Dean's ultra-conservative views on criminal justice

[kerry-is-my-prez]

I had heard often that Dean has some very harsh views about criminal justice but have seen very little on the subject. This is some of the information that I found out there on google. I will let the quotes speak for themselves...


http://www.talkleft.com/archives/003739.html
……He once addressed a meeting of defense attorneys by stating that "my job is to make your job as difficult as possible." He is a man of his word, at least on this campaign promise. He did not want to fund public defense.

……Dean has made no secret of his belief that the justice system gives all the breaks to defendants. Consequently, during the 1990s, state’s attorneys, police, and corrections all received budget increases vastly exceeding increases enjoyed by the defender general’s office. That meant the state’s attorneys were able to round up ever increasing numbers of criminal defendants, but the public defenders were not given comparable resources to respond.


http://rogueimc.org/2003/11/1757.shtml
Dean, in 1999, wanted to refuse a $150,000 federal grant to the public defender's office for aiding mentally disabled defendants. "That was unusual, to say the least," says Appel. The state legislature overrode Dean's opposition. Dean spokesman Carson responded that Dean didn't want to create a program that the state couldn't afford to fund if federal money disappeared in the future. But he did not disavow Dean's anti-defendant bent. "This is a governor who was tough on crime and is a big believer in victims' rights," Carson says.

(Note:The state legislature overrode Dean's opposition and forced him to take it.)


Source: http://stacks.msnbc.com/news/912159.asp?cp1=1
Dean: “I got life without parole through our legislature. The problems with life without parole is that it’s not life without parole. There are always people who get out.”



http://richmond.indymedia.org/newswire/display/4371/index.php

.. “I’m looking to make it easier to convict guilty people and not have as many technicalities interfere with justice, and I’ll appoint someone to fit that bill”.

Asked if that reflected a “get-tough-on-crime” approach, Dean responded: “I’m looking for someone who is for justice. My beef about the judicial system is that it does not emphasize truth and justice over lawyering. It emphasizes legal technicalities and rights of the defendants and all that.” Such comments may play well with the general public, but they have sent a chill through the collective spine of lawyers – particularly defense lawyers – around the state.


http://rogueimc.org/2003/11/1757.shtml
He attempted an explanation of his support for capital punishment, even while agreeing that in some cases "the wrong guy" might be executed…. ...he thought the death penalty was preferable in some instances to a sentence of life without parole, Dean noted that in some instances criminals who are locked up for life might be freed on a legal "technicality" only to commit more horrible crimes. "That is every bit as heinous as putting to death someone who didn't commit the crime," he said.


http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A1907-2003Jul2?language=printer

William Cohen: …..In all my years writing about the death penalty, I have never heard any politician admit that he would countenance the death of an innocent person in order to ensure that the guilty die. Dean is maybe the first to acknowledge the unacknowledgeable. For that, I suppose, he ought to be congratulated. But by equating the murder of one individual by another with the murder of an innocent person by the government -- the unpreventable with the preventable -- he has casually trashed several hundred years of legal safeguards.


http://www.vpr.net/vt_news/stories/sharedlegacy/shared3.shtml
Vermont Public Radio, Bob Kinzel: "It's likely that Howard Dean's tenure in office will also have a long term effect on the state's criminal justice system. In his first years as Governor, Dean was often critical of judges who Dean thought did not hand down tough enough sentences. Over the last 10 years, Dean has appointed more judges than any previous governor and Dean describes his appointees as "law and order" judges. Dean's judicial philosophy appears to be having a significant impact - during his tenure as governor the average sentence handed down in Vermont has doubled - a situation that has led to an overcrowding of the state's prison system."



http://www.dissidentvoice.org/Articles8/Bister-Estrin-Jacobs_Dean.htm

His governorship was a campaign against reasonable approaches to substance abuse. ….. the only other option in his bag of tricks is tougher penalties. He has endorsed fully the National Governors Association's policy, which calls for increased involvement of law enforcement and disavows any form of legalization not only as a policy but also as a philosophy. In short, Dean not only believes in the war on drug users, but also would like to see it intensified.

…..While Dean vocalized his opposition to methadone treatment clinics and decried any efforts to reduce the penalties on marijuana use -- even labeling the latter as a gateway drug (a statistically questionable claim at best) -- the population of Vermont's prisons increased to potentially dangerous levels. There is a correlation between these two phenomena. The more police go after individuals who use drugs, and the more judges are instructed to put them in jail, the more prisoners there are. ……. according to the DEA, the number of drug arrests in Vermont increased under Dean's watch, peaking in the year 2001, with the imprisonment of women increasing by over 140%.


http://rogueimc.org/2003/11/1757.shtml
Robert Appel, former head of the state's public defender system, said he had constant clashes with Dean over funding for the service. According to Appel, Dean said on at least one public occasion that the state should spend less money providing the accused with legal representation, saying that "95% of criminal defendants are guilty anyway." He later claimed that he was kidding.


http://www.loper.org/~george/archives/2003/Aug/946.html
(He appointed) state judges who were willing to undermine the Bill of Rights. In a 1997 interview with the Vermont News Bureau, Howard Dean admitted his desire to expedite the judicial process by using such justices to 'quickly convict guilty criminals.' He wanted individuals that would deem 'common sense more important than legal technicalities.' Constitutional protections (legal technicalities) apparently undermine Dean's yearning for speedy trials.

[wyldwolf]

1. Yeah, has been a concern of mine, too.

[Name removed]

2. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[blm]

10. Why ignore issues that are REAL and defining for the left, Atlant?

You can laugh this off so easily?

[kerry-is-my-prez]

12. Why would a thread about an issue be inflammatory? This isn't freeperville

n/t

[Printer70]

38. There never was any truce

Dean supporters will one day understand this although I don't know how long it's going to take. We can't be fat and happy with our lead; and have to recognize the need to contrast ourselves with other candidates.

[blm]

42. Try just researching your candidate.

Most don't even know that much about his actual record in Vermont and his hostile stance towards civil liberty issues in the justice system.

[worldgonekrazy]

3. Interesting, I will have to research this more

As a staunch opponent of the death penalty and a strong believe in defendant's rights, this does concern me.

[blm]

41. I'm surprised more people didn't know this about Dean.

Dean people are defending someone they barely know, especially on defining Dem issues like criminal justice.

Dean sounds like George Bush in most of his statements. If Bush had said any of those comments, we'd all be howling about it here at DU.

[Freddie Stubbs]

4. Great--We don't want another soft on crime Dukakis wimp as the nominee

I would rather have a Bill Clinton than a Mike Dukakis as the nominee.

[blm]

17. Sorry this sounds more like Sean Hannity than a Clinton Democrat.

.

[GreenArrow]

26. yeah Clinton was Great!

I always loved the way he flew back to Arkansas to oversee the exectution of that retarded guy. Tough dude, Bill Clinton.

[genius]

5. Yeah. That's why most Democratic attorneys (and most attorneys

are Democrats) will have a considerable amount of trouble voting for him.

This guy quoted in the first article you listed sums it up

"I was a public defender in Vermont during part of Dean's tenure. He was openly hostile to the defense function. He once addressed a meeting of defense attorneys by stating that "my job is to make your job as difficult as possible." He is a man of his word, at least on this campaign promise. He did not want to fund public defense."

[Hep]

6. What words did you search?

just curious. I searched Howard Dean Criminal Justice, and the very first thing to pop up was this:

http://www.talkleft.com/archives/005345.html

"We stopped by Howard Dean's website today, just to take a look, and were very pleasantly surprised to see him state these positions on criminal justice issues:"

And I can't help but wonder, if it was the first site to come back, why on earth would you not post it? Oh, actually, on second thought, I think I know why.

[blm]

11. That's the problem, Dean SAYS one thing as primary candidate

and we always find out he governed COMPLETELY different than the way his WEBSITE likes to pretend.

[kerry-is-my-prez]

14. Why not address the real issue instead of belaboring the trivialities?

n/t

[Hep]

29. the real issue being

biased commentary? Nah, I think I'll wait for you to answer my question.

[jmaier]

21. Hep, I agree generally

that if you post a thread highlighting a potentially negative segment of a candidate's record then, to be fair, you should also post any more recent counter evidence. Sadly, this doesn't appear to be the case when Clark is the topic of the negative thread nor when Gov Dean is the topic of thread. At least the attackers from both campaign camps are consistent -- if, unfortunately consistently bad.



Wes Clark. He will make an extraordinary American President.

[Hep]

31. You are dead on.

The thing that gets me is the total secrecy about the nature of the search. The skeptical side of me wonders if this "search" is being passed around by opponents.

You're right though, this problem is widespread and hits most if not all of the candidates.

[kerry-is-my-prez]

34. I believe the custom on DU is for supporters of a candidate to post

responses to peoples concerns about their candidate. I've never seen a thread where they've done this.

You said that there was positive info out there about Dean and Criminal Justice. You should post it. Sorry - I'm not going to do your job for you. I wouldn't expect you to do the same for me.

[rucky]

7. How many people did he put on Death Row?

[Name removed]

8. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Hep]

9. Ahh yes, the unquestioning critics never fail to come around!

But my question will remain unanswered!

[kerry-is-my-prez]

16. Oh I see. You'd rather discuss the words I used to do a google search....

n/t

[Atlant]

13. Do you actually *BELIEVE* this?

> His appointments will undoubtedly be worse than Bush's.

Do you actually BELIEVE this? Because if you do,
there's really no point in anyone replying to you on this
topic; we surely aren't going to change your mind.

Atlant

[Name removed]

15. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Hoosier Democrat]

18. So, now Dean is a fascist, huh?

So Dean is somewhat conservative on criminal justice issues. So am I. I support the death penalty, I feel that many people do get off because of defense-oriented loopholes, and I support more rights for police officers. I also come from a long-time law enforcement family (Eight badges and counting!).

I also worked on the Dukakis campaign as a college student and still have flash-backs of the "Willie Horton" ads. From that, I learned that the VAST majority of Americans have a center-right view of criminal justice. Nominating a candidate who shares those views MAKES SENSE!

So, Dean turned down federal grant money. Well, working daily in local government, I can tell you that a "federal grant" can quickly turn into "Pay it yourself now". Better to say "no" upfront than to implement the program and cancel it after a couple years when the cash dries up.

[Atlant]

22. At some point, pushing "Alert" seems like the best policy. (NT)

[genius]

23. Dean's words and actions make him so. Follow the above links.

If he gets the nomination, I'd have to sacrifice my conscience to vote for him.

[Colin Ex]

double post - removed

removed

[Colin Ex]

55. Compelling Arguments vs. the "Fuck Off" Argument

I cite the post I respond to as a compelling argument.

I cite most of the other responses in this thread as "Fuck Off" arguments.

-C

(Edit: FU Double posting)

[Padraig18]

56. What?

This is the only response you've made in this thread, unless I'm mistaken. :shrug:

[Colin Ex]

57. The green panther flies at midnight.

:-)

The point I was trying to make (I've had a shitty day today and I've been memorizing the world map, so pardon if I'm a little scatterbrained) was that the "Well, in my experience with local government..." statement was much more compelling than the multitudes of "Oh, you are SO full of shit" statements you see on threads like this.

It's been a long day. I'm sorry.

-C

[Padraig18]

58. no blood, no foul

Thanks for clearing that up--- I thought i was having a blonde moment. :P

[bread_and_roses]

19. Scary stuff

...those "technicalities" he's so contemptuous of are what stand between us and a Police state...an eventuality we creep closer to every day, and which is already a reality for the minority community.

[On the Road]

20. My View of the Criminal Justice System Is Changing a Little

since buying several rental properites in urban Baltimore.

I think I understand where Dean is coming from. Maybe it's just wishful thinking on my part, but I believe he's addressing a real issue, and one that Clinton and Gore had to address. (Remember Clinton's 100,000 policemen and Gore's attacks on Dukakis's penal system?)

In high crime beighborhoods, there are many repeat offenders who consistently commit crimes and flout the law. They brag about it. They are often picked up and eventually released because without a confession, it very difficult to get a conviction. Those who are smart enough may go on for years without being sent to prison.

Having a known minority of repeat offenders in a neighborhood brings entire neighborhoods down. It endangers the residents, and diminishes the respect for law. No one is more affected by this than the poor residents themselves. That's one reason a certain segment of the poor vote Republican, however misguided that may be. The ability to convict criminals is a basic function of local government, and it does work very well under the current system.

This is not disrespect for civil liberties. I hold the Bill of Rights in very high esteem. I am an ACLU contributor. I despise the unecessary violations of civil liberties in the justice system. Rights are always in conflict, and always have to be balanced against each other. I believe what Dean was saying is that the rights of crime victims are ignored in favor of the rights of defendents.

Actually, the more Dean speaks recklessly, the more I like it. He's addressing real issues rather than just giving the safe party line.

[kerry-is-my-prez]

33. This is Dean's Record NOT him speaking on the issues. Did you read the

posts?

[DuctapeFatwa]

24. Those are all very mainstream, popular views

Voters want harsh punishments. The prison industry is one of the fastest growing and strongest.

Currently only 142 out of 143 Americans is at large, and only about 1 out of 5 minority males are behind bars, and a man with a plan to get those numbers up will go far in US politics.

There is a lot of support for getting as much of the undesirable population segments into the justice system as is practical.

And except for a small but vocal minority, most people recognize that sending a message is more important than going overboard about exactly which person committed a crime. Sure, some innocent people may be imprisoned or executed, but this usually happens only to low-income people. Everyone has the freedom to hire any attorney they can get. That's an important safeguard to ensure that people who make more of a contribution to the economy are not lumped in with common criminals.

[Name removed]

35. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ThirdWheelLegend]

37. DTF.... dripping and beautiful....

It will be lost on so many who support 'tougher' laws. So much is at stake... and people don't see these things.


TWL

[DuctapeFatwa]

39. Indeed they do not :)

:toast:

[blm]

40. That's the truth. All of a sudden so many lefties are lurching right on

issues that should be defining ones for us. In my opinion, Dean has succeeded to get more former liberals agreeing with his centrist right politics than any effort put forth by the DLC in 10 years.

Amazingly sad.

[ThirdWheelLegend]

50. thank you

This is something that has been worrying me.

Pentagon budget, NAFTA, Patriot Act, big energy money, death penalty.

These are Democratic positions?

:shrug:

TWL

[blm]

54. I know EXACTLY what you're saying.

It completely creeps me out that Dean is succeeding pulling these folks to the right who just spent most of the last few years BITCHING about the DLC which is mostly even to Dean's left, fer chrissakes. Few of the DLC have as harsh an outlook on judicial matters as Dean.

Dean sounds like Sean Hannitty here. Or George Bush.

[retyred]

59. No their not

then again we're talking dean. He's neither liberal or progressive.

Just a thought pertaining to this, with deans views on the criminal justice system from these articles, and his statements on keeping some of the Patriot act, would dean keep John Ashcroft as AG if he were to become President?


retyred in fla
“Good-Night Paul, Wherever You Are”
So I read this book

[ThirdWheelLegend]

62. Wow interesting question!

I really doubt it, Dean may be a right leaning right leaner. But that would be ridiculous, although you are correct that they have similar views, except for that anoint in oil stuff :P

TWL

[Snivi Yllom]

25. ultraconservative?

I think you exaggerate

[NewYorkerfromMass]

27. No wonder he called Bush a moderate

seems sending people to death row by the dozen is just fine by him too.

I'm telling you, Bush and Dean are not much different on way too many issues to convince moderates to vote for him.

[kerry-is-my-prez]

28. Luckily for Vermontians they don't have a death penalty....

n/t

[cryofan]

30. Social Safety Net was Dean's target while Vermont Governor

Read what Dean said about the social safety net:

Most of the Democrats in the legislature rebelled against Dean over the budget cuts, and he ended up depending on Republican votes to pass most of his proposals. At the time, a local Vermont newspaper wrote, "The biggest items on Dean’s agenda for next year are likely to provoke more opposition from the Democrats than the Republicans. Nevertheless, Dean said he feels no particular pressure to deliver the goods to his party or to promote the Democratic agenda."15

In the mid-1990s, Dean even aligned himself with the likes of Republican Newt Gingrich on his stance on cutting Medicare. He opined at the time, "The way to balance the budget is for Congress to cut Social Security, move the retirement age to 70, cut defense, Medicare and veterans pensions, while the states cut everything else."16
....
The Rutland Herald described how one protestor, Henrietta Jordan of the Vermont Center for Independent Living, "said it would be much fairer to raise taxes on people with expensive homes and cars, children in private school and a housekeeper at home than to cut programs that helped the 66,000 Vermonters living with disabilities."17 Dean responded callously, brushing off the pleas of Vermont’s most vulnerable by saying, "This seems like sort of the last gasp of the left here."18"
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>


The rest of this article is here:
http://www.isreview.org/issues/32/dean.shtml

[killbotfactory]

32. Oh no! Dean is doomed in the general election...

No one will vote for a guy who wants to crack down on crime.

[mvd]

36. My take

Dean's positions have evolved over time (I say it that way as someone who likes Dean,) and he's right about a couple things. Life in prison without parole should mean just that. And most accused do plead guilty, even if the joke went a bit far. I also believe in being tough in some ways. More life in prison for violent criminals like child molesters, and I'm not opposed to three strikes if it applies to violent crimes or non-violent crimes that affect a lot of people. All strikes should be approved by a judge, though. Things I hope Dean has changed on: the public defender's office should always be adequately funded. Public defenders also should make more than $35/40,000 a year. The prisons are already overcrowded with drug offenders. And I'm against the death penalty (unenthusiastically in some cases,) but I'm not sure Dean will come around on this.

A tough-on-crime perception WILL help in the general election.

[in_cog_ni_to]

43. There's one missing.

THIS is one that REALLY bothers me. If he will do all of the above, who's to say he won't appoint pro-life judges? He REFUSES to make pro-choice a limus test for his appointments to the federal courts. I DO NOT trust anyone who will not say, flat out, "I will not appoint pro-life judges."

[blm]

44. Dean is less of a known quantity than his followers realize.

.

[genius]

47. Even Clark opposes the execution of innocent people.

In my years as a Democrat, I have never seen a potential candidate as bad as Dean on this issue.

[ThirdWheelLegend]

48. Scary...

But polls and money can't be wrong, can they?

TWL

[Feanorcurufinwe]

45. This is the issue that originally disillusioned me with Dean

Reporter Peter Freyne, now one of Dean's great supporters, asked his readers at the time to "Remember (Dean's) the guy who once said 95 percent of people charged with crimes are guilty anyway so why should the state spend money on providing them with lawyers?"
http://www.counterpunch.org/jacobs08292003.html


Neither does Dean's logic. According to Dean's own account, the sex offender had never been convicted of a previous capital crime. And, in the eyes of the law, he wasn't even convicted of one of them -- one man's "technicality" being another's constitutional abuse. Whatever the case, the death penalty played no role.

It's not that Russert wasn't persistent. He went after Dean time and time again, finding only a bowl of fudge sitting opposite him -- a man so desperately in search of a rationale that ultimately he stood American jurisprudence on its head. Going on about felons getting out of jail and then killing, say, "15- and 12-year-old girls," he added, "That is every bit as heinous as putting to death someone who didn't commit the crime."

In all my years writing about the death penalty, I have never heard any politician admit that he would countenance the death of an innocent person in order to ensure that the guilty die. Dean is maybe the first to acknowledge the unacknowledgeable. For that, I suppose, he ought to be congratulated. But by equating the murder of one individual by another with the murder of an innocent person by the government -- the unpreventable with the preventable -- he has casually trashed several hundred years of legal safeguards.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn?pagename=article&node=&contentId=A1907-2003Jul2


Dean said Wednesday he believed that the attacks and their aftermath would "require a re-evaluation of the importance of some of our specific civil liberties. I think there are going to be debates about what can be said where, what can be printed where, what kind of freedom of movement people have and whether it's OK for a policeman to ask for your ID just because you're walking down the street."

Dean said he had not taken a position on these questions. Asked whether he meant that specific rights described in the Bill of Rights - the first 10 amendments to the U.S. Constitution - would have to be trimmed, the governor said:

"I haven't gotten that far yet. I think that's unlikely, but I frankly haven't gotten that far. Again, I think that's a debate that we will have."
http://rutlandherald.nybor.com/News/Story/33681.html

Someone who does not apparently believe in the presumption of innocence, who is unconcerned about innocent people being executed by the state, who believes constitutional safeguards like the right to a fair trial are 'technicalities', who is willing to examine the idea of trimming the Bill of Rights -- that is not someone I want appointing judges to the Supreme Court.

[Name removed]

46. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[stickdog]

49. Didn't you mean to say that Dean is tough on crime?

Will that make him more or less electable?

[ThirdWheelLegend]

51. Is electability all that's important?

How about doing what is right?

See DTF's post

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=132&topic_id=90515#90815

[Clark Can WIN]

52. I wasn't with you until this:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A1907-2003Jul2?language=printer

William Cohen: …..In all my years writing about the death penalty, I have never heard any politician admit that he would countenance the death of an innocent person in order to ensure that the guilty die. Dean is maybe the first to acknowledge the unacknowledgeable. For that, I suppose, he ought to be congratulated. But by equating the murder of one individual by another with the murder of an innocent person by the government -- the unpreventable with the preventable -- he has casually trashed several hundred years of legal safeguards.

OMFG..................... If Cohen is put off by Dean...........

I am firmly against the death penalty in general and disagree with Clarks stand on it. But this? this is grotesque.

[Dookus]

53. That's Richard Cohen, not William....

but the point is right either way.

[John_H]

60. Will they try Osama in Vermont?

I mean, how's he supposed to get the fair trial Candidate Dean says he's worried about with all those legal technicalities and bad ol' defendants rights that plague the legal system?

Wait a second......The record doesn't matter, man. It's the rhetoric. It's the movement, baby!

[angee_is_mad]

61. I thought he was a progressive

oops, I forgot just his supporters are!!!

[tameszu]

63. I'm not even so sure about that sometimes

I think his supporters are motivated. And most of them are leftists. But that's not the same as being progressive.