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Ken Burch (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Jun-29-09 10:00 PM Original message |
Must "representative" democracy be the only valid type? |
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cali (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Jun-29-09 10:07 PM Response to Original message |
1. the worst that can happen is freedom? I doubt that. |
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Ken Burch (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Jun-29-09 10:14 PM Response to Reply #1 |
5. I wasn't necessarily saying we need to abolish Congress |
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stevebreeze (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Jun-29-09 10:08 PM Response to Original message |
2. the problem is politicians represent those paying their paycheck mostly that means big money |
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cali (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Jun-29-09 10:18 PM Response to Reply #2 |
8. I think that's the most important thing |
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Ken Burch (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Jun-29-09 10:29 PM Response to Reply #8 |
10. We all envy you on that. |
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hughee99 (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Jun-29-09 10:12 PM Response to Original message |
3. In a country where the upper classes control |
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Ken Burch (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Jun-29-09 10:18 PM Response to Reply #3 |
7. Then we need to learn to use the new media forms even more to counterract that. |
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hughee99 (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Jun-29-09 10:30 PM Response to Reply #7 |
11. I agree... |
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Oregone (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Jun-29-09 10:13 PM Response to Original message |
4. More referendums! Yes! Lets ban gays from walking on the sidewalk while we are at it |
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Ken Burch (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Jun-29-09 10:17 PM Response to Reply #4 |
6. Leaving decisions in the hands of an elite hasn't protected gays. |
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Oregone (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Jun-29-09 10:25 PM Response to Reply #6 |
9. Recently it has, much more often then when the people have taken a crack at it. |
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Ken Burch (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Jun-30-09 11:16 AM Response to Reply #9 |
27. Then I'd agree that it should be wrong to take away someone's individual rights through referenda |
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cali (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Jun-29-09 10:36 PM Response to Reply #6 |
12. well, that's patently not true in CA- where the elites legalized marriage equality |
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Odin2005 (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Jun-29-09 11:23 PM Response to Reply #12 |
17. Hamilton to Jefferson: "Your people, sir, are a vicious beast". |
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killbotfactory (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Jun-30-09 12:34 AM Response to Reply #17 |
21. The real problem is that the state is allowed to rule over these matters to begin with. |
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Oregone (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Jun-30-09 08:23 AM Response to Reply #21 |
22. "People should be free to enter into any kind of consensual relationship they want" |
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killbotfactory (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Jun-30-09 01:32 PM Response to Reply #22 |
32. People should have the same protections regardless of whether they are married or not |
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killbotfactory (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Jun-30-09 12:29 AM Response to Reply #4 |
20. Democracy doesn't necessarily mean majority rule. |
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TreasonousBastard (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Jun-29-09 10:47 PM Response to Original message |
13. The French Revolution got rid of those elites, and... |
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Ken Burch (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Jun-30-09 10:58 AM Response to Reply #13 |
24. Well, actually, Cromwell aligned himself with a lot of aristocrats against the king |
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Hippo_Tron (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Jun-29-09 10:58 PM Response to Original message |
14. Weak institutions such as "community councils" tend to produce autocracy |
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Ken Burch (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Jun-29-09 11:20 PM Response to Reply #14 |
16. The community councils in China and Libya are weak because those countries are police states |
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Hippo_Tron (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Jun-29-09 11:31 PM Response to Reply #16 |
18. Ghaddafi and Mao governed under the premise that the people are represented... |
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Odin2005 (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Jun-29-09 11:20 PM Response to Original message |
15. You are making a lot of big assumptions, here. |
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Ken Burch (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Jun-30-09 11:19 AM Response to Reply #15 |
28. Would you agree |
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Odin2005 (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Jun-30-09 02:31 PM Response to Reply #28 |
38. I am for PR in the Senate, The House whold stay the same but would use instant runoff. |
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Ken Burch (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Jun-30-09 02:35 PM Response to Reply #38 |
39. Well, since each state has only two senators it'd need to be IRV for that |
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Odin2005 (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Jun-30-09 02:58 PM Response to Reply #39 |
47. Good point! |
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Ken Burch (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Jun-30-09 02:59 PM Response to Reply #47 |
48. Anyway, I apologize for having referenced it at all. |
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Odin2005 (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Jun-30-09 03:06 PM Response to Reply #48 |
49. No problem! |
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killbotfactory (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Jun-30-09 12:25 AM Response to Original message |
19. There are better solutions, the problem has always been dealing with those already in power |
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Donald Ian Rankin (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Jun-30-09 09:42 AM Response to Original message |
23. Representative democracy works far better than direct democracy. |
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scheming daemons (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Jun-30-09 11:10 AM Response to Original message |
25. With direct democracy, you end up with California |
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Ken Burch (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Jun-30-09 11:15 AM Response to Reply #25 |
26. Well, I was coupling the referenda thing with campaign spending limits |
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Hippo_Tron (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Jun-30-09 11:48 AM Response to Reply #26 |
29. I'm not sure you're correct about Vietnam |
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Ken Burch (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Jun-30-09 12:26 PM Response to Reply #29 |
30. Well, a referenda would've brought to the polls a large group of voters |
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Hippo_Tron (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Jun-30-09 01:57 PM Response to Reply #30 |
34. Well, the public re-elected him with 60% of the vote in 1972 |
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Ken Burch (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Jun-30-09 02:14 PM Response to Reply #34 |
35. In 1972, Nixon didn't run as the "keep the war going" candidate |
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Hippo_Tron (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Jun-30-09 02:24 PM Response to Reply #35 |
36. Not very, because Mao brought his forces into the Taiwan Strait before they could |
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Ken Burch (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Jun-30-09 02:27 PM Response to Reply #36 |
37. So, basically, they put their leashes back on and went straight home. |
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Hippo_Tron (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Jun-30-09 02:42 PM Response to Reply #37 |
41. It's kind of like they took the dog out of the cage and then put it on an invisible leash |
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Ken Burch (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Wed Jul-01-09 01:18 AM Response to Reply #41 |
51. The whole first paragraph of that post gives me the image |
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Odin2005 (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Jun-30-09 02:44 PM Response to Reply #36 |
43. Dulles was a fucking lunatic! |
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Ken Burch (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Jun-30-09 02:47 PM Response to Reply #43 |
44. A lunatic who represented pro-Nazi German corporations as a corporate lawyer. |
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Hippo_Tron (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Jun-30-09 02:48 PM Response to Reply #43 |
45. We are still living with the ramifications of the Dulles brothers' foreign policy |
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Odin2005 (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Jun-30-09 02:39 PM Response to Reply #30 |
40. Humphrey was in no way on the "extreme right". |
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Ken Burch (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Jun-30-09 02:44 PM Response to Reply #40 |
42. The forces that imposed Humphrey were on the party's extreme right |
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Odin2005 (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Jun-30-09 02:51 PM Response to Reply #42 |
46. You are confusing "Hawk" with "Extreme Right" |
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Ken Burch (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Jun-30-09 07:41 PM Response to Reply #46 |
50. It wasn't just liberal "hawks". It was the Southern delegations |
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HamdenRice (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Jun-30-09 12:40 PM Response to Original message |
31. The Honduran and Venezuelan situations point to the most difficult puzzle of constitutional theory |
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invictus (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Jun-30-09 01:41 PM Response to Original message |
33. America is a representative oligarchy, not a representative democracy. |
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smalll (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Wed Jul-01-09 02:48 AM Response to Original message |
52. Yeah! Or Soviets! ("Workers' Councils") -- |
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Ken Burch (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Wed Jul-01-09 08:11 PM Response to Reply #52 |
53. The Soviets didn't CAUSE Stalinism. And a conventional parliament couldn't have stopped it. |
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Odin2005 (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Wed Jul-01-09 11:25 PM Response to Reply #53 |
54. When utopian ideologues win a revolution totalitarianism is inevitable. |
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Ken Burch (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Wed Jul-01-09 11:33 PM Response to Reply #54 |
55. The Marxist-Leninists who took over in Russia always presented their ideology as NON-utopian |
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Odin2005 (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Wed Jul-01-09 11:42 PM Response to Reply #55 |
56. Read "The Open Society and It's Enemies" by Karl Popper. |
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Ken Burch (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jul-02-09 12:45 AM Response to Reply #56 |
58. I'm not a Marxist(although I do think Marx had some valid observations) |
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Odin2005 (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jul-02-09 08:15 AM Response to Reply #58 |
59. I agree. |
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BlooInBloo (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jul-02-09 12:13 AM Response to Original message |
57. "Democracy is the worst form of government except all the others that have been tried." |
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