Anyone else sick of the Chicago-Bashing that has been going on Re: Obama?

[SemiCharmedQuark]

Some Clinton supporters are bringing out the meme "Chicago-style" "Chicago Politician" and calling Chicagoans hopeless, and Chicago politicians corrupt, dirty, etc. I know what those who say this are getting at, but it still drives me up a wall. Not all Chicago politicians are the same! And we in Chicago are not hopeless. We have our problems, but I love my city and wouldn't trade it for any other city in the world.

[ChairmanAgnostic]

1. hillary could not get elected to

ward committeeman here. she's not experienced, nor strong enough.

[FATCATs]

2. I'm sick of the infighting

We are acting like Re-pugs and tearing each other apart.
McCain is the enemy, Not each other.

[madrchsod]

3. yes.....greatest lake front in the world....

and the best big city in the usa!

[Saturday]

4. I haven't seen any Chicago bashing. Where Is it? I love Chicago too. nt

[SemiCharmedQuark]

5. Wade through GDP, if you dare

I'm not allowed to post links singling specific posters out.

[Radical Activist]

6. Stop re-electing people who have been indicted or investigated for various crimes.

I love Chicago too but I can't believe how many serious candidates run and/or get elected in Chicago who have been implicated in various corruption scandals, silver shovel, or have ties to organized crime figures etc.

Not to mention that it was Chicago who gave us George Ryan and the second term of Blagojevich. Downstate put Blago over the top in his first primary and election to term one, but it was his margin in Chicago that gave him his second term. Downstate also voted for Glenn Poshard who would have been the first honest Illinois Governor in decades. Stop tolerating crooks as elected officials and the reputation will change.

[murielm99]

8. Poshard is much too socially conservative

for this state. The man is anti-abortion, and pro-death penalty. He has voted against affirmative action.

And while I think the whole plagiarism scandal against him was overblown, it would come back to haunt him during any type of election campaign.

I would say no to him as a candidate.

[Radical Activist]

9. The Ryan campaign did a good job painting Poshard.

Poshard said he wouldn't try to change the state's laws on choice and his chief of staff of many years was gay. He was a good Democrat and he would have been a great Governor. But if you'd prefer to vote for a crook like Ryan over a few hot button Republican wedge issues then that's your choice.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

11. Having a chief of staff that is gay, does not excuse wishing to deny

gay couples benefits. In fact, that's a sorry explanation. Along the lines of "I'm not a bigot, I have a black friend"

[Radical Activist]

13. Then its a good thing you voted Ryan since

he passed the civil unions bill in Illinois. Oh wait...

[SemiCharmedQuark]

14. Didn't Southern Illinois vote largely for George W. Bush in 2004?

In fact, most of the counties in Illinois went for Bush. If Chicago didn't exist, he would have won Illinois. Since all of those other counties voted to keep Bush in, are they all corrupt as well?

I probably would have voted for the Dem against a Republican. I wasn't old enough to vote that year. However, I certainly would not have voted for him in the primary. I cannot blame gays for thinking he was an ass.

[Radical Activist]

15. The most Democratic County in Illinois is in Southern Illinois.

It is traditionally Democratic.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

17. Why did the vast majority of counties in Illinois go for Bush? Cook had the largest % for Kerry

Did the other counties love Bush so much they voted against their traditional party? Bush is the slimiest politician I've ever seen. If corruption= voting for a corrupt politician (a notion that I disagree with), then most of the counties in IL are corrupt.

http://uselectionatlas.org/RESULTS/state.php?f=0&fips=17&year=2004

[Radical Activist]

20. The majority of Illinois counties are not in Southern Illinois.

Kerry was a horrible candidate with no appeal in rural America. That was a problem in many states.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

21. Out of the southernmost fifty counties, 5 voted for Kerry, 45 went for Bush.

And what about Bush appealed to Rural voters?

Also, I love this logic:

When other counties vote Republican, it's because the Democrats ran the wrong candidate.
When Cook votes Republican, it's because Cook is corrupt.

Finally, why did most of the other counties choose Bush over Gore in 2000? Of the fifty southernmost counties, 13 went to Gore and 37 went to Bush. Was Gore a horrible candidate too? What about Bush appealed to rural voters?

[Radical Activist]

22. What does this have to do with half the people running for Alderman in Chicago

having a criminal record? Chicago voting for crooks is what this thread was about.

What point are you trying to make by saying downstate counties voted for Bush? This isn't a Republican/Democratic issue.

You need to work on your definition of Southern Illinois. 50 counties? That's half the state. Just because its south of Chicago doesn't make it "Southern." Over the last 20 years the most consistently heavily Democratic counties are in Southern Illinois (the lower third of the state). That has been the case for the last 100 years or so. Chicago isn't the only thing going for Illinois Democrats.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

23. Ok, 4 of 33 went for Kerry in 2004, 10 of 33 went to Gore in 2000.

You have never brought alderman up until now. You have only brought up gubernatorial candidates. You made this about democratic vs. republicans when you blamed Chicago for letting a Republican win the gubernatorial race, even though I said repeatedly I was only talking about not voting for Posshard in the primary.

Do you know how many alderman there are in Chicago?

[Radical Activist]

24. See post 6

I brought up Chicago local elections, silver shovel (a Chicago scandal), and Blagojevich. George Ryan is just what people responded to.

And if you look at the numbers it was Chicago Democrats and independents voting for Ryan who gave us that crook. Its just one example.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

25. How many alderman are corrput of the fifty that serve?

Why do you criticize Kerry for not appealing to rural voters, but you don't condemn Poshard for not appealing to the gay community?

[Radical Activist]

26. Oh Jesus

You're just being contrarian for the sake of argument now and I've grown tired of it.
If you want to live in a dream world where Chicago politicians are honest and John Kerry wasn't a shitty candidate for appealing to the rural midwest and south then be my guest.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

27. You can't answer.

I never said Chicago politicians were perfect. In fact, I said in the OP, Chicago has it's problems. But I would wager that the problems are probably not significantly greater than New York's or many other big cities. You just can't explain why you excuse poor voting decisions on one hand and condemn poor voting decisions on the other.

And you never explained how Bush appealed to the rural voters.

[mopinko]

28. got a link for that?

i think your view of politics is a little more jaded than the reality.

[Radical Activist]

29. Link for what exactly?

[mopinko]

30. for half the alderman having criminal records.

the ones i know are good people. i know of a couple that have had scrapes with the law. but come on. you know it isn't half.

[Radical Activist]

32. I wrote half the people running

not half the Alderman. And the fact that there are people actually elected and re-elected who have been investigated or prosecuted is something that wouldn't happen in my town or most others. Yes, I'm sure its not half but the record and silver shovel speak for themselves. I remember reading a Sun Times article in the last Chicago election that listed everyone running who had been indicted, convicted or under investigation who was running for Alderman that year. It was over 2 dozen people. Unbelievable.

[mopinko]

33. so where is that suntimes link?

silver shovel was 12 years ago. and al capone is still dead.

[Radical Activist]

36. No

I'm not going to spend my time searching the Sun Times website for an old article I remember reading not knowing how far back their archives go. If you care that much you can search yourself. I think you know my point is valid.

[mopinko]

40. du etiquette requires you to post a link.

don't tell me "look it up". either don't use it, or don't defend it if you can't post it. and don't tell posters to go research your points.
and my point was not that there is no corruption in chicago. it is that corruption in chicago is not worse than any other big city. your search doesn't address that, either.

[Radical Activist]

42. It was something I read in a real newspaper offline over a year ago.

So it isn't reasonable to expect a link. I've made my point and I'm not going to spend an hour looking for an article just to rub your nose in it.

If you're going to claim its just as bad in other cities then you'd have to do a major research project looking at the number of scandals and corrupt officials re-elected in major US cities. And that would only compare the corruption that is discovered so it still wouldn't prove anything. I won't ask you to do that kind of research to back up your argument.

[Radical Activist]

37. I just did a google news search

using the terms, Chicago Alderman Investigation. Unbelievable the number of corruption stories there are in the news just right now at any given time. Do the search yourself and see. It proves my point. I understand you like Chicago and so do I but the facts are clear.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

12. I agree

I think he was cleared of the plagiarism stuff though. But anti-choice, anti-gay rights, and pro-death penalty is enough for me.

[ColesCountyDem]

54. While he is pro-life, etc. ...

I've known Rep. Poshard personally for my entire life, and while he's very much a product of Southern Illinois, in terms of his social views, he's also absolutely incorruptible. As far as his 'social views' are concerned, far too many Democrats chose to look at only his views on abortion, guns and capital punishment, while ignoring his solidly progressive/liberal views on labor, education, health care, workplace safety and a whole host of OTHER issues that are ALSO vital to ordinary citizens. Furthermore, Poshard couldn't have made it any clearer that while he was personally pro-life, he would set aside his personal views on abortion, etc., and enforce the law under Roe v. Wade. We like to call ourselves a 'big tent' party, but there are times when we are just as non-inclusive as those idiots on the other side.

Make no mistake-- it was 'litmus test' DEMOCRATS who were responsible for saddling us with George Ryan and the mountains of debt he placed upon the shoulders of the taxpayers (and our children and grandchildren), not to mention the stench of corruption emanating out of Springfield in the wake of his term as governor.

Maybe I'm wrong, but I've always felt that someone can be progressive without marching in lockstep on every single issue.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

10. Poshard was too socially conservative, and not just in regards to abortion

Although he was against abortion (except if the woman's life was in danger). He was pro-death penalty, and he voted to make it harder for death row inmates to appeal. Considering Illinois' history with death sentence oopsies (Cruz comes to mind), that's pretty bad. Worst of all, he was anti-gay rights. He may be honest, but he is honestly wrong, IMHO. I would not vote for him as my candidate.

[Radical Activist]

16. He was not anti-gay rights.

And I seriously doubt any of the other laws you mentioned would be any different than they were under Ryan.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

18. He voted for DOMA and against anti-discrimination laws for gays.

His "threshold" argument is disgusting. I expect better from my Democratic Candidates. As I said, I would have voted for Poshard in the GE before I'd vote for Ryan. But I would most definitely not support Poshard in the Primary, not even if he ran against Blago.

[Radical Activist]

38. Almost everyone in Congress voted for DOMA

including a majority of Democrats. And Ryan didn't pass the anti-discrimination bill during his term, so again, what was the difference?

[SemiCharmedQuark]

48. From the top now: I would vote Poshard in the Gen. Election.

But NOT in the primary as long as someone, ANYONE, was better on civil liberties. I am not saying that Ryan was a good governor, or that he deserved more votes than Poshard. However, I can't fault people for being angry at the two choices and I'm not going to fault them for showing that anger at the polls.

Further, Dems who did NOT vote for DOMA included both of our senators at the time. They were 2 of 14 who did not vote for this crappy law. I can't find the roll of Illinois Reps to figure out the exacts, but you're right, I'm guessing it went a little under 2:1 for yea. We may not have had Ryan if they had elected someone more palatable to the gay community.

[ProfessorGAC]

31. Ryan's Not From Chicago

He's from Kankakee and that's south of me. And most of the Chicago DU'ers think that South America begins at I-80! :evilgrin:

So, you can't blame Chicago for Felonious George. He's exurban or rural, all the way.

The Professor

[Radical Activist]

35. Chicago put him in office.

It was his margin with independents and Dems in Chicago that got him elected.

[ProfessorGAC]

39. Fair Enough

But that happens in most statewide races, no? One city is nearly 30% of the population. Seems like Chicago putting a governor in the seat would be a truism.
GAC

[Radical Activist]

41. That's besdie the point.

In this case Chicago put a crooked Governor into office, just like Illinois has had for the last 30 years.

But on to your point no, it isn't the case that Chicago always picks our Governors. With Democratic Chicago, and the Republican suburbs, it's often the downstate moderate swing vote that decides statewide elections. That was the case with Blagojevich in his first Democratic Primary (he lost Cook county but won downstate by a wide margin) and in his first general election as Governor when a large number of swing voters in central and western Illinois supported him.

Ryan was a little unique. The Southern 1/3 of the state voted for Poshard by 80% or more. Central and Western Illinois divided the way it usually does, and Chicago Democrats put Ryan over the top.

[dogfacedboy]

52. True. Chicago carried Ryan. Chicago Republicans are pretty Centrist. n/t

[Critters2]

51. Far be it from me to defend Chicago, but in the name of fariness

George Ryan is from Kankakee.

[mopinko]

7. al capone is dead.

i know exactly what they mean. i have had several meltdowns because of this.
chicago style, would that mean, like the great buildings, and the public lakefront, the beautiful parks, the world class museums, the buzzing downtown, the thriving, multilayered, stable economy, the...
no, that would not be what they mean. the bluest of the blue, and what do we get?
yes, we have our less than stellar representatives, but we also have some of the best and the bravest. like the 7 illinois reps who voted no on the ohio electors after '04. and how many members of the out of iraq of iraq coalition.
i could go on. which is to say, yes, yes i do know what you mean.

[olkaz]

19. When you're downstate, you understand.

Seriously, we're not treated so well by Chicago folk.

Being a downstate Democrat is not easy.

(Donated to, Voted for, and Support Obama)

[DaveJ]

46. Don't take it personally.

They don't treat each other so well either.

[Hailtothechimp]

34. America has never had a president from Chicago.

Maybe that's the problem.

Read the Poem "Chicago" by Carl Sandburg. It may cheer you up.

[orleans]

43. (yeah, that's a real cheery poem. not) n/t

[Hailtothechimp]

44. Have you read it all the way through?

It basically says Chicago is called many names, none of them flattering, but in the end, it is proud to be what it is.

I'm proud of my city, and I don't know any Chicagoan who isn't. That's all the poem says.

[orleans]

47. yes. i read it all the way through. i just don't find it uplifting.

on edit:

Hog Butcher for the World,
Tool Maker, Stacker of Wheat,
Player with Railroads and the Nation's Freight Handler;
Stormy, husky, brawling,
City of the Big Shoulders:
They tell me you are wicked and I believe them, for I have seen your painted women under the gas lamps luring the farm boys.
And they tell me you are crooked and I answer: Yes, it is true I have seen the gunman kill and go free to kill again.
And they tell me you are brutal and my reply is: On the faces of women and children I have seen the marks of wanton hunger.
And having answered so I turn once more to those who sneer at this my city, and I give them back the sneer and say to them:
Come and show me another city with lifted head singing so proud to be alive and coarse and strong and cunning.
Flinging magnetic curses amid the toil of piling job on job, here is a tall bold slugger set vivid against the little soft cities;
Fierce as a dog with tongue lapping for action, cunning as a savage pitted against the wilderness,
Bareheaded,
Shoveling,
Wrecking,
Planning,
Building, breaking, rebuilding,
Under the smoke, dust all over his mouth, laughing with white teeth,
Under the terrible burden of destiny laughing as a young man laughs,
Laughing even as an ignorant fighter laughs who has never lost a battle,
Bragging and laughing that under his wrist is the pulse, and under his ribs the heart of the people, Laughing!
Laughing the stormy, husky, brawling laughter of Youth, half-naked, sweating, proud to be Hog Butcher, Tool Maker, Stacker of Wheat, Player with Railroads and Freight Handler to the Nation.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicago_(poem)

[DaveJ]

45. Hillary decided to abandon Chicago, didn't she....

That seems to be what most the old Chicago 'yuppies' did a long time ago. (for the better I might add)

At the first sign of a few brown kids in their public schools, they pulled their kids out and headed for the suburbs.

That's really progressive of them. :sarcasm:

There's nothing wrong with Chicago, it's a great city. This is just my gut talking, mind you. But if politicians were ever able to get away with corruption, I have the feeling it was somewhat aided by the folks who lived here at the time.

Hillary left a long time ago, never to return, so she has no right to say anything about us.

[mopinko]

49. hillary never lived here.

not in the city, that is. park ridge is sure not the city.
iirc, she left for college and never returned. so, yeah, i agree she has not basis for comparison.

[craigshotspot]

50. what about nyc style

obama is too polite to call her out on her gutter style NYC politics but someone show. Well its actually Gutter NYC combined with redneck AR politics.

[mopinko]

53. tom roesser- aaarrrggghhhhh my eyes!!

omg. if i see one more link to that clown's blog, i am gonna wreck this computer by barfing on it.