HEADS UP: A phenomenon we need to be aware of

[WilliamPitt]

A Catholic version of the Swifties? Via Zogby:

===

http://www.zogby.com/Soundbites/ReadClips.dbm?ID=9594

(9/26/2004) By Frank Reilly, Minneapolis Star Tribune

(snip)

The Star Tribune analysis of "faith based politics" (Sept. 20) suffers from old information about the Catholic vote. The Zogby poll of Minnesota voters released Sept. 6 indicates that Catholics, who supported Senator John Kerry by a margin of 48 to 42 percent in the Star Tribune's July Minnesota poll, now are with President George Bush by a startling 60 to 36 percent.

One organization that has worked hard to make it that way is "Relevant Radio," 1330 AM, the new right-wing Catholic voice of God in town--and, it should be noted, a presence in swing states Wisconsin, Iowa, and Pennsylvania, where Catholics also are strongly pro-Bush.

To whatever extent Relevant Radio is making a difference, it does so both by its selection of issues for discussion and and by its nervous, self-conscious--and, I think, illegal--advocacy for Bush.

...more...

[PROGRESSIVE1]

1. How can this crap be so???

:argh:

Why are Catholics voting for a CRIMINAL???

[MsTryska]

20. Not only a criminal....but a heathen.

dubya ain't catholic - he's going straight to hell.

[camaro69]

33. Not just Catholics

Protestants, Evangelicals, Pentacostals, and Non-Denominationals too. Why hasn't Edwards gone in for Kerry on these groups. They're not only religious but they are usually active voters.

[lancdem]

2. That Zogby poll was done right after the RNC

Kerry may have work to do among Catholics, but I suspect the numbers aren't that bad now.

[hippiegranny]

3. what next for this beleagered religion

first pedophile priests, now campaigning for murderers.

[Mountainman]

11. The Pope said the Iraq war was immoral and the divide between the rich and

poor is also wrong but who listens to him? I guess talk radio is infallible and the Pope isn't anymore.

[Barney Rocks]

4. This is the first time

I have felt very nervous. I have read in the past that the vote usually goes to the candidate that the Catholics swing to. I am just going to keep my fingers crossed that this poll is WRONG.

I do not understand it. Nearly everyone I know is voting for Kerry. But I have seen "polls" claiming that women favor Bush, younger voters favor Bush, veterans favor Bush and now Catholics favor Bush? These polls have to be wrong. There is no way that all these groups have been lost?

[lancdem]

5. As I said, that poll is several weeks old

and was done right after the RNC.

[Barney Rocks]

14. thanks for pointing

that out. I got so upset I skipped right over that. It makes me feel a little better.

[WilliamPitt]

6. "Nearly everyone I know is voting for Kerry."

Careful. Sounds like Pauline Kael's reaction to Richard Nixon's landslide presidential victory over George McGovern in 1972: "How can that be?" she supposedly said. "No one I know voted for Nixon."

[Barney Rocks]

15. Yes. I guess the

question is--am I completely out-of-touch or do the people I know represent the reality on the ground? As I do not know people in all 50 states and all that, I am not an accurate indicator. But I do have plenty of friends for Kerry--which does give me a good feeling. However, the caveat is that I work in environmental science--most of the people I know and work with hate Bush. I guess that I may be insulated.

[deckerd]

44. I tried to caution people bout this & got a ration of s* in another thread

See "How is this Not Statistically Significant?" at:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x912805

I realize it's heresy and I'll be alerted for saying this, but Kerry
didn't keep the pressure up when it mattered, in August, and now the
momentum amongst undecideds is with *.

:(

These people were NEVER "against" Bush to begin with and our hopes
were that they'd remain undecided, because late undecideds usually
break for the challenger. Early undecideds breaking for an incumbent
who is "on the rebound" can easily create a landslide where the conditions are not ripe for one.

It all depends on Kerry's performance in the debates, and we all know
how that will turn out... If Kerry even shows up for a second debate
he could get a big spike in popularity simply for staying in the ballgame.

[mzmolly]

7. Can Kerry take out ads on this station?

I hear Repug ads on Air America so why not?

[featherman]

8. A shift in the white Catholic vote could be a major factor

in MN, WI, IA, OH. I have heard from my Catholic friends that some priests are sermonizing to vote Bush and the GOP.

[CityDem]

32. May they are the so called Reagan Democrats

Didn't Reagan carry these mid-west catholic voters in 80 and 84? Looks like Bush is doing well with this group if Zogby is to be believed.

[wellstone dem]

47. Not my

Minnesota Parish Priest.

[Raven]

9. Hi Sweetie!

Rest easy...there is no "catholic vote" anymore. There is a fundamentalist vote and there may be catholics in that group...but they have never been with us.

I remind you of the conversation I had about a month ago (during canvassing) with a very thoughtful conservative catholic woman who admitted that she had voted for Bush in 2000 because of his position on abortion and had then realized what a bad mistake that had been.

In my opinion, jobs, health care, education and the ecomony trumps voting "catholic" in this election, especially since the leaders of the Catholic Church have thoroughly discredited themselves in connection with the abuse of children...they cannot be believed and will not be followed by most thinking people.

[WillyT]

10. How Do They Avoid Losing Their Tax Exempt Status ???

Or do they have tax exempt status???

:shrug:

[Fuzzy LaRue]

13. Freedom of Religion does not trump Freedom of Speech.

As long as campaigning by the candidates themselves does not take place on church property I guess they can support whoever they want.
They can pontificate from the pulpit.

I can understand fundamentalists going for Bush in a big way, but I don't get why Catholics would break in that direction.

[WillyT]

21. Um... Ya Might Wanna Take A Look At This:

<snip>

Q. What types of activities are prohibited under the IRS Code?

A. Church endorsements of candidates and statements of opposition to candidates are strictly forbidden and can result in revocation of a church's tax-exempt status. (However, clergy may endorse candidates as individuals in forums outside the church or work on behalf of candidates during their personal time.)

In addition, churches may not contribute money to candidates, solicit contributions on their behalf or donate to candidates' political action committees. Churches may not set up their own PACs.

Q. What constitutes an endorsement or opposition to a candidate?

A. Prohibited activities may include letters of endorsement or opposition printed on church letterhead, church-sponsored distribution of campaign literature, pastors advising congregants to vote for or against candidates from the pulpit, the display of campaign signs on church property and other activities that could be construed as endorsing or opposing a candidate.

Q. What is the penalty if a church violates this standard?

A. Penalties can include loss of tax-exempt status or financial penalties imposed on church officials.

<snip>

Link: http://www.au.org/site/PageServer?pagename=resources_pastorsguide

Now this radio station probably has its own lawyers, and has probably put enough distance between itself and the church, but...

It's awfully close!

:shrug:

[Fuzzy LaRue]

24. No Argument from me. n/t

[johnnie]

12. This is all based on one issue

The problem is, they want only part of the whole issue. Bush is supposedly against "slaughtering babies" as they put it. Nevermind that our grown children are being slaughtered in an unjustifiable war, children in Iraq and Afghanistan are being slaughtered by the hundreds and innocent adults are being put to death because they can't afford proper defense lawyers right here in our own Country.
These fundies that support bush because he is "born again" are out for their personal agenda and do not a give a shit about the good of mankind. They don't give a shit about the "unborn babies". It is an easy "fight" for them because you don't have to do anything but bitch about it and it makes them think that because they choose a simple cause like that, they will be strutting into the pearly gates like their shit doesn't stink.
I have a shirt that I am going to tell them to put on me when I die that says "See, I told you so". Then all these fundies who are freaking out when they croak can read my shirt instead of me telling them that they are all whacked.

[ScreamingMeemie]

16. That's utter crap. As a Catholic I have to say those numbers are skewed

crazily. Many Catholics, in my opinion, are beginning to realize that they can not vote this year based on a single issue; that issue typically being abortion. I know of a number of classmates of my daughter's who are voting for Kerry and/or staying home. Of course, there are still those who are voting for Bush...but I'm working on them.

[camaro69]

34. Most Catholics I know

say that is THE ONE reason they can vote Repug. They are torn, and the repugs have done a good job planting guilt for being on the side of abortion.

[NewYorkerfromMass]

35. guilt for abortion is nothing compared to

the guilt of killing people in wars and in state executions.
We know those are murders.

[ScreamingMeemie]

36. Bingo! The Catholic Teachings on War prohibit us (Catholics) from being

supportive of this war no matter how much the "Charismatic" Catholics wish to twist it.

[Buck Rabbit]

17. Hmmm, can we find one to ask?

Does anyone know a former Kerry Dem who has switched to Bush to ask?

On the Bush side we have:

+Anti-Gay
+Anti-Abortion

Against Bush:
-Death Penalty
-Pre-emptive war chastized by pope
-Fundie Christians hatred of catholics
-----------------------------------------------
For Kerry:

+A catholic married to a catholic
+Against gay marriage
+Anti-Death Penalty

Against Kerry
-Support of Gay civil union
-Pro choice


To me Kerry would seem to win on Catholic issues, but not being a Catholic anymore and with the Catholics in my family all supporting Kerry, I am not sure which of these factors is receiving the extra weighting to tip the scale to Bush.

[ScreamingMeemie]

18. If anything, at least in my area, it's tipping in the other direction...

and I am a churchgoing Catholic.

[Romulus]

19. obviously another "attack on Kerry" by a Du'er

OK, sarcasm off.

Thanks's for bringing this to our attention.

[tomfodw]

22. The Catholic church, as an institution, has come down to...

...caring about only one single issue - abortion. Anything else - death penalty, economic inequality, war, terrorism - has taken a back seat. (Well, there's always the issue of escaping responsibility for their campaign of child rape, too.) Kerry refuses to toe their line about abortion, thinking (rightly) that he is a legislator in a pluralistic, democratic country where he has to think about what's best for the country as a whole. The Catholic church is hierarchical and anti-democratic, so it can't conceive of how anyone can put the country above the narrow dictates of a self-selected, self-promoting group of isolated, lifeless old men (even the young ones).

(Note: I have nothing against the Catholic faith; the Catholic church as an institution is, in my opinion, a fair target.)

[Ksec]

29. exactly. Its that one issue that drives the votes to the rethugs.

[n2mark]

23. An explanation that may help...

This might serve as an explanation--

I read this in our church bulletin last Sunday

GUIDELINES FOR CATHOLIC VOTERS:

The Catholic church teaches that we have a moral obligation to vote. We have the right to vote our conscience but in matters of morals, we must conform our conscience to the truths God reveals. The Catholic Church as a mjaor moral leader in the world, has the duty to offer governments God's true vision.

They also said the founding fathers sought to separate church and State in the sense of prohibiting any church from becoming the official church of the nation. It was never meant to censure what churches could preach. The five issues that the Church teaches as morally wrong and therfore not negotiable are:

- Abortion and infanticide
- Euthansia (Mercy Killing)
- Embryonic stem cell research
- Human cloning
- Homosexual unions

There are many other issues, but these are the only non-negotiable ones. If no candidate for a particular office meets all the criteria you have the choice to vote for the one who
appears least likely to promote an immoral agenda, write in your candidate or just not vote at all for that particular office.

I read the bulletin before Mass, needless to say I walked out.

[mbee]

25. My parents send me articles from National Catholic

Reporter or a name something like that and some of the articles compare what this administration has done to Nazi Germany! Chilling!

[NewYorkerfromMass]

26. This is bullshit. Catholics don't start wars and execute state prisoners

and supporting a woman's right to the best medical care possible is the most Catholic and Christian thing a true Catholic can do.
For true Catholics, tolerance and 'live and let live', are the golden rules.

Drivng thru Pennsylvania a couple weeks back, I saw a B/C car that also had this: You can't be Catholic AND pro-abortion. I guarantee you that person was not a true Catholic.

[NewYorkerfromMass]

27. Also: True Catholics heed their conscience- it is a very personal religion

From the link:

the Catholic Church also teaches solemnly that people are obliged to form their conscience carefully and
responsibly and to follow it as the bottom line in every moral decision.

http://www.dignityusa.org/faq.html#8

[stoptheinsanity]

30. Abortion. B/C style!

B/C support abortion . . . they just delay it 18 or so years!

[newyawker99]

51. Hi kerrywinsin2004!!

Welcome to DU!! :toast:

[Ksec]

28. How do these political fuks get out of paying taxes?

Correct me if Im wrong but arent the "religious " orgs and not political ones? Ever watch the 700 club whore for Boosh?

Are these orgs still tax free?

[mzmolly]

31. 40% of African American male voters in Milwaukee are voting for *

as of today according to polls.

More women are voting for * then in the last election as well.

Why you ask? 911 ...

Another "phenomenon" ??? NOPE the R's are better at "Marketing" ... plain and simple fact.

We best get on the stick or we're in for 4 more.

[Barney Rocks]

39. OK that is the last

straw. The polls are completely bogus. There is just no way!

I am generally not one of those people who has been accusing the pollsters of being partisan (My first impulse is to give them the benefit of the doubt for trying to do a good job and wanting to get it right), I have been cheering myself by the knowledge that polls are never that accurate until close to the actual election. But this is too much. I think there may be some kind of conspiracy to discourage us.

[NewYorkerfromMass]

40. It's a typo. I believe it's

40 African American male voters in Milwaukee.

[mzmolly]

43. Bush is leading in Wisconsin because the AA vote is going to *

:shrug:

I guess I'd rather assume we have some serious work to do!

;)

[atommom]

37. A Catholic friend told me he'd no longer be allowed to take Communion

if he voted for a pro-choice candidate. The church is putting the screws to its faithful.

[ScreamingMeemie]

38. My church has never ever said this. I am still free to vote for whom

I wish...with no religious repercussions. My decisions are between me and God.

[CBHagman]

41. I'm a practicing Catholic, and this is the first I've heard of it.

No signs of campaigning at church, though our bishop is a little too comfy with the Bush administration, which has assiduously (and cynically) courted the Catholic community.

And anecdotal evidence suggests that there are plenty of Kerry supporters in the church.

But keep working for Kerry!

[sadiesworld]

42. Our local rag is pounding this issue.

To be fair, the newspaper is not that bad (in general or on this issue specifically) but the fact that they even deem it relevant to continue to link Catholicism and the election sickens me.

The Courier Journal
Louisville, KY

[ItsMyParty]

45. Well, does this finally mean that Pitt is telling us Kerry is finished

You heard it first here. Looks like Kerry just can't fight all that is out there. He has lost. He is done. Don't bother going to the polls. Goodnight. I thought Will was inside the Kerry campaign and thus, this must be the word that we should expect defeat.

[WilliamPitt]

50. pzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzcheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeezzzzz

[jumpstart33]

46. Call Jimmy Breslin! Quick!

He'll put them in their place.

[David Zephyr]

48. Groan. Thanks for the Heads Up, William

These bastards are very, very good at tearing down their opponents.

When one has a candidate as unflattering as GW Bush, the only way to win is to destroy the opponent.

[cap]

49. this is true...

this is happening in my church...