OK Folks. Those of you who know me know I can be convinced.

[YOY]

I am seeing the glass as half empty.

I am seeing a third way proposal that should have been proposed by the other side (had they actually a point in existing other than taking up air) being called "progressive" and it doesn't fit the definition.

I am seeing a whole bunch of folks not get coverage and the "must buy insurance" crapola that scared me away from another Democrat during the primaries (not to hash up any old wounds but it was part of my decision.)

I am seeing continuance of profits flowing into insurance company's coffers with a few more restrictions on them for non-coverage in exchange for tort reform.

I'm seeing a public option for a small percentage of those how have no option.

I'm feeling that it's better than nothing but it's more like treating the symptoms and not the disease.

I truly want to neither see this nor feel this...well I did like the speach but that's a point of O's ability as an Orator.

Somebody talk me down. Civilly. Please. I'll listen.

and look: if you're gonna knee jerk unrec please at least try to reasonably tell me why I shouldn't feel this way. I promise that I will consider it.

[YOY]

1. THanks for the Unrec. Whoever.

I really want to be talked down. Not brushed off. I'll listen (read and consider). Really I will.

[villager]

2. The un-bots are like that; so twitchy and well-programmed they can't even help it...

n/t

[OwnedByFerrets]

3. I countered it, but if you arent a "true believer" today, you

get hit with a barrage of un-recs.

[YOY]

4. They can make me believe if they really have something. I will listen.

n.t.

[DevonRex]

27. I am one of those that the poster would count as a "true believer." Yet I did NOT unrec your thread

And I responded below. Probably too long, but I hope you read it since I took the trouble to write it. Don't you hate it when you pour your heart out and nobody reads it?

Well, I read your OP and I appreciate your questions. And I took your OP in the spirit in which it was meant.

[YOY]

30. and your reponse rocked.

I just want one honest "let's talk" conversation. Not a cheerleaders versus trolls party.

It's a lot to ask for an internet forum.

[NoPasaran]

33. Here's another one

Hope it was as good for you as it was for me.

[YOY]

36. Thanks for the mature conversation...

See downstream. It's happening without you. Like I said "It's a lot to ask from an internet forum."

[YOY]

78. ANYONE THINKING OF UNREC ACTUALLY READ THE FUCKING THREAD.

There is conversation and thought sharing here.

But fuck everythings gotta be cheerleaders versus concern trolls, no?

[DJ13]

5. I cant talk you down, because you're right

We went into this effort at reform knowing it was to get the 47m people without insurance covered, but the reform now being offered doesnt even cover half those people.

And yet, the "anything is better than nothing" "I want to believe in Hope" people dont seem to care anymore, they just want Obama to "win" this hollow victory.

[eleny]

6. Tell your reps, tell the president and keep fighting

I agree with you. But like Anne Bancroft in the movie The Prisoner of Second Avenue, I'm sitting on the edge of the tub, banging on the pipes and yelling, "Where's My WATER? I want my WATER!!!".

[Skittles]

7. there's nothing to talk down, YOY

you got it

[HereSince1628]

8. hmmm, third wave?

Does that point to the DLC

or does that point to phalangists on the Iberian peninsula?

Considering the philosophies of both groups, coroporate loving proposals in the name of the common man could have come from either.

[YOY]

9. I didn't say "wave". I said "way",

n.t.

[HereSince1628]

17. And I meant to write "way" not wave, Third Way is shorthand

for the DLC and the phalangist movement active in Portugal and Spain.

[emilyg]

10. k/r

[Egnever]

11. Unrecced just cause you mentioned unrec

as far as the chicken little thing goes.... well, call your congress critter tell them your concerns.

[RDANGELO]

12. The bill that comes out of this will not be the end of it.

The political reality is that there are a lot people who are afraid of the government and concerned about the costs. They think that we can have a totally for profit system and cover everybody at a reasonable cost. After it is proven to them otherwise, we will have further reform. As long as the majority of the people rate universal health care as a moral imperative, we will get there eventually.

Prediction: Obama will run for releection on a strong public option.

[Clio the Leo]

13. What are your thoughts on states requiring auto insurance?

If you are opposed to that, then we have a different view on the world, yours, perhaps, with a more libertarian slant, mine with one that says certain restrictions must be placed on the public to promote the common good. (I'm a socialist, sorry.)

However, there'd be a hardship waiver for those who could not afford the mandate .... the idea being, of course, that insurance would be, generally, more affordable.

Now, might I suggest that your phrases "glass half empty" "third way" "Crapola" "scared" "profits flowing into insurance companies coffers" etc. are making it SEEM like your mind is made up, no matter what anyone else says. ;)

[YOY]

14. I think my wife didn't have a license for 33 years of her life.

Because for most of them she didn't need a car or someone else was driving.

Therefore she didn't need auto insurance (European...didn't need a car as some Urban Americans don't.). She has needed to go to the doctor.

When I was in college I didn't have a car for 2 years. I didn't need insurance. I did need medical coverage.

It's not really a good comparison. Yes I can be convinced of anything except that left is right and up is down.

[Clio the Leo]

31. again....

"we have a different view on the world, yours, perhaps, with a more libertarian slant, mine with one that says certain restrictions must be placed on the public to promote the common good. (I'm a socialist, sorry.)"

There is simply NO excuse for someone to NOT get health insurance. I dont CARE that we're free individuals and should have right screw ourselves over if we so choose. It's all a part of "promote the general welfare" as far as I'm concerned.

And yes ........ you have to wear your seatbelt too! Comrade! lol

[YOY]

35. I am totally not a libertarian.

And driving a car does not equal going to the doctor.

That is why if people cannot afford basic health care...it must be given to them. Not forcibly sold to them.

What you are proposing is not socialism nor a socialistic plan by the weakest definition. It's expecting people to pay the private market for something that is not a luxury by any stretch.

If you drive a car but don't have a licence or insurance it's criminal. Won't argue...you're a danger to yourself and others even if your excuse is that you can't afford it. If you go to the doctor and you don't have it because you can't afford it well...I don't know what repercussions it will have but it is not on the same playing field let alone level.

Look Grantcart and a few others have some good responses and justifications. I am not trying to be rude or nasty but the Health insurance = car insurance is just not a good one on any level.

[Clio the Leo]

37. lol @ "not totally libertarian"

I can SMELL y'all a mile away!!!!

(i'm just messin' with you)

[OwnedByFerrets]

46. You state that there is simply NO excuse for someone NOT

to get health insurance. Did you really mean "have", not get? Because I can think of lots of reasons that individuals and families don't GET health insurance. One of them might be the choice between feeding your children or buying insurance.
Please expound, if you will.

If, instead, you meant "have", then I agree. Health care should be a right, not a privilege.

[sybylla]

25. Good car insurance doesn't cost me half my salary.

Driving a car is a privilege, not a right. I don't need a license to go to the doctor, just thousands of dollars. And there's a hell of a lot more competition for auto insurance than health insurance for most people.

[Clio the Leo]

32. And if his plan goes into effect....

.... the problems of cost and competition would be alleviated.

[sybylla]

39. That has nothing to do with requiring that I buy health insurance

which was your original point. It's apples and oranges to compare it to requiring people to buy car insurance.

Secondly, there were no specifics in the President's speech last night to address cost controls. Only vague promises that tort reform and a public option that may or may not be available - oh, and tax credits for those who pay taxes.

Besides that, I can't wait four years. My business is going under now. Demanding I throw half my income into something that's excessively overpriced and will only enrich insurance fat cats will insure I cannot continue.

[OwnedByFerrets]

47. Cost and competition would be alleviated?

I dont see it. How do you figure that?

[Love Bug]

71. You're absolutly right!

My auto insurance costs me about $40/month. When I lost my job last year, COBRA was $800. After the stimulus passed this spring, that dropped to just a bit over $200. That's single coverage only. Even $200/month is still going to be too much for a lot of people. There is no comparison.

No one ever died from not having a car. Far too many people have died from not having health care insurance.

[Dr Fate]

68. I take the bus. AKA " the public option." Driving is a choice, cancer is not.

n/t

[dbonds]

15. We all prefer the single payer concept...

What we have is a first step. Medicare didn't start out as the program we have now either. It is good enough for a first step to support it, knowing there will be modifications later.

[grantcart]

16. as a habitual half full guy here is what is being accomplished

1) The principle that the market works is now dead.

2) The Obama plan would establish an important principle: The Federal Government is responsible for regulating Health Insurance Companies.

3) Health Insurance companies will now have to accept EVERY SINGLE APPLICANT EVEN IF THEY HAVE AIDS.

4) The Health Insurance companies will NEVER BE ABLE TO DROP ANYONE.

5) There will be a cap on your out of pocket expenseses and copays.

6) The Public Option will be operational. Even if everone will not be able to buy it everyone will be able to compare what they have against it. That will provide an embarassing point of contention for the private companies. In the future more and more people will demand to have it and the wedge will be established. Simple math and economics will prove the public option a better solution.

7) Canada did not go single payer in one step. The next step will be to pass the Kucinich ammendment. A few states like Vermont will go single payer and the inevitable move to single payer will begin.

8) From now on out if people are unhappy with their health care they will have an avenue to complain - see #2 above.


It isn't a huge step but in this case taking a real first step is big. From now on even the Republicans will not be able to argue that it isn't the province of the Federal Government to fix health care.

[Cha]

22. I'm glad I clicked on to this thread

just so I could read this..thanks,grant.

[YOY]

24. Well that does help.

Of course the goblins hitting unrec aren't helping any mature conversation.

Thanks fora well thought out response. That's what I was looking for.

[grantcart]

43. my pleasure

[polichick]

34. True - these are indeed the high points. It isn't the kind of change...

...we really need ~ just as we haven't seen the kind of change we really need regarding banks ~ but it's a start.

[lumberjack_jeff]

55. very well said. n/t

[Spazito]

58. Well said, grantcart...

Canada, indeed, did NOT go universal in one step and, just a heads up, even once we finally passed the Canada Health Act, to this day we HAVE to fight continually to keep it from being further watered down or totally privatized as Conservative governments and insurance companies are constantly trying to do. The fight doesn't end, ever.

[ScreamingMeemie]

18. You are seeing what I am seeing...

but I am telling myself that this is better than continuing on as if those who cannot afford it don't deserve it. I am hopeful for a "hammering out" as years go by.

[dionysus]

19. i am optimistic we can improve the bill in conference.

i wish we could just start over and go single payer but we both know that's not going to happen, seeing as we can barely get enough dems to support what's being proposed in all the different comittees

[DevonRex]

23. +1. And...

Can you imagine what would happen to the economy right now if all the insurance companies had to go out of business? Most people shrug that off. But it's a huge industry that employs many, many people. I hate insurance companies, myself. But I don't want all those employees to lose their jobs overnight, either.

[dionysus]

40. getting rid of the health insurance companies would have to be done in phases, i don't think you

get the support otherwise.

:hi:

[asdjrocky]

20. Dude, I just don't know.

Right now, I feel hopful and happy and while I never expected to get everything I wanted, I think we may, may be closer.

[DevonRex]

21. I'm just glad you asked legitimate questions and are willing to hear the

answers. I've never considered you to be a knee-jerk "anti" person at all.

First, let me tell you how I finally accepted that single payer is not possible right now:

I would prefer Medicare for everyone. But I know that the health insurance industry is huge in this country. I also know that the economy is still terrible; therefore, I know that we cannot get rid of insurance companies at this point. Because of that conclusion, I have realized that for now we have to accept something other than Medicare for everybody.

Second, the number of folks who would be eligible for a public option is not finite. Some may be eligible now because they're unemployed or underemployed. Some may become eligible if they lose their jobs in the future. Some may only work part time, even at various jobs, but don't qualify for company insurance. Others may be eligible if their companies do not provide insurance at all. So the number is always in flux. Over time, the number of people who have the opportunity to choose the public option will actually grow. I have not seen anything that says they must get OFF the public option if their situation changes, but that may be so.

Thirdly, most of us who "can" buy insurance already do so. So nothing changes there. For the few people who don't already have insurance but "can" afford it, they will have to buy it. Usually these are young people in their first good job who think they'll never have a serious accident or illness. And when they do, they can't pay for their care out of pocket. Nobody could. Those are the costs that we all absorb one way or another.

We get our insurance through the Federal Government. We pay much less in premiums than it would cost if we had to buy it on the open market. Often our copays are higher as a result, but they are generally affordable. I wish everyone had the insurance we get - that is, if insurance has to be in the mix at all. I wish we had Medicare for all. But since it isn't possible at this time, I just want to make sure that all Americans have the good options I have under the Fed plan. We even get dental coverage. It's not fantastic but it's much less than having to pay the full price if we didn't have that coverage. Our Fed plan also prohibits insurance companies from denying care because of pre-existing conditions and it also prohibits an annual or lifetime cap on benefits.

Not perfect, but it's a good way to start.

[YOY]

29. Yours and GrantCarts are the answers I need. That's what we all need.

My main concern about a migration to single payer (if/when) would be the unemployment.

Partially I can justify this by saying a good deal of the rank and file would be transitioned (via govt. employeeship or contracting to the government)...part of it would not. The big wigs of the companies would fall flat on their savings (unless they transitioned to HC services vending) but the little and middle would and could get hurt.

[mvd]

48. Yep, I prefer single payer, but we'll have to migrate the workers over

That would have to be done in phases.

[YOY]

49. If only we knew for sure they were coming.

Perhaps me of little faith.

Of course if we did actually know that is was coming in phases, the insurance companies would have time to reinvest elsewhere...perhaps in a product that they could actually export and that wasn't manditory to own for the sake of living.

Yes, a direct and quickly enacted change over would cause a lot of chaos. No doubt about that

[mvd]

51. I believe that there can be private insurance..

to offer non-essential services. :hi:

[YOY]

52. Or the gaurantee of better accomodations etc... as in Great Britain?

Sure. Won't be hand over fist as it is now and they will be serving a group of people who can damage their reputation if they do not deliver a lot more than now. But the profit is there.

[asdjrocky]

53. That was great.

Mind if I commit that to memory so I can explain it to my friends in the rw?

[DevonRex]

57. Heh. Go right ahead.

Hopefully your memory is better than mine. :)

[asdjrocky]

60. I can do that.

Just don't ask me where my keys are.:smoke:

[DevonRex]

67. And are your glasses on top of your head when you can't find them?

That's where mine always are. And I won't talk about putting the coffee pot in the refrigerator.

[asdjrocky]

72. Oh shit!

There they are! Thanks.

Found my remote control in the frige the other day.

[polichick]

26. I am seeing pretty much that way too - the same scenario as with the banks...

...tinker around the edges but don't create the kind of "change you can believe in." Obama seems to want to keep our corporate institutions safe from real change.

[dolphindance]

41. Coproations provide jobs and deliver services. They do not need to be abolished. Only regulated.

Please have a more reasoned stance.

[polichick]

42. That's funny actually - since we have yet to regulate those banks...

Nothing reasonable about that.

[YOY]

44. and if they provide a product that is necessary to the public and cannot be exported

At this point they are parasitic. THey need to be socialized. No arguing. No value is added by their existance. The capital that they waste in their profits does not add to as much as that capital could be spent if it a portion of it was used for a government run system and the remainder invested elsewhere. The GNP is not increased and the services they provide are set to make a profit and not operate "at profit" or "at a loss" (From private POV.)

And yes. That means more medical care for less money for you. More money in your pocket means more investment elsewhere for you. More investment elsewhere means more jobs in the private industry where they need to be. DAMN YOU CAPITALISM! YOU EXCEL AND IMPROVE THINGS WHEN USED WHERE YOU BELONG AND REGULATED!!!

The opposite goes for government services that can be exported (ethically) and are not necessary to life. They need to be privatized but moderated. Can't think of too many things we haven't done there. Other countries have had this problem but we are peaked out and overdrawn into the private sector. Think of a former Communist country that can export their cars made by a government run automaker...they can benefit from free market perhaps. That works just fine in my book.

Of course there is the (sad) assumption that the private will always provide a better level of service for the same amount money. Tell that to the post office and the library...

[msallied]

28. The secret to all things in life:

Hope for the best, prepare for the worst. And be patient. We are all operating on the same amount of information here. It's just that some are better at spinning it and interpreting it to fit their own wishes or world view than others. However, I really love Grantcart's reasoned analysis above.

[YOY]

38. As did I.

He did well.

[mvd]

45. The President made lots of good proposals, which are listed above

Anyone know how strong the caps on expenses/co-pays are? That's important. Because with no public option and mandated coverage, insurers could have us pay through the roof for what they have to offer.

BTW, I gave you a rec.

[ChiciB1]

50. Can't Help You Out.. I AGREE With Your Observations & To Those Who Think

we ALL need to get behind "our" President and help him, I wonder just HOW that can happen!

All the phone calls, all the petitions, all the contacts with Senators & Representatives, all the letters written... and I KNOW there must have been hundreds of thousands... still this is what we got!

A great speech, but to me Big Pharma & Insurance companies look to be the winners! Even with all the "particular/non-particulars" Hatch says he doesn't think even ONE Senator will vote for what is being offered even NOW!

Do tell, how should we be supporting OUR President when what was said last night didn't seem to push the ball very far at all?? In fact, it seems we're getting less and less as time goes by!!!

[lumberjack_jeff]

54. Here is the basic problem statement

- nearly 50 million people lack coverage
- lower income people can't afford coverage.
- people with preexisting conditions can't get it at any price.
- 18,000 die each year because of it.
- 80% of bankruptcies are because of medical bills
- 80% of those had coverage, but because of rescission, they didn't have it when they needed it
- cost of care is 17% of GDP
- cost per person is roughly $7500 per person
- cost of care is projected to be 20% of GDP in 2017
- cost per person would be about $10,000
- that inflation is eating medicare and medicaid alive
- no one is really secure in their coverage
- people's lives (not just livelihood) are dependent on their employers

Here are the boundaries in which our political system works;
- most people have coverage that they are content with through their employer or the government.
- money controls this government. Insurance companies have lots.
- money controls public opinion. Insurance companies have lots.
- In the senate, the minority who are happy being big money prostitutes have disproportionate influence.
- when Obama leaves office in 2016, your personal, individual share of the national debt will be at least $50,000.

Whether those things "should be" is irrelevant. They just are.

To pass any reform
- those who have coverage they are happy with can't be scared.
- the insurance industry can't see reform as an immediate existential threat.
- reform can't add hugely to the national debt
- if we're going to pass reform through the senate, for procedural reasons, it needs to be (on paper) revenue neutral.

Given those things, I think the plan Obama articulated is the best possible scenario. Yes, I'd prefer that all employers could participate in the exchange on day one, but that would run the risk of swamping the public plan.

Personally, I think that the CBO is understating the popularity of the public plan.

[me b zola]

56. Two things that reassure me:

President Obama stated last night that a majority of voters and congress support a strong PO. He then went on to frame the PO as a reasonable, centrist position w/o disparaging SP or its supporters. I think that those things are important because he is dispelling the lies that keep getting repeated that a majority doesn't want reform with a PO. IMO, he is preparing conservadems that they indeed will vote for a public option.

The positive analysis upthread does a wonderful job of explaining how this will be the building blocks that will bring in real reform.

[YOY]

59. Who the fuck keeps on unreccing this? Read the damn thread!

It's all honest conversation!!! No knee jerking or name calling! No one is concern trolling, hating on anyone, or cheerleading at all!

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

62. My guess would be insecure dickheads.... OK so I called them names but really

the whole thing is so goddamn stupid. It's as if somehow questioning Obama's policies here is somehow going to bring his presidency down or some shit.

[YOY]

64. It's the internet...we shouldn't get upset.

Frankly I'm thrilled that some real conversation is happening and I have a bit of positive to counter my negative. Really GrantCart and DevonRex have some good stuff upstream.

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

65. Sure but even a post as mild as yours gets jumped on as you would have just said

something like "Bush was the greatest....."

[YOY]

77. F***ers keep doing it.

It was up to 18 and now it's like 10.

[johnaries]

61. Here's a couple of links from people who said it better than I could

On some very positive aspects of the bill:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=6514119&mesg_id=6514119

Regarding the mandate (this was written by Krugman before Obama supported a mandate):

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/12/07/opinion/07krugman.html?_r=1

From the Baltimore Sun on the possible effects of the speech:

http://weblogs.baltimoresun.com/news/opinion/2009/09/obamas_health_care_speech_to_c.html

I'd say the glass is by no means full, but it's much better than half full.
:toast:

[YOY]

63. Now that's some future reading.

Thanks!

[johnaries]

73. My pleasure. And as some obscure little rock band once sang...

"You can't always get what you want.
No, you can't always get what you want,
But if you try sometimes
You just might find
You get what you need."

[Dr Fate]

66. Considering the past 16 or so years, Liberalism is the new 3rd way.

The 1st way is conservatism, the 2nd way is DEMs caving in to conservatives and calling it "compromise." That is the status quo- the general rule. Folks are starting to see that all of this is not working as well as it should.

The REAL "3rd Way" these days would be to actually negotiate with Liberals- or just to flat out BE Liberal.

[ChiciB1]

75. NOTHING Wrong With That Assessment! Seems Liberals From The Past DID

actually stand their ground and got something done!! They stood up and when they didn't stand up like "we the people" wanted them to or when we felt they were not being OUR representatives, WE took to the streets and let them know it!!!

Yes, I do realize that protests aren't what they used to be, but when "birthers" & "deathers" can garner all the attention they have so far, I don't see why Democrats have to go all wimpy!! It's fine to compromise and work together, but when you can see that hand writing on the wall that THEY don't want to play nice, then it's time to STAND UP!!

As my father taught me a long time ago... If you don't stand for something, you'll fall for anything!! Sure THEY look STUPID, and THEY ARE STUPID, but that doesn't mean we can't call them out on it in a big way!!

It shows that we are willing to go to the mat, at least that much anyway!!!

[Dr Fate]

76. I'd just like to see Obama do more negotiating with Liberals. That would be a brand new "3rd way".

Seems like all the negotiating is done with Republicans & blue Dogs- you know, the guys who have been WRONG about nearly everything.

No one really asks Liberals for input- we are just expected to take what we get. This despite the fact that we were RIGHT about Bush for 8 years, while the Blue Dogs were WRONG.

We hear a lot about Conservative Blue Dog's "constituents"- but Moderate & Liberal congressmen have constituents too, after all.

[TheKentuckian]

69. I can't talk you down because the assesment is reasonable but the reaction is offbase, imo

I just don't see it as something to lament but as real steps in the right direction. Half empty/half full are the exact same thing and the one we have right now hasn't a drop.

Just keep in mind that there are NO proposals forthcoming from the other side that would do a damn thing so you can't say it is a Republican bill. There has never been such a thing.

The tort reform isn't a trade for the regulation but an effort to take away one of the GOP's couple of talking points and almost nothing will ever come from it unless it actually will buy some votes.

This is the first step on a long journey not it's end as many would dream. Part of what we are doing is moving this industry into the acceptable for Federal oversight area, which is fucking HUGE. If we had just made it this far before then we'd be working on single payer now.

[YOY]

70. This is where I am heading...

It's understanding the first step isn't a leap.

My worry to that would be that this would fall to the wayside like the updating of a livable minimum wage.

[johnaries]

74. Well said, well said. nt