John Conyers and Maxine Waters just drew lines in the sand on Big Ed's show...

[polichick]

They won't vote for anything that doesn't have a public option.

Ed is absolutely GLEEFUL!

[panader0]

1. I was watching and it made me gleeful too!

[polichick]

2. Me too - love how they pointed out that we've already compromised...

...by giving up single payer.

[pokercat999]

3. A compromise that should have taken place near the END of

negotiations not at the outset of basic ideas even before any negotiations have actually taken place. That is if you think single payer should have been given up at all.

[polichick]

4. Maybe some on our side need to play poker more often. nt

[pokercat999]

13. I would love to sit at the table with those babies. It would be

almost criminal to take their money, but I would.....lots of it.

[TheKentuckian]

21. How well can you bluff when playing against those who can see your cards?

How were we going to make a realistic push for something that had at most barely double digit votes in the Senate and a dicey proposition at best in the House?

The poker analogy is a lackluster fit as is the negotiation for property one. In order to bluff or negotiate you must at least have room for doubt and a starting point that the market can bear, even if it is way to the extreme. In this situation the opposition can just as easily count the votes as at least you and I. I knew the votes weren't possibly there for single payer as did anyone with any concept of reality. You think the insurance lobby and Senators are utterly clueless of who stands where?

It seems stupid to have to argue with people I agree with on the issue at large but it is annoying and silly to sort thorough out and out nonsense, the accompanying emotionalism, and the detachment from any reality.
When your nobody self knows good and well that the votes aren't even in the ball park then why would the rest of the world be blinded to the reality? Some pretend single payer was actually anywhere near viable so that they can pretend that the public option is some no brainer, chip shot when it was actually the upper end of possible with the current mix of conservatives and corporatist in the Senate, regardless of party ID.

I think people have become so emotional and desperate on this issue that all logic and contrary arguments are just plain lost, even when reality is sitting on their heads.

[pokercat999]

22. Geez if we only had your expertise we wouldn't have to try to

do anything we could just give up right out of the gate. Better yet all dems should resign and just turn over the country to the rethugs. Part of leadership is making em believe the impossible might be accomplished. Playing the hardest of hardball from the git go could have convinced enough members of congress that it was all on the line. Instead we get a tip, left on the pillow in the morning.

[defendandprotect]

7. And since when did we give up "single payer" . . .?????

[polichick]

8. Yeah - I get the feeling those two never gave it up either...

...but looks like our leaders did.

[LaPera]

5. "Mr. President, we have your back"!

ALL of us here at DU certainly do!

Kick the fucking republican minorities ass and shut the lying loud-mouth republicans hateful fuckers up!

We want & need Health Care with a strong Public Option NOW!

[polichick]

10. This is really getting interesting now - imo the craziness of August helped...

...in that it energized people, both regular citizens and our Congresscritters.

[Raine]

16. Yup WE WON, they LOST

and we need to kick them into the gutter where they belong! :mad:

[LaPera]

20. Yes, yes, yes....

Repubblicans will crawl out and suck U dry...if you choose to be frivolous.

[defendandprotect]

6. Reid right now is still promising "a place at the table for Repugs" .. .!!!

and mentions "reconciliation" ... evidently another out --

[polichick]

9. Well, nobody wants to lose Snowe - but I don't think reconciliation is out. nt

[Umbral]

19. Reid's already running for re-election. He's playing to His base. nt

[alcibiades_mystery]

11. Good...Baucus' plan is shit

Nothing is better than mandatory insurance with no public option.

[gkhouston]

14. Floating that puppy may prove to be a tactical mistake... it's so egregiously awful

and tone-deaf to the economic realities of everyday Americans that it makes Baucus and anyone who supports his plan look like a complete idiot.

[Cha]

12. Excellent..they're

helping the President and us!

[bigwillq]

15. Good for them!

:bounce: :thumbsup:

Keep on fighting the good fight! :)

[MasonJar]

17. Lawrence O'Donnell, who really understands Congress, says that

in the original bill the public option will probably pass the House but that when the bill comes back from the committee with the Senate and without the public option that the leadership will talk the members into standing with the president and pass the bill without the public option. There will actually end up with a bill with no public option. And it will be okay with Obama who just wants a bill. He does not understand, according to O'Donnell, that this is a different world than in the past when the dems just knew the liberals would be irritated but fall in line with no place to go. O'Donnell says that now with the internet it is a different ballgame (I am paraphrasing him; he did not say ballgame) in that liberal bloggers are going to go nuts. (Note this is all paraphrased but it is the gist of his comments.) In other words the progressives are going to be very angry and do something about it. Obama is going to be very sorry he did not support public option. It will probably end his whole presidency as such. Without liberals Obama is nothing; we elected him.

[polichick]

18. Thanks for the summary. I heard that too - very enlightening...

Does seem the WH forgot that all those people they activated to knock on doors for them weren't just empty-headed robots.

[Honeycombe8]

23. Amazingly strong leaders. It's no wonder Michael Moore singled

the Af. American women in the House out as being brave enough to come out against the Iraq War and call it like it was.

If Democratic leaders want examples on how to lead, they need to look at Conyers and Waters. They have the interests of the country at heart, and they stand their ground. Wow. It's impressive.

[dionysus]

24. good.

[harun]

25. Courage still exists!