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Democrats Need 51 Senate Votes to get things passed, not 60 votes like Republicans claim

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Better Believe It Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-30-09 03:37 PM
Original message
Democrats Need 51 Senate Votes to get things passed, not 60 votes like Republicans claim
Edited on Tue Jun-30-09 03:39 PM by Better Believe It
We just need 51 Senate votes, with or without reconciliation, to pass universal healthcare and other badly needed progressive legislation.

Even 50 votes will be enough with Vice-President Biden casting the tie breaking vote.

Don't let anyone b.s. you by claiming 60 votes are needed to pass a healthcare bill without reconciliation because the Republicans might threaten, or heaven forbid, might engaged in an actual Senate floor filibuster against the bill.

Let them! How long do you think they will obstruct the Senate by filibustering against a public option favored by a big majority of the people. The longer they filibuster the more they isolate themselves as anti-healthcare obstructionists.

All filibusters end. Make them get their cots out on the Senate floor, no phone in phantom filibusters will be allowed by the Democratic party. In current practice, Senate Rule 22 permits filibusters in which actual continuous floor speeches are not required, although the Senate Majority Leader may require an actual traditional filibuster if he or she so chooses.

We don't need the Republicans and even most so-called "Blue Dog" Democratic Senators will have to oppose a Senate filibuster against healthcare with a strong public option.

We'll get the 60 votes to end Senate debate, have no fear of that, and than the Senate can vote to pass the bill with a simple majority.

And of course, we can always keep the so-called "nuclear option" in our back pocket ready to deploy if necessary to stop any filibuster dead in its tracks!

One might think that only Republicans are permitted to use that option to hear some people whine.

Unless you have a bunch of whimps in the Senate, I think not. And if they are really that eager to wave the white towel of surrender at the slightest sign of opposition, how do they expect to prevent the Republicans from regaining control of the House, Senate and White House in 2012? That's exactly what will happen if the Democrats can't produce with their big majority in both houses of Congress and control of the White House.

If they don't pass universal healthcare with a public option now and if they don't stop this economic crisis from becoming a full scale economic depression, the Democrats are toast in 2012 .... they will go the way of Herbert Hoover and the Republican party of 1932.

It's now or never for President Obama and the Democratic Party. It won't get any better.

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Thrill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-30-09 03:45 PM
Response to Original message
1. You do need 60 for cloture
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Better Believe It Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-30-09 03:50 PM
Response to Reply #1
5. You mean 60 votes to end a real filibuster? If so, that's no problem!

So long as you don't permit Republicans to engage in a bogus "phone it in" filibuster.
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Thrill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-30-09 03:55 PM
Response to Reply #5
7. No to end debate. And actually vote on a nominee or legislation
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Uncle Joe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-30-09 03:46 PM
Response to Original message
2. I agree, the focus on the 60 votes is a fig leaf
used as cover to avoid making difficult choices which would benefit the American People but could cost some Senators corporate donations.

A macro version of good cop / bad cop.
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Doctor_J Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-30-09 03:48 PM
Response to Original message
3. COrrect, so Sotomajor's confirmation should start the day after
the July 4th break.
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Better Believe It Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-30-09 03:54 PM
Response to Reply #3
6. You don't want legislative/appointment hearings before Congressional votes are taken?

Why is that?

I don't see anyone advocating that.

Beating down a strawhorse perhaps?

Kinda sounds like it.

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BzaDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-30-09 03:49 PM
Response to Original message
4. You don't understand how a filibuster actually works. It can go on forever without any work at all.
Edited on Tue Jun-30-09 03:50 PM by BzaDem
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/02/23/the-myth-of-the-filibuste_n_169117.html

"The Myth Of The Filibuster: Dems Can't Make Republicans Talk All Night"

"Reid's office has studied the history of the filibuster and analyzed what options are available. The resulting memo was provided to the Huffington Post and it concludes that a filibustering Senator "can be forced to sit on the floor to keep us from voting on that legislation for a finite period of time according to existing rules but he/she can't be forced to keep talking for an indefinite period of time."

Bob Dove, who worked as a Senate parliamentarian from 1966 until 2001, knows Senate rules as well as anyone on the planet. The Reid analysis, he says, is "exactly correct."

To get an idea of what the scene would look like on the Senate floor if Democrats tried to force Republicans to talk out a filibuster, turn on C-SPAN on any given Saturday. Hear the classical music? See the blue carpet behind the "Quorum Call" logo? That would be the resulting scene if Democrats forced a filibuster and the GOP chose not to play along.

As both Reid's memo and Dove explain, only one Republican would need to monitor the Senate floor. If the majority party tried to move to a vote, he could simply say, "I suggest the absence of a quorum."

The presiding officer would then be required to call the roll. When that finished, the Senator could again notice the absence of a quorum and start the process all over. At no point would the obstructing Republican be required to defend his position, read from the phone book or any of the other things people associate with the Hollywood version of a filibuster."
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Better Believe It Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-30-09 04:18 PM
Response to Reply #4
8. So what's your point? Republicans don't have to filibuster to block legislation?

So the Republican Senator who is engaged in a filibuster wouldn't have to continously talk, according to Reid's in depth analysis.

So what?

Assuming Reid's analysis is not challenged or questioned on the floor of the Senate during an actual Republican filibuster, and it could be, what terrible thing would happen?

According to Senator Reid, the Republican Senator would have to stay on the Senate floor, without talking, until 60 Senators vote to throw the asshole off the Senate floor!

How long do you think that might take? An hour? A day? A week?

Well now, we should find out if that's what the Republicans really want to do.

Their "public be damed" anti-healthcare filibuster won't win them any friends and will isolate them and have the same political impact as a "talking" filibuster.

Let them filibuster .... just don't let them call it in!

Well, now let's see if any Democrats have come up with even more lame excuses for not challeging the Republicans.

Well, I've got it! Senator Reid could release a brand new hot of the press "analysis" indicating that the filibustering Senate Republican could leave the floor for lengthy breaks to go poddy, have dinner at a 5 star restaurant, nap on a Senate office bed, etc.,

That's the ticket! Make it easy for the Republicans!

No more lame excuses for inaction. No more cop-outs. No more whining. I've grown tired of them all. And so have most people, especially authentic progressives and liberals.

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Dr Fate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-30-09 05:29 PM
Response to Reply #8
16. It's called calling a bluff. THANK YOU for not accepting these lame-ass excuses any longer. n/t
n/t
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LaPera Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-30-09 04:22 PM
Response to Original message
9. Obama knows he'll have 51 votes for public option in the end so let the republicans dangle and
Edited on Tue Jun-30-09 04:23 PM by LaPera
hang themselves all the way until the final vote....show loud & clear who against health care for all (as well as what Dems) including a much needed public option....

51 votes will be a piece of cake when it's time...and now Franken's vote will help enormously.
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Better Believe It Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-30-09 04:31 PM
Response to Original message
10. Let's end the nonsense about fake Republican filibusters

Time to End the Filibuster By Making It Real
By Robert Schlesinger, Thomas Jefferson Street blog
U.S. News and World Report
March 2, 2009

Is it time to eliminate the filibuster? Definitely not. But David RePass, an emeritus professor of political science at the University of Connecticut, has an interesting suggestion in today's New York Times along those lines but distinctly short of it.

RePass bemoans the fact that the filibuster has given the senate's minority party a functional veto over legislation in that chamber by requiring at least 60 votes to pass something. But, he points out, real filibusters never actually happen these days: the modern "filibuster" is more threat than action.

Which is where RePass' solution comes in:

... fixing the problem would not require any change in Senate rules. The phantom filibuster could be done away with overnight by the Senate majority leader, Harry Reid. All he needs to do is call the minority's bluff by bringing a challenged measure to the floor and letting the debate begin.

In other words, don't get rid of the filibuster. Instead make it real: Force Republicans to actually get up and tie up Senate business and explain why they're doing it. If the GOP (or the Democrats, in time, when they are back in the minority), want to filibuster they should be able to—but they should have to actually do it.

http://www.usnews.com/blogs/robert-schlesinger/2009/03 /...

----------------------

The tyranny of the minority
By PETER FENN
March 19, 2009
Peter Fenn is founder of Fenn & King Communications, a Democratic political consulting firm. He worked on the Senate Intelligence Committee and was a top aide to then-Sen. Frank Church (D-Idaho).


President Barack Obama has it right — there is a lot to change about Washington. The problem is, not much will get changed unless we confront the runaway filibuster in the U.S. Senate.

I remember, as a Senate page in the 1960s, the great debates on civil rights that would go on night after night. The rows of uncomfortable beds rolled in made Army barracks look luxurious. As a new Senate staffer in 1975, I also remember the heated debate over the effort to change the vote on cloture from two-thirds to three-fifths, or 60 votes, to shut off debate. Most of us thought that was a good thing, changing the Senate’s Rule 22, which was adopted in 1917. We believed it would be easier to stop obstructionists from paralyzing the Senate.

Thirty years later, boy, were we wrong. I joke that you need 60 votes to rename a post office. The “phantom filibuster,” as University of Connecticut professor emeritus David RePass calls the mere threat of a filibuster, has tied the Senate in knots.

There are really three alternatives. The first is to confront the filibuster as it was intended: to demand continuous debate on an issue, causing a major confrontation with the minority. This would tie up the Senate and provoke a political standoff. The second is to invoke the so-called nuclear option and end the filibuster altogether. The third is to further lower the number of votes needed — say, to 55 instead of 60. This option still leaves the Senate with the problem of a continuous supermajority to pass legislation.

As long as one party or faction feels compelled to constantly require 60 votes to pass anything, the short-term option may be to call its bluff and bring in those lovely cots to sleep in just off the Senate floor. The lawmakers can all look like Jimmy Stewart in “Mr. Smith Goes to Washington.” Or they can look like obstructionists who are impeding real change for the nation.

Please read the complete article at:

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0309/20178.html

-----------------------------------

Op-Ed Contributor
Make My Filibuster
By DAVID E. RePASS
David E. RePass is an emeritus professor of political science at the University of Connecticut.
New York Times
March 1, 2009


PRESIDENT OBAMA has decided to spend his political capital now, pushing through an ambitious agenda of health care, education and energy reform. If the Democrats in the Senate want to help him accomplish his goals, they should work to eliminate one of the greatest threats facing effective governance — the phantom filibuster.

Most Americans think of the filibuster (if they think of it at all) through the lens of “Mr. Smith Goes to Washington” — a minority in the Senate deeply disagrees with a measure, takes to the floor and argues passionately round the clock to prevent it from passing. These filibusters are relatively rare because they take so much time and effort.

In recent years, however, the Senate has become so averse to the filibuster that if fewer than 60 senators support a controversial measure, it usually won’t come up for discussion at all. The mere threat of a filibuster has become a filibuster, a phantom filibuster. Instead of needing a sufficient number of dedicated senators to hold the floor for many days and nights, all it takes to block movement on a bill is for 41 senators to raise their little fingers in opposition.

The phantom filibuster is clearly unconstitutional. The founders required a supermajority in only five situations: veto overrides and votes on treaties, constitutional amendments, convictions of impeached officials and expulsions of members of the House or Senate. The Constitution certainly does not call for a supermajority before debate on any controversial measure can begin.

And fixing the problem would not require any change in Senate rules. The phantom filibuster could be done away with overnight by the Senate majority leader, Harry Reid. All he needs to do is call the minority’s bluff by bringing a challenged measure to the floor and letting the debate begin.

Some argue that this procedure would mire the Senate in one filibuster after another. But avoiding delay by not bringing measures to the floor makes no sense. For fear of not getting much done, almost nothing is done at all. And what does get done is so compromised and toothless to make it filibuster-proof that it fails to solve problems.

It also happens to make a great deal of political sense for the Democrats to force the Republicans to take the Senate floor and show voters that they oppose Mr. Obama’s initiatives. If the Republicans want to publicly block a popular president who is trying to resolve major problems, let them do it. And if the Republicans feel that the basic principles they believe in are worth standing up for, let them exercise their minority rights with an actual filibuster.

Please read the complete article at:

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/03/02/opinion/02RePass.html...
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aaaaaa5a Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-01-09 12:20 PM
Response to Reply #10
24. Bush didn't need 60 votes for the tax cuts! NT
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tavalon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-30-09 04:55 PM
Response to Original message
11. Shhhhh
The Democrats don't want that spread around! We need reasons to continue not to do the will of the people, you know!
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unblock Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-30-09 05:17 PM
Response to Original message
12. nonsense, we need at least 65 seats to get anything done
anything less than that and the republicans will always manage to find a way to bribe or coerce enough "democrats" to block or water down anything they care to.

unless and until democrats learn to air work out their differences internally and maintain party discipline on the votes that matter, republicans will always be able to pick off a good number of wayward democrats. the need for more than just a simple majority comes from the lack of party discipline for anything other than pure party matters such as committee assignments.

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Dr Fate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-30-09 05:37 PM
Response to Reply #12
17. Let's keep moving those goal posts! Easier than actually kicking a goal, at least.
Edited on Tue Jun-30-09 05:38 PM by Dr Fate
This is what I see our "leadership" doing- moving the goal posts.
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Better Believe It Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-30-09 06:44 PM
Response to Reply #12
19. Do I hear 80 seats? Is this an auction?
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Dr Fate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-01-09 11:44 AM
Response to Reply #19
22. While we are moving the goal posts-let's make that 80 "Far left, Liberal, Socialist" Senate seats.
Edited on Wed Jul-01-09 11:44 AM by Dr Fate
We need 80- no NINETY far left, socialist Senators if we want any popular, mainstream issues to pick up any steam.
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RUMMYisFROSTED Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-30-09 05:20 PM
Response to Original message
13. It's not the Republicans making the claim.
:think:
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Dr Fate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-30-09 05:26 PM
Response to Reply #13
14. Are you sure? ;)
;)
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Dr Fate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-30-09 05:28 PM
Response to Original message
15. LET THE EXCUSE-O-RAMA BEGIN!!!!! n/t
n/t
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aaaaaa5a Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-30-09 06:43 PM
Response to Original message
18. I would take 51 votes with a public option over 60 votes without it. NT
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Vinca Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-01-09 07:09 AM
Response to Original message
20. I think some of the half-Republican Dems can be convinced to vote
for cloture, even if they vote against the bill. That's something.
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GivePeaceAchance Donating Member (950 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-01-09 11:31 AM
Response to Original message
21. Shhh, I think Democrats may of just led them to believe that, What the GOP don't know won't hurt ...
Edited on Wed Jul-01-09 11:33 AM by GivePeaceAchance
them. Have to let them think they have the upper hand then they don't fight so hard. :)
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harun Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-01-09 12:17 PM
Response to Original message
23. Thank you for not drinking the kool-aid.
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Romulox Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-01-09 02:57 PM
Response to Original message
25. Senate rules can be changed on a simple majority vote. They are lying about this 60 vote business
The Senators have agreed amongst themselves to make the Senate even less democratic than before. La-di-fricken-da.
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johnaries Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-05-09 10:29 AM
Response to Reply #25
31. The so-called Nuclear Option. Remember, Repukes discussed this
and rejected it. The fact is that filibuster is too useful for both parties for either to actually remove it.

I wish it were true we only needed 51 votes. But it's not. We need 60. With Franken we now have 60 Dems. We need to get all Dems on board.
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MadHound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-01-09 02:59 PM
Response to Original message
26. No, what the Democrats really need to get things passed is a goddamned spine
Until they get that, it doesn't matter how many seats they have in the Senate, they're not going to pass anything that is truly liberal and progressive.
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kestrel91316 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-01-09 03:09 PM
Response to Original message
27. If the Repukes filibuster, which I guarantee you they will now do 100%
of the time, you indeed need 60 votes to end the filibuster. And there will always be at least one "Democrat" to cross over and help his/her best friends.
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Better Believe It Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-01-09 04:22 PM
Response to Reply #27
28. We'll get the 60 votes to end debate if Republicans are forced to actually filibuster
Don't worry about that.

Do you really think the Republicans will be permitted to filibuster for a month or perhaps even longer as they isolate themselves more and more from the American people who want universal healthcare with a public option?

If they wish to do that, let them! All filibusters have to end and the longer a real filibuster takes place the weaker the Republican party will get.

But Let's test that theory in practice for once and find out who is right!

OK?

Just don't say "oh we'll never get 60 votes to end debate". That's just what the Republicans and some Democrats want you to believe!

After a few days of a real filibuster, we would even hear some voices within Republican ranks joining most Democrats in suggesting that perhaps it was time for the Senate to get on with its business. All you need is 2 or 3 to break ranks, if that.

Once again:

Don't let anyone b.s. you by claiming 60 votes are needed to pass a healthcare bill without reconciliation because the Republicans might threaten, or heaven forbid, might engaged in an actual Senate floor filibuster against the bill.

Let them! How long do you think they will obstruct the Senate by filibustering against a public option favored by a big majority of the people. The longer they filibuster the more they isolate themselves as anti-healthcare obstructionists.

All filibusters end.

We don't need the Republicans and even most so-called "Blue Dog" Democratic Senators will have to oppose a Senate filibuster against healthcare with a strong public option.

We'll get the 60 votes to end Senate debate, have no fear of that, and than the Senate can vote to pass the bill with a simple majority.

And of course, we can always keep the so-called "nuclear option" in our back pocket ready to deploy if necessary to stop any filibuster dead in its tracks!

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Better Believe It Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-05-09 09:40 AM
Response to Original message
29. For weekend DU'ers
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johnaries Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-05-09 10:25 AM
Response to Original message
30. You need to have your information updated. You're thinking of Jimmy Stewart
and "Mr. Smith Goes to Washington". The rules are different now. And filibusters DON'T "always end". There are many pieces of legislature that were never brought to a vote because there weren't enough votes for cloture.

Like it or not, we need those 60 votes.
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jesus_of_suburbia Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-05-09 10:39 AM
Response to Original message
32. Thank you for reminding us of this.. I had forgotten that. No excuses now for at least a public
option.

Let the repukes filibuster.
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Silent3 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-05-09 11:06 AM
Response to Original message
33. Only 50 with Biden to break any tie votes. n/t
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