Anyone aware of this fucked up shoot out in Northern Alberta?

[HEyHEY]

No article yet, it's all newswire stuff.

But two mounties shot and a hostages taken.

Mounties were raiding a grow-op.

[Lautremont]

1. It's on the CBC site.

A friend of mine had a summer job guarding a huge Alberta grow op once. They gave him a shotgun and everything. Then one night it was raided. He was woken by the commotion and reflexively grabbed the gun, but a moment later sanity prevailed, thankfully, and he walked out with his hands up. He got a few months house arrest, and that was the end of it.

I guess these guys didn't get that far in their thinking.

[rockymountaindem]

2. What's a grow op?

[LdyGuique]

3. Hint: Big green leafy plants grown in greenhouses

[Lautremont]

4. A marijuana farm.

[HEyHEY]

5. Latest report

(Grow-Op-Shooting) (
Alberta's Solicitor-General says at least four R-C-M-P officers aren't responding to their radios after a shooting northwest of Edmonton.
And Harvey Cenaiko says gunfire is continuing.
The shooting happened while the officers were conducting a raid on a marijuana grow operation.
A government spokesperson has confirmed some Mounties were shot -- but the extent of their injuries isn't known.
The shooting happened in Rochford Bridge, about 130-kilometres northwest of Edmonton.

[iverglas]

6. damn

I was hoping you were talking about the shoot-out in southern Saskatchewan that provided so much hilarity on last night's West Wing.

Yet another (following in Law&Order's footsteps) Canadian diplomat dressed in Lester B-style bow tie and speaking in some bizarre mid-Atlantic accent. Fer chrissakes, might they not think it wise to determine how the word "Premier" (as in "Premier of Saskatchewan") is pronounced? Hint: not the way it is apparently pronounced in the name of the US credit card advertised during a commercial shortly afterward. Not "priMYAIR". And no, one does not call the people governed by the Premier of Saskatchewan, or of anywhere else, "his citizens".

But gosh, it was fun watching the fictional Yanks threaten to invade Canada to rescue a bunch of USAmerican yahoos who had crossed the border and trespassed on posted private property with guns, and got a less than hospitable welcome ... . Realism in action.

Since both Law&Order and West Wing get better ratings up here than down there, one wonders what drives their madness.


Anyhow. CBC now:
http://www.cbc.ca/story/canada/national/2005/03/03/alberta-shooting050303.html

MAYERTHORPE, ALTA. - At least two RCMP officers were shot and wounded Thursday during a raid on a marijuana grow operation in northwestern Alberta, according to the provincial solicitor general's office.

"As far as we know there's four officers not responding to their radios, so there is an indication that something is serious here," Solicitor General Harvey Cenaiko told CBC News.

That's fucked up. Or, as the provincial legislature member put it, "very serious and very tragic".

Pot's pleasant enough, but for many years I've declined to provide the demand that draws people to the supply side of the equation who are happy to kill other people to protect the profits my demand creates. Don't buy things made by 12-year-olds for slave wages, don't buy things grown by organized crime either. Not fair on me that I can't get what I want, but that's life.

... Now when are we going to be told the real dirt on that angle of what Basi and his boys were up to in BC? I don't like to think I'm being governed by people who got their money that way either.

[HEyHEY]

7. Just on the wire - four RCMP officers dead

[yvr girl]

11. 2 answers to 2 issues

First, the real shoot-out. This kind of thing is supposed to happen in Canada. It's been over 100 years since we had this many officers go down in an incident.

Second, the West Wing. What kind of accent was that supposed to be? He looked like a cross between Pearson and Churchill. I'd be curious to see the real plan to invade Canada - I bet there is one.

[u4ic]

8. More at

http://www.canada.com/national/story.html?id=6b2b71eb-a39a-44c3-aca4-b447ef808f61

[Swede]

9. Four junior officers? Rookies?

What is going on?

[achtung_circus]

10. Junior officers?

Could mean a couple of things.
Could be that they were constables, i.e. not NCOs, not a watch commander. Might mean newbies, but 3 of the dead were from Mayerthorpe, 1 from Whitecourt, which is the adjacent detachment north and west.

Mayerthorpe has a detachment staff of about 15. Thqat translates to about 3-4 on duty at all times. The odds of having all 3 being newbies are nil.

[iverglas]

13. "officers"

A semantic quibble here. It's actually entirely incorrect (and yet another USAmericanism, and it's been bugging my ass all through the news reports) to refer to non-commissioned members of the RCMP as "officers". Ditto for most other police services in Canada; regular cops are "constables", not "officers". "Junior officers" just makes no sense at all.

RCMP members go by their rank -- e.g. constable -- and, generally, are called "members" of the force.

http://www.canlii.org/ca/sta/r-10/whole.html

Officers

Other officers

6. (1) The officers of the Force, in addition to the Commissioner, shall consist of

(a) Deputy Commissioners,
(b) Assistant Commissioners,
(c) Chief Superintendents,
(d) Superintendents,
(e) Inspectors, ...

Other Members and Supernumerary Special Constables

Appointment and designation

7. (1) The Commissioner may

(a) appoint members of the Force other than officers;
(b) by way of promotion appoint a member other than an officer to a higher rank or level for which there is a vacancy in the establishment of the Force; ...

Ranks and levels

(2) The ranks and levels of members other than officers and the maximum numbers of persons that may be appointed to each rank and level shall be as prescribed by the Treasury Board. ...

I'd expect that the members involved were constables (their names must have been announced by now, but I didn't hear anything on Newsworld before leaving this morning to get some more blood sucked at the lab), but I didn't know, so that's why I've referred to them here, for example, as "members". I think I'll go complain to the CBC about calling them "officers" ...

[HEyHEY]

14. This morning, at a press conference

Another reporter asked the inspector a question about junior officers, he looked at her and said "What do you mean?"

[Mother Jones]

12. Not only a tragedy

But also likely to impede the movement to decriminalize! :(


Why on earth didn't the gunman kill himself and end it there!!!??!

[Ken Burch]

16. He did kill himself.

The question I haven't heard asked about this is, with Canada having really strict gun control laws, how did the guy get that kind of an armory?

[u4ic]

17. He did purchase guns in the US

and snuck them over the border. Whether or not he got all of his guns there, or also purchased on the black market here, isn't clear.

He was forbidden to legally own guns in...2000, I believe.

[Ken Burch]

18. This also raises, then the issue of border security

You'd think Canada Customs would be trained to search thoroughly for guns.

I am mentioning this because I'm sure the right wing in Parliament will use this to argue for the uselessness of the gun control laws(and may already be doing so).

[u4ic]

35. I should have pointed out

this was in the early 90's (when a witness was with him).

[MrPrax]

15. The real tragedy...?

1) it will be news one for days, if not weeks
2) the usual suspects will make the issue 'marijuana' and 'grow ops' must be stopped (the cops were there to investigate a stolen goods complaint and they FOUND the grow op)
3) the usual suspects will demand more cash for 'war on drugs' and more cops
4) the Tories will bring out their talking points on the gun control thing as apparantly the dude had a H&K auto and not some high-powered rifle as was reported
5) the RCMP, as per usual, will become indignant at any suggestion that they're poorly trained, have no local cred in small towns and generally treat the locals as an inconvenience as they put in their mandatory 5 years before they can transfer back to their home province.

In other words, the political agenda will be all red meat for the Righties and little for Progressives to digest...

[applegrove]

19. It seems his assault rifle could easily shoot through body armour.

Any ideas where it came from?

[slackmaster]

20. As could any standard hunting rifle

Hunting rifle ammunition is generally more powerful than assault rifle ammunition.

Still grasping for a "blame the US" straw, are we?

[applegrove]

21. Still hoping your 'norms' do not make it to where I live. Oh - by the

way... Montreal... City of more than 2 Million ... I think around 5 murders so far this year. I think last year we topped off at about 45.

I cannot ignore geography, the transfer of memes from one human to another (teaching ideas & norms) and neither can you.

You of course will tell me that the gun industry should not have to pay for externalities, even if they are regulations. Why regulation externalities would affect the future of the gun industry and its profits that would otherwise multiply exponentially. I'm saying your stock owners would then have the choice of investing in solar panel technology (everyone will have a solar panel one day and perhaps even a whole collection)... and indeed the market will have corrected itself beautifully with those few 'human need inspired' regulations.

And I of course still wonder why the "market" (a thing invented by human beings 10,000 years ago to let them take advantage of efficiencies), is now the solid & sole domain of the corporation (invented 500 years ago to serve humans) and humans who want "public goods" delivered using those efficiencies at the same time as "corporate goods" get bitch slapped and told we are lazy, undisciplined and crossing boundaries we have no business cross.

Those are also norms and memes I do not want to see cross the border into my country. We in Canada like the way humans got better & better and using the market to correct investment tangents & improve the quality of life for many over 10,000 years. You will call me anti-American. Really I'm just human.

Understand that the first butterfly cells to appear withing the caterpillar get destroyed by the caterpillar "what are those?". But pretty soon the waves of butterfly cells are overwhelming, millions of years of evolution kicks in, and the caterpillar turns to mush and a good bunch of meals for the butterfly to eat off of as it develops. The same will happen to corporations. You will turn into Foundations one day with a symbiotic relationship with the humans and the world around you.

Thank you for waking us all up with your Utopian ideals and your hubris. I may not have paid much attention at all... and continued to blindly get a few thousand a year out of the family trust fund. Before all... we are human, even those of us who inherit the role of owners of corporations.

[slackmaster]

22. All that bluster and still no evidence the rifle was ever in the USA

Keep trying.

[applegrove]

23. I cannot tell one of you NRA types from the next. The norms I want

defended from the norms you have in the USA are real and deep and worthwhile.

[HEyHEY]

24. Well the assault rifle sure as hell wasn't made in Canada

[slackmaster]

26. That's as obvious as your bias

Since I'm not an "NRA type".

[applegrove]

27. NRA has made gun - ownership and rights into myth-like religion.

Most Americans are victims of NRA propaganda. You would have to have been living under a rock not to be. Obviously I know nothing about you. But I hear your argument and really, the normal human reaction to "our laws gone wrong or not being followed causing massive death of innocents & peace officers" is to look for answers. The only thing that separates this kook from prison - was an assault rifle. He was better armed than four police officers and took them all out in seconds.

That reminds me of the 'norms' NRA has created in the USA and how afraid we are of such 'norms' making it here.

The 'new rule' will likely be that all cooks profiled as difficult, involved in drugs, or anything more than a hiccup get arrested only by SWAT TEAMS. The gun industry will make a killing on having to have a SWAT TEAM in every 100 mile district.

I'd rather see a less expensive option. I'd rather see some willingness on gun suppliers in the USA to not sell guns to some Canadian Kook when they know that all Canadians are not allowed an assault rifle.

I remember traveling to the US when I was 20. I had been drinking since I was 16, and legally since I was 18. How strange it was to visit the US and not get served in any restaurant or bar I went to. I wasn't allowed to bring home any booze either.

[slackmaster]

28. Why is it always NRA this and NRA that when gun-related topics come up?

Frankly I don't give a hoot what the NRA says about much. They're a good source for technical information and safety training for people who didn't get it somewhere else, as I did. My thoughts are all my own.

The only thing that separates this kook from prison - was an assault rifle. He was better armed than four police officers and took them all out in seconds.

Would you feel better if he'd shot them with a hunting rifle or a pump shotgun, or an IED boobytrap like insurgents are using in Iraq?

The 'new rule' will likely be that all cooks profiled as difficult, involved in drugs, or anything more than a hiccup get arrested only by SWAT TEAMS.

If Canadian police need to take that kind of measure to enforce Canadian law and arrest Canadian citizens then that's what they'll need to do. That would be unfortunate, but it's an unintended consequence of the War On (some) Drugs.

I'd rather see a less expensive option. I'd rather see some willingness on gun suppliers in the USA to not sell guns to some Canadian Kook when they know that all Canadians are not allowed an assault rifle.

It's true that a Canadian citizen who is a legal US resident can buy many of the same firearms that a US citizen can, but it's not the responsibility of US gun sellers or manufacturers to enforce Canada's laws concerning importation of a firearm. Once said Canadian citizen crosses the border it's up to Canadian authorities to enforce Canadian law. Lots of things that are legal in one country are illegal or regulated in adjacent ones. Maybe Canadian pharmacists should voluntarily stop selling aspirin with codeine to US citizens, eh?

At the end of the day we STILL don't really know what kind of "assault rifle" the fellow used or where it came from, do we? You're still desperately trying to blame a native Canadian problem on the USA.

[applegrove]

29. If they had been shot by a rifle of shotgun... some of the officers would

have gotten away. That is it that is all.


NRA have lied low since Columbine. Why show you show your face when your propaganda is doing its job and it is in self-perpetuating and cycle building. The cycle of gun proliferation is everywhere. Think of the market the beautiful market for guns that could (& will) be generated in Canada now.

[slackmaster]

30. Half-baked speculation with a side order of red herring

You have no way of knowing how the incident would have played out had the perpetrator been armed with a different type of weapon. It wasn't just the "assault rifle" (whatever that means we still do not know) that enabled him to kill four police officers - He also had something even most criminal suspects lack: The will to kill.

NRA have lied low since Columbine.

Are you referring to the same NRA that boasted in 2000 that with George W. Bush selected as President of the USA would have an office in the White House? The NRA that has pushed successfully for concealed-weapons reform in all but nine US states over the last 22 years? The NRA that can kill a bill in the US Senate with a single cell phone call to the right person? Yeah, they're lying low all right. :eyes:

Why show you show your face when your propaganda is doing its job and it is in self-perpetuating and cycle building. The cycle of gun proliferation is everywhere. Think of the market the beautiful market for guns that could (& will) be generated in Canada now.

Denial is the first step in recognizing a problem. In your case the problem is that Canada is starting to show the first symptoms of a burgeoning problem with violent crime. If you can get past your unfounded assumption that the possession of some kind of alleged "assault rifle" by a Canadian murderous dope grower, which gave him superhuman abilities all by itself, is all the fault of forces south of your border then maybe you can start figuring out who is really at fault and what you can do about it. But you have to go through all the stages. Blaming the gun and blaming the USA and blaming the NRA aren't going to get you anywhere.

BTW - Illicit arms trafficking is an international problem, and most of it has nothing at all to do with the US sporting arms industry.

http://www.nynewsday.com/news/local/crime/nyc-smuggle0315,0,6501955.story?coll=nyc-homepage-breaking2

[applegrove]

31. REFRAME REFRAME REFRAME! n/t

[slackmaster]

32. Eh?

I have no idea what you are trying to say.

[applegrove]

33. You keep 'reframing' my arguments against the proliferation of

assault rifles. Assault rifles... black market or not.. are the responsibility of all of mankind to regulate. Obviously 'market' regulations are laughed at by manufacturers so we need to put quotas on the companies themselves or something.

I know how much corporations like the ones one represents love 'public good' regulations touching one's market (efficient ways of delivering the product). And one will tell me that I am not allowed to touch one's market (monkey)i kid because I love ... and for sure one will tell me that I am not allowed to touch one's black market.

Go ahead and say it - I dare one. Say that human beings have no rights to regulate or pursue the public good within a black market either(which is illegal to begin with). I am officially saying that the government should be the only distributor of assault rifles. That no private market should exist. Within the US.Without the US. Since the government is for democracy the world over and no longer funding and arming terrorists or right wing nuts.. should be easy to implement.

Come on... say it. Tell me that as a human being I have no right to touch the market that belongs to corporations...be it a legal or illegal market. I dare one!!

[slackmaster]

34. You are barking up the wrong tree

The global proliferation of illegal assault rifles is not the fault of the US arms industry or the US government.

Obviously 'market' regulations are laughed at by manufacturers so we need to put quotas on the companies themselves or something.

The manufacturing of assault rifles within the US is strictly regulated. They can be produced only for the US military, law enforcement agencies within the US, and for export to friendly countries like Canada, which is also strictly regulated. Our countries are doing their part to regulate the arms industry.

The most common types of assault rifle in the world - the AK-47 (like the ones used in the famous North Hollywood bank robbery and shootout) and its various flavors and derivitives, is not now nor has it ever been manufactured in the USA.

Go ahead and say it - I dare one. Say that human beings have no rights to regulate or pursue the public good within a black market either(which is illegal to begin with).

Regulation of a black market would be an oxymoron.

I am officially saying that the government should be the only distributor of assault rifles.

That is precisely the situation here in the USA and Canada right now.

That no private market should exist. Within the US....

The private market in automatic weapons in the USA has been strictly regulated since 1934, and as a result there have been only two instances of them being used in crimes since then.

Without the US.

We do have international laws and treaties that govern international trafficking of military arms. But we always get back to the old problem that the black market does not allow itself to be regulated.

Come on... say it. Tell me that as a human being I have no right to touch the market that belongs to corporations...be it a legal or illegal market. I dare one!!

Your remark makes no sense to me. The legal market IS regulated, the illegal one is simply illegal.

[applegrove]

36. How do we stop illegal markets? By vigilant enforcement.. and

regulaltion at the source.

[slackmaster]

37. Since we already have regulation at the sources we can control...

(By "we" I mean the USA and Canada)

...Then what do you propose for better controlling the international black market in illicit assault rifles and other military weapons?

[applegrove]

38. Better regulations at the source.

[slackmaster]

39. Which source(s) are you referring to?

People's Republic of China?
Phillipines?
Albania?
Brazil?
Vietnam?
Thailand?
Afghanistan?
Russia?
All the former Sovier SSRs?

Those are some of the places that supply the shady international traffic in military arms.

:shrug:

[applegrove]

40. Better regulations & penalties for gun manufacturers. The delivery

of public goods using the market.

[slackmaster]

41. In what country or countries?

We've already discussed the fact that the US and Canada are not sources for international traffickers of assault rifles.

[applegrove]

42. It is an idea that can spread everywhere. Use markets to deliver

public goods efficiently.. when the markets fails to responsibly deliver the goods themselves (you know.. without too many "externalities".

I know, I know... you do not want human being to benefit from the efficiencies of the markets... markets are only for corporations.

Here we go - around and around and around again.

[slackmaster]

43. Please don't put words into my mouth

I know, I know... you do not want human being to benefit from the efficiencies of the markets... markets are only for corporations.


Those are your thoughts, not mine.

[achtung_circus]

25. I wear Level II body armour

as do most Canadian enforcement staff. Here's a direct quote from the panels in my vest:

LEVEL OF PROTECTION
THIS MODEL COMPLIES WITH BALLISTIC REQUIREMENTS FOR N.I.J. STANDARD 0101.04 TYPE II

.357 Magnum 158 GR JSP 1400 FPS
9 mm 124 gr FMJ-RN 1175 FPS

NOT FOR RIFLE FIRE.
NOT FOR METAL OR ARMOR PIERCING BULLETS.
NOT FOR SHARP EDGED OR POINTED DEVICES.

The numbers in the middle refer to the round against which the vest offers protection, i.e.
357 inch diameter round weighing 158 grains and travelling at 1,400 feet per second.

A Crown Prosecutor in St. Albert, Alberta, said to me some years ago, "ha, ha, the places you go it's a 30-30 and that's a through and through (shot) no matter what you're wearing."