The debate was a SHOCK

[Dogmudgeon]

It wasn't how good John Kerry was ... Kerry was once a prosecutor fer cryin' out loud! "Trial lawyers" usually can handle themselves quite well in a public debate.

What surprised me, though, was just how bad Bush was. He seemed to implode after the very first question. I'm not one of those people who buys into the idea that Bush is dumb -- he's not dumb at all. But tonight, he looked and sounded like he was ready to collapse.

Kerry did a good job. He is a skillful, disciplined, experienced debater. But he went out of his way to be polite and "statesmanlike" tonight. Bush, in effect, defeated himself.

I never bought the "dry drunk" argument, either, but tonight, he sounded like a sentimental old lush. That was a bit of a shock, too.

"Never underestimate your opponent" goes the old fighter's saying. I don't think I have ever failed to give Bush and Team Bush the benefit of the doubt. But tonight, Something Terrible Has Gone Wrong.

What was it? Did Team Bush get overconfident while their golden boy was secretly trembling inside? Did the pressure get to Dubya? I don't think he would have done that badly otherwise.

I think it caught the Commentariat off guard, too.

Anyone have similar observations? Disagreements? Different points?

--bkl

[H2O Man]

1. Bush had to defend his record tonight.

It's much easier to have a smirking, cocky George W. Bush challenge the person in a debate, so far as the republicans strategy goes. He was in a very different position tonight. Bush was exposed.

[complain jane]

2. I agree, and I think that the Repugs usually have

everything SO choreographed and scripted and screened and preened for every inch of a Bush appearance in public that this just totally blindsided his pompous, arrogant ass.

Someone asking him questions that was not a sycophantic ass-kisser for once.

I do think some of it's the dry drunk thing, honestly. Throughout my whole life I've known people who had the same predisposition and I think it's him too. He's got the mismanaged anger that's always there, that barely concealed hostility that's simmering just below the surface. He's got the sense of entitlement and he's got the short attention span and lack of communication skills. Oh yeah don't forget the ego.

All of which can't amount to much of anything other than a president who has a predisposition to barge into another country unprovoked, insult and destroy anyone who criticizes him, stumble his words in public and get angry on live television when he's held accountable.

[CornField]

28. He kept pausing and seemed shocked not to hear "Foreign Beers!"

[jobendorfer]

30. a rare chance for the public to make a side-by-side comparison

Bush's appearances are usually solo; on the rare occasions he
holds press conferences with a some dignitary, that dignitary
is usually neutral (although it is interesting how many foriegn
leaders present in a 2nd language better than Bush does in his
native tongue) -- and in all cases Bush's appearances are
scripted and stage-managed to the nth degree.

This is the first time in his Presidency that he's had to
stand within 10 feet of a hostile challenger and respond
extemperaneously. This goes straight to Bush's weaknesses,
and it doesn't suprise me at all that Kerry knocked him out
of the park. My teenage stepson could blow W. out of the park in
a debate.

What *does* surprise me is that a) Bush's strategists
agreed to these debates at all and b) 12 minutes into it,
the networks didn't experience some "catastrophic failure
with the video feed" that mysteriously got fixed 78 minutes
later.

J.

[Arugula Latte]

41. Question on the dry drunk/anger thing

Does anybody understand why dry drunks tend to be given to temper attacks? Is it brain deterioration that makes them snippy, or ... ?

[liberalmuse]

3. You know...

I think Bush was intimidated by Kerry. It is as if Bush knows Kerry is more fit for his job than he is. And I do agree that Bush was bad beyond even my expectations. I expected the bumbling, babbling, off-track answers, but not the anger, the pursed lips and the obvious defensiveness.

If you read enough about the guy and his history, you know he is really like this, an asshole posing as a nice guy, but to see him show his true colors like this when he's been able to hide it so well for these past few years, it was interesting.

I do believe he is deteriorating and probably should be declared mentally unfit for office.

[The Magistrate]

47. You Have Put Your Finger On It, Ma'am

Sen. Kerry intimidated the little fellow. Sen. Kerry has a most imposing presence, of which his height is only a portion. He has faced death, and dealt it personally, and that is something which will frighten any coward who finds himself in the presence of it. Sen. Kerry is, further, an extraordinarily intelligent and disciplined man, and the cringing little coward from Crawford has spent his whole life knowing he lacks either of these traits, and desperately trying to pretend they really do not matter. In short, Sen. Kerry is everything the little fellow is not, and tries to pretend he is better than....

"Born to any typical American family, W. would have spent his life in and out of jail on drunk and disorderlies, misdemeanor assaults, and similar petty beefs; a splendid and typical ornament of 'Cops'."

[VOX]

67. Good analysis, liberalmuse...

Last night, Kerry's eloquence and mastery made him seem like the president we should have right now!

Hopefully, that will be the reality come November 2.

:toast:

[carpe_vinum]

68. I've been questioning his state of mind for several years now.

A friend of mine is a forensic psychiatrist and she's convinced beyond reasonable doubt that the man snapped shortly after taking office. She's been pouring over his speeches and video footage and truly believes we're being lead by a madman. Or rather, we're being lead by the handlers of a madman. This from a lifelong Republican who isn't prone to hearing black helicopters.

[underpants]

4. Lehrere's questions were far from what either expected

The questions were from foreign policy perspectives that stump speeches don't come near. Good for Lehrer and Good for Kerry.

[opihimoimoi]

6. The question begs, DO we Trust a Drunk in the White House?

Go into any bar in America and ask that question....

[Tsiyu]

13. Yes yes yes yes yes

Bush has Saddam syndrome. He's been told "yes' too many times, and had so many KKKarl talking points crammed in his head, and has heard he's the son of Jeebus so many times he was shocked! Shocked, I tell you to find out that there are people who will actually ...gasp!...CHALLENGE him! And...gasp!....ask him tough questions!

"Where are all of my handlers?" his inner child was screaming the whole time. "To make me look good! Where are the hand-picked crowds, the applause of my minions? "

[TrustingDog]

65. exactly.-a big booboo on Rove's part not to climatize the chimp 2 reality

bush hole has been coddled and protected and had Nothing to stand on, on his own. He was pathetic and shivering and dumbfounded all alone up there...

[RobinA]

57. Yeah, the Questions

cleared favored Kerry. Most of them had a bit of a twist from the run-of-the-mill questions that required a bit of thought AND that the candidate actually have a grasp of what his position is.

[tedzbear]

5. Bush acted like the Great Oz suddenly revealed behind the curtain...

...desperately pulling the levers. He was completely horrified that Kerry had pulled back the curtain.

[graywarrior]

9. As an experienced dry drunk for a while

I recognized the symptoms in the man tonight.

[ngGale]

19. Bush surprised even me because...

I do know he is a good debater. Tonight was different, tonight he had to talk to America. Didn't think WE could be this lucky or why Bush was not prepared. Bush believed he could use the same stump speech, didn't work. One network said Bush had 20 minutes of material for a 90 minute debate. John Kerry, GREAT DEBATE!

[RobinA]

58. How is Bush

a good debater? The man can only think in the direction he is pointed on a given issue. A good debater has to be at least somewhat intellectually flexible.

[chelaque liberal]

55. What an amazingly accurate image!

[Demoiselle]

7. I think Bush is deteriorating...

He was awful tonight, far worse than 2000. And the snippets of the 1994 Texas Gov debate with Anne Richards show a far more competent speaker...He put together long, complex sentences, didn't misuse or garble words. And what was up with the pissed off expression? Jeez, it was practically constant. (I was watching the cspan split screen broadcast.)

[Dogmudgeon]

17. Yes ... he was FAR better against Gore in 2000

And Gore gave him a strong run for his money; I thought Gore actually won all the debates on substance, but Bush handled himself quite a bit better compared to tonight.

Bush broke down early tonight. Kerry was able to take his time and land his blows one-by-one, with no sense of urgency, and he took complete command of the room.

Bush made fewer verbal gaffes than I thought he would during a melt-down, but did anyone catch what he said about Missy What's-her-name? That he was "trying to decide how best to love her"?

This was a fiasco for the Republicans. Given their history of audacious, desperate reactions to challenges of even the smallest sort, I shudder (just a little) to think what they'll do next.

--bkl

[not fooled]

32. what they'll do next...

"Given their history of audacious, desperate reactions to challenges of even the smallest sort, I shudder (just a little) to think what they'll do next."

time for another terror alert!!!

[drdtroit]

38. It will be Orange by Saturday. n/t

[RobinA]

60. I Completely Disagree

I think he was at least as bad in 2000. Who can forget his "I don't know nuthin' 'bout no numbers like them boys in Washington" argument?"

[Dogmudgeon]

63. Bush didn't melt down in 2000

But you're right, he was a dumbshit then, too.

He just hid it better.

He won in 2000 by showing up, and the media did the rest. But this time, he crumbled, and made the job of establishing the Bush Superman myth much harder.

So, that's why I say he was far better in 2000. He stayed cool and played his own strongest hand. This year's was a complete humiliation, and it's going to take many days of spinning to undo the damage, if it can be undone at all.

--bkl

[CrowNotAngelGRL]

18. He seemed pissed off

definietly whenever Kerry was speaking and he tried so hard to defend his title as President. XOXO.

[CrowNotAngelGRL]

26. On Air America

a woman called in and said Bush did so bad because it was past his bedtime. ;)

[TheDonkey]

8. He was actually getting questions about HIS record!! *gasp* he's always

been that dumb though.


KERRY was above and beyond good though. He was excellent, truly excellent. Being on that stage in front of 10s of millions of people is nerve racking... it's tough for both of them. Kerry though was cool as a cat, bush was definetly showing his true self. I don't think he imploded but his record was finally an issue.

[yardwork]

10. Tonight we saw shrub unmasked

He's not used to having to think on his feet or respond to critical questions. He may not be dumb, but he's intellectually lazy and his campaign - which insulates him from any hostile questions - put him out of practice.

Kerry has run an open campaign where he and Edwards trade comments and barbs with protesters every step of the way. Kerry is in fighting trim.

shrub is a little old defeated man who couldn't control his temper.

[foo_bar]

27. you nailed it

[cheshire]

11. Yes what happened to the master debator. I was suprised too.

I wonder all the time if he is tired of playing this game.

[CrowNotAngelGRL]

22. People have said Bush is a debator too

but he seemed tonight to not be that great like Kerry was tonight. Like some people, I wonder where the debator was? :shrug:

[CrowNotAngelGRL]

23. People have said Bush is a debator too

but he seemed tonight to not be that great like Kerry was tonight. Like some people, I wonder where the debator was? :shrug: XOXO.

[Warren DeMontague]

12. Bush ran out of shit to say about halfway through the debate...

And once he started recycling his tired one-liners and cliches in that whiny, pissy voice (Who's the "manly man" now, huh?) it became abundantly clear to all but the most hard-headed observers that he wasn't even coming close to answering the questions presented to him. It wasn't pretty.

[CrowNotAngelGRL]

29. When he ran outta things to say

did you see how he was pleading with people like "please vote for me!"

[Lerkfish]

34. yes, this was even worse than I'd hoped....er....

that doesn't sound right, but I mean I was hoping Bush would expose himself as the arrogant snip maniac...but I never thought he would literally implode in on himself.

If it had been anyone else, it would have been exruciatingly painful to watch. Since it was him, though, I had an ear to ear grin.

;)

[Beetwasher]

14. It's The Deer In The Headlights Look As He Was Waiting For His Ear Piece

Advice to kick in...It was just too damn obvious...

[Ksec]

15. deteriorating is accurate

[grasswire]

16. I agree.

Kerry pulled punches because it would have seemed like overkill. Bush self-destructed from the very beginning.

[tblue37]

48. Yes, I think

Kerry was a bit afraid of being accused of running up the score. He was sharp and slammed the idiot, but did so in such a respectful way that no one could accuse him of beating up on the little guy.

Oh, and I loved the way he held onto Bush briefly when they came out and shook hands. It forced a side-by-side comparison that Kerry won hands down.

[comsymp]

69. Yeah, the handshake was beautifully played

Both the length and the way Kerry moved in so closely, ostensibly greeting him- Kerry literally towered over him.

[Sugarbleus]

20. I don't know what happened but I LOVE IT.

I can't speak for the rest of America, but the Bush I saw tonight is the very same Bush I see all the time. The few times I've seen him over TV, he's often being caught off guard by reporters or journalists...he constantly repeats his "mantra". I've seen him angry, I've seen him caught in lies, I've seen him stretch his body out over the damn lecturns/podiums in "earnest" preaching his drivel...

I know he can be a chameleon when it suits him, but the side we saw tonight is not new to this gal and I'm STOKED that other's are picking up on it now too...

[CrowNotAngelGRL]

36. Another thing I loved about Kerry

tonight was how he used his father against Bush. He's always talking about what a great Dad and guy his father is and tonight Kerry used him against him. Haha. I was like "omg!" when Kerry did that and just cracked up. Gotta love Kerry! :loveya:

[Sugarbleus]

40. YESSSSSS that was Brilliant!

I kept thinking he might also mention that Cheney had also warned against going into Iraq during the Gulf War. Or that the speech Georgie made in 2000 about NO NATION BUILDING... Woot

Great First Debate!!

[Crunchy Frog]

62. Clinton did the same thing to 41.

I wonder if that little gem was planned by the Clinton people. I kind of like the historical continuity there.

It may also have pushed some of his buttons and helped him to implode. I think he has some deep Oedipal issues.

[RobinA]

61. Couldn't Agree More

<<can't speak for the rest of America, but the Bush I saw tonight is the very same Bush I see all the time.>>

Absolutely! I don't see what the big meltdown is everyone is seeing. He was is usual self. Lousy, uninformed, lost when he has to say something they didn't cover in debate practice.

[Jacobin]

21. He knows he has completely fucked up an entire country

with 26 million people in it and it is not going to be fixed and if he wins, he has to watch tens and tens and tens of thousands of people get killed and HE did it.....I think its finally dawning on him what a fuck up he is and that thought is bursting in upon his denial.....he can't stand to hear it or think it, he surrounds himself with adoring crowds who won't say it but tonight, the truth, the reality of his monumental fuck up is sinking into his miserable lazy brain

[RafterMan]

24. It was s SHOCK allright

He's done.

Have Big Chief stick a pillow over him.

[regnaD kciN]

46. Careful!

"Have Big Chief stick a pillow over him."

There are people (including the Secret Service) who would likely see that as a call for assassination.

:scared:

[No Passaran]

25. Because he can't use "applause signs" to rest and think

He has thousands in attendance and millions at home and for two minutes he needs to talk but he's not used to it. He's used ot thousands of freepers applauding his every word which he uses to rest and read out of his script.
Tonight, he didn't have any of these things and clearly he was lost.

[Guaranteed]

31. Bush was just on the wrong side of the question.

He's done the wrong things, and had to defend the wrong side. Eventually, the truth has to come out.

[hexola]

33. ...and AWE!!! - /nt

[LiberalForEver]

35. Bush has had only 'invited' folks to all of

his appearances. I think he lost his edge by not being tested as he would have been had he appeared befor the general public.

[Justitia]

37. ATTN: Kerry Campaign!!! Coming right out of the gate swinging was a VERY

good idea!!!

Kerry instantly put Shrub on the defensive, which is his ultimate weakness when challenged. It completely rocked him back on his heels and he never recovered.

Having watched Shrub for many yrs here in TX (pity me), THIS IS THE MOST EFFECTIVE WAY TO KILL HIM IN A DEBATE.

He absolutely cannot tolerate being challenged, and the only way to push him over the precipice is to hit him HARD in the very beginning.
Kudos for doing exactly that.

Continue to hit him hard all throughout so he never regains his footing. He will surely implode, much as he did tonight.

Keep up the good work, and do it even harder next time. }(

[Justitia]

39. forgot to add - good use of Poppy Bush too - Shrub hates that - eom

[Sugarbleus]

42. When Kerry used "Dad" against him

Bush's eyelids started fluttering so fast, I thought his head might take flight.... LOL

[Justitia]

44. In TX, it is well known bringing up "Dad" makes him insane

which is ideal for ripping that "good ole boy", "amiable, likable" mask off (never understood it myself).

There are dark strains between father & son (no matter how publicly denied), and Jr. cannot abide his presidency being compared to Sr.'s.
This is one of his sore spots and it will make him spontaneously combust.

Fun to watch.

[donco6]

50. Well, he'll be having one more comparison . . .

One Termer.

[cmd]

43. The C student showed up tonight

Too bad, Georgie, that you didn't pay more attention in class. You may have learned something.

[onecitizen]

45. Do you remember

the Tim Russert interview where he was completely paralyzed? He acted a lot like that tonight. I think he was scared and scared of what Kerry might do or accuse him of.

[BootinUp]

49. What it comes down to IMHO

Bush had to defend his horrible record on foreign policy. And he seems to finally be getting weary of doing so.

[liberal N proud]

51. What you saw was the Real George W. Bush.

Will the imposter please sit down. We now know who the real shrub is!

[cmf]

52. I agree, but I'm a little worried

Bush thrives on lowered expectations, and he really lowered them last night. Any showing better than this for the next two debates, and the whores will trumpet him as the winner. JK is going to have to keep on his toes and try to catch Bush off guard in the next two matches.

[Francine Frensky]

53. Bush has been in a bubble-world of make-believe

and last night was a rude awakening. He seemed shocked and awed that he wasn't simply going to have his way in the debate.

And also, I think, like the Dean Scream, and Gore's sighing, that we have to push the media to acknowledge that SOMETHING IS WRONG WHEN THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES IS SLURRING HIS WORDS AND SEEMS LOST during a major speech.

We need to raise the issue of the president's mental health!!

[MrBenchley]

54. I was surprised at how poorly he did...

and I was expecting him to be a disaster....but a composed disaster. Instead we got George W. Twitchy, giggling nervously before he opened his mouth.

And when he had to listen and couldn't talk, he looked even more disturbed....there's a test for brain damage that is a drawing of a face with one side smirking and the other side smiling...people with hemisphere damage see the drawing as either all smirking or all scowling. Wish I could find it on the internet.

pResident toot looked like that drawing.

http://www.cwlpub.com/brain3.htm

[RobinA]

56. I Wasn't Shocked

Doesn't anyone remember the 2000 debates? He was AT LEAST as bad four years ago. I thought he had even improved slightly this time around. At least in the beginning. The first three times he repeats his talking points he sounds passable. After that he just sounds like a broken record.

[mimitabby]

70. the last debate

it seemed to me he defused Gore frequently by saying he would do the same thing. he was interested in the environment, and the little people. he couldn't really do that this time, since he's had 4 years to stomp all over the BS he spewed in those debates.
this time he had only his own record to stand on, which was rather
thin ice. or was it eggshells?

[illuminaughty]

59. This is W "unplugged"

If you saw the last press conference, all questions were very scripted, but the president still did not stay on the subject, the answers were not cohesive and he stumbled around. The last question was one snuck in by an NPR journalist. It was a hardball that suggested that there were many failures in this administration and no accountability.

This really pissed * off. He went on an angry rant that made no sense whatsoever. You can tell that anytime he is "winging" it and the subject matter is serious ,(not selling ribs), he is one angry, incoherent mofo.

[EndElectoral]

64. Bush apeared stupid, stuttering, exposed, unaware, defiant, full of hubris

[carpe_vinum]

66. I watched the whole thing with my mouth hanging open

Well, my mouth was hanging open when I wasn't drinking. I couldn't believe what a bad start Bush had. And it only went downhill from there. I think media commentary had to do some quick thinking this morning. I bet they had their stories written before the debate started and suddenly found themselves having to pull an all-nighter on the re-writes.

[Skittles]

71. Bush is as dumb as a bag of hammers

nt