HUGO CHAVEZ blamed for Chicago/Cook County voting problems!!!

[wndycty]

Alderman: Election Day troubles could be part of 'international conspiracy'
By Andy Shaw

April 7, 2006 - One of Chicago's most powerful aldermen has a conspiracy theory for the voting problems experienced during the March primary. Alderman Ed Burke wants to know why the Chicago board of elections would pick a Venezuelan company to supply the city's new voting machines, a company Burke believes has the ability to rig an election for political gain.
-snip-

"We've stumbled across what could be the international conspiracy to subvert the electoral process in the United States of America ," said Ald. Ed Burke, finance committee chairman.


Alderman Burke says at least 15 Venezuelans, who may not have been in the country legally, worked side-by-side with Chicago election officials on primary night March 21, which turned out to be a vote-counting nightmare.

Burke says the fiasco may have been politically motivated, because the president of Venezuela, Hugo Chavez, is considered an enemy of the United States and may be connected to a Venezuelan company that owns a US firm that provided Chicago and Cook County with the new voting machines that contributed to the election night problems.
-snip-

http://abclocal.go.com/wls/story?section=local&id=4065162

[dogman]

1. There have been a few posts on this subject.

But when I add this factor the threads seem to die. It's ironic that the RW is aware of election fraud when the far left is involved. It's seems as ironic as the posters worried about RW military regimes but seem to have no problem with LW military regimes.

[Xeric]

3. Uh, excuse me

But the Hugo Chavez government is not a "left wing military regime". It's an elected government certified by a host of independent observers. This kind of propaganda is coming from the Bush Admin that tried to overthrow that government in a CIA coup. The people of Venezuela voted for Hugo Chavez. Our government is only interested in destabilizing his government because of the oil and his refusal to bow to the Bush regime's wishes.
This canard about Sequoia is all about displacing the blame for the county buying these crappy machines. If they can blame it on some sinister conspiracy maybe nobody will start to wonder who got paid to push this contract through. That's how politics works in Chicago.

[dogman]

4. Pay attention to what Chavez has said and done.

He has made decrees and decisions unilaterally, without going to the Legislature. Many RW military regimes are elected also, hence the irony. Oppression of the minority is not an ideal we want in this Country and I would not think we would admire it in any other Country. This opinion is not only that of the administration. But they have approached in the wrong way, rather than showing an alternative and helping countries in the way Chavez is, they would rather destabilize his government.

[Xeric]

5. pot kettle black

And can you tell me what minority has been "oppressed" in Venezuela? The minority that attempted a coup d'etat with the CIA's help? Who exactly? The democracy in Venezuela seems to be vital and legally based. If you wish to make the claim that it is not, I suggest you provide some evidence rather than parrot the Bush State Dept. line.
We have a president here that is known for ignoring the rule of law and for making decisions unilaterally, bypassing the legislature which has become more of rubber stamp than I have ever seen in my lifetime. Rather than concern yourself about Venezuela, I would suggest you worry about things a little closer to home.

[dogman]

6. Which brings back my point.

I don't want a RW or a LW dictatorship. From Wikipedia-
Snip>A career military officer, Chávez founded the leftist Fifth Republic Movement after a failed 1992 coup d'état.
Snip>Chávez has been severely criticized, mostly by Venezuela's middle and upper classes.
Snip>Controversially, foreign banks — including Spain's Banco Bilbao Vizcaya Argentaria (BBVA) and Banco Santander, each the owner of one of Venezuela's largest banks — illicitly funneled millions of dollars into Chávez's campaign
Snip>After the mid-2000 elections, Chávez backed passage of the "Enabling Act", which allowed Chávez to rule by decree for one year. In November 2001, Chávez used it to enact 49 decrees, including the "Hydrocarbons Law" (more government control over the oil sector) and the "Land Law" (land reform and redistribution).<snip

As you say "pot kettle black".

[Xeric]

8. Your point is vague

Again, there is no dictatorship in Venezuela, it is a legally elected government.
Indeed Chavez has been "severely criticized"- by the people that attempted an illegal coup d'etat.
Notice that the quote is "Chavez backed passage" of the enabling act and the hydrocarbons act and the land law which were AUTHORIZED BY THE NATIONAL ASSEMBLY. Democracy see? If the people of Venezuela want government control of the energy sector, that is there business. Doesn't sound like such a bad idea to me actually considering the Enron scandal etc.
Land reform and redistribution in Latin America were long overdue considering the decades of facistic governments sponsored by the USA that allowed a few families to control vast amounts of the wealth and land.
Chavez was a military officer. He is not now. Would you suggest that a career officer (like Wesley Clark) is somehow unqualified to run for office?
How much money did the CIA and our banking system pour into the opposition campaign to over throw him first by ballot, which failed and then by illegal force, which falied?

[dogman]

10. Read it all again.

My point is the irony of it all. No where did I write the word dictator. The mention in my post of a coup is the coup that Chavez himself led as a lieutenant colonel against Perez. The Chavez coup also failed and he was jailed.
Re read the sentence
Snip>which allowed Chávez to rule by decree for one year. In November 2001, Chávez used it to enact 49 decrees<snip
Strange Democracy especially considering how the National Assembly came to be.
Snip>In August 1999, the Constitutional Assembly's "Judicial Emergency Committee" declared a "legislative emergency" whereby a seven-member committee conducted the National Assembly's functions; meanwhile, the National Assembly was prohibited from holding meetings.<26> The Constitutional Assembly drafted the 1999 Venezuelan Constitution, which included an increase in the presidential term from five to six years, a new presidential two-term limit, and a new provision for presidential recall elections, expanded presidential powers (including the power to dissolve the National Assembly), conversion of the bicameral National Assembly into a weakened unicameral legislature, merit-based appointments of judges, and creation of the Public Defender, an office authorized to regulate the activities of the presidency and the National Assembly.<snip
How long would you stand for our "elected" GOP Congress giving Bushco the power to make his own laws for one year? But then again they almost have.
If Wes Clark had formed a military revolutionary movement which he then converted into his own political party after it failed militarily to seize control of the government, I would not support Clark. Clark is working through the existing political system. Like Clark I do not approve of using US resources to undermine Chavez. I prefer Clark's proposal that we compete in Latin and South America by doing more good things for the people that need help as Chavez is now doing.

[dogman]

7. BTW

I am not concerned about Venezuela, and in my first post that you responded to, I only commented on the irony of those who oppose RW military regimes and not LW military regimes. It seems to me that you have proven my point.

[Xeric]

9. Declare yourself victor and walk away

Once again, the government of Venezuela is not a "military regime", it is a democracy. It is only a "military regime" in your mind and in the propaganda of the Bushies. I am against military regimes.
You "point" such as it is, has not only been disproven, it appears to be disingenuous.

[dogman]

11. Chavez is the victor for now.

I spend about $200 a week of my employers money buying Citgo gas for their truck. There are worse leaders than Chavez, but he is hardly a hero. I only consider his a military regime because of his desire to buy immense amounts of arms that his country does not need. He already has the weapon of choice, oil.

[wndycty]

12. Good point, the enemy of my enemy is NOT NECESSARILY my friend. . .

. . .and as Democrats if we want to win, if we want to lead we should not embrace the philosophy.

Chavez does some good, like trying to give fuel to lower income Americans, however his motives are not altruistic they are to further his political agenda. I enjoy it when he dogs and embarrasses Bush however while I might be more ideologically in tune with Chavez, his brand of Democracy is a lot more like Bush's than it is mine. Read the clips below, Chavez sounds a whole hell of a lot more like Bush than he does anyone that any self resepcting Democrat would defend:

Venezuela: Court Orders Trial of Civil Society Leaders

(Washington, July 8, 2005) — In ordering the trial of four civil society leaders on dubious charges of treason, a Venezuelan court has assented to government persecution of political opponents, Human Rights Watch said today.
The court has given the government a green light to persecute its opponents. Prosecuting people for treason when they engage in legitimate electoral activities is utterly absurd.

Yesterday, a court in Caracas ordered that María Corina Machado and Alejandro Plaz be tried on treason charges brought by a public prosecutor because their nongovernmental organization, Súmate, accepted foreign funds for a program that encouraged citizen participation in a referendum on President Hugo Chavez’s presidency in 2004. Two other Súmate leaders, Luis Enrique Palacios and Ricardo Estévez, will also be tried on charges of complicity with this alleged crime.

“The court has given the government a green light to persecute its opponents,” said José Miguel Vivanco, Americas director at Human Rights Watch. “Prosecuting people for treason when they engage in legitimate electoral activities is utterly absurd.”
-snip-

http://hrw.org/english/docs/2005/07/08/venezu11299.htm

Venezuela: Rights Lawyer Faces Judicial Persecution

Criminal Investigation Launched to Intimidate Critic of Government’s Rights Record

(Washington, April 5, 2005) — The Venezuelan government should immediately halt criminal proceedings opened against one of Latin America’s most prominent human rights lawyers, Human Rights Watch said today.

Carlos Ayala Corao, a distinguished Venezuelan jurist and human rights expert, was summoned to appear this morning before a Caracas public prosecutor. The prosecutor was to notify Ayala of the opening of a criminal investigation against him, apparently for alleged involvement in the failed April 2002 coup against Venezuelan President Hugo Chávez. Ayala, who is currently president of the nongovernmental Andean Commission of Jurists, is a former president of the Inter-American Commission on Human Rights.

Ayala appeared before the prosecutor who told him that his case had been postponed, and ordered him to present himself next week. He was given no explanation for the delay nor informed about the grounds of the investigation.

“This is a clear-cut case of political persecution, targeting someone who has been an effective critic of the Chávez government’s human rights record,” said José Miguel Vivanco, Americas director at Human Rights Watch. “This outrageous accusation would be rejected out of hand in any independent court of law.”
-snip-

http://hrw.org/english/docs/2005/04/05/venezu10423.htm

Venezuela: Curbs on Free Expression Tightened

(Santiago, March 24, 2005) — Amendments to Venezuela’s Criminal Code that entered into force last week may stifle press criticism of government authorities and restrict the public’s ability to monitor government actions, Human Rights Watch said today.
By broadening laws that punish disrespect for government authorities, the Venezuelan government has flouted international human rights principles that protect free expression.
José Miguel Vivanco, Americas director at Human Rights Watch

“By broadening laws that punish disrespect for government authorities, the Venezuelan government has flouted international human rights principles that protect free expression,” said José Miguel Vivanco, Americas director at Human Rights Watch. “While countries across Latin America are moving to repeal such laws, Venezuela has enacted further restrictions on the press that will shield officials from public scrutiny.”

The amendments extend the scope of existing provisions that make it a criminal offense to insult or show disrespect for the president and other government authorities. Venezuela’s measures run counter to a continent-wide trend to repeal such “disrespect” (or “desacato”) laws. In recent years, Argentina, Costa Rica, Paraguay, and Peru have already repealed such laws, and other countries like Chile and Panama are currently considering legislation that would do so.

The human rights bodies of the United Nations and of the Organization of American States have repeatedly urged states to repeal such provisions.
-snip-

http://hrw.org/english/docs/2005/03/24/venezu10368.htm

[dogman]

13. Again, hence the irony.

My point was not a condemnation of Chavez but the irony of perspective. People recognize the wrongs in a power grab from the right but laud the similar tactics when employed by the left. The original point I was making was that when the potential for, and probable, vote fraud was pointed out by us, the right called us loony conspiracy theorists. When they see the potential for vote fraud in the hands of the left, they are espousing the theory of probable vote fraud. Many of us are just leary of our vote being manipulated by anyone. It just comes back to what I feel is the circular nature of politics. Rather than left to right in a linear fashion it is circular and extremism is the polar opposite where left meets right. I am leery of anyone who would unilaterally "fix" the system.

[wndycty]

14. Some of our DU brothers and sisters don't get it. . .

. . .they allow their bitter hatred of all things Bush/GOP (and I share that hatred) cloud any form of logical thinking. They are willing to bite their nose off to spite their faces.

[mopinko]

15. i don't know why i can never find anything when i search here

but johnny cougar has posted some vigorous defenses of hugo, complete with good references. you all are spouting propaganda here.

[dogman]

16. Right, his are facts, ours propaganda.

SOS

[mopinko]

17. don't jump to conclusions, there, dogman.

i am not trying to. i am just saying that much of what is printed about chavez is propaganda, and we should all take it with a grain of salt.
when this shit is contested on the basis of connections to hugo, and burke pushes that by saying, "donald rumsfeld has called him an enemy of ...(sorry, don't recall the slur exactly.)" we just need to call bullshit.
imho, for what that is worth, if hugo has a hand in this, my hope is that his aim is to expose the incredibly corrupt election system that put these criminals in power. more power to him, i say.

[dogman]

19. I wasn't concluding anything.

I was commenting on the irony of the RW not being concerned about vote fraud until they felt Chavez could be involved. Also the irony that the left could overlook Chavez' faults because he is dominating the right. It seems there is no thought to perspective by either side. I do not trust Burke but I also do not trust Chavez. I also think the left and right are capable of vote fraud because they are both dogmatic and believe there is no way other than their own. But then, I think I'm correct, so there.

[mopinko]

20. i mostly agree with you dog.

there is plenty of corruption on both sides. i sure do not sit here in chicago and think that dems do not steal votes. power corrupts, extremes are bad. no doubt.
i think we only disagree on the amount of corruption and "evil" in venezuela. there will never be a perfect government. hugo has had quite a battle, and genuine enemies to fight. including the u.s. you do not stand fast against things like that with a handful of posies. the bottom line for me is always, are the people's needs met? if a couple of people have more in their pockets than they deserve, but the people have an effective government that is meeting their needs and providing for a better future, that is about as good as it gets in the real world. by that score, hugo is a giant leap forward from the corrupt oligarchs of the past.
read john perkins "confessions of an economic hit man" and you will never look at the slurs against "leftist regimes" repeated in our press quite the same way again.
peace, man.

[wndycty]

18. Exactly. . .agree with Mopinko= speaker of truth, disagree propganda!!

I'm so sick of this shit.

[madrchsod]

2. oh my god

a rigged election in chicago/cook county? i will believe it`s rigged when a republican wins..actually from what i`ve heard there were problems but nothing that can`t be fixed by november. what is burke upset about? his wife is on the supreme court.hell he could retire , become a consultant, and make real money.