Tonight's Debate, I feel more and more strongly, is a trap for Kerry

[greekspeak]

This is not going to be a debate. ShrubCo made all the rules, stupid rules like a child would make in a game of tag, with "bases" and "oli-oli-oxen free." Bush has never lost a debate, I hear. How could he? Has he EVER participated in a debate, or have they all been these publicity stunts? I see nothing major in the media about how Shrub has rigged this thing up with his silly rules. Olbermann, I think I saw, brought this up, but so far nothing else. If anything does come out, I have a feeling it will be buried on page F-19 or in a "news" ticker as the "news" station goes to commercial. Why in HELL did the democrats agree to this BS? The democratic lapdogs triumph again.

[markus]

1. Bad: Fox controls the pool cameras

A really bad performance tonight could end his campaign. The polls would collapse, and people would flee like they did from Dukakis.

Good:

The only debate Bush is believed to have "lost" was his second gubernatorial debates, his only set as an incumbent.

[Carolinian]

Calm down. Kennedy lost the debate against Nixon but he

made such an impression on the American people they went out and voted for him. If Kerry doesn't gain from the debates it will be because of the spin and not because of the score.

[TexasSissy]

5. No, he didn't. Radio listeners thought Nixon won. TV watchers thought

Kennedy won. The age of TV took over from radio, which is where we are now. There was no consensus that Nixon won that debate.

[Carolinian]

6. The debate was scored for Nixon.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

10. By Who... Kennedy Was Clearly The Aggressor And Had The Best One Liners

nt

[TexasSissy]

11. By whom?

Every documentary and pundit discussion about this matter that I've heard since the 1960's - every single one - has stated what I just stated above: radio listeners thought Nixon won; TV watchers and viewers in person thought Kennedy won. That was one of the signs that the era of TV had taken over the era of radio.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

13. You Have It right...

It didn't hurt that Kennedy was a "stud" and Nixon was a "dud"....

[calico1]

25. You are correct. That is what I have always heard

and read. Nixon sounded better if you listened on the radio and radio listeners favored him more. But Kennedy looked much better, much more confident if you watched on TV. Nixon had some bad makeup on. He either hadn't shaved or not well enough because stubble was coming through his makeup plus he was sweating profusely and appeared nervous and jittery. He looked terrible on TV. Kennedy looked handsome, fresh, confident. Not that he sounded like an idiot, but clearly his physical appearance vs. Nixon's terrible one is what mostly helped tip the debate to Kennedy. You also have to remember that is was one of the closest elections in history. Kennedy barely won so its not like he trounced Nixon.

[Carolinian]

32. Nixon did a whistle stop train tour like Truman and was

exhausted by the time the debates rolled around. Kennedy was rested and tanned. The actual debate was scored for Nixon but Kennedy gained with the voters.

[Cha]

52. We're a fickle bunch!

:)

[eleanor]

40. Tricky Dick

refused to wear makeup which exaggerated his 5 o'clock shadow and "shadowed" him the rest of his career. When he began his first term as pRes in '68, the cartoonist HerbBlock said he would give him a clean look to begin - but it didn't last. I forget exactly when Herb started giving him the beard again ...

[Cha]

51. I was just going to write some of that info..

but you said it so well, thank you.

[nostamj]

54. actually, Nixon REFUSED to wear any make-up

this was (I believe) referenced in the c-span special on debates recently.

[jmowreader]

61. Apparently neither one had any makeup on

http://www.museum.tv/archives/etv/K/htmlK/kennedy-nixon/kennedy-nixon.htm

The Great Debates marked television's grand entrance into presidential politics. They afforded the first real opportunity for voters to see their candidates in competition, and the visual contrast was dramatic. In August, Nixon had seriously injured his knee and spent two weeks in the hospital. By the time of the first debate he was still twenty pounds underweight, his pallor still poor. He arrived at the debate in an ill-fitting shirt, and refused make-up to improve his color and lighten his perpetual "5:00 o'clock shadow." Kennedy, by contrast, had spent early September campaigning in California. He was tan and confident and well-rested. "I had never seen him looking so fit," Nixon later wrote.

In another page I found, it said Kennedy refused any "cosmetic help" and Nixon refused because Kennedy had refused. Unfortunately for Nixon, he looked like shit and really needed some work.

[Carolinian]

38. By the group responsible for SCORING the debate. Maybe

the League of Women Voters? I just checked and it's in my son's 8th grade history book that Nixon won.

[TexasSissy]

48. The heck you say! History book written by a Repub, maybe?

[Carolinian]

49. Maybe. It's worth a fact check, no?

[GingerSnaps]

16. Kennedy did not lose the debate against Nixon

Nixon started sweating and Kennedy won the debate. Where did you get that bit of information at?

[Carolinian]

59. Verified in my son's 8th grade history book.

[Barney Rocks]

60. Win for Nixon,

because more people listened on the radio than watched on TV. My family didn't have TV until 1969. They were getting more and more popular in 1960, but the majority of people were still getting their information from the radio.

It took a while to get the info out that Nixon had looked poor on TV (due to the lack of make-up). Kind of funny, Nixon thought make-up would make him look unnatural--but you need makeup to look natural on TV. Kennedy was more media savvy. So he deserved to get people's votes.

My mother always felt bad--she meant to vote for Kennedy but she did not get out--she was very very pregnant during that election and was not feeling well (hard pregnancy--my brother--not me) and just felt to sick to go vote. 1960 was the only time in her life she didn't turnout and she has always regretted it.

[napi21]

55. Fox controls the camers because it's their turn.

Guest on cspan this morning who was a retired NBC event producer who was involved in the presidential debates from 1974 to 1996.

It was quite an interesting session with a lot of good caller questions.

There are pool cameras that are controlled by one network, and the networks take turns for who has the pool cameras for each debate. There are also network cameras. They are supposed to keep them capped, and as this guy was saing this, he was smiling. He said that's what was meant when the networks said they weren't going to promise to follow the rules in the agreement letter. "Oops, somehow that cap just came off!" He said that's how you will see different short shots from different angles, on the different chanels.

[demokatgurrl]

2. Well it's out there a LITTLE :

From my slate news e-mail:


NYT details the much-bemoaned ground rules the candidates have agreed to--for instance, questions from the candidates must be "rhetorical." Meanwhile, the LAT, as is its habit, actually posts the agreement.

http://www.latimes.com/media/acrobat/2004-09/14450433.pdf

[SangamonTaylor]

3. it's a trap!

Seriously though.....I wouldn't be too concerned...the rules are just a silly attempt to put lipstick on a pig.

[asjr]

8. The rules were set by the administration. Shrub is hoping

some "rules" are broken so he can get out of doing the other two debates.

[flordehinojos]

4. More than "stupid rules like a child would make in a game of tag"

the rules made by ShrubCo for this HIGH THEATER are a dictator's straightjacketing of KERRY and of our democracy. The media are complicit enablers in the establishing of bush's dictatorship on America. I wonder how compliant they are going to be when he starts dictating far more than he has up to this point what they can and cannot say in the media mediums.

[greekspeak]

12. I agree with everything you say in your post

Including the effect that these rules have. Sure they are the tools of a third-rate wanna be dictator, enabled by his whores in the media. I would think the Pukes could come up with a more convincing dictator figure to put in the WH. Shrub is like a slap-stick version of a dictator, a strutting swaggering goofball with a Napoleon and God complex, decked out in a flightsuit instead of the garb of a generalissimo. I guess though that he was the only guy on whom the cabal could attach strings to make their Shrub marionette dance the way they wanted.

That said, at their core, these are childish, outlandish rules like kids make up on the playground for their little games....but writ large.

[orpupilofnature57]

24. Todays agony,tomorrows we can talk, about how he cheats

Just by talking about * in the context of being weak and using his elevator shoes,fox news and another example of *'s inability to deal without a stacked deck.Cause and effect, cameras can't fuck that up.

[liberalmuse]

7. It will be fine.

Have a little faith in Kerry. He knows how to work this.

[greekspeak]

17. Its not Kerry in whom I lack faith

I know Kerry could win this debate with one proverbial hand tied behind his back. Unfortunately, all his limbs are tied together this time on a stake, and there is a gag in his mouth. Kerry's oratorical skills are far superior to Shrub's. He is far more intellegent, and has a better stage presence. But none of this matters with these rules. Its going to take more than faith in Kerry to win this...it is going to take a miracle.

[TexasSissy]

9. I couldn't agree more. I hate to say it, but....

we're in trouble. I typically don't say these sorts of negative things, but when I learned that Fox is controlling the cameras, that sort of did it for me. The whole thing is a setup and being controlled by Bush, and the Dems allowed it. The Dems are still being manipulated & controlled by the Repubs, which I guess is why the Repubs control the executive, legislative, federal judicial branches of the government, and now the intelligence, as well. I don't want to say "we're doomed," but.....sorry for the negativity. This is the first time I've really been this way. Up til now I was the one in the room telling everyone it was just Repub talking points, sound bites, statistics favor us, etc., etc. But now, unless a miracle happens tonight, I think -- well, I guess I've said what I think.

Quick, someone spank me if I'm being too pessimistic about this! I hope my view is warped, but I fear it is not.

[Touchdown]

46. Your post calls for another Star Wars pic.

"We're DOOMED!"



Really, let's hand wring when it's over. There's nothing that can be done now. Kerry's going in no matter what we say. He must treasure what he has learned. Save him, it can.:evilgrin:

[robbedvoter]

14. I agree - and not out of lack of faith in Kerry

The Moderate Independent correctly predicted the Faux traps in the primaries and they are doing it again:

 http://www.moderateindependent.com/v2i18chumpcheck3.htm

Anyway, let's all watch it on Comedy Central - TDS covers it with Clark and ugh...Giuliani.

[Cha]

53. Clark will outshine

rudy crudy.

[MatrixEscape]

15. A trap?

I see it as Newthink. That is, where I used to think of a debate as a heated discussion between two, or more, parties, I now see a bi-partisan press conference in several parts.

My understanding is that both parties agreed, (and have agreed in the recent past) to the rules partially because they want to assure that "all your bases belong to us". The other aspect being purely strategical.

Like it or not, when you remove other parties from a debate, you also eliminate their issues, regardless of how complex having more than two parties can be. There is obvious collusion here. Disenfranchisement is a becoming way of life in America these days. I can see the reasoning behind it though.

That aside, I support Kerry and I don't think he should be underestimated when going into battle. I think of it as a major opportunity, not a trap. He will have more tests as President, so we should have confidence in our picture of him, not the media's.

Don't worry so much ;)

[DoYouEverWonder]

18. You think a guy you survived driving swift boats

can't survive the Chimp?

Of course, no matter what happens the talking airheads are going to say Bush won.

Relax and enjoy the show. And then make as much noise as possible afterward about how great Kerry did and how awful W was. We don't need to do the repugs job for them by criticizing ever move Kerry makes. We need to redirect that energy and focus on every move W makes. I'm sure he'll give us plenty to work with.

[beaconess]

45. THANK You!

[Name removed]

19. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[greekspeak]

23. Cute

Enjoy your 10 minutes of fame here at DU, dear heart.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

28. When it goes back to free republic

the dialog of our site and their's will be elevated

[calico1]

30. Buh bye Freeper.

:nuke:

[Wright Patman]

20. The bad news is

that * will be reselected and Kerry may well even be complicit in the whole process to make sure that occurs. He certainly has campaigned as if he is a "stooge" in a pro wrestling match. Skull & Bones has secrets of which we know nothing. Throwing an election between "brothers" may be one of them.

The good news is that * will be presiding over a collapsing economic and financial edifice here in the "homeland" once known as the mighty U.S. economy. I say "good news" because it will then be clear to everyone in the world, including those in the U.S., that * is the new Herbert Hoover. He is Herbert Hoover with an attitude. The attitude is "I've got mine" and "why weren't you born rich like me?"

* will continue to say 9-11 changed everything, including his ability to "make it all better" economically. But that will elicit more calls for a military response to defeat "terra" on every continent.

Further good news is that in order to start more wars (unless he fires off all the nukes and then the world as we know it will be gone), he will need to broach the topic of conscription.

When the youth finally understand that they are about to be sent to possibly die for Shrubco, it will require bringing even more of the troops stationed overseas to be able to put down the insurrection of the youth on our soil.

[ladjf]

26. Your post is very similar to Nader's rationale in 2000.

What makes you think that another four years of continuing disastrous moves by BushCo would teach his followers anything. They would undoubtedly think that he had done a wonderful job of everything, just as they do now.

[SammyWinstonJack]

35. You're a little ray of sunshine are you?

[Wright Patman]

42. I didn't start this thread

about Kerry walking into a trap. Ask yourself why he would walk into a trap knowing it is a trap. Ask yourself why he would set himself up for the Swift Boat smear. I could go on.

I will vote for Kerry, but I am in Texas. So my vote is meaningless in the overall scheme of things. I admit I was never enthusiastic about him, but he is far preferable to the Anglo-Saxon "Sopranos" who have been destroying the world for nearly four years.

Where did I ever suggest support for Nader? I am just trying to face the reality of the totalitarian dictatorship descending upon us. There comes a time in every collapsing society when the ballot box becomes irrelevant, if that time hasn't already come.

We should not put blind faith in Kerry. We should watch his every move for evidence of collusion with the "global war machine" and I have seen too much evidence of this already.

[emulatorloo]

36. Actively Campaigning against Kerry at DU? Saying he is complicit w GWB?

Not a good idea.

[Bridget Burke]

37. So we should just give up now.....

Let's not even bother to vote.

Then Nader can be elected in 2008 & we'll all be saved!

[Onlooker]

21. The Democrats want three debates

The Democrats want three debates. Bush wants none. The Democrats are trying to give him as little room as possible to avoid the debates. Because the Kerry campaign has agreed to all Bush's demands, Bush's only way to get out of a debate is to take issue with the nonpartisan debate commission, and that will backfire on him.

Bush's sleazy history of debates is well known, and I think the Dems will be prepared for just about anything (especially if they've been reading DU :)). Bush did not defeat Gore in the debates; the Dems defeated Gore by trying to remake him every couple of weeks. Kerry remains Kerry, which means he's smarter, faster, and tougher than Bush. The biggest challenge for Kerry will be to throw back into Bush's face whatever shit Bush throws at him.

[riverwalker]

22. FOX was whining this morning

because although they will supply the main feed, the other networks said if they get shots with their own cameras, they will also use them. Basically, they said screw you, to FOX. So the camera thing will not be as controlling as we think, and as they wanted.

[crispini]

27. Yes!

Good to know. Makes me feel better. Was also worried about Faux controlling the cameras.

[GreenArrow]

29. a trap? The hunter will get captured by the game.

Kerry is going to win this.

[RobinA]

31. What Trap?

The rules stink of course, but I'm not seeing the "trap." What's Kerry going to be doing in the background that everyone is afraid FOX will show? He knows how to behave in public. The WORST that can happen is that these two will end in an honest tie. Rules or no rules, Bush can't possibily best Kerry in reality. And rules of no rules, unless Bush has a meltdown, he will be declared the winner. There's no need for a "trap" here.

[zulchzulu]

33. I completely disagree

It's going to be basically that both camps will think their guy won. But I also think that undecideds or those that have not been paying much attention to this race will see Bush for what he is...a phoney liar.

Fox and MSNBC will say that Bush won. Hell, they've already written the copy and it's loaded up on their teleprompters for this weekend's shows. Who fucking cares about them. The Koolaid drinkers for Chimpy already can say that Bush is "just like them" and all that crap. Bush could cut a fart and have drool spilling out of his formerly-coked-up nose and they's say he looked cute.

But I think the other media channels may be in for a surprise and actually attempt to honestly assess that Kerry kicked Bush's butt tonight. Two more to go and the Rove camp will be scrambling.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

34. What If It Was A Wet Fart? (nt)

[ClassWarrior]

43. I tell ya, Bush is going to belch loudly, unzip his fly...

...and pee on JK's leg to prove he's the kind of guy you want to fall off the wagon with.

23.

[Kazak]

39. I say, break the rules and let 'em have it...

then, when Bush* uses it as an excuse to back out of the rest of the debates, make the already scheduled time slots hour and a half long national Kerry rallys. :D

[ClassWarrior]

41. Yeah, the whole election is a trap for the Dem candidate.

RepubliCONs lying, cheating, and stealing?? I'm shocked, I tell you. SHOCKED!!

23.

[beaconess]

44. Let's not roll over and play dead before the debate even STARTS

Damn! Give Kerry some credit!

[vickie]

50. Agreed. Stop this defeatist non-sense!

[demwing]

47. Please - Don't Get So Sweaty!

Jujitso:
"A method of self-defense without weapons that was developed in China and Japan; holds and blows are supplemented by clever use of the attacker's own weight and strength."

John Kerry agreed to do whatever it took to get Shrubya out into the sacrificial arena.

Barring some major error on Kerry's part, Kerry gains points with these debates. Bush gains nothing.

If, however, Bush makes a gaffe, he'll lose point. Big points.

Add it up. Kerry gains with a passing grade, Bush does not. And, the potential for Bush to lose points is great, especially against Kerry, who is no wonkish Al Gore. This man succeeds at nearly everything he does. have faith. Let Kerry use Bush's rules and strategy against him. Trust in the force, young Skywalkers!

[goodboy]

56. We used to make up rules before a fight, (no biting, no pinching, no

hair pulling etc...) But once the first punch is thrown, all that shit goes out the window. I wanna see Kerry TRASH bush...break all the rules...FUCK HIM, this is his only chance.

[stoptheinsanity]

57. Relax.....Go to your quiet place......

Relax guys. Kerry will be fine. The media will spin this *'s way anyway, but what Kerry says will still impact the undecided viewers. If all Kerry says is that Saddam had nothing to do with al Quida, it will educate an enormous amount of people that still believe there was some connection.

The real factor is not what answers are given, but what questions are asked. If Lehrer throws softball questions to both candidates, this is just going to be an ad war tonight. But, if Lehrer asks point blank questions to both candidates, * is going to have to come up with some answer for abandoning the search for OBL and going into Iraq. Kerry will have a chance to disspell the flip-flop argument and show how Bush has flip-flopped repeatedly, all in front of 50 million people! This is an opportunity for Kerry, not anything to fear.

Finally, all * has is Iraq and tax cuts. The next two debates will be a big uphill battle for *. Kerry has alot of ammunition for all the debates, but especially the last two.

Relax.....Relax...

[ollie3]

58. Kerry wins in a tie

Don't buy into the spinning that the Reps are doing! They would like us to believe that Bush wins in a tie. See, that's lowering the expectations again for Bush. Bush doesn't have to win to win. And Kerry needs a knock-out punch, just winning won't win if you're Kerry. Bullshit!

Kerry wins in a tie because if Kerry comes off presidential, trustworthy, and direct....he will appeal to millions of voters who don't particularly like Bush but have been led to believe Kerry is a flip flopping untrustworthy wimp. Kerry won't look like that, in fact many of these folks will get more comfortable considering Kerry as a positive alternative to Bush. This won't happen instantly, or even over-night. It will take awhile to sink in. But, between now and the election they will start to consider Kerry's message more seriously. And kerry will win. It won't be close.

That's how Kerry wins in a tie. The way the rules of the debate are structured, don't expect either candidate to swerve from his old campaign stump. However, since the Swifties and the Reps have painted Kerry so negatively, when people see Kerry is not that bad, Kerry will clean up.