WTF is up with East Hastings/Chinatown in Vancouver?

[MyUncle]

I was in Vancouver July 17-19 with my family. Twins 10, 6 year old, wife and me. We wanted to go to the Pink Pearl for Dim Sum. I'd read a bunch of good reviews. Since cabs for 5 are rare, we took the bus. I must say when I told the driver where I wanted to go, he said not to take the family there, drugs, junkies, etc.

Now I've been to over 100 Dead shows, grew up in New York and have been to lots of majore cites in U.S. and Europe. So I am thinking, how bad could it be?

As we got closer to East Hastings Street on Main, I thought I had been dropped in the middle of Hell's rejects. I mean hundreds if not more hard core junkies just roaming around. Not homeless but really scary people smoking ICE in the open. We turned around, got on the next bus and headed back to the west side. All the stores but a few were closed for the day 6 PM.

I can't imagine what it is like when the sun goes down.

Is this the result of decrimilization? What is going on over there?

I do not think I was over reacting - it was scary!!!

I used to be be very drug tollerant, but now, I don't think so.

[MrPrax]

1. Cross posting?

You put this same thing in GD? So I will post my reply here...hopefully you'll reply:

You were so scared of what you saw from the bus, that you got right off the bus, crossed the street among 'Hell's rejects', went to the other side of the street and --waited?--for the bus back uptown?

Pink Pearl isn't in the DES? It's closer to the Drive on Hastings St. I don't get it...there is a few blocks around 'wasting and pain' (Hastings and Main) that have a lot of street people. But stretches of Hastings are simply economically depressed.

Right next to where you were was Chinatown on Pender--ONE STREET OVER south. World Famous Gastown is TWO BLOCKS north? Thousands of tourists. But you only saw:

I mean hundreds if not more hard core junkies just roaming around. Not homeless but really scary people smoking ICE in the open. We turned around, got on the next bus and headed back to the west side. All the stores but a few were closed for the day 6 PM.

You could tell all of this from a trolley bus with a bunch of kids?

That is funny...why do I think you are less than honest as to why you posted this?

Is there something ELSE you wanted to comment upon perhaps? Something that is currently in the news, perhaps? Something that is controversial? hmmm.....????

And WOW...Even though your only a visitor to our fair city, THANK YOU for your Olympic support!!!

[MyUncle]

5. Just curious Mr. Prax, no mean feelings.

I live on Oahu, and am not connected at all to B.C. or Canadian politics. But I do love Vancouver that is why we stayed there. What is going on that you thought I was undermining or surreptitiously criticizing?

No hostility, just curious.

Also, my Olympics rings are not related to Canada, just Jimmy Carter. It's a long story.

PS, posted in both places because I wasn't sure I'd get responses in G.D.

[MrPrax]

7. Well...

I am still not sure about what the bus thing was about...Pink Pearl isn't anywhere around there. It's much farther up Hastings...so I still don't get that part.

But who cares...you got lost or you got bad information or whatever...

Let's move on to the part your avoiding?

As we got closer to East Hastings Street on Main, I thought I had been dropped in the middle of Hell's rejects.<--Hell's rejects...um...You got nerve describing people this way.


I mean hundreds if not more hard core junkies just roaming around.
Hundreds or not more than...would that be in the thousands? Um...there is a large community center on that corner as well as three bars? Everyone was a hardcore junkie? It's also a secondary bus exchange...you would know that because you apparantly jumped off there? Were you one of Hell's Rejects to some other 'tourist' passing on a bus?

Not homeless but really scary people smoking ICE in the open.
Um...Vancouver has some of the highest real estate prices in North America...we have an acute shortage of housing here...there are a GREAT MANY HOMELESS PEOPLE in Vancouver...most of the shelters and daily food distribution goes on within blocks of where you were. Sorry you think poor people are scary. As far as drugtaking...yeah there might be some. But hundreds or thousands? No...(and the street preference is rock/crack, not ice...unless that is what they call crack cocaine as well in someplaces)

We turned around, got on the next bus and headed back to the west side. All the stores but a few were closed for the day 6 PM.
On a weekday, small retail establishments will close at 6 in a lot of places...but down there are a bunch of bars and 24 type stores

I can't imagine what it is like when the sun goes down.
I'll check...there's nobody on Hastings at the moment...oh I see a street cleaning truck and some old person waiting for the bus...in front of the seniors' home. There are other places in Vancouver that are more active and sinister at night...in fact the big complaints is the bar fighting in Yaletown...which is a funky Tribeca type area. Granville Mall is not very pleasant late night either...but the Downtown Eastside is mostly poor people...

Is this the result of decrimilization? What is going on over there?
Nothing has been decriminalized...they are talking about decriminalizing marijuana...but they have been since 1972...?

I used to be be very drug tollerant, but now, I don't think so.
So you had a well developed set of beliefs regarding drugs and drug use that you now abandon, because you waited at a bus stop in a shitty part of town?

Sorry but I do find this a little contrived or at the very least shallow and close-minded.

[tuvor]

2. It's the most temperate metropolis in Canada.

If you're a Canadian drug addict without a home, where would you choose to live?

Like all Vancouverites, a significant proportion of the population was not born there.

[Canuck55]

3. The talk of decriminalization of personal cannabis...

...possession across the country has what exactly to do with crystal meth and heroin junkies on downtown Hastings? These folks saw the potential for legislation to finally be passed to decriminalize personal amounts of marijuana and decided to get on the pipe and live in an alley?

Greater Vancouver is up over 3 million people now, they'll get the same problems as any other major pop. centre.

And really, the cabbie would have what reason to lie to you? If you went to St. Louis or LA or London or Budapest or Seoul and the cabbie tells you not to take your family to that area because of _________, well you just don't take your friggin family there. I mean ffs, the Dead Head analogy is nuts, how many of those 100 Dead shows did you catch where the audience was wired on meth and/or crack? People don't generally live on the street because they smoke pot, dropped acid or eat mushrooms.

[MyUncle]

6. I was on a bus. I thought maybe, he was exaggerating.

Basically I used the Grateful Dead as a benchmark for people. I've seen people smoking, snorting, dropping and even shooting. I guess I was trying to let you know I am not naive to drugs. I've seen some bad places, but really, this one really shocked me. I am not down on Canada or anything like that. When I got back home - Oahu - I googled Vancouver "addicts" etc. and found out some information about that area. I wanted to know what D.U. people thought. It is an experiment in drug culture that is unique.

Do you all like the results. I admit, I might have been scared unnecessarily, but I was shocked. I was expecting a Chinatown and vicinity like I am used to seeing in N.Y. San Francisco, Honolulu...

No offense.

[Canuck55]

9. That came off a little rougher than i planned.

No offense taken, i automatically get my back up when it comes to cannabis decriminalization. Opponents of it love to throw stuff like Vancouver's safe injection sites into the mix when the issues are totally unrelated.

[MrPrax]

10. I didn't think so...

You zero'ed in on some of the most obvious features of a typical 'innocent bystander' antedotal that doesn't hold up and has a few archetypes...

He's avoided my comments entirely...so I will just go ahead ...

1) He includes children in the narrative --that implies that he and "The Children, The Children" are also being exposed...so it's an attempt to compel urgency.

2) He uses two distinct qualifiers of his presumed observational powers? He claims to be a veteran of Deadhead shows...of course the Grateful Dead is intimately related to drug culture...so it comes off as a 'convert' appraisal..."I was a sinner, before I found Jesus and let me tell you all about" It's suppose to give him credibility in the subject.

He adds 'New York city' -- again unnecessary but done so the reader will have a mind's eye view of what usually is depicted in a Hollywood film about New York city's slums. New York's Time Square is far more well-known; and is also a Neo-Con posterboy for another urban renewal policy that is directly OPPOSITE to the policy in the DES -- there heavy law enforcement, forced evictions combined with billions in 'gentrification' capital from corps like Disney is presumed to have solved some problem. The writer could have used, say as an example, the areas around the bus depots in either Houston or Pittsburgh (which I can attest to are much worst than the DES), but the average American reader wouldn't know of these examples and they might prove just as controversial to citizens living in those cities.

3) Fake naivety - he just a tourist relating a story that could happen to ANYBODY -- it's necessary in these narratives to present yourself as someone with no particular interest, other than to warn the public. It's important to demonstrate that the writer is open-minded and his participation in this is mere 'happenstance'. It was a conspiracy of many different factors (busses, cabs, etc) that lead him to 'Hell's Rejects'. He wants to make sure you don't think he was down there scoring drugs for himself or anything.

4)He uses a drug term...ICE. This is crystal meth. Again it's to gain credibility as having some expertise in this matter and so his powers of observation won't be undermined. Of course even seasoned addicts themselves can't tell from a distance whether a pipe has crack or pot or ice or whatever in it. But he can. Meth is an interesting choice because it is currently in the media in most places, whereas 'crack' is not longer a fashionable 'media' topic.
There was some claims in a report from last year, that meth was 'in' among homeless street people largely due to the fact that they don't want to fall asleep at night, as most homeless sleep during the day, when they can, because it's safer. At night, you risk someone ripping off your shit or getting beat up by suburban jocks out to smack skate punks...more people around during the day.

But I digress...

5)He is making these wild claims as an American towards a Canadian city...so it's safe. You can find urban hellholes and 'druggy' areas all over the US -- the US consumes nearly half of the world's illegal drugs and is much of the source for hard drugs in Canada -- but if he dared make these statements about Seattle, Houston or East St. Louis he would be immediately called on the central fact that his views are entirely culled from a 20 minute expose to a handful of blocks where tourists normally don't go.

6) The money shot here is really what he wants to talk about...
Is this the result of decrimilization? What is going on over there?

This is what he wants to really talk about...he claims to have "I googled Vancouver "addicts" etc."
and discovered "It is an experiment in drug culture that is unique."

How if he googled he would then conclude that drugs are decriminalized and there is an experiment in 'drug culture'? There is a approach to dealing with intravenous drug usage, which while unique in North America, is actually increasingly used elsewhere in the western world with definite results in not only the overall reduction, but cost-effectiveness both in health and policing. People who oppose it generally do so for MORAL REASONS stemming from their attitudes towards drugs and NOT drug addiction.

Insite is for intraveous drug users -- not crack/meth pipe smokers. This part of the narrative, which inspite of all his 'googling' seems missing. Why? Because you are not likely to see people shooting up in public down there as you used to, even 4 years ago, because they have a facility. This fact would have undermined his argument as Insite has proven to be effective in cutting down on this ASPECT of drug addiction. So essentially he has purposely mischaracterized the health 'experiment' as being some policing mechanism, when in fact, it was never conceived of as an adjunct to policing.

Insite's various groups get a lot of these letters -- they have the same features. It's usually a visitor (tourism is a big industry here) and the implication is that the visitor won't visit again unless this one area in town is cleaned up...the Insite opposition loves this line of attack as it 'collectivizes' the harm to the city as a whole and gives compelling economic reasons to shut it down.

If you notice, that the fellow really has a much bigger beef with Vancouver's cabs and transit, if you think about it. He had a fairly popular desination he wanted to visit, but he couldn't get two forms of transportation to co-operate with his choice of destination. I would think as a visitor this would be more of a sore point -- but he disagrees. The failure of transit in this case proved to be a win as he was able to observe 'firsthand' the effects of a drug culture experiment and condemn an entire city in not one but two postings on a large American forum.

[MyUncle]

12. Mr Prax, are you kidding me, should I rise to the bait?

My story is true and I have no motivation to impugn Vancouver or Canada. I paid for my family to go there on vacation. We had a great time minus the one wayward journey to a part of town that most of the people here are agreeing is not a tourist area. I plan on going back, but I will not visit that area of the city. It is not my scene.

I've never heard of Insite, sorry.

My mention of decriminalization is a de facto one. Basically the police have stopped busting people who posses or sell small amounts of hard drugs. It might not be the law, but it might as well be if you are safe to use and sell.

It is the worst place I have ever seen in terms of out of an out control (to me, at the time) drug problem. I live in a great place that has warts - Oahu and I am not personally insulted when those blemishes are discussed. I would not go to St. Louis for vacation or Houston, or Oklahoma City or even Kansas City. I have been to Seattle. Pardon my ignorance but I do not know the equivalent Canadian cities, if there are any. I would love someday to visit Calgary, Montreal and Toronto.

I was one block away from Chinatown, a tourist destination. When I say I've never seen anything like Main and E. Hastings, you can say I am naive if you want to. That there are places that are as bad or worse - I have not seen them.

Take my words at face value, there is no hidden agenda, no lies.

You can choose to believe my story on not. I've never been accused here of making things up so I guess there is a first for everything.

[MrPrax]

16. No Dice...

Your Phoney...

My mention of decriminalization is a de facto one. Basically the police have stopped busting people who posses or sell small amounts of hard drugs. It might not be the law, but it might as well be if you are safe to use and sell.

Where did you hear this from? It's an unmitigated lie. In fact several people have already told you that it's BS...but you still insist on posting it with out proof nonetheless.

Here I will make it very very simple so that even you can understand where I am coming from:

YOU HAVE INSULTED MY COMMUNITY AND MY CITY WITH AN UNSUBSTANTIATED SMEAR IN WHICH YOU MAKE SWEEPING GENERALIZATIONS THAT YOU BASE ON WHAT A 20 MINUTE OBSERVATION?

And then you act the innocent and you stand by your smear where you claim to have seen thousands of Hell's Rejects smoking drugs. I asked you how the hell you could have figured out that everyone down here including MYSELF and my educated degreed professional yuppiue friends are all Speed Freaks.

Now until you apologize or substantiate this bullshit...I will continue to aggressively pursue your yarn, because I feel it needs balance.

I don't feel you are being honest and inspite of politely replying to you to answer these odd assertions -- you decide to ignore them and continue to promote a rightwing agenda based, by YOUR OWN ADMISSION, of a very short exposure in a city you don't know anything about...

In other words -- Your a Liar and Someone WHO most definitely has a hidden agenda.

[MyUncle]

13. PS, we were 2.5 blocks away from our destination - Pink Pearl.

and I would have had no problem walking that far from a bus stop if we had not encountered what we did.

[MrPrax]

17. The map omits all the streets...

It's a tourist map from a Chinese Restrauant than wants you to think it's close to Chinatown...in fact it is a kilometer or more from there...

Funny, Google Map not working in Oahu...? Maybe you should have checked it out at some point before exposing yourself and YOUR CHILDREN to all the ravaged druggy freaks in Vancouver.

Hey do you have any of that good Hawaii dope?
I know someone from Hawaii that used to grow it?
Do you grow marijuana?
You must smoke it though?
A friend of mine went to Honololo once and he said there was this park full of abandoned feral cats and he say people were doing drugs there -- how bad is the drug problem in Hawaii?
Is it safe for tourists?

[MyUncle]

18. Well the Pink Pearl fooled me and that is a bummer....

I believed their map and did not check with Google. We made the decision to go there on the afternoon of our wayward journey such stupids we are. As you probably know, the bus we were on started going south as soon as we got to Main St that is why we hopped off there. I thought we were close to the Pink Pearl when we got off, but it sounds like you know us stupid American tourists quite well, we are such naive morons. So as far as your questions go...

Hey do you have any of that good Hawaii dope?
(A)I do, small stash as I don't smoke much anymore, but occasionally for a concert of movie.

I know someone from Hawaii that used to grow it?
(A)I do not know anyone who grows it.

Do you grow marijuana?
(A)No I do not.

You must smoke it though?
(A) Occasionally.

A friend of mine went to Honolulu once and he said there was this park full of abandoned feral cats and he say people were doing drugs there -- how bad is the drug problem in Hawaii?
(A)Drugs mainly crystal meth - ICE is a problem. It contributes to crime and is destroying quite a few lives and families. This is mainly based on what I've heard and read. I do not know anyone personally who has an ICE problem, but I know lots of people who like an occasional toke. Feral cats as well as chickens are all over the place here. I would think the cats would eat the chickens but they don't mess with them as most are descendant from fighting cocks and are bad ass birds. Feral cats do congregate in parks and some golf courses because liberal politicians have not outlawed feeding them thus enabling them to continue their unabated eating and fornicating.

Is it safe for tourists?
(A) Oahu is pretty safe for tourists with two big exceptions. Car breakins are rampant here. Rental cars stick out like a sun tanned Vancouverite. I tell everyone visiting us that they should leave nothing of any kind of value in their cars no matter where they are going. That includes ironically the U.S. Arizona Memorial at Pearl Harbor. One other thing that is of no small consequence is our ocean. Hawaii has more drownings than any other U.S. state. This is mainly due to tourists from colder climates who are out of shape or not familiar with how powerful the waves are here. The waves are dangerous. Also going from a very sedentary lifestyle to frolicking in the ocean can cause heart attacks that lead to drowning. The things I have seen tourists do here with regard to their safety in the water make me cringe.

Hope that answers all your questions. If not please feel free to ask more.

[MrPrax]

21. You must have been stoned?

You thought you would get Dim Sum at 6pm in the evening? It's breakfast...cut off at 2 pm. It would have been in the brochure you got from the hotel. There are cabs allover the place in downtown and OH! by law all cabs are rated to 5 passengers or less...I am sure you could have fit 2 adults and 3 children in one...Mr. World Traveller.

LOL

Still waiting for you to explain your opinions or apologize?

Shit man, if you made this many mistakes, then at least show some humility that YOU MIGHT BE WRONG about your observations?

Hell's Rejects

[MyUncle]

22. Mr. Prax, I am no liar, but self delusion is a form of lying.

I am not going to apologize for my experience and the retelling of it here. It happened, deal with it.

If I were trying to do what you said I was, wouldn't I be sending letters to the Editor or your newspapers, magazines, chambers, etc.? I have not, and you can check.

Why post in D.U.? I get answers here that are real, with the exception of yours. The idea I am trying to stir up some Right Wing campaign with this story is paranoid.

I am sure you are proud of your neighborhood, love it there, defend it against all. Good for you! But self assessment is HEALTHY. Other Canadians have weighed in here and have said it is not a good scene there. You obviously disagree, in your opinion it is great. To me what looked like Hell's Rejects might have been you or your friends. To each their own. That was a harsh description, but conveyed my impression at the time.

Enjoy Vancouver, I will when I return. If you get to Oahu, bring your sunscreen, drink lots of water, be careful in the ocean, don't leave anything in your rental car if you get one. And as I have learned, don't believe all the sites or the maps.

Aloha.

PS, Dim Sum is an all day affair in many restaurants. I've enjoyed it during the evenings in N.Y., San Diego, Los Angeles and Honolulu

PPS, I was not stoned. I would not risk my vacation by trying to bring Pakalo through U.S. or Canadian customs. That would not be a good thing to be arrested on the family vacation.

[MrPrax]

24. Adding insult to injury now?

So you have no humility...figured as much.

I get answers here that are real, with the exception of yours.

So your interested in the opinions of everyone else, except from a person who lives right here and is extensively involved in the Four Pillars program...yet you want feedback.

The idea I am trying to stir up some Right Wing campaign with this story is paranoid.

Looks like you are though and you have compounded this believe by continuing to use talking points that you KNOW are factually incorrect.

PS, Dim Sum is an all day affair in many restaurants. I've enjoyed it during the evenings in N.Y., San Diego, Los Angeles and Honolulu
oh and did you have trouble finding a cab for 2 adults and three children in those cities as well? And I am sure you can find an all-day Dim Sum place in any of those large cities...you can find them here. But not at the Pink Pearl? Which you couldn't find ultimately?

Now I did politely ask you how you summized all this from a 15 minute wait at a bus stop? I told you that if there is lot of people on that corner, it might be for the fact that there is a community center right there (Carnegie Center--didn't you notice it? You would have been standing right in front of it? Like you didn't notice all the missing streets AFTER THE FACT?)

So none of the background I am giving you is giving you pause for thought that you might have been a little hasty?

Hell's Rejects...
a Tale Told by an Ugly Stupid White Trash American Tourist

[MyUncle]

25. I did see the community center - concrete building, with a downstairs...

entrance to the right? Yup, saw it. That is probably why so many (hundreds) strung out people were congregating there.

I am not white I am mixed blood Asian, I was a tourist, my wife thinks I am handsome, what I did was stupid, I am an American.

Your problem with my story is that you feel your program is not a failure, I do not judge that. All I'll say about it is that it did not look good to me, in the situation that I was in. Off target, somewhat lost with my family.

Your anger and insults show your true colors whatever they be.

Aloha Mr. Prax.

[MrPrax]

26. Downstairs entrance?

Concrete building?



You were allegedly here...2 bus stop right there...??????????????

Perhaps on of the most surveillance heavy corners in North America...with security standing front of the building?

Your anger and insults show your true colors whatever they be.

My anger stems from the fact you have attacked my community and have demonized people who you don't know and based on a short wait at a bus stop? If you aren't seeing this -- then you deserve a lot more abuse.

Your country is awash in drugs, violence and guns...but you think that poor people in Vancouver are scary?

Fuck you

(If you notice I am responding to you in the Canada forum...shall I expose you in the GD posting...I figured I would give you chance to explain yourself...but you refuse...??)

[MyUncle]

27. Yes, that is the building I saw. I think we walked up to it from the

left as you look at this picture. As I look at the photo I realize the building is probably made of stone and not concrete. My bad.

[tuvor]

19. Pink Pearl is nowhere near Main and Hastings.

Had you walked there, you'd have definitely worked up an appetite.

On edit: I got fooled with a map of Las Vegas once, myself. I thought I could walk from the strip to the Liberace Museum, apparently only a few blocks away. Ended up calling a cab when we realized our error about an hour later!

[MrPrax]

23. Me too...

I had that mistake once or twice, but when you travel you figure that shit out.

But then again I wouldn't go on a large American forum and tell the world all about it either...if you note -- the guy brags of extensive travel. But he makes the biggest rookie mistake...that happens to take him to Hastings and Main?

I sent his shit to three people down here...couple wrote back...doesn't pass the smell test and is exactly like those letters the Sun and Province like to publish. The Trade Board here has an active campaign at the moment with these types of letters. That why is attack is ONLY about the 'drug problem' and not about -- the transit problem or lack of tourist information or cabs that fit 5 people (2 adults, 3 kids???!!!) or anything else.

Also Seattle LOVES to promote a negative drug image in Vancouver, because they compete directly with the cruise ship industry here. The big problem though for Seattle et. al. is that American law (Passenger Vessel Act)*. They made a change to the "U.S. Cruise Vessel Act" to stipulate that ships could endrun this requirement, but the ship must have been built in the US...so unless the US is going to get into shipbuilding, then Seattle is screwed.

So this has been a tactic -- scare tourists. If this guy is from Hawaii -- they have a similar problem...they compete directly for tourist dollars and so that was what I summized from the start.

*

He learned that Section 27 of the Merchant Marine Act of 1920 (the Jones Act) requires that ships traveling between two U.S. ports be built in U.S. shipyards, owned and operated by U.S. citizens, and have an American crew. The Passenger Vessel Act of 1886 had earlier put the same restrictions on the transport of passengers between U.S. ports. Specifically what that meant was that a non-U.S. ship could not go between two U.S. ports without stopping in between at a foreign port.

These laws had been passed as part of what were called “cabotage” regulations, relating as they did to travel and trade between ports within a country. They had first been passed to protect shippers on the Great Lakes in the Midwestern part of the U.S., but applied throughout the country.
======
Vancouver cruise trade booms, thanks to the Passenger Services Act

"...As a result, Vancouver, as terminus of the world's third most popular cruise region (after the Caribbean and the Mediterranean), handled 817,000 passengers in the five-month season this year.

Seattle-Alaska cruise passengers were about 15,000..." (losers)

Html version of 'Bringing Cruise Lines to Seattle' memo. Note the figures are from 1997, but there hasn't been much of a change other than Vancouver raising it's numbers.

[tuvor]

28. Something has smelled fishy from the beginning. What did it for me was...

...what Vancouver bus driver would think that Hastings and Main was anywhere near the Pink Pearl?

[MyUncle]

29. If you follow this thread, hopefully you will see that I speak the truth.

I believe Mr. Prax's main problem with my story is how I impugned the people in that area with my perception and subsequent description of them.

So be it.

[CHIMO]

4. Perhaps

You could elaborate a bit. If only for those among us who don't know the area in 2006.

Having worked in the area and passed through it many times I never had a problem. Perhaps I wasn't looking for a problem. However, that was a few years ago.

Could you please expand on what you mean by decriminalization. Quite a large number of cities in Canada don't allow smoking in restaurants and places of work, but I haven't heard that it was decriminalization to have a cigarette in the street. Would very much appreciate what you mean. It may just be a language barrier.

Also it would be quite appreciative if you could tell how a person is homeless or not. Does a garbage bag over the shoulder have any indication of this?

Finally "over there" is over here for most of us here.

[glarius]

8. Wasn't Vancouver recently declared the #1 most livable city in the world?

I seem to remember reading this lately. I don't remember the particulars but it was ahead of all the European and American and other Canadian cities. In that case, it can't be all that bad!

[Canuck55]

14. Vancouver is 'best city to live'

http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/europe/10/04/eui.survey/

I don't entirely agree, i lived there for a few years while at BCIT. I wasn't born there, and found the 'grey days' just too much. Year-round golf wasn't enough to keep me there, but i miss 24 Overwaitea and being able to go downtown on a Tuesday night and catch a wicked band at a small venue, don't miss the traffic much though.

[HEyHEY]

11. THere is no legalization - it is the result of ignoring a problem for too

Long.

The DTES is the largest open drug market in North America and the poorest postal code in Canada.
Many of the people there belong in mental health facilities that were closed by the NDP to curry favour when they were in danger of losing an election.
Years ago, the problem was much worse. Now, becuase of initiatives like the safe injection site, it is getting better.
Watch the movie "Fix, story of an addicted city."

FYI, despite the shady folks... it isn't THAT dangerous of a place.

[Canadian_moderate]

15. I live in the DTES of Toronto

Within a stone's throw of Queen St. E and River St., to be exact. The situation here is probably not nearly as bad as DTES Vancouver (Hastings and Main), but I really don't see how the police allowing that sort of criminal activity to go on in the open is helping these people.

Many people in my neighbourhood were quite upset at a new methadone clinic that was opened here recently. Why does one ward of a city have to have such an imbalance when it comes to social services to treat the typical social problems that major cities face?

While it may seem harsh, I would prefer that people with addictions are treated rather than being allowed to live their destructive lifestyles out in the open. The same people who decry the lack of treatment centres are the same ones that shouted the loudest to have the centres closed several decades ago since they represented an infringement on individual rights to be as f*cked up as one wants to be.

When substance, prostitution and vandalism are allowed to overtake a neighbourhood it makes the situation worse for everyone. Banks will close branches, stores close, businesses move, etc, etc. It's a downward spiral and I hope to God that the situation in my neighbourhood will not get worse. Luckily there's is some major development happening in my area that will hopefully improve the situation.

Let's not all jump on the observations of a tourist who found that Canada's utopia has it's worts as well. There's nothing enlightening about fostering destructive activity. It shouldn't just be allowed to exist and expand. It needs to be treated.

[MrPrax]

20. Let's not all jump

Oh I will jump and jump on this POS liar...

Apparantly the fool thinks you can get dim sum at 6 in the evening?

Shit if he made that mistake, among many others, then why would anyone take his account of Hell's Rejects seriously.

BTW the way I have been told that the Vancouver Board of Trade and their ilk have a letter writing campaign going on at the moment...the local papers here actively publish this shit to attack the program using the threat of tourist deprivation. Best I can tell...he is participating.

You can tell he's full of shit because of the map he posted... that approximately 13 city blocks are missing (he would have KNOWN that if he had actually been here) and so he wouldn't have wasted time googling 'Pink Pearl' to cover his ass. (At least he was smart enough not to call Hastings...Hwy 7a...LOL)

I am not going to jump on you...because I think your heart is in the right place..

When substance, prostitution and vandalism are allowed to overtake a neighbourhood it makes the situation worse for everyone. Banks will close branches, stores close, businesses move, etc, etc.

You assume a connection...many many communities have lost businesses, banks, services to everything from gentrification, plant closures, city developments, Wal-Mart, etc.

It might correlated, but it's NOT causal. If financially you end up with the shit end of a stick in a capitalism system, then unless you have good luck and a strong social network, you usually end up in these places...ghetto-ization of undesireables is an age-old problem. It's just Conservative moralists tend to want to explain the that 'versions' of Ghetto-ization they see are a result of individual failure, lack of and not a systemic socio-economic condition.

Drug addiction is a health problem...not a crime.

[Canuck55]

30. err, yeah but....

"While it may seem harsh, I would prefer that people with addictions are treated rather than being allowed to live their destructive lifestyles out in the open."

They have to either:

a) voluntarilly commit themselves legally
b) be commited legally after judicial revue.

Either option puts you in a psych. ward. And you have all the rights of a prisoner once that goes down. People whose jobs are on the line have to sign off that you are okay to be released, so they lean towards the CYA approach.