Not minding 5 Minutes of Hate and what Some Say.

[FrenchieCat]

The way I see it,
it appears that this President doesn't mind the 5 minutes of hate being lavished on him at the present, if in the end, he get us what we want on health care reform!

How he goes about getting us health care reform,
is exactly what most of us are fixated on right now...

and although most of us feel confident that something will get done,
we are just not sure as to what....

So, as we watch and speculate, different attitudes are emerging:

Some Say that this President is in the pocket of corporations
and will do what is best for them in the end (there is nothing that actually proves this theory
without doubt, other than the simple distrust of politicians and the skepticism of our politics).

Some of the same as well as others Say that the President's leadership is weak on the issue of Health Care Reform. They Say he needs to do the "right thing" and they want him to pin himself down, as a matter of principle, as to exactly where he stands, and to do this actively and forcefully via the Bully Pulpit and behind the scene. They want him to take on the opposition face on, and put them in their place; that would be the ones spending millions and who have the assistance of the Corporate media who work hard each and everyday at shaping public opinion using every tool they have.

They want him to shout out his exact thoughts on the matter, clear and unambiguously as to what he wants the initial senate bill to look like......although the same folks have already decided what the bill should look like, even if goes down in defeat looking the way they want to see it. This is the bill they want to see Obama stand up for; a bill that can be changed via the amendment process before it can get to conference (although of course, if the bill doesn't get 60 votes in the senate, it stops right there).

They opine and Say that he has no courage (although apparently, he is not caving to demands that he chooses his battle before conference, and to me, that's quite courageous on his part)......

Some Say he is not leading (although the bill has apparently gotten to where it had never gotten to before, which to me shows that he is indeed leading)......

Some Say that he is playing checkers, not chess (although apparently those same people don't want to understand that "Making sausage" means that Conference is where the final bill is shaped, and this is the bill where no amendments are allowed to bastardize the bill, and the one where 60 votes are only required for Cloture, and not the final vote on the actual bill)......

Some Say....that this President has made a "mess of this" through lack of communication.....(although I believe that this lack of communication has actually gotten many of us off our ass,
and actively participating....so to me, he communicated clearly that he needs us to be active much more than we need him to be hollering out what he thinks (which we want to be what we think).

What I can say is that it appears that this President is used to and can take the 5 minutes of hate that he is being showered with while he works at making things happen....rather than to be absorbed at keeping his supporters happy and smiling and loving him throughout the entire process....a process that has never gotten this far in 50 years.

I'm just glad that this President is not so arrogant to the point that he can't take the heat in the process of making the Sausage. I'm glad that his ego is not fragile or his primary concern, but that getting a bill is.

There will be the tale that is told after-the-fact.....and that is when what Some Said will be written into the annals of history.....

But till then, we should continue with the speculations, and those who need to
should please add their dash of hate....
cause after all, I do believe that this President can take it. :patriot:

[FrenchieCat]

1. 1 Un rec = 1 millisecond of hate......

thank you for that, cause I can take it too! :patriot:

[Better Today]

2. I agree with your premise sort of. But if we were not questioning, and pressuring, he might think

we don't really care about what we get. So I think we should all keep up our skepticism and our pressure and our challenges to his integrity.

[FrenchieCat]

5. I encourage debate, as well as skeptiscim.....

and that is my exact point in this op,
that he doesn't seem to mind it either.

So I agree with you.....

[depakid]

3. Some say the proof of the pudding is in the eating...

Ultimately, the administration (and the Dems in Congress) will be judged by how successful the policies that they put in place are.

If they're skewed at the outset toward corporate interests (and inevitable fail) -then that will become clear to folks before too long.

[FrenchieCat]

6. proof of the pudding is in the eating,,,,is correct.

We shall see what that pudding looks like very shortly......

[ipaint]

12. Hopefully at some point it will become important to not make the same mistakes as we have

in the past and as other countries have in their histories. Until then we get to re-invent the same faulty wheel and then claim we can't possibly have been able to predict the disastrous consequences when it collapses...again.

Who could have known??? :eyes:

[FrenchieCat]

18. Speculate on with your pronouncements and warnings.........

it is what makes our democracy work!
Ain't it great that you have a voice too....even if it is only one of many? :patriot:

[ipaint]

20. Why thanks and equating disagreement and criticism with hatred is certainly your perogative.

For the record I don't think people who disagree with me or criticize people I support are doing it out of hatred. It's certainly your right to feel otherwise so speculate on.

[FrenchieCat]

21. Saying that this President lacks courage, conviction, does not communicate effectively,

is not leading, or is a "corporatist" to be nothing more than hatred, because there is no proof for any of those names he is being called at this time. That's why I call it hatred; because these are statements based on emotions, and not any hard evidence. They are meant to diminish and dog him....and they are personal in nature....as they attack his personal integrity.

If you haven't called the President names that belittle his character, then I'm not talking about you and what you are doing.

[ipaint]

24. Ain't it great that you have a voice too....even if it is only one of many?

:patriot: :applause:

[FrenchieCat]

25. Of course I am.....

And especially during this administration,
because I do believe that they are listening,
while the last administration did not at all.
That is a great big difference and should be noted. :hi:

[depakid]

19. Trouble is that the US is indeed exceptional in terms of its government structure

There's a reason why only Liberia and the Philippines use the American system (and those countries governments reflect historical accident, more than "rational" choice).

Due to ill considered Supreme Court decisions equating corporate money with free speech and the Senate's undemocratic nature and arcane rules, it's extremely difficult- and in some cases practically impossible to solve major problems in the 21st Century until it's "too late."

To use http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karl_Deutsch">Karl Deutsch's language- the political system has lost its steering mechanisms and can no longer respond to feedback in a timely and effective manner. Such systems whether political, economical, ecological or otherwise inevitably contract- or collapse.

Dealing with the fragmented and unsustainable health care situation is proving to be no exception- and has been exacerbating the nation's decline for the past two decades. Yet the obvious solution to the problem- single payer based on the Canadian or Australian model remains anathema.

[ipaint]

28. That definately has been the case in the last 40 years or so.

And especially since reagan. Today you can't be president without being a corporatist. But I didn't invest personally in the hope meme so it's easier to see that nothing major really has changed much. If real healthcare reform, terror policy changes, adherence to rule of law, etc, where being changed as everyone "hoped" wall street would be screaming bloody murder.

Instead it's the same old back and forth resulting in very little real progress.

[Catshrink]

4. I still believe this:

[Clio the Leo]

27. yep .... until someone shows me otherwise. ;-) NT

[JTFrog]

7. K&R

[dolphindance]

8. K&R - Frenchie is one of the reasons I still come to this board. (eom)

[FrenchieCat]

17. That's a very nice thing for you to say......

but you may note that I'm not posting as much as I did before....
part of it is that I'm also letting the sausage process happen,
and most of what I have to say these days, I say it in the way
of letters to anyone who will read them.....as well as phone calls.

I have quite a bit of confidence in this President.....
but that doesn't mean I have 100% confidence in this President,
because there are so many moving parts
that cannot be controlled.

What I will say is that this President hears us, know what we are saying,
and knows what we want. He also knows what he wants, and I believe that
what he wants is effective legislation that will not make what is bad worse....
There is certainly differences on how to best get there...
and he has his own strategy, and so till the legislation process is complete,
he'll take the heat....cause long range goals never happen
due to one's day's "Some Say" news report.....

He did say that this will be be called "his" bill in the annals of history,
and he's not about to pass anything
that he won't be proud of in the end....
and because of this accountability that he acknowledges, no matter who wrote the various bills,
I give him the benefit of the doubt that he will get us through....
but that doesn't mean I stop working and only watch what he does....
cause I don't think that is what he wants.

:hi:

[dolphindance]

22. But I think you put things quite well. Obama doesn't need to get "cheers" along the way.

So he doesn't mind that supporters may be frustrated or even berate him while this complicated process works itself out. He is playing the long game and knows that in the end it is the result that people will care about.

Honestly, I say that only at about mid term can we really start laying down some grades on Obama.

Also, I really don't think he cares if people believe the insurance companies are getting a boon in this.

All he wants to know is: Does X person who didn't have insurance before, have it now and at a cheap rate. Right there he made a tangible difference in this person's life. And this guy likely didn't give a fuck about some ideological debate about whether health care should be for profit or not. He just wants health care, PERIOD.

[FrenchieCat]

23. Agreed.....

:thumbsup:

[firedupdem]

9. K&R! n/t

[IndianaGreen]

10. People didn't vote for insurance reform, they voted for universal health care

and woe to the politician that turns around and blames the voters for being stupid in believing in universal health care.

[Aramchek]

14. woe to the fool who thinks Obama is stupid or a 'Corporatist'

[FrenchieCat]

15. I doubt that you will be satisfy with anything that comes out of anywhere.......

and if you are, then it will be something else that you will be disatisfied with...

but you know, that's ok too.....
We didn't vote for a perfect person to be President,
and so he ain't gonna be perfect,
and there will always be something.....
So carry on, cause we need you there! :patriot:

[inna]

29. +1. exactly. nt

[Hippo_Tron]

31. How do you know what "people" voted for?

[Raine1967]

11. K&R

I can take the heat too.

[Raine1967]

13. And I really DID Rec the post!

:D

[ZombieHorde]

16. K&R&nt

[Clio the Leo]

26. I dont think I'm QUITE ready.....

..... to start doubting the methods the folks who ran THAT campaign last year might use to get something done in the very legislative body they just campaigned to get out OF. I just cant make that logical leap so soon.


Forgive me. Rah rah, sis boom bah and all that. ;)

[Armstead]

30. It's bullshit to refer to criticism as "five minutes of hate"...You are being orwellian yourself...

The whole theme of 1984 was that no one can criticize the Glorious Leaders no matter how badly they might screw things up.

By characterizing those here and now who question or criticize Obama's handling of something that is very important, you are being Orwellian.

"Only Goldstein disapproves of Obama's leadership style on this issue. Hate Goldstein ."

[FrenchieCat]

32. 5 minutes of hate doesn't have as much to do with 1984 as you would want in this OP....

The point is everyone is free to criticize however much they want.
My precise point is that Pres. Obama can take it.....

How can you criticize that? :shrug:

[Armstead]

33. Maybe if you referred to it as "current criticism" rather than "five minute hate"

If your point is that Obama can take temporary criticism, that's reasonable. But you could make that point much more validly by not at the same time using an Orwellian buzzword to also cast such denigrating descriptions of peolpoe who are unhappy with the way he is handling things.

[FrenchieCat]

34. I'll refer to it as I see fit......

if you don't mind.

Obama can take criticism period.....cause far as I can see, it hasn't let up since before the election!

But no matter, my point was made very clear, and if you didn't get it...Well, what can I say? :shrug:

[Armstead]

35. And I can respond as I see fit...

Reasonably to a reasonable post, pissily to a pissy post

[FrenchieCat]

36. and so you have!

:hi: