Wow, Mousavi letter the citizens of Iran, Looks like this could really get ugly

[RollWithIt]

Reports coming off of the internets say Mousavi has been placed under house arrest along with his entire family. Former President Khatami also placed under house arrest. Here is the letter translated to English.

http://ow.ly/dWZ8

In the Name of God

Honorable people of Iran

The reported results of the 10th Iranians residential Election are appalling. The people who witnessed the mixture of votes in long lineups know who they have voted for and observe the wizardry of I.R.I.B (State run TV and Radio) and election officials. Now more than ever before they want to know how and by which officials this game plan has been designed. I object fully to the current procedures and obvious and abundant deviations from law on the day of election and alert people to not surrender to this dangerous plot. Dishonesty and corruption of officials as we have seen will only result in weakening the pillars of the Islamic Republic of Iran and empowers lies and dictatorships.

I am obliged, due to my religious and national duties, to expose this dangerous plot and to explain its devastating effects on the future of Iran. I am concerned that the continuation of the current situation will transform all key members of this regime into fabulists in confrontation with the nation and seriously jeopardize them in this world and the next.

I advise all officials to halt this agenda at once before it is too late, return to the rule of law and protect the nation’s vote and know that deviation from law renders them illegitimate. They are aware better than anyone else that this country has been through a grand Islamic revolution and the least message of this revolution is that our nation is alert and will oppose anyone who aims to seize the power against the law.

I use this chance to honor the emotions of the nation of Iran and remind them that Iran, this sacred being, belongs to them and not to the fraudulent. It is you who should stay alert. The traitors to the nation’s vote have no fear if this house of Persians burns in flames. We will continue with our green wave of rationality that is inspired by our religious learnings and our love for prophet Mohammad and will confront the rampage of lies that has appeared and marked the image of our nation. However we will not allow our movement to become blind one.

I thank every citizen who took part in spreading this green message by becoming a campaigner and all official and self organized campaigns, I insist that their presence is essential until we achieve results deserving of our country.

< verse from in Quran: Why not trust in God, who has shown us our ways. We are patient in face of what disturbs us. Our resilience is in god. >

Mir Hossein Mousavi

Letter in Farsi

[skooooo]

1. wow...i gotta feeling this ain't gonna go away. nt

[ClarkUSA]

2. Amazing letter. Ayatollah Khamenei and his thuggish son had better reconsider.

If they don't, they will regret it.

[ellisonz]

3. Sometimes it takes a revolution...

[IntravenousDemilo]

4. Oh jeez, is this going to end up in the Supreme Court? n/m

[chill_wind]

5. Conflicting reports about his house arrest--

WAPO published earlier today that a Senior official from his campaign said the report was false.

I'll try to find the link I posted earlier.

[chill_wind]

7. WAPO link:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/06/13/AR2009061300627.html

[Number23]

62. Thank you for posting that. I got cold chills after reading the OP

"Mousavi was not seen Saturday. In the afternoon, Ali Reza Adeli, a senior official in Mousavi's campaign, denied reports that his candidate was under house arrest."

Although this does not look particularly encouraging:

"In Tehran, Mousavi's whereabouts were unknown. Reporters on their way to a news conference by the former candidate were stopped by security personnel, who said the meeting had been canceled. Several journalists were beaten."

[Cha]

6. Rec'd~ There is such

a hollow pit in my stomach from reading this letter..I wish the best for all those under House Arrest and I hope their can be a resolution steeped in Justice.

[jeanpalmer]

8. The guy lost 2 to 1

What's he complaining about? What happened to the gracious concession, after you get your but kicked?

This looks a lot like the 1953 CIA plot that got rid of the elected Mossadegh. I wouldn't be surprised if the CIA is behind a lot of this disruption and misinformation. Certainly, all the stories about Moussavi winning look like propaganda. Definitely were way off the mark. That's how the CIA works, spread disinformation, try to undermine legitimate processes and the government. They call them "orange" revolutions, but they're nothing more than CIA ops designed to effect mob rule.

[Odin2005]

9. You are full of shit.

The rigging is blatant and obvious to anyone paying attention.

[jeanpalmer]

13. It's just wishful thinking

if you don't have the proof. Show the proof. That's just a wild ass allegation.

[WeDidIt]

17. PROOF

This is statistically IMPOSSIBLE:

[LittleBlue]

22. A graph is proof?

I'll ask again-- where is the proof?

[WeDidIt]

28. A graph of the reporting of results

The results never deviated from the standard all night.

They claim Ahmadinejad got the same results everywhere, including the cities where his popularity is low.

They claim he defeated Mousavi in Tibriz where Mousavi lives by that same margin.

Statistically, it's impossible.

[LittleBlue]

36. No, Nate Silver just debunked this graph

Look at the GD;P page and you'll see it. This is all garbage.

[WeDidIt]

40. Nate's debunking is fatally flawed

His "waves" are final results.

The above graft is reporting as the night wore on.

If Nate's waves are cantalopes, the waves in the above graphs would be asteroids.

[Teaser]

72. yeah, he just randomized the data alphabetically

that would generate his graph. But it's not reflective of the graph we're all debating.

[Teaser]

71. I know more statistics than Nate Silver ever will

He randomized his data. Of course Nate's graph would show the result it did.

However, the graph in question, the categories are not random. They should reflect very different activity, in the absense of homogenization via randomization. And they don't. Which is the point.

[Douglas Carpenter]

33. Imagine Barack Obama loosing the African-American vote to John McCain in Chicago

Hossein Mousavi, is an Azeri from Azerbaijan province. The reported results from Iran show Moussavi being trounced by Ahmadinejad among Azeri voters in Tabriz, the capital of Azerbaijan province. Azeri's almost always vote for one of their own even when the candidate has absolutely no chance of winning.

salon.com has a great article by Juan Cole on some real implausible results. Juan Cole's blog also raises some of the same questions.

Ahmadinejad reelected under cloud of fraud

By Juan Cole

http://www.salon.com/opinion/feature/2009/06/13/iran /

"Obama administration officials were privately casting doubt on the announced vote tallies. They pointed out that it was unlikely that Ahmadinejad had defeated his chief opponent, Mir-Hossein Moussavi, by a margin of 57 percent, in Moussavi's own home city of Tabriz. Nor is it plausible, as claimed, that Ahmadinejad won a majority of votes in the capital, Tehran, from which he hails. The final tally also gave only 320,000 votes to the other reformist candidate, Mehdi Karoubi, who had helped force Ahmadinejad into a runoff election when he ran in 2005. It seems odd that he get less than 1 percent of the votes in this round. Karoubi, an ethnic Lur from Iran's west, was even alleged to have done poorly in those provinces.

The final vote counts alleged for cities and provinces, even more so than the landslide claimed by the incumbent nationally, strongly suggest a last-minute and clumsy fraud. A carefully planned theft of the election would at least have conceded Tabriz to Moussavi and the rural western Iranian villages to Karoubi."


snip: "The primary challenger to incumbent Ahmadinejad, former Prime Minister Mir-Hossein Moussavi, was widely thought to have a number of crucial constituencies behind him. Urban youth and women, who had elected a reformist president in 1997 and 2001, showed enthusiasm for Moussavi. He also showed an ability to bring out big crowds in his native Azerbaijan, where a Turkic language, Azeri, is spoken rather than Persian. (Azeris constitute about a third of the Iranian population.) It was expected that if the turnout was large, that would help Moussavi.

But not only did Iran's Electoral Commission announce that Ahmadinejad had won almost two-thirds of the general vote, it also gave him big majorities in major cities such as Tehran and Tabriz (the latter is the capital of Azerbaijan). These results seemed unbelievable not only to Moussavi supporters but to many professional Iran observers."

http://www.salon.com/opinion/feature/2009/06/13/iran /

Saturday, June 13, 2009
Stealing the Iranian Election
by Juan Cole ]

Top Pieces of Evidence that the Iranian Presidential Election Was Stolen

1. It is claimed that Ahmadinejad won the city of Tabriz with 57%. His main opponent, Mir Hossein Mousavi, is an Azeri from Azerbaijan province, of which Tabriz is the capital. Mousavi, according to such polls as exist in Iran and widespread anecdotal evidence, did better in cities and is popular in Azerbaijan. Certainly, his rallies there were very well attended. So for an Azeri urban center to go so heavily for Ahmadinejad just makes no sense. In past elections, Azeris voted disproportionately for even minor presidential candidates who hailed from that province.

2. Ahmadinejad is claimed to have taken Tehran by over 50%. Again, he is not popular in the cities, even, as he claims, in the poor neighborhoods, in part because his policies have produced high inflation and high unemployment. That he should have won Tehran is so unlikely as to raise real questions about these numbers.

3. It is claimed that cleric Mehdi Karoubi, the other reformist candidate, received 320,000 votes, and that he did poorly in Iran's western provinces, even losing in Luristan. He is a Lur and is popular in the west, including in Kurdistan. Karoubi received 17 percent of the vote in the first round of presidential elections in 2005. While it is possible that his support has substantially declined since then, it is hard to believe that he would get less than one percent of the vote. Moreover, he should have at least done well in the west, which he did not.

link to full article:

http://juancole.com/2009/06/stealing-iranian-election.html

[jeanpalmer]

48. Al Gore lost Tennessee in 2000

John Edwards lost North Carolina in 2004 by 400,000 votes.

Like Ahmadinejad, Bush was a somewhat unpopular incumbent in 2004 and and still won.

[ShadowLiberal]

69. if the election wasn't rigged then why were the results certified sooner then the law allows?

If Ahmadinejad didn't steal the election then why the government commission in charge of counting the votes certify the results of the election several days sooner then Iranian law allows?

Iran law states you must wait 3 days after an election to certify the results, the reason it's this way is so that accusations of irregularities and fraud in areas can be addressed before the winner is officially declared. Ahmadinejad's government waited only 1 day to declare the results official.

See for yourself at this link. http://juancole.com/2009/06/stealing-iranian-election.html

Here's the exact quote about it.

6. The Electoral Commission is supposed to wait three days before certifying the results of the election, at which point they are to inform Khamenei of the results, and he signs off on the process. The three-day delay is intended to allow charges of irregularities to be adjudicated. In this case, Khamenei immediately approved the alleged results.

Obviously someone (Ahmadinejad) didn't want charges of those 'irregularities' to be addressed.

[Top Cat]

70. He stole the election and trouble is brewing. Innocent people will be hurt by this they have already

taken to the street according to the MSM.

[jeanpalmer]

79. The Electoral Commission is "supposed to wait

three days before certifying the results." Are they "required to" or "supposed to"? Big difference. And is it required by the law or not? And are there any exceptions, like when one candidate wins by a landslide? Cole is not exact on this, I thought he was sloppy.

Also, he notes that Karoubi had a noticeable dropoff from the election in 2005. Maybe people viewed him like Nader was viewed in 2008, as a wasted vote, and therefore did not waste a vote on him this time around. There are many explanations for the issues Cole raises. He just gives his theories, and admits that he is speculating and guessing.

I didn't find his article convincing. It was just speculation.

[johnaries]

75. EXACTLY! Ahmadiniejah won like Bush did - by FRAUD.

I am well aware of how the CIA has interfered in the Mid-East in the past. But I do not that is the case this time. I agree that the graph is meaningless, but there is other evidence of fraud.

[snake in the grass]

78. To which I say that that election was also rigged.

[Douglas Carpenter]

80. we are talking about deeply held Middle Eastern ethnic loyalties

Nothing of the sort resembles the same situation in Azerbaijan

Al Gore lost Tennessee because he ran afoul of both the gun lobby and the tobacco lobby. To compare the situation is beyond ludicrous. Claiming Ahmadinejad letimately trounced Mir Hossein Mousavi among Azeri voters in Mousavi's hometown is insulting to intelligence.
Do you really believe Juan Cole, Al Jazeera, and the whole world of staunch critics of American policy in the Middle east especially critics of American hostility toward Iran are all part of one big CIA conspiracy?

If you check my Journal you will see that at least 70% of my writing is about Middle Eastern affairs and you will see that I am no apologist or defender of American policy in the region. Advocating for fundamental changes in America's Middle East policy including opposing any and all hostilities toward Iran is an essential part of what I have been spending the last two years posting about on DU.

But if you check, you will find that even those Iranians and Iranian observers most critical of Western hegemony and American policy think this election was most likely stolen. The suggestion that the suspicion that the election was likely rigged is some sort of CIA planted disinformation story flies in the face reason and the facts and is discrediting to critics of America's imperial dominance in the region who do advocate for genuine change in American policy in the Middle East.

[quakerboy]

81. Wow

Really? Cause I remember Al Gore winning, and then the Supreme Court taking it away. I do not recall any win by Bush in 04 either. It was pretty clearly jiggered.

I suppose if you believe Bush really won both, then its no long stretch to outspokenly believe Amindi won in Iran. Myself, I have doubts.

How transparent is their system? Were there election watchers, and if there were what do they say? Unless there is some sort of verification and proof, then neither side has a lot of credibility, and it all comes down to who has the power to enforce their will. This seems like one of those situations where the public of the world will never know the truth, and whoever is standing in the end will be recorded the winner.

[goclark]

88. Exactly ~

:bounce:

[bertman]

101. quakerboy, the comment was that "Al Gore lost Tennessee". That was never disputed. Unlike

the fraud in Florida and elsewhere.

[northernlights]

84. um, yeah Bush "won"

ever hear about election fraud in Ohio? Florida? Remember the electronic voting machines with no paper trail. The one that the rethug head of IT admitted were deliberately skewed in his deposition...oh wait, the deposition that he missed after his plane crashed. :eyes:

Go back to freeperland, where you obvious belong.

[Douglas Carpenter]

89. from freeperland, definitely no!

I'm guessing some spin-off and highly ideological Trotskyist sect. But THAT is just speculation.

[CTLawGuy]

95. Al Gore lost Tennessee

because he hadn't lived there in 8 years at the time. During that time, it swung to the Republicans just like the rest of the South due to the influence of the religious right.

[tavalon]

97. If you think you are arguing that the vote wasn't rigged in any of your examples

and therefore the vote in Iran wasn't rigged, well, you picked some bad examples, especially the one where you said Bush won in 2004. Didn't happen. We just didn't erupt in violence, a testement to the sedate nature of Americans these days.

[4lbs]

91. Ok, how about using logic?

When was the last time you saw near record turnout of a populace, and an energized young base, all just to keep the status quo?

We had a similar thing back in November. A very large turnout, which included lots of young people getting excited for a candidate. Which candidate did they support? The "status-quo" McCain or the "new guy" Obama?

If the Iranian incumbent was so popular, as this supposed landslide implies, why were there so many that took to the streets AGAINST him and in support of his main rival?

[PM7nj]

10. I take it you're a fan of Imadinnerjacket?

It's so obvious the vote was rigged. They didn't even try to make the result seem reasonable.

[jeanpalmer]

16. Ahmadinejad is popular outside of Tehran

He has won big in the past. Why is this any surprise? To me, the fact that it was such a wipeout says it wasn't rigged. But if it was, show the proof.

[DLnyc]

38. If it wasn't, show the proof.

Your argument makes no sense. To understand what is going on in Iran, you would need to weigh a large number of ideas and facts. There is no single piece of "proof" that would settle things one way or the other. But your argument that Ahmadinejad won is, as far as you have told us, based on the (quite surprising) statements of the state-controlled media in an environment where internet and cell-phone communication have been cut off. So it is you who are lacking "proof", not those who are questioning the (quite unbelievable) results.

[grantcart]

11. Jean I would like us to take a moment and consider this business opportunity

Due to the budget difficulties in California the Governor has decided to privatise some of the key assets of the state.

In order to give everyone a fair opportunity a lottery was used to decide who the agent for selling the bridge would be and to my good fortune just last night I became the agent for the Golden Gate bridge.

Now this is an opportunity you do not want to go away.

For a small sum you can arrange to become the lease holder of the bridge and then you could charge tolls to regain your investment. You would be responsible for all leasehold improvements.

Call me Jean, call me now. Quickly.

[jeanpalmer]

19. Well, you probably think you own the bridge

But I'll let you in on something. I'd kick your ass on any deal involving finance.

[grantcart]

27. My dealing in finance is limited to corporation financing,

financing manufacturing inventory and buying forward dollars on the international market. So outside of those areas I am a complete novice.

On the other hand smelling bullshit from a dictator I am pretty good at and have met a few of them.

[jeanpalmer]

30. Read "Confessions of an Economic Hitman"

by John Perkins. He lays it all out, how the USA undermines foreign governments, assassinates leaders, spreads disinformation, to gain economic advantage. The USA has a track record of trying to overthrow Iran's government, and did it once using the same game plan it looks like is in place now. The point is, when there is an election outcome the US/CIA doesn't like, and there are riots, right away think "CIA" and "USA." You probably will be right.

[grantcart]

50. yeah or I can rely on my contacts from working with Iranian refugees over

the last 20 years.

[jefferson_dem]

49. But it looks like you would lose bigtime in any deal involving common sense.

Look around. Evidence abounds that suggests major election fraud. You may choose to ignore it if you like but don't expect others to be so stupid.

[jeanpalmer]

65. I see allegations

I don't see evidence. Learn to distinguish between the two.

[tavalon]

98. Don't they teach you irony over there?

We learn quickly over here how to use irony to smack down a terribly confused and yet stubborn poster. I just assumed the other place would teach that skill as well.

[LittleBlue]

23. All he asked for was proof. What an insulting and childish response.

But really, since you have no proof, it's probably to be expected.

[Aloha Spirit]

25. Lol

[grantcart]

29. quite a bit of proof is all over the internet and we have been posting it here regularly

1) the margin of Ahmadinejad's lead remained exactly the same regardless of whether or not they were counting rural or urban votes, and Iran is well known to divide its voting pattern by geography

2) the timing of the election results was highly suspect. Previously they took 12 hours to make an official announcement. Despite having to count by hand they had it all done in 2 hours.

3) NPR went to rural areas an interviewed Ahmadinejad supporters who admitted that in 2005 the area was carried nearly 100% but this time his support was more evenly divided.

4) The government is saying that Ahmadinejad is carrying Mousavi's home town in a landslide.

5) Knowledgeable observers are stating that the number of votes for Ahmadinejad's conservative opponent are laughable.

6) Despite real unemployment running 40% and heroin addiction reaching world record standards and a general feeling that restrictions with trade is crippling the economy, and there is a universal perception that Ahmadinejad has lost support, he had 4 million more votes in a four way race than he did in 2005 in a two way race.

7) Lack of ballots in Mousavi strongholds. Attempts to interupt communications and other election day irregularities.


But no we don't have video of him falsefying a single ballot.

[LittleBlue]

34. You're giving me circumstantial statistical data

I'm only asking for evidence of this election being the product of fraud and not the voters.

This sounds like the rationalizing of Bush's victory in 2004.

You need something more to prove fraud, like a video or some other direct evidence of fraud. And since you're claiming that at least 5 million ballots were miscounted, there should be ample evidence of such.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

90. Yeah! Where's the video proof!?!

:rofl:

[AsahinaKimi]

42. Ne!!! Don't you dare sell my bridge...

Its mine!!...there's one in Brooklyn you can have!!! :7
(Proud SF native)

[jenmito]

12. All those people in the streets were created by the CIA, too?

Please. With all the young people getting out and voting, keeping the polls open for several more hours, I seriously doubt that Mousavi got his butt kicked.

[LittleBlue]

24. 10 million people voted for him

You think thousands of protestors showing up is impossible for a guy with 10 million votes?

[jenmito]

32. I suppose you think all the young people in the voting lines were voting for

Ahmadinejad.

[LittleBlue]

35. What do you mean "all"? I said he got 10 million votes.

Ahmadinejad didn't need to capture all the youth to get a victory. It looks like the youth broke heavily for his opponent.

[jenmito]

43. I meant "most." If you believe he only got 10 million votes

I have a bridge to sell you in a place where a bridge does not exist.

[jeanpalmer]

26. Are you serious? That's SOP for the CIA

Cause riots, stir up trouble, try to get the people to overthrow the government. They've done this so many times they can do it in their sleep. And that's why this looks like your standard CIA special ops.

Which country is the geatest overthrower of governments in the world? Which country routinely assassinates foreign leaders? Answer: your own country. My god, it's so obvious. It's been reported the US has sent assassination squads into Iran. You think the CIA would hesitate to try to rig an election, or cause riots afterwards? Come on get real. You're talking about the USA.

[jenmito]

31. Yup. I'm serious.

I also have been reading your posts and see you don't have very much (if anything) good to say about Obama or his administration so I'm not surprised by your post here, either.

The young people went out to vote and then to contest the results. If you don't believe it, I'm not gonna try to change your mind.

[jeanpalmer]

37. And the way to contest results

when you lose an election is to riot? The fact that young people rioted doesn't mean an election was rigged. It could be they are lawless individuals who won't respect the results of an election. Like the young rioters in Seattle who tore that city apart a few years ago when the WTO met there. They were thugs.

There's a way to contest an election. Rioting is not it.

[rockymountaindem]

39. Where are they going to contest the election? Courts?

In Iran? Good one. Any theocratic government which could, theoretically, have falsified the count on such a massive scale is not going to allow its acts to be reversed in court.

[jeanpalmer]

44. The way the CIA works

is they spread disinformation before an election that it's close or, in this case. that the opposition is actually ahead. What is the guaranteed outcome then when the opposition loses by 30%? Well, of course they don't believe it, because they were told they were ahead. And naturally they riot, just like the CIA wants them to. The CIA hopes they'll overthrow the government. This has all the hallmarks of a CIA run operation. Another reason to suspect it's CIA: because it's not going to work and it's a fked up simple-minded operation like most of the stuff they do.

[rockymountaindem]

46. Can you point to another election that's supposedly gone down this way

that the CIA has influenced? You keep saying "this is how the CIA works" but *you* are the one who's not providing any evidence that is so. You're just making assertions on the assumption that we will either take you at face value or that we somehow know exactly what you're talking about. Furthermore, it's not just about pre-election polls. The results put out by the Iranian government fly in the face of reason. See: http://www.juancole.com/2009/06/stealing-iranian-election.html

[jenmito]

60. I notice s/he avoided this post.

I wonder why. :eyes:

[jenmito]

47. Protesting, taking to the streets, is not rioting.

Are you a Dem.? Just wondering after reading your posts.

[jefferson_dem]

51. I smell as much bullshit emanating from this poster as I do from the Iranian election returns.

Far too obvious.

[jenmito]

57. Yup. So do I. n/t

[JayMusgrove]

87. Me too, Jen, I think someone may need

a new hobby,

[jeanpalmer]

56. You mean to be a Dem

you have to come on here and claim an election was rigged without any proof?

From the standpoint of being an American instead of an ugly American, how about showing some respect for another country's election process, the outcome of which you don't happen to like, making wild claims without any proof.

No one has appointed you to be the definer of who is a Dem and who is not. You'd be the last person whose judgment I would trust on that one.

[jenmito]

58. I'd "be the last person whose judgment I would trust on that one"?

Do I KNOW you? I searched your posts and don't believe you're a Dem. for a second. Let me check your profile. Oh, wait... :eyes:

[jefferson_dem]

59. Proof is mounting as we speak.

Here are two links that have just surfaced within the past half hour or so:

http://www.newyorker.com/online/blogs/newsdesk/2009/06/laura-secor-irans-stolen-election.html

http://www.thedailybeast.com/blogs-and-stories/2009-06-13/an-absurd-outcome/full/

I find it curious that you are so quick to dismiss charges of fraud under a despotic authoritarian regime like Iran's but seemingly suggest the CIA routinely meddles in elections across the globe...without yourself providing a single shred of evidence.

[jeanpalmer]

64. I read unsupported allegations in those two articles

I didn't see any proof. I trust very little of what the MSM says about Iran. Certainly would not trust the Saban Center. The MSM deliberately misquoted Ahmadinejad on "wiping Israel off the map." And when they were confronted with the truth, they still kept repeating the lie. And this was up and down the MSM. So I don't trust any information the MSM puts out on Iran. I trust it about as much as I trusted Judith Miller on Iraq. Please don't drink their koolaid.

[jefferson_dem]

66. Ok.

Have fun.

[jeanpalmer]

67. That's what I was expecting

Nothing.

[northernlights]

85. you're the one making wild claims

Plenty of evidence has been posted here, with links to articles elsewhere, supporting the likelihood of election fraud.

Show one iota of *proof* that the CIA interfered with *this* election. *Proof.* Not past history. Proof.

[tavalon]

99. Sometimes it is

We took to the streets to protest both the stolen elections of Booshie but perhaps we needed to actually do an armed insurrection to get the message out. There are still too many who think Bush won fair and square - two times!

[a la izquierda]

102. I can assure you that the rioting/protesting

in Mexico after the disastrous 2006 was not caused by the CIA. And perhaps you should take a look at video from the Tehran riots--doesn't look like too many "lawless" individuals. And it's Iran, so I think you'd better really believe in the cause you're rioting about.

[PM7nj]

45. Ok, so here's a better question....

Why don't you want the Iranian government overthrown?

[jeanpalmer]

52. I really don't care what they do

But if they have an election and one side loses 2 to 1, and their solution to that is to riot and to try to overthrow the people who won the election, that would seem to contradict the principles of democracy that the US is nominally committed to and purportedly is trying spread throughout the world.

Beyond that though, the US should not become involved in the internal political affairs of other nations. Show the respect Obama just preached about in Cairo. And that would include respect for the outcomes of elections, unless it can be established that an election was fixed. In this case, that showing has not been made. It seems the first impulse of the US was to question the outcome, instead of offering qualified respect.

[tavalon]

100. Set up a profile

If you really want to stay here, you should do that. Otherwise it's one more reason for us to think you might be an interloper from that other site.

[girl gone mad]

55. But what proof do you have aside from a book that you read?

What does the CIA gain? What does the US gain? Neo-cons certainly would prefer Ahmadinejad. For all we know the CIA is planting rumors that the CIA is backing Mousavi in an attempted coup. Really, you need to make a better case.

[jeanpalmer]

61. I don't need to make a case

The US has shown time after time it is willing to intervene in the internal political affairs of other countries, through force or otherwise, to achieve a desired outcome. The case has been made many times. In fact, it happened in Iran in 1953. Case closed.

In this particular case, the US had a huge incentive to intervene. In fact, you can say that aside from North Korea, there's no other government where the US has a bigger incentive to intervene. To get rid of Ahmadinejad and put in place someone more pliant is a big incentive. It would offer the possibility of solving many problems -- resistance in Iraq, the nuclear issue, resistance by Hamas and Hezbollah. That's plenty of incentive. In fact, now that I think about it that way, I'd bet almost anything the US was involved in that election, in one form or another.

[Hippo_Tron]

96. It was SOP in the 1950's when nobody had seen it before

It worked great in Operation PBSUCCESS and Operation Ajax. After that, other countries started to realize what was going on and the probability of success became much lower. Their antics worked in Chile I suppose but that was a military coup rather than a popular one and Pinochet had the entire military apparatus behind him.

If the CIA were orchestrating a coup there would be a Shah-esque figure ready to be installed. Rafsanjani, Moussavi, and Khatami are all still revolutionaries even if they are more moderate than Ahmadinejad and they would not be American stooges. Out of the three Rafsanjani would be their best bet, but there's little chance he could retain the support of the masses.

[starroute]

68. Sometimes knowing a small truth can blind you to a larger truth

Yes, the color revolutions have regularly been stage-managed by the CIA -- or more often by groups like the International Republican Institute acting as surrogates for the CIA. And there is no doubt that those groups have been funding dubious Iranian "dissidents" and offering them trainings in the Gulf States for a number of years.

But if it was possible to gin up a color revolution in Iran the way they do in the Balkans or the 'stans, it would have happened years ago. The MO isn't even the same -- the color revolutions have tended to start by undermining and discrediting the existing regime, slowly building a power base. What's happening in Iran tonight is a sudden eruption of outrage. It doesn't look the same, feel the same, or smell the same as the others.

But believing that it *must* be the same blinds you to an obvious charlatan like Ahmadinejad and to the heavy-handed tactics of the ayatollahs. (Declaring a victory long before the count could have been completed and pulling cellphone and social networking access in anticipation.) As multiple people have pointed out, if Ahmadinejad was popular enough to win a landslide victory, there would have been dancing in the streets. There would be no need for this kind of preemptive repression.

So please, try to forget about what you *know* to be true and think a little more deeply about what is in front of you.

[rockymountaindem]

74. Perfect reply

This poster can't see the forest for the trees.

[jeanpalmer]

77. I never said it was identical

Don't know where you got that at. There are myriad ways to accomplish it. And the CIA doesn't have to act by itself. As you point out, there are a number of organizations, some of them funded by the Congress, that work to undermine foreign governments.

You seem to be relying on what amounts to anonymous "reporting" from Iran on the net. Do you know who these "reporters" are? Do you know their motives? Of course you don't. You're making big leaps of faith with regard to who these "reporters" really are and what they're reporting. Also, many of the "facts" being reported are contradictory.

With regard to people's dancing in the streets if MA won in a landslide, that doesn't necessarily follow. I can see where the opposition might still riot, even if they lost fairly in a landslide. In fact, they might have planned riots ahead of time, if they knew they were going to lose. I'll wait til more facts come out before deciding what really happened. Meanwhile, nothing would surprise me. This election was important not only for Iran, but also for Israel, the MIC, and oil interests. Probably the most important event in the ME since the invasion of Iraq. There was a lot at stake for a lot of people.

[quakerboy]

82. I would suggest

That waiting for the facts is a good idea. The problem is that the ideal waiting for the facts often translates to doing nothing and never getting the facts. And that Pursuing the facts with interest is a far more usefully course.

I would also suggest that this post is somewhat disingenuous of you. In it you state you are waiting for the facts. But through the rest of the thread you have made it clear that you believe that the election is done and the state has announced a winner, and he won a landslide. You have allowed no doubt to go unchallenged in this regard.

[Name removed]

73. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[JeffR]

76. Everything you've said about the CIA is incontestably true.

Everything else you've said is incontestably ridiculous. Show your work. Just how did you arrive at your take on this? And I'd be shocked if it weren't simply post hoc, ergo propter hoc. So please cough up.

[gauguin57]

86. 2 to 1. Yeah, right. And George W. Bush won in 2000. And the Easter Bunny is real.

Give me a break.

[pulsatilla]

94. I understand what you are saying, but I am more convinced

that the rigged aspect would be to keep Akmadejad (sp.!) in power, rather than install the new dude. It reminds me of bogeyman Hussein; keeping the current leader would be more CIA-ish, IMO.

[peacebird]

14. Mousavi was popular in cities, but what about in rural areas?

[Baikonour]

15. The only way the people can take back Iran is by overthrowing the "supreme leader."

Sorry, but in 2009, no country in this world should have a "supreme leader."

[BlooInBloo]

18. Wow. He really brought game.

[GoesTo11]

20. If they had a real revolution

and ran a sword through Khameni and riddled Khatami with bullets and hung Ahmadinijad by the neck, the whole mullah crowd would seem a lot less intimidating.

[Rosa Luxemburg]

21. We don't need to get involves with Iran

there are other problems which surpass these little ME countries. One is China.

[Aloha Spirit]

41. a report on Tehran, from tehranbureau.com.... says it feels like martial law

"from Iran sent 2:43 AM Tehran-time (6:13 EST)

Here the internet is horrible. After much trouble, I was able t log on through a proxy. I’ll try my best to get the news to you. I have news right now that in Shahrake Gharb is absolute chaos. People are in the streets, they’re chanting. No sign of police. Their protest continues at this hour. I also hear that Niavaran is a big chaotic too — at least until an hour ago. I’m sorry my information is fragmented. I’m afraid I’ll get disconnected. In Niavaran people are shouting from their homes. That way when police comes they quickly retreat; so they haven’t been able to arrest anyone. I’ve also heard that people captured a few of the Basij guys and gave him a beating. It feels like Martial Law here. Cell phones are down, internet lines are horrible, Facebook is filtered, and … I also have news from Ahvaz. They have also announced there that if someone comes out of their house they will be arrested. So keep your fingers crossed and pray for us. Tomorrow is a great day. I gave you the news. Please try to publish it. Thx.”

[jefferson_dem]

53. Wow.

The CIA has set up camp at tehranbureau - http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=8469499&mesg_id=8469757

Seriously, this is very disturbing. Hang tough, stay strong, Iranian brothers and sisters. Looks like it's going to get worse before it gets better.

[Aloha Spirit]

54. That's the comic relief in DU's otherwise sober discussion of this tragedy.

I think what's the most heavy is.. the world waiting to hear the whole story.
How many people died, how many in prison.
I fully expect Iranians to find ways around the censorship to report this story to the world.

[benld74]

63. Governments of the people, by the people, for the people are perishng in our lifetimes

I NEVER in my wildest dreams would have believed it if I had not read what has occurred. I have always believed that people without their governments are the same all over the world. It is governments and their special interests, however they are put up and supported, are the reasons for all the problems man faces today.

[quakerboy]

83. If you are determined to win an election at any cost

It is much safer to do it here in the US, where at worst you will have to raise a "legal defense fund".

[Bullet1987]

92. Is this letter real?

[rvablue]

93. I was thinking the same thing. I'm not going to click on that link, but it would be interesting

to know the providence of this letter.

Just because something is posted on the internet doesn't mean it's legit.

I think it's pretty obvious there is something not right going on since the government seems to be blacking out the press/internet/cell phones.