldn't let him near a microphone during the campaign, and he still got in!

Just proves my theory that rich people (Point Grey) can still be stupid.

[HEyHEY]

1. Campbell was near mics the whole time

People in Point grey voted for him because Rich people are smart.

Would you vote for the NDP if you were rich?

And besides, it's not like he was ripping off charities.

[arikara]

2. No... he just rips off the poor

and the middle class.

[HEyHEY]

3. Okay. How?

[arikara]

4. You're not serious are you?

Do you live here in BC?

[HEyHEY]

5. Yes I do.... are you serious

I know in what ways I think he's screwed over people. However I also know the ways the NDP has screwed over the poor and middle class. However, I find most people just like to spout the rhetoric. So, how?

[V. Kid]

7. Easily answered...how the Libs screw over middle class folks.

Tax Cut, if you're rich you make a lot more money, and get a lot more back. But giving the tax cut was one thing, once the Liberals got in they forced working and middle class people to pay more for services such as ICBC, Hydro, MSP, tuition, education, health on and on and on. Not to mention cut funding for services that the poor rely on -- leading to a direct link with increased levels of homlessness, property crime, drug usage etc. And frankly most of these people can't just be "given a job" like that, cause they have serious mental problems that prevent them from being employable. So geuss what we see them going through our dumpsters, sleeping on the street, being victims of crime, purpotrating crimes, heck even in "up scale ridings" this is a problem. So basically the little guy has to pay more and get less with this goverment. It's really quite simple.

BTW what is it that the NDP did to literally screw middle class folks the same way? I'd really like to know.

Note: The NDP has won Vancouver-Point Grey before, and areas like Kitsilano are strong for the NDP and to a lesser extent the Greens.

[Spazito]

8. I can give you a few examples....

The regionalization of health care, doing away with local community care, that was started by the NDP

The amalgamation of school districts which resulted in school closures and not funding increased costs that occured because of the process

The closure of institutions for the mentally ill and not putting community support structures in place increasing both homelessness and crime

The waste of millions of middle class taxpayers dollars on the fast ferry fiasco

The allotting of cost plus contracts on their highway projects resulting in skyrocketing costs with no limit to the contractors

Those are some I am aware of, there are others I am sure

[HEyHEY]

10. Let's not forget

How many of the NDP union buddies got free welding lessons out of the fast ferries as well

[V. Kid]

14. All of these things have been repeated by the Liberals...or increased

in intensity such as but the regionalization of health-care....

Same with schools, in fact it, like health-care was accelerated under the Liberals...

The homless issue has exploded under the Liberals, living in Vancouver, this is quite obvious....

I wouldn't bother to defend Fast Ferries, other than point out that BC Rail was sold far far less than what it was worth, to the tune of a billion dollars apparently...so I geuss it's a case of high-profile incomptence vs low-profile incomptence....

As for the contractors, sky-rockting prices etc thing...well, living in the lower mainland, I can assure you that this is something the Liberals have brought up in the extreme...take a look at the Rav Line, Sea to Sky Highway, and other expendutures related to the Olympics...each has been estimated up wards, continiously, with the tax-payers footing the bill...

[Spazito]

15. The key word you use is 'repeated'

You asked what the NDP did to hurt the middle class and I listed them. I did not, in ANY way, say the Libs didn't continue the practice as that was not the question you asked.

In using the word 'repeated', I can assume, then, you agree that the NDP did hurt the middle class when they were in power.

Had you asked how BOTH parties have hurt the poor and middle class I would have cited examples of both.

[V. Kid]

22. Fair enough and I do agree....

...although I suppose the level of a certain action is always important to me. The 90's were the decade of neo-conservatism/neo-liberalism, the fact that they didn't cut things further is quite suprising. Take a look at what the federal goverment did. Heck the Sask NDP's Roy Romanaow levelled alot of cuts too, more than in BC (although he inhereted an almost bankrupt province). In any case I the incomptence of, and two words come to mind here Glen Clark (that Dosanjh really couldn't/didn't do anything about), were what did the BC NDP in.

[V. Kid]

24. One thing I forgot....

...was that Carole James was one of the people, as the former head of the Greater Victoria School Board, fighting against amalgamation of school districts. That was during the NDP term of goverment of course.

[Spazito]

25. Wrong, the BCSTA supported the position of the NDP

on amalgamation while Carole was President. They submitted a paper to the NDP on this issue, I read it and may still have a copy of it. It did not argue against amalgamation, it provided recommendations on how to do it.

Edited to correct typo.

Edited to add:

"A steering committee co-chaired by the Education Ministry and the B.C. School Trustees Association will assist in the restructuring.

The committee will consult on ways to reduce the number of school boards and costs associated with school district administration and "governance," said Charbonneau.

The committee is slated to submit a restructuring plan by April 15, 1996, and amalgamations will be implemented before school board elections in November 1996.

If the committee is unable to propose solutions that achieve his financial and restructuring goals, Charbonneau will implement his plans, resulting in one North Shore school board."

http://www.nsnews.com/oldnews/11289506.html

[V. Kid]

26. No, you're wrong.

I'm talking about Carole James herself. And I'm talking about 1997, and the NDP attempt to amalgamate the school boards the NDP was originally going to cut them down to 37 from 79, she managed to work that down to 60 including one francophone board. Yes there was amalgamation, but clearly 60 boards is a lot better than 37. So clearly she did a good job of protecting as many of them as she could. Take a look at this link:

http://www.canada.com/vancouver/vancouversun/features/bcelection2005/blogndp.html -- Wed, May 10th

James, a Victoria trustee, was the much-respected president of the organization, who had led a fight against the NDP government’s push for school board amalgamation.

-and-

The NDP had planned to reduce school board to 37 from 79, but lobbying by James was key in persuading it to keep 60 boards (including the francophone board).

[Spazito]

27. No, working with the government to reduce the number

of amalgamations is NOT fighting against amalgamation. The quote from the paper is somewhat disingenuous and, no doubt, supplied by her campaign office. Carole James is an honourable woman and may not have been in favour of amalgamation as a trustee but that does not translate into the BCSTA position. The BCSTA did not oppose amalgamation, they worked with government to implement it. The joint task force report will show that in spades.


Edited to add:

To be fair, trying to herd 75 boards (pre-amalgamation) into one cohesive position on a substantive issue is not unlike herding the proverbial cats and, on this issue, it was divisive. Some boards supported amalgamation, usually but not always big boards who were not threatened with it and felt smaller boards were getting more funding per student than was 'fair'. Smaller boards were more vulnerable to it as was shown in the aftermath and therefore ardently against it. For the BCSTA to take a black and white position on it would have been difficult, not impossible, but difficult because of boards in support of amalgamation, again, usually larger boards, would threaten to pull out of the volunteer organization and take the fees they paid with them.

I had to go back and read how we got to this point in our debate and realized this has little to do with my original point that:

the NDP brought in amalgamation of school districts and that hurt small communities.

[V. Kid]

28. It's not disengenous....

...because if a goverment is going to do something that damages a community you can ask yourself a question --- do you want to foam at the mouth and accomplish absolutley nothing in stopping an action you disagree with, or do you want to try to minimize the damage of that action? If all one wants to do is be a useless obstructionist, then very well by all means accomplish nothing. If on the other hand one can actually can protect the citizens that they're elected to represent to the best of their ability, then I will give said person credit -- in this case Carole James.

Besides, I've already agreed that the NDP brought that in, and I've already agreed that she didn't completely stop it. In any case that link you provided wasn't very useful, as it was simply a news story chronicling the fact that yes, as has already been conceded, the NDP introduced said cut. There was absolutley no mention of the James. And yes, I agree, one can't just assume that all these boards (and by extension heads of them) had the same position.

For instance -- in Vancouver (obviously a somewhat diffrent situation) a school board controlled by the left-leaning COPE party has to implment cuts due to funding decisions made by the provincial Liberal goverment, and to be fair the right-leaning NPA party that previously controlled it implmented similar cuts due to decisions made by the Liberals and before them the NDP...it doesn't mean that those school boards should've just said no and then as a result get fired, have the boards be run directly from Victoria by people who are out of touch with the direct needs of the people of their communities. I give both schools boards some credit for working with what little they were given. And therefore I give James credit for working with what she was given.

[Spazito]

29. Here is another report which has comments directly from Carole

"It was a risk for the public to see BCSTA was supporting amalgamation and was assisting the government," said Carole James, president of BCSTA. "We ensured that agendas that were good for public education were on the table."

The public hearings and the report resulted in the government amalgamating to 59 school boards, and increase from the original government proposal of 37 school boards. James considers this a win for BCSTA.

School boards in British Columbia do not have any taxing authority, with 95 per cent of education funding provided by the provincial government and the balance from property taxes. According to James, this funding model has lead to "horrendous difficulties in program needs."


http://www.opsba.org/pubs/fast/arch/1997/fr-jan20.htm


"BCSTA was supporting amalgamation and was assisting the government," said Carole James"

I hope that addresses your concern on the previous article I cited from as per your statement:

" There was absolutley no mention of the James. And yes, I agree, one can't just assume that all these boards (and by extension heads of them) had the same position."

As to whether one should accept what government has said they would do and 'make the best of it', there are times when one should go to the wall on issues and not cave to make the best of a 'bad' situation.

Amalgamation was detrimental to small communities, students within those communities and to say that it is a success in helping to choose which communities should be hurt as a good thing is questionable, imo.


Edited to add: Again, I will repeat, Carole James is an honourable woman and will be a very good leader of the NDP and my posts are in no way to diminish that, they are being posted to disprove the question of whether amalgamation was opposed or supported within the context of what did or did not happen.

In my post on what the NDP did to hurt the poor and the middle class and listed amalgamation, I DID NOT bring Carole James into it at all as she was NOT the issue and I hope we can go back to discussion the NDP's decision to amalgamate and debate whether it was harmful or not as opposed to going down this pathway which doesn't address the issue of harm done by the Clark NDP government in which Carole was not an MLA and, therefore, was not part of the decision by government to amalgamate.

[V. Kid]

31. Well...

...I'd agree that sometimes one can't make any compromises, but again, I wouldn't agree that this was one of those cases.

BTW I do understand that this has nothing to do with the Liberals or NDP doing things to "hurt the middle class". Even though one should remember the fiscal situation at the time, especially with regards to federal transfer payments that only now are being slowly restored.

[HEyHEY]

9. ...

"Not to mention cut funding for services that the poor rely on -- leading to a direct link with increased levels of homlessness, property crime, drug usage etc."
You are aware it was the NDP who implemented the first round of cuts that put the mentally ill on the streets right?

Tuition... here's the NDP screwing the middle class perfectly. They froze tuition, yet didn't increase funding to post-secondary education. So it took many people an extra year to earn a degree. sinking them deeper into the hole, and taking away one year of earning power.

I should add ALL classes of people had to pay higher Hydro and ICBC rates as well as tuition. I'm not aware of any "Rich man's discount card" being handed out. Unfortunatley that stuff has to go up sometimes, in the case of ICBC it is they who set the rates, and they went up plenty during the NDP era.

Let's talk about health. My favourite subject is longterm care beds. Where I live the NDP love to point to the closure of a seniors home and shout "SEE! SEE!" What they don't mention is that the 100 beds home was shut down by the liberals because it didn't meet fire code and even still had absbestos in the ceiling. As well, the rooms were just that... rooms. So, these elderly were put into shit living conditions and kept there during the NDP reign so the NDP could say "Look at all the beds we have for the elderly!"
Now, it's closed and being remodelled, the new rooms are actually mini apartments equipped for seniors living. There will only be 30 spots.. however a new facility with 100 beds is currently being built. SO there is now 130 long term QUALITY beds in the place once the projects are complete.

Now let's talk about the middle class business owner. If you didn't belong to a Union under the NDP - more specifically a public union. Your life was extra hard, the shit economy combined with neglect of the business sector left many small business owners out to dry. Just ask anyone who owns a tourist based small business. The NDP did shit for them... why? Not a union sector.

When you run things to attempt to be popular, and let the economy suffer, you are stealing from everyone in BC.

[V. Kid]

13. First off...

...I know about the mental health issue, and have already said that I'm not impressed with it.

Second: I'm acutally paying tuition right now, so while I'm incurring massive debt, I wouldn't have done this had tuition been allowed to increase in a reasonable way...ie: inflation as opposed to this ridiculous 50% increase per year thing under Campbell. Frankly the NDP handled the issue far better, and they did increase funding to the Universities, it's not like everything was freezed, if you choose to believe the Liberal's promises fine. But let's not forget that they're just that, promises, with no record to back them up.

Third: I never said anything about a "rich man's discount card"...the point is that when people make 2000$ a month, a 50$/month increase for X service, affects them a lot more than someone who makes 8000$ a month..for the person who makes 8000$ a month it's a drop in the bucket, that a masive illconcieved tax cut (btw who cuts taxes on the first day without actually looking at the books? -- that's good management? Ha Ha and Ha). It's the same reason that we don't have a flat tax, those who make more can afford to may more for public services. Therefore we may as well keep those rates as low as possible, and concentrate on fair and progressive taxation.

Fourth: You often accuse me of spouting the NDP line when it comes to the economy, you're doing that very thing with regards to beds. That's exactly what the Liberal party line is, that beds, were closed because they wern't fit for usage, therefore it's not a bad thing that they failed to keep their promise to open 5000 or so beds by 2005. Actually, considering inflation, and other increased costs, the Liberals did not improve health-care, in any fashion. In any case your essentially spouting the Liberal Party line, and really now there's no evidence to back it up.

As for the Union thing yet another perception based on the Liberal Party line. First off 27 of the NDP's candidates, including many elected ones, we're "middle class small buisness people". So to claim that somehow that the NDP's policies destroyed them is hyperbole in the extreme, that completely co-opts the Liberal party line, as obviously 27 people, including many new MLA's would disagree with that. The simple fact of the matter is that goverments, in the liberal-democratic, western world, really can't control the economy that much, so if they take credit or are blamed by their opponents it's really BS. BC isn't Zimbabwe. However; if there are certain goverments that are in the pockets of a certain group, ie: the Liberals via big buisness, then they can have these folks ramble on about how their policies helped the economy etc..and then people seem to think that the Liberals really did do something to help the economy and maybe even themselves. But the real thing people should be asking themselves is if they're better off financially now then they we're before, and according to Stats Can they aren't as apparently their over-all income's are down. And that is bad for the province.

[HEyHEY]

17. encore mon ami!

"if you choose to believe the Liberal's promises fine. But let's not forget that they're just that, promises, with no record to back them up." -
"We made promises we had no intention of keeping" - Corky Evans

The beds thing is true. The NDP left it in such shambles it was impossible to fix. Do you know 80 beds a month would have to be built to reach the NDP "promise" of their projected bed goal in one year? Where does the money and resources for that come from? Nothing to back it up is more of an NDP thing.

If you noticed we were refering to the past NDP government when it comes to unions.. though we have had that argument before.. and know where each of us stand.

RE: Education, the Liberals promises are to raise tuition with inflation - fair enough as long as the money goes back to education. I forgot to consider the drastic rate in which the fees went up, so I'll give you that one.

Keeping rates as low as possible is impossible, where does the money come from to pay for it all? Especially with a groing BC population (now) and the need for more electric infrastructure? It won't come from ultra low power fees.

My main contention is today's NDP backers won't acknowledge the past and that the new party of the NDP isn't much different. And they seem to forget how much of a shithole the province was when the NDP was ousted. Instead they try to blame it all on the libs.

[V. Kid]

23. ....Okay then....

The NDP obviously didn't do that well, since they got their asses handed to them on a platter. What would you like, for them to ask for absolution for the next tweleve years or something? The fact is that when you look at the statistics I gave you this province wasn't a shithole like the Liberals, and their supporters, like to claim it was. In any case in 2001 the NDP had judgement passed on their goverment, it's over. Move on. Clearly they had to spend some time in the penalty box. And since they didn't win on Tuesday, they still are (although it is a bit more difficult to tell as time goes on due to the fact that BC's "free enterprise" coalition is bigger than the "socialist" coalition ). But, really, come now...they aren't the incumbent goverment. The Liberals are! Therefore the Liberals will be held to account. And the way that Liberal supporters like to avoid this is really qutie telling.

The Beds promise thing really isn't difficult to keep if the finances of the province are really doing so well. 80 beds a month...or more corporate tax cuts which who knows maybe the Premier will give us since it helps me so much. In any case this is simply a "who do you believe" thing, and since we're never going to agree on it...might as well leave it.

As for the population thing, must you repeat that? I've provided information that says that BC population has consistently grown during the 90's, it hasn't stoped. I'm not going to pretend that your racist or anything, but just because someone comes from a foreign country, doesn't mean they're any less important then if they come from a diffrent province. The population of this province was continiously growing during the 90's!

http://www.bcstats.gov.bc.ca/data/cen01/c2001hl.htm

The Province

British Columbia was the third fastest growing province in Canada, increasing 4.9% between 1996 and 2001. On May 15, 2001, the population of B.C. was counted as 3,907,738, compared with 3,724,500 in May 1996. B.C.'s population growth was slightly stronger than the national rate of 4.0%. In the previous five year period, B.C.'s population had increased 13.5%, more than double the 5.7% increase in the Canadian population. Between 1996 and 2001, Alberta (10.3%) and Ontario (6.1%) had the strongest population growth among the provinces. Nunavut's population grew by 8.1%.

-And-

The growth due to migration was entirely from international sources, as a large number of people left B.C. for Alberta and only small numbers arrived from other parts of Canada.

-But-

Between 1991 and 1996, a similar number of people had arrived from international sources but there had also been almost as large a net inflow from other parts of the country.

BTW, the fact is that the NDP of now is qutie diffrent from the NDP of the 90's. There were a grand total of *drum roll please* five MLA's from the Glen Clark era re-elected five if you consider his chief of staff (who wasn't an MLA during that time), minus the recount in Vancouver-Burrard (and if the NDP win that race it should be noted that their candidate is on Vancouver City council so clearly the voters of Vancouver don't really care!). Even though I'd still maintain that the media is quite biased in favour of the Liberals, even they recognize that Carole James's NDP is quite new compared with the old NDP...and considering that they did exceed expectation somewhat her mission to "moderate the party" will be easier. I don't know if the same can be said about the Liberals, in fact they'll probably move to the right, after all that's were their base of support in the province is. Let's not forget that the Fraser Valley, and Okanagan, S.Surrey, Langley and Richmond (where the majority of their seats) are clearly centre-right to right politically.

As for electricity, keeping the rates low is one of our advantages as I think electricity in this province was the third cheapest in the country. The lower we keep this, so long as it's relativley clean energy, the better. Obviously it's expensive and difficult to build infastructure, but what is it that Campbell has done other than privitize elements of BC Hydro? There's been a bit of rhetoric on his side, but not much action other than privitization.

[HEyHEY]

11. It's only fair, ways I think the Libs are screwing people

To begin, my pet project, Coalbed methane. The coalbed gas act essential stole the rights from underneath average land owners and gave them to major CBM companies. As well, the new code of practice offers no explaination of how they intend to ensure drinkng water is safe, and make it easy for companies to pull sleazy shit.

The B.C. rail deal. It was a company that made good money for that all-important GR bank account. ANd the liberals "Leased" it for 99 years to CN.

BCGEU, the liberals unfairly fucked them around on what was a modest and fair wage increase, even after the union had been working without a contract for two years in good faith.

Getting rid of the ombudsman's office - yeah gordo, don't give people a way to fight the landlord.

The safe streets act.... it's really more of a kick in the face and an insult than it is effective legislation that will solve anything.

The Buy BC program was sold to a private company and basically doesn't exist anymore... if I was a farmer I'd be dumping pig shit on Campbell's lawn.

[Spazito]

12. Good list re the Libs

I would only add the privatization of B.C. Hydro. They can use whatever phony language they want, it is still, for all intents and purposes, privatized.

[HEyHEY]

19. And also bus passes for seniors - that was slimy

[Spazito]

20. Ahhh, good one! I had forgotten about that disgusting attempt!

That was beyond the pale for sure!

On your point re ripping up existing contracts and imposing new ones, I have friends who work in the health field and what Campbell did was unbelievable, I was shocked and I don't shock easily anymore.

[arikara]

16. Here's how they screwed me personally

they decreased taxes which gave me approx $40 extra a month... while I had a job. They then immediately raised the PST and fees for many necessary things such as MSP, delisted chiropractor, optometrist to name a few. While I was working these increases more than cancelled out the $40 benefit of the tax cut. It was an annoyance when I was working, now that I'm not working, these fees are a hardship.

I'm not even going to get in to the other things he did which don't affect me quite as personally... like lowering the minimum wage, selling off BCRail, privatizing the ferries and parts of hydro, and selling the fast ferries at a flea market price which was even stupider than the NDP's fast ferry fiasco.

I agree that like any government, the NDP did things that I'm not happy with, but the Liberals have done a lot more damage in a far shorter time. Campbell is a neo-con extremist without the added spice of the republican's Jesus.

[HEyHEY]

18. come now he's not an extremist

Socially they're still much more liberal than many cons worldwide.

Isn't the PST back down again though too?

AS well the fuel tax was raised.

[arikara]

21. Just because someone may be marginally better

than someone else doesn't mean that they're a liberal. He only cares about his constituency which is business and the rich. To hell with the environment, the poor, the kids, the seniors, or the working people of this province.

I think we better agree to disagree here. I am never going to like that man or his nasty policies.

[Jack Rabbit]

6. !!

Photo from Wikipedia

[KamaAina]

30. Does this mean he won't be retiring to Maui just yet?

:evilgrin:

Just as well, as I know people over there who have to drive on those roads, which are dangerous enough as it is (narrow, curves, poor lighting, etc.) without "Four more beers!"