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Does anyone here think Castro and Chavez are praising Obama to weaken him at home?

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PretzelWarrior Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-24-09 03:59 PM
Original message
Does anyone here think Castro and Chavez are praising Obama to weaken him at home?
If the power of Obama's charm and diplomacy really is having such an effect, do you think the Latin American leaders who have historically been so against the United States and its foreign policy are really having a change of heart? Or is this a change in strategy?

They can read the papers and the blogs and must know this embrace by them helps feed the right wing noise machine as they attempt to stoke fears and anger from their base.
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Mika Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-24-09 04:01 PM
Response to Original message
1. Yes. Its part of their plan to take down America.
Edited on Thu Sep-24-09 04:02 PM by Mika
:sarcasm:






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LakeSamish706 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-24-09 04:02 PM
Response to Original message
2. I don't think so, cause I doubt that either Castro or Chevez want another Bush in...
power in the US anytime soon.
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d_b Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-24-09 04:03 PM
Response to Original message
3. ...
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Bucky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-24-09 04:05 PM
Response to Original message
4. I don't think that's quite it. Their motives have to do with their weaknesses & age
They're both kinda has-beens. Obama's got the world mojo. By praising him, they're trying to stay socially relevant to the younger generations back home who are growing tired of authoritarian (Chavez) and totalitarian (Castro) constraints. It's mostly me-tooism. In the big picture I don't think either is so naive to think they can manipulate world opinion by double bankshot reverse psychology. To even try that would mean psychologically admitting that they themselves were, somehow, the "bad guys."
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PretzelWarrior Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-24-09 04:08 PM
Response to Reply #4
5. good points. that may be it. trying to hang with "the cool kids"
and I do know Castro would feel he had achieved something if US/Cuba are well on the path to removing the embargo.
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Mika Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-24-09 04:13 PM
Response to Reply #5
7. My goodness.
Edited on Thu Sep-24-09 04:14 PM by Mika
... I do know Castro would feel he had achieved something ..."

Too bad that so many here are posting pronouncements with such a lack of knowledge about Cuba.



Before the 1959 revolution

  • 75% of rural dwellings were huts made from palm trees.
  • More than 50% had no toilets of any kind.
  • 85% had no inside running water.
  • 91% had no electricity.
  • There was only 1 doctor per 2,000 people in rural areas.
  • More than one-third of the rural population had intestinal parasites.
  • Only 4% of Cuban peasants ate meat regularly; only 1% ate fish, less than 2% eggs, 3% bread, 11% milk; none ate green vegetables.
  • The average annual income among peasants was $91 (1956), less than 1/3 of the national income per person.
  • 45% of the rural population was illiterate; 44% had never attended a school.
  • 25% of the labor force was chronically unemployed.
  • 1 million people were illiterate ( in a population of about 5.5 million).
  • 27% of urban children, not to speak of 61% of rural children, were not attending school.
  • Racial discrimination was widespread.
  • The public school system had deteriorated badly.
  • Corruption was endemic; anyone could be bought, from a Supreme Court judge to a cop.
  • Police brutality and torture were common.

    ___



    After the 1959 revolution
    http://www.hartford-hwp.com/archives/43b/185.html

    “It is in some sense almost an anti-model,” according to Eric Swanson, the programme manager for the Bank’s Development Data Group, which compiled the WDI, a tome of almost 400 pages covering scores of economic, social, and environmental indicators.

    Indeed, Cuba is living proof in many ways that the Bank’s dictum that economic growth is a pre-condition for improving the lives of the poor is over-stated, if not, downright wrong.

    -

    It has reduced its infant mortality rate from 11 per 1,000 births in 1990 to seven in 1999, which places it firmly in the ranks of the western industrialised nations. It now stands at six, according to Jo Ritzen, the Bank’s Vice President for Development Policy, who visited Cuba privately several months ago to see for himself.

    By comparison, the infant mortality rate for Argentina stood at 18 in 1999;

    Chile’s was down to ten; and Costa Rica, at 12. For the entire Latin American and Caribbean region as a whole, the average was 30 in 1999.

    Similarly, the mortality rate for children under the age of five in Cuba has fallen from 13 to eight per thousand over the decade. That figure is 50% lower than the rate in Chile, the Latin American country closest to Cuba’s achievement. For the region as a whole, the average was 38 in 1999.

    “Six for every 1,000 in infant mortality - the same level as Spain - is just unbelievable,” according to Ritzen, a former education minister in the Netherlands. “You observe it, and so you see that Cuba has done exceedingly well in the human development area.”

    Indeed, in Ritzen’s own field, the figures tell much the same story. Net primary enrolment for both girls and boys reached 100% in 1997, up from 92% in 1990. That was as high as most developed nations - higher even than the US rate and well above 80-90% rates achieved by the most advanced Latin American countries.

    “Even in education performance, Cuba’s is very much in tune with the developed world, and much higher than schools in, say, Argentina, Brazil, or Chile.”

    It is no wonder, in some ways. Public spending on education in Cuba amounts to about 6.7% of gross national income, twice the proportion in other Latin American and Caribbean countries and even Singapore.

    There were 12 primary school pupils for every Cuban teacher in 1997, a ratio that ranked with Sweden, rather than any other developing country. The Latin American and East Asian average was twice as high at 25 to one.

    The average youth (age 15-24) illiteracy rate in Latin America and the Caribbean stands at 7%. In Cuba, the rate is zero. In Latin America, where the average is 7%, only Uruguay approaches that achievement, with one percent youth illiteracy.

    “Cuba managed to reduce illiteracy from 40% to zero within ten years,” said Ritzen. “If Cuba shows that it is possible, it shifts the burden of proof to those who say it’s not possible.”

    Similarly, Cuba devoted 9.1% of its gross domestic product (GDP) during the 1990s to health care, roughly equivalent to Canada’s rate. Its ratio of 5.3 doctors per 1,000 people was the highest in the world.

    The question that these statistics pose, of course, is whether the Cuban experience can be replicated. The answer given here is probably not.

    “What does it, is the incredible dedication,” according to Wayne Smith, who was head of the US Interests Section in Havana in the late 1970s and early 1980s and has travelled to the island many times since.




    Cubans want normalization between the US and Cuba, and they have thrown their doors open to us, but, it is our US government that prevents what the majority of Americans want their government to do - normalize relations. Worse yet, the US government forbids and has criminalized travel to Cuba by Americans - something that Cuba hasn't done.



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    PretzelWarrior Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-24-09 04:17 PM
    Response to Reply #7
    8. ookaaayyyy...
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    Bucky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-24-09 04:47 PM
    Response to Reply #8
    14. Once again, PretzelWarrior, you have been bested in the annual cut-n-paste duel.
    You are slow to highlight, slow to type "Ctrl+C", and painfully tortoise like in typing "Ctrl+V"--how do you expect to win any arguments around here if you can't cut and paste mounds of irrelevant data dumps at the mention of the word "Cuba"?

    I mean, what the heck are you even doing... thinking through through your points before you post them?
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    Mika Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-24-09 04:10 PM
    Response to Reply #4
    6. Right. (NOT!)
    Edited on Thu Sep-24-09 04:15 PM by Mika
    "It's mostly me-tooism" :rofl:


    Latin America was the only region where wealth actually increased last year
    http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=405x22332

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    Bucky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-24-09 04:42 PM
    Response to Reply #6
    13. Did you notice how I offered a contrary opinion without being immature?
    And seriously... "(Not!)"? You're really retreading tired jokes from Wayne's World? Oh, brother...

    You do at least offer a string of an argument--that wealth increased 3% in Latin America last year. Sadly, it's a nonsequiter. I was talking about popularity, not economic growth. Obama still draws adoring "rock star" calibre crowds of well wishers wherever he goes. Castro and Chavez to not. Economic growth stats at best only marginally affect these popularity contest public perceptions. Anyway, while Latin America's economic growth is a welcome development, you need to understand the context--they're starting out from much lower benchmarks and standards of living. Bush may have contracted the US economy, but the US still has an enviable standard of living viewed from the streets of Havana or Caracas.

    It's a stunningly obvious point. Did you really need me to point that out to you, or were you just practicing your bad manners?
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    grantcart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-24-09 04:17 PM
    Response to Original message
    9. No they are trying to enhance their own international and domestic standing
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    LaPera Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-24-09 04:27 PM
    Response to Original message
    10. More like truth & revelation after Bush * neocons, it's a matter of survival for them both.
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    Bucky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-24-09 04:54 PM
    Response to Reply #10
    16. I have to disagree here. Bush's regional bumbling has helped Chavez greatly
    Chavez is much more popular in South America because of Bush. Bush's one-side corporate ass sucking so turned off the voters of Latin America that the once lonely Chavez now has a number of rock solid allies. Had it been "President Gore" since 2001 Hugo Chavez would be writing his memoirs by now.
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    Lord Helmet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-24-09 04:28 PM
    Response to Original message
    11. No, they are trying to boost their street cred.
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    inna Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-24-09 04:36 PM
    Response to Original message
    12. i didn't realize they were praising him.

    links?...
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    RedCloud Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-24-09 04:49 PM
    Response to Original message
    15. Russia allows US jet flighters to fly over their air. Are they in on the fix too?
    You talk as if they are our enemies. Let me remind you, quite sincerely, that when that motherfucking Bush was President he allowed New Orleans to get devastated (Democratic stronghold) by Katrina and Chávez and Castro warned him and then offered aid, no strings attached and that fuck head turned them down and other nations. We had the shits for a President.
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    OHdem10 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-24-09 05:15 PM
    Response to Original message
    17. They probably genuinely mean what they say. They also probably
    could care less what others say about them. They have
    big egos.
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    Douglas Carpenter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-24-09 06:11 PM
    Response to Original message
    18. no, I think they genuinely prefer a less antagonistic U.S. government
    Just as Russia and governments in the Middle East and around the world prefer a less antagonistic U.S. governments. It would be in their self-interest to think that way.

    Additionally, ordinary people around the world, even in places such as Cuba and Venezuela tend to react positively to President Obama's style. Mr. Castro and Mr. Chavez are simply making statements that would be well received domestically.
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    polichick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-24-09 06:22 PM
    Response to Reply #18
    19. +1
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    Clio the Leo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-24-09 06:39 PM
    Response to Original message
    20. Even the whack jobs can see how awesome he is....
    .... the difference between THOSE whack jobs and the ones we normally talk about, is that the 30%-ers have a vested interest in seeing Obama fail.

    Quadaffi lives in the world President Obama is improving. He cant help but appreciate him.
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    BootinUp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-24-09 07:32 PM
    Response to Original message
    21. Not likely
    are you suggesting they would prefer a Republican President?
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    Juche Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-24-09 07:47 PM
    Response to Original message
    22. I'm not sure what is going on
    I read that members of Al Qaeda debated online and decided they wanted McCain to win in 2008. I know its not really controversial to say that here on DU, but the belief was that McCain would continue to support policies that infuriated and alienated the world, increased terrorist recruitment (torture, aggressive wars), ignored anti-terror efforts in Afghanistan/Pakistan to focus on Iraq instead and depleted the US treasury.


    Not long after Obama won Al Qaeda called him a 'house negro'. So on some level his appeal as a self made black son of an African immigrant is appealing, and makes the US less hateable.
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    Sky Masterson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-24-09 07:49 PM
    Response to Original message
    23. I think he is just a likable guy that doesn't come off as arrogant.
    Edited on Thu Sep-24-09 07:50 PM by Sky Masterson
    I think the world isn't used to that..
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    WestSeattle2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-24-09 08:04 PM
    Response to Reply #23
    25. That's my take, too. Many world leaders are used to us
    having an arrogant no-nothing prick sitting in the White House, that having someone who is normal, intelligent, and congenial is shocking.
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    rmp yellow Donating Member (136 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-24-09 07:56 PM
    Response to Original message
    24. Are you suggesting that by criticizing Bush, Chavez sought to strengthen him?
    I find that preposterous. Chavez simply knows that a Democrat is less crazy than Bush or a Republicans. Republicans could invade any innocent country based on lies or any weak rationale. Obama won't do that and it makes Chavez and other Presidents feel safer.
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