If Howard Dean Were the Candidate . . .

[sandersadu]

http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/09/27/howard.dean.tm/index.html

This is an interesting article. Let me stipulate that I'm fully behind Kerry, have donated $$, and have called voters.

Even after we win on Nov. 2, the DNC and we voters would be well advised to have an extended primary season so that candidates views are better fleshed out, and one candidate doesn't win simply b/c of the "band-wagon effect."

If Kerry wins, no harm, no foul. If he loses, there's going to be total civil war in the Democratic Party - - and maybe that's a good thing.

[Dookus]

1. oh whee!

[ProudToBeLiberal]

2. move on folks we know what dookus views are nt.

[Toucano]

4. Worth 1,000 words! n/t

[roseBudd]

3. I disagree, the GOP wanted to be up against Dean

The memme would have been NO foreign policy experience.

They'd have feminized Dean even more than Kerry.

[LittleClarkie]

5. Agreed

Our local radio conservative was seriously DROOLING over the prospect. He was almost sorry when Dean self-destructed. Rush even blamed it on the Clintons, speaking admiringly of Dean as being at least a true Democrat.

Of course, Rush would have been singing a different tune if Dean had come out on top.

[Guaranteed]

6. .....

Let's not start this, but- you're definitely wrong. If anyone could have beaten Bush, it was the guy who was positioned like Dean was.

Flip-flopper? With Dean? Are ya kidding? No way.

[vi5]

8. No, it wouldn't have been flip flopper.

It would have been tempermant, or too liberal or against the troops, or draft dodger.

Believe me they would have found something against any candidate we put up there. Nobody would have been exempt.

[Guaranteed]

10. But the message would have been intact. nt

[vi5]

12. What message?

The message is what the right wants the message to be. Or haven't you been reading the papers or watching any television news for the past 6 monts to 6 years?

Dean could repeat the same, wonderful, cogent points day in and day out and keep his message the same.

But the message would be "The scream"
The message would be "No foreign policy experience"
The message would be "unstable hothead".

[NYCGirl]

13. If I remember correctly, the "angry hothead" and "foreign policy" memes

were used by our side against Ronald Reagan, along with a "stupidity" one, in his case. Obviously, he rose above those.

[incapsulated]

14. Regan was a Republican

Different rules, different guy, different election altogether.

[NYCGirl]

18. Yes, I'm aware Reagan was a Republican. I voted against him.

But my point is that one can overcome the opposition's definitions. During Reagan's runs, the Republican Noise Machine (to borrow David Brock's phrase) wasn't as strong as it is now, so perhaps he had somewhat of an easier time of it.

[incapsulated]

33. My point was...

The rules are different for republicans, even then. It was like the Chimp: "Yeah, Reagan may not be too bright, but gee, he's so likable, just a nice guy". And the same stupid slogans: Make America Proud Again, yada, yada. Plus there were different issues that election. There wasn't 9/11 and the Iraq war, for starters, which would put Dean on much more of a hot seat in regards to forgein policy experience. There was a hostage crisis, but unlike Bush, Carter was actually blamed for it and for the economy. Had he been a rethug, he would've probably been given a pass. Reagan got two terms because of this double standard.

A Democrat has to be twice as good as his Rethug competition to win.

Or lucky. (Luck being the American people waking up once and a while).

[NYCGirl]

41. Basically, the guy who posted above us, and who I had originally addressed

seemed to leave no room for hope for any candidate whatsoever. What I wished to do was point out that no matter how bad it looks, no matter how the candidate (Kerry, our choice, or Dean, or Clark, or whomever) is smeared, that they can prevail. I have to believe that, or I wouldn't be hanging out here.

Judging by your last two paragraphs, you believe that, too.

[incapsulated]

42. We do win sometimes...

It's true. :) We can't give up cause we're fightin' real evil and stuff, now.

[The Chronicler]

62. It would have been something else

Rove could make Mother Theresa look like a shithead.

[vi5]

7. If Dean were the candidate we'd be in exactly the same shape..

Same thing with any of candidate we'd field. If they found a way to hit a decorated war hero in his area of STRENGTH, what do you think they would do with any of the other candidates?

With someone like Dean or Kucinich or Clark we would have picked up some more of the anti-war vote, at the expense of some of the moderate vote. Just like if Leiberman were the candidate we would have picked up more of the moderate vote at the expense of the liberal vote.

The problem is two fold.

1)The republican party is ruthless and will tear down the name, reputation, and life of anyone who dare oppose it.
2)The democratic party is so big tent and diverse that for every vote we pick up one way, we are bound to lose one somewhere else in the spectrum within the democratic party.

[incapsulated]

9. Oy Vey...

And if Dean where the Candidate:

The media would suddenly stop whoring for Bush.

No one would ever mention the contradictions in any statements Dean ever made.

The "scream" wouldn't be played every single day on multiple TV and radio stations up until election day.

He would become a lovable teddy-bear that everyone wants to have a beer with, overnight.

Karl Rove would have a stroke, and be out of the picture.

And before the historic landslide victory, we would all go visit the Fairy Princess together! YaY!

/excessive sarcasm

No matter who the nominee, this was going to be a war. The grass is always greener, yada, yada. Honestly, I'm glad my guy didn't win, I don't think I could take this with that sort of personal emotional involvement in the candidate. I would wind up in a straightjacket.

[Moonbeam_Starlight]

30. Oh God me too

I mean it's bad enough with Kerry, because I do truly respect and admire and reallly realllly like him a LOT now. I would hate to watch Dean go through the wringer like this.

NAh, Dean's a great attack dog. He's needed in public service and his Democracy for America organization totally ROCKS. He has served his country well and will continue to.

BUt Kerry's the man.

[incapsulated]

34. I love Dean the attack dog!

I'd like to see him off his chain a hellava lot more, too! :)

[Moonbeam_Starlight]

36. Hell yeah

that man can BITE! LOL!

[Barney Rocks]

11. yeah--

we definitely need to go down THIS road again. Eyeroll.

(I liked Dean too, I liked him a lot. But it doesn't help Kerry one bit to keep saying so. I supported Kerry for one reason--I was told that with his war background and purple hearts that he would have the best chance of defeating Bush. That was the rationale by which my arm was twisted into supporting him. I am going to do it cheerfully--and I am not going to complain--not one word while this election is going on. But if Kerry does not win--I am going to RAISE HELL especially with the people that aggressively persuaded me into changing my mind.)

[JPJones]

15. Another Rove psy-op, please don't give him the pleasure

of going down that road, unless you have a time machine.

[elperromagico]

16. We can play "what if" games all day,

but it's not going to get us any closer to our goal of knocking Bush out and trying to get this country back on the right track.

Can't we focus - at least until 2 November?

[sandersadu]

17. Re-read my first post

We fully support Kerry to victory on Nov. 2.

All I'm saying is that win or lose, Democrats have to do some serious self-examination and really think about how it got to the point that we don't control any branch of government.

I'm not saying Dean is the answer, (Obviously I supported Edwards), all I'm saying is that we've got to have a better, more consistent message, and better marketing. That's the start.

[elperromagico]

23. I read your post. Twice.

And I still think these "what if" scenarios are rather pointless right now. Let's focus on winning this election; then we can start analyzing.

Need I remind you that, if we don't win this election, we may not have a party to examine?

[Moonbeam_Starlight]

31. How about let's do that self-examination

AFTER the election. I don't see ANY republicans supporting bush doing this! IF they had nominated McCain in 2000, I honestly think McCain would be looking at getting re-elected right now. A lot of them know that but you don't hear them bitching about it, do ya?

[rasputin1952]

19. As has been stated, time after time on these boards...

Dean is not, and will not be the candidate...can we please end this?

O8)

[mzmolly]

20. The article makes points EVERY original Dean supporter has considered.

And, I'm certain a few original Kerry supporters have as well. However, if Dean were the nominee - we'd surely be seeing "If X were the nominee" articles by the press ...

[Placebo]

21. HILLARY CLINTON IN 2012!!!

Or (god help us all) 2008!!! :)

:yourock: HILLARY :yourock:

Our first woman president!

[NoPasaran]

22. If Dean had been the candidate

He would have been subjected to the same kind of smear campaign that Kerry has been. Likewise for Clark, Edwards, Kucinich, Gephardt, Sharpton, Mosely-Braun or Leiberman. No doubt the style of our campaign would have varied somewhat with the nominee. But the important thing is that whoever the nominee was we still would have been united and we would still be winning this thing.

[AuntPatsy]

24. He's not so close this thread, we have much work to do and

going backwards gets one nowhere...

[milkyway]

25. I'm a big Dean supporter, but this is not a well-reasoned argument.

The dynamics of the race would be completely different. The repugs never attack dem Presidential candidates on the issues, they attack the person. Far better than dems, they have understood that people look at voting for President differently than they do when voting for a Congressional Representative. People vote for a leader of the nation, not someone who agrees with them on more issues than the other guy does.

I have wondered where we would be right now if Dean were the nominee (I speak of the Dean that went into December with a sizable lead in the polls--obviously, the post-scream Dean could not be the nominee). The personal attacks on Dean would have been completely different than the attacks on Kerry. Dean would have been attacked for not being more cautious in choosing his words (like John Kerry). Rove would paint him as a raving psycho. There would be the Swift Doctors for Truth who would attest to Dean being mentally unfit for office.

It's hard to say what would have happened with Dean the nominee. I think he would have done better than Kerry at rallying the Dem base around him. Dems who didn't like him in the primaries would come to admire him as he stood up to the Rove attacks. But my gut feeling is that the Dean campaign, which proved to be naive during Iowa, would not have been ready to face the neverending assault coming from the repugs and their media henchmen. I think Dean would probably be further behind than Kerry at this point.

Any of our candidates would have had a difficult time. They would be competing on a very uneven playing field, and would have to face their own version of the Swift Boat Liars for Truth. Unfortunately, the one candidate who is politically masterful enough to defeat the rightwing smear machine couldn't run--Bill Clinton.

Despite everything, I firmly believe that more voters will go to the polls on election day and vote for Kerry. But I highly doubt those votes will all be counted.

[liberalpragmatist]

40. Exactly

Beautifully and concisely said. I agree completely and have said as much here. I think MOST of the primary candidates could have won given the right campaign (Kerry, Dean, Edwards, Clark, maybe Gephardt though God not Lieberman). But I think it's silly to pretend that any of them would've been immune to Bushco's attacks. Now, maybe they'd be farther ahead now or behind - we don't know. A different campaign and different candidate would be just that: different. But they'd all have had weaknesses.

Clark would have been derided as a flip-flopper on the war (it's a theme the Republicans like to go to) and they'd certainly have had his rivals in the officer corps speak out against him saying he was "unfit for office."

Edwards would've been attacked as an ambulance chaser. It's not true, but neither were the stories about Kerry. And probably Edwards would have had to come out against the war as well, to which HE would've been derided as a flip-flopper.

Dean would have been attacked not as a flip-flopper but as a far-left pinko commie who was mentally unstable. They'd have used to great affect any classic Dean off-the-kuff remarks.

[AmyStrange]

26. good article (n/t)

[Moonbeam_Starlight]

32. Good article?

Even the part where the author says Kerry blew it on Iraq?

[AmyStrange]

49. I support Kerry regardless of his Iraq vote...

but he disappointed me greatly when he did vote for it, but he is starting to attack * and call him on alot of the stupid things he did after he got his vote and that's a good thing in my opinion,

d

(EDIT: spelling and grammar)

[dkf]

27. I like this argument because Iraq should be the issue.

It makes me sick that Kerry has let Bush turn the Iraq war into a positive when it is a debacle and a stinking mess. It is the epitome of turning black into white and Kerry has let Bush get away with it.

Call me negative, whatever... But history will show that when we Democrats should have spoken up against this war, we were ineffective because we were trying to support our nominee.

[Southsideirish]

28. At least one thing would be clear - a definite distinction between

Dean and Bush - not a nuanced one but a very obvious one - clear to all.

[Moonbeam_Starlight]

29. I got about 2/3 into that article and had to quit.

Kerry has "blown it" on Iraq? I've got something the writer of that article can blow right out his ass.

This is the newest RW talking point, I even saw Matt Lauer ask Dean that on that stupid morning show.

DEAN IS NOT THE CANDIDATE!!!! KERRY IS!!!! WHO THE HELL CARES WHAT IT WOULD BE LIKE WITH DEAN?????

More attempts at division from the right wing. Ignore it people. Stay focused, stay on track.

Kerry is a solid candidate and I believe beyond a shadow of a DOUBT that he will be 1000 times the president bush has been.

Moonbeam, a former Deaniac, still love Dean, but KERRY is da man.

Don't we hear RW talking points enough just by turning on the TV?

[blm]

35. No sincere Dean supporter would allow Dean's name to be used for GOP psyop

games to try to divide the Democrats. and depress voter turnout on the left.

They are setting expectations for a Bush victory now so the public won't question it when they steal it.

[Moonbeam_Starlight]

38. BLAM!!!!

blm NAILED it, right here people. I am NOT allowing Dean's name to be used in GOP psyop.

Not for one freaking second, I'm not.

[ProudToBeLiberal]

43. oh now you're speaking for dean? lol

after all that flame baits and attacks against dean in the primary? of all people come on

[blm]

57. Get real. I never flamed for agitation. I earnestly argued FOR Kerry and

against Dean. Earnestly and honestly.

If Dean were the nominee, I would be putting my efforts into helping him defeat Bush by using all the weaknesses I saw in his candidacy and developing a plan to combat them with people on his team who were interested in what the opposition saw as weak spots. THAT'S WHAT LOYAL OPPOSITION DOES. That's why Kerry has so many workers from ALL the campaigns working with him now.

If you think I argued just for exercise, then you must be new to party politics and primary debate.

I AM sure I know the difference between those earnest Dean supporters from the primary and those who hide behind his name to take shots at Kerry at this late date. And I am sure they do, too.

[Guaranteed]

56. Let's just stop talking about this, then.

We'll deal with this after the election, but hopefully we won't have to.

[TheDonkey]

37. It was not a close race between JK and HD, there will be no war

in the Democrats. Definetly a huge setback for our country but democrats know that Dean would have had the same problems against the media and rethug slime tactics.

[Leilani]

39. This is pretty useless..

Things are not going well...

So Dean people think his decisiveness would have been better

Edwards people think his likeability would have been better

And as a Clarkie, I think his military/foreign policy knowledge would have been better.

But we are where we are.

Bush has a million problems, but he has run a tough, smart campaign.

I think thats the difference.

Republicans are better at this than Dems.

Its the campaign, stupid!

[Czolgosz]

44. Let's review: Kerry's got Purple Hearts and stars for his

truely brave military service, and the Rove-Bush-Cheney sandwitch has the right wing morons screaming that he wouldn't make a decent war president. Max Cleland left 3 limbs in Vietnam, and the Rove-Bush-Cheney sandwitch has the right wing morons screaming that he is soft on defending the country. John McCain serves his time in Vietnam as a POW, and the Rove-Bush-Cheney sandwitch has the right wing morons screaming that he is too unbalanced from his service to lead the nation. Howard Dean spends some time during the Vietnam war skiing . . . Yeah, it would have been a cake walk if Dean were the nominee.

I like Dean (and I like Kucinich and Edwards and Gephart and Grahm, too) but we picked the right guy. They've smeared Kerry and they'd have smeared who ever we picked. The task is to wipe off the muck and kick their asses. That's happening.

[LittleClarkie]

50. Sometimes I even think

we picked the perfect candidate.

He's well-rounded and really knowledgeable on the subject of international terrorism especially.

And there's something about seeing all those images of him as a young man that resonates now, and esp. his famous quote: "How do you ask a man to be the last man to die for a mistake." I saw that quote in at least three different articles on the war so far.

I'm a happy Clarkie.

[mzmolly]

45. Howard Dean responded to this ?? in an interview recently: watch here

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6028629/

I think he answered this question quite well. :hi:

It's a darn good interview, everyone should watch. Wait for the page to load, it's at the top right of the electoral map. Click on Matt Lauer/Howard Dean under the term "video" ...

[Julien Sorel]

48. I like Dean the talk show guest a lot more than I liked Dean the

candidate. He was very relaxed and persuasive in that interview -- he actually came across as likeable.

[mzmolly]

61. He "actually" is likeable. I like the candidate and the talk show guest.

They both ROCK!

[Julien Sorel]

46. How amusing.

It was Dean's character that got him bounced out of the primaries, but here we have someone claiming he has a character advantage over Kerry.

The grass isn't greener, people. At least not this patch.

[Cheswick2.0]

47. There is going to be a war in the democratic party either way

The DLC idiocy has to go. They are killing the party and the reason we lost the presidency the senate, the congress and the reason we can't regain any ground.

[bklyncowgirl]

51. How does "Vermont Abortion Victims for Truth" sound?

Here's an example:


"I was 16 years old and pregnant out of wedlock."
Show picture of fresh faced young girl

"I went to the Burlington Planned Parenthood for counseling"
Show ominous picture of clinic

"Dr. Dean told me I should get an abortion"
show picture of grinning Dean

"I live with the guilt from that decision every day"
show picture of sad faced woman

"Howard Dean may be a doctor but he has no respect for human life."
show picture of laughing Dean


I sincerely think that no matter who was our candidate was, he would have been smeared. Sure, we all thought that Kerry's demonstrated war record would be an advantage. We were probably a bit naive about the extent to which these people would go.

Maybe the fact that Dean was smeared pretty hard during the primaries may have inoculated him somewhat. Maybe his clarity might have been an advantage.

There are some good arguments here but I'd like to save them for after the election.

[Cheswick2.0]

52. any candidate would have been smeared...but the response is what matters

Kerry's was slow and ineffective. Now he has better advisors and is hitting back harder just like we pain in the ass Dean Democrats said he should all along. I hope it is not too late. I am working to turn out the democratic vote because Kerry is not going to get as much of the swing as we had all hoped. In fact he is going to get less of the woman's vote (of people who voted in 2000) than Gore did because his campaign failed to effectively counter the idea that bush would keep us safer.

[Jacobin]

55. PREEEEZACTLY

It's the response, not the attack that counts. And the counter-attacks.

Jeeze, Kerry has been abysmal about that.

[bklyncowgirl]

58. Gotta agree with you there

Let's hope the Kerry people have learned from their mistake and that it's not too late.

I went on vacation right after this Swift Boat thing started and two weeks later Kerry was dropping like a stone.

Not good. When attacked you have to hit back and hit back hard.

[meti57b]

53. It's the party, not the candidate, that gets the candidate elected.

Look at the republicans. Their candidates have been mindless incompetents, but the republican party gets them elected because they know how to get their candidates elected and they are well-financed. They are willing to play dirty and our response to their dirty politics is to ignore it.

Democrats think that all we need to do is run a qualified candidate, have the guy give some speeches and if people like him, they'll turn out and vote for him and we'll win. Those days are gone.

[Jacobin]

54. Dean fired me up

I sent him more money than I could afford and I'm GLAD I sent it. I don't regret a dime and only wish I could be supporting him for president.

He speaks my language. I think he has fire in his gut, which is what this country desperately needs.

I'm voting for Kerry, but the fire is gone. The only thing that keeps me helping Kerry is thinking of four more years of Dingbat.

Maybe 2008......

[LastDemStanding]

59. I just wish I had not given all my money to Dean

Because now I am too busted to drop coinage on Kerry.

[rullery]

60. I am not a Deaniac, and I believe Kerry is a good choice.

As an older Democrat, I prefer someone with more experience, which John Kerry certainly has. However I do admire Dr. Dean's ability to motivate especially the younger, more idealistic people. He is doing a great job now helping Kerry to get elected, and I expect Dean may have a cabinet position in the Kerry administration.

Kerry has been too cautious though, and too slow to respond to the Republican/Rove attack dogs. It has cost him some loss in the polls. He has corrected this now, and it is good to see Kerry taking the fight more to Bush. He needs to show voters that he can be an aggressive defender of our country, and take this ground away from Bush.

Kerry is quite likable, but he lacks the charisma of Edwards or Dean. He is highly intelligent and thoughtful though, and unlikely to make rash decisions that take us to war unnecessarily, as Bush has done. We need his kind of steady hand at the helm of our Ship of State. I believe that Kerry will be an excellent president.

[eridani]

63. Everyone who has said that ANY of the candidates would have been slimed--

--is absolutely right.

Instead of Swift Boat Veterans for Truth, there'd be Outraged Clevelanders for Fiscal Responsibility, or endless loops of the Scream, or Edwards as ambulance-chaser, or Wes Clark as a really a Republican--name the candidate, and they'd have a slime attack ready.

The whole 'electability' meme is based on the notion that somehow one of the candidates is by nature more slime-resistant than the others. Absolutely not so.