Educate me? Why is most of the navy....white?

[Jackeens]

Just watching the 2009 graduates being announced and meeting the President. There have been a few women, but only two or three African Americans so far...and hundreds of white guys! :shrug: Why is that, I genuinely haven't a clue?

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

1. It matches the uniforms?

:shrug:

[Jackeens]

2. LOL......O.....kay!

[kestrel91316]

3. That's not "the Navy". That's the NAVAL ACADEMY ot Annapolis.

It's very difficult and competetive to get into our nation's military academies. AND you have to receive an appointment - so they are handpicked, meaning the applicants have to have some sort of connections, IMHO.

I don't imagine the average kid from an urban black or hispanic community has the top-notch HS education and everything else it takes to get in. It's like getting into a top university - not for the less-than-singleminded.

Just sayin'.

ETA the Navy's enlisted ranks and even officers who DIDN'T go to Annapolis are probably MUCH more ethnically diverse.

[rockymountaindem]

7. You don't need a connection to get an appointment to an academy

Plenty of people without them still get in. All you have to do is contact a Congressperson or Senator's office and request the proper paperwork. If you look good on paper, you can get an interview. Lots of people get in that way. Alternatively, however, people whose parents were in the military, particularly if they were academy graduates, do get preference because they have experience with the military officer lifestyle (for instance, moving all the time when they were kids) and are seen as being better prepared for a long career. So in that sense, there are legacy admissions in the military.

[Captain Hilts]

11. Most people don't know this and it is a huge hurdle for some people to get over to apply.

Knowledge of how the game works is not all that widespread, especially in economically-challenged communities.

[CTyankee]

35. My late uncle got into West Point because my grandmother, knowing she had a very smart

son but also knowing that there was no money for college (it was in the depths of the Depression), wrote to her Congressman for the application/process. He graduated just in time for WWII. He was a math whiz and upon retirement from the Army he taught high school math. He was a lovely man. He hated the military life and was a lifelong liberal and an atheist. He gave me a copy of Jefferson's Bible many years ago, which I still treasure.

[flpoljunkie]

43. How neat! Thanks for sharing.

[TahitiNut]

23. Be aware ... admission to the Coast Guard Academy is 100% competitive examination - NOT appointments

Yes, admission to the Naval Academy at Annapolis, the Military Academy at West Point, and the Air Farce Academy at Colorado Springs are largely by appointment, with a HIGHLY variable set of criteria depending upon the person with appointment privileges, but admission to the Coast Guard Academy is based upon two days of competitive examinations. Every year, examinations are held all over the U.S. and many places overseas. One must meet certain academic and reference requirements in order to qualify for the examination.

I took the examination in 1960 for admission in 1961. I was told that over 25,000 people toook the examinations that year ... from which 250 were admitted. I was 12th.

SOME of the appointments to the other academies are based on competitive exams ... or SAT scores. Each Congressman and other Office-holder has latitude in determining the manner of qualification for THEIR appointees. The Academies each set minimum standards for admission, so merely getting an appointment doesn't guarantee admission.

[SoxFan]

42. The Coast Guard Academy does it the right way

Admission to West Point, Annapolis, Colorado Springs, and King's Point should be strictly on the merits, and the congressional nomination system should be phased out.

[elleng]

54. I think this is not entirely correct.

'Candidates for admission must both apply directly to the academy and receive a nomination, usually from a congressman.'

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Military_Academy

Additionally,

'While the volume of applications to the U.S. Military Academy is on the rise, the number of qualified contenders to choose from is shrinking . . .

The youth in America are becoming heavier and heavier and, in some cases, obese," said Col. Deborah McDonald, West Point's director of admissions.

Her office has received more than 11,000 applications for the Class of 2013. That's 10 percent more than last year. Still, McDonald has concerns about filling the ranks. Last year, fewer than 2,000 met West Point's standards. "I do see a problem," she said, considering West Point will extend offers to as many as 1,600 applicants.

West Point's student body of about 4,400 cadets balances a high-pressure mix of academic and military training. Cadets pursue bachelor's degrees on par with those of the Ivy League while training for five-year commitments as Army officers. Tuition — worth about $202,000 over four years — is free in exchange for service.

In tough economic times, it's not unusual for West Point to garner more interest, but to increase its presence among America's best and brightest, the Academy is implementing a host of changes to make its grueling, 18-month application process easier to complete.'

http://www.recordonline.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20090226/NEWS/902260341/-1/NEWS66

[Captain Hilts]

12. The high school drop out rate for male Hispanic students is close to 50%. nt

[kestrel91316]

27. Probably at least that high for black males, at least in urban areas.....

Sad.

[Captain Hilts]

28. Yes, I know it's high, I don't know how high or why it is so, but it is. nt

[Occam Bandage]

50. You don't need any connections. nt

[LiberalFighter]

4. They have less of a pool to draw from?

[RC]

5. Are the Officers mess crew still mostly filipinos?

[Captain Hilts]

9. No. Filipinos are in all ratings now. I think you mean 'steward'. Mess crews were all races.

Filipinos dominated the steward rating for decades. That was changed in the '60s and they have been branching out ever since.

I just met one who is a retired aviation mechanic. In the Philippines, competition is tough to get in the USN.

[Thothmes]

29. Stewards rating discontinued twenty years ago

[SKKY]

58. There isn't a "law" per se, but yes, the number is still disporportionate...

..I don't know the numbers, but most Filipinos appear to be spread throughout the SK, DK, PS, and CS rates.

[Captain Hilts]

6. A lot of reasons. Some valid, others not. Hispanics are under-represented because of

language barriers. This is the case in all the services and is why the army is thinking of starting a high school that will focus on kids - many,many Latino - who drop out of school.

Now, the Navy does not yet have as many officers of color as it should have. HOWEVER, some very high spots have been held by black officers. Let me introduce you to Adm Bruce Grooms:



He's one of THE most popular officers in the USN. He's been a sub captain, commandant of the Naval Academy and you need to keep an eye on his career.

I do not understand why the SEAL team is so white.

Here's a recent speech by the CNO addressing this issue:

Monday May 18, 2009


CNO: Future Navy needs more minority admirals
By Philip Ewing - Staff writer Navy Times | Friday September 26, 2008
By Philip Ewing - Staff writer
Posted : Tuesday Sep 23, 2008 9:28:42 EDT

The Navy’s top admiral has set “benchmarks” for the percentage of nonwhite admirals he’d like to see in the service within 30 years, according to a set of internal Navy messages that appeared Thursday on the Internet. The messages direct subordinates to use the guidelines in considering which officers to recommend for promotion.

Chief of Naval Operations Adm. Gary Roughead has set goals for an admiralty in 2037 that is 36 percent nonwhite — specifically, 10 percent black, 13 percent Asian or Pacific Islander and 13 percent Hispanic, according to an e-mail to admirals dated Feb. 27. The message was signed by Vice Adm. John Harvey, who was then chief of naval personnel. Harvey has since become director of the Navy Staff.

Capt. Jack Hanzlik, spokesman for Chief of Naval Personnel Vice Adm. Mark Ferguson, said the benchmarks were unofficial and emphasized they are not quotas. They reflect projected trends for those groups in the U.S. population, Hanzlik said, with the idea that the makeup of the Navy’s officer corps should mirror American society.

Commanders should keep those percentages in mind as their nonwhite subordinates make career decisions, Harvey wrote, in keeping with the Navy’s larger goals of increasing diversity in the mostly white officer corps. The message tells admirals that they should know their nonwhite commanders and captains by name; asks what the recipients are doing to help the nonwhite O-5s and O-6s get promoted; and what their commands are doing overall to help promote the nonwhite officers.

A conservative Navy blogger, who posts under the name “cdr salamander,” obtained Harvey’s e-mail and posted it Thursday. Also posted was an e-mail from the office of Navy Installations Command, directing captains to pass up the names of O-5s and O-6s in a “must promote” or “early promote” status and note which ones were “diverse.”

[Karenina]

20. "I do not understand why the SEAL team is so white."

I DO.

[Captain Hilts]

22. It attracts the same demographic as the Marines. I know members of both and

the Marines have a significant percentage of people of color, though I know the tests to get into the SEAL team are much tougher because you are also required to master a language.

[zipplewrath]

8. Complex answer

The societal nature to answer that question is complicated. Hitting the high points.

Just to get into the military acadamies, someone has to put that thought in your head, and probably somewhat young. That means parents and teachers have to start moving you in that direction early. I was shocked when I was of college age to see how teachers and counselors personal biases influenced who got "invited" to meet with certain recruiters.

It takes academic AND atheletic achievement at the high school level to have a good chance. Far too many people, of all races, tend to skip one of those two.

It takes a nomination from a congress critter to even be considered. Each critter has a certain quota, and it's more than one or two, but you do have to know how, and have some rough connections to submit a good application.

People of "poorer" means might as well consider enlisting for the college benefits. Military acadamies are generally for folks thinking of making a career out of it. This is made worse by those who might start, but then leave in their sophomore year to help out with families struggling to economic demands.

None of those factors by themselves should cause serious skewing of the attendance. However, collectively it could cause some diversion from the general population distribution.

[Captain Hilts]

10. Poorer kids get to the academies through the 'fleet appointment', like my dad did as a sailor.

You enlist as enlisted rather than officer and you take a test to get to the academy.

THIS would be the BEST way to integrate more officers of color into the academy. They should also look to kids of CPOs of color, such as David Robinson was.

[Sequoia]

13. Contacts.

You have to be recommened by political people in your state and have very high grades mostly. My nephew went through this process and should be going in about a year or so.

[qazplm]

14. not to defend the military

but when it comes to racial integration at all levels, while it still has a long way to go to be truly equal, I think it fairly clear that it has outstripped society at large until very recently as far as minorities making it to top spots (obviously a black President helps even that out some). From GEN Powell to Senior Enlisted in several branches, we've had a lot of senior minority leaders at all levels and branches.

Women obviously still have a way to go and certainly the gay/lesbian issue is a huge problem, but I think racially the military has done fairly well in comparison to society as a whole.

[Captain Hilts]

15. The military has done FAR better than the civilian world on race. nt

[TahitiNut]

16. About 6.5% Black. USNA Graduating Class Demographics ...

Student Graduation Demographics

How many students graduated at United States Naval Academy?
Men Women Total
Non Resident Alien 10 1 11
Black Non-Hispanic 62 8 70
Hispanic 63 15 78
Asian / Pacific Islander 40 8 48
American Indian / Alaskan Native 9 3 12
White Non-Hispanic 775 152 927
Race Unknown N/A N/A N/A
Total 959 187 1,146

http://www.stateuniversity.com/universities/MD/United_States_Naval_Academy.html

[Captain Hilts]

19. You know, Tahiti, looking at the names of the recent USNA quarterbacks tells you something.

A lot of Pacific Islanders.

[TahitiNut]

24. Annapolis, West Point, and Colorado Springs all have athletic recruiting.

They each have active Alumni Associations involved in recruiting athletes and 'shepherding' them through an appointment process.

When I was at the Coast Guard academy (1961-63) the football coach was Otto Graham. (Yes, THAT Otto Graham.) He built an undefeated team WITHOUT having an athletic recruiting program. Since admission to the USCGA was and is 100% competitive examination, all that a 'recruiter' could do is encourage an athlete to take the examination. Most 'star' athletes have 'full ride' offers from state and private colleges and universities ... a better deal than other students. At an academy, however, everyone is on a 'full ride' ... as long as they cut the mustard. (Athletics isn't 'mustard' and there's no curriculum latitude - no 'easy' courses for athletes.)

[Captain Hilts]

21. I'm wondering when we'll start seeing officers with South Asian/Indian/Pakistani last names.

I know there are a few in the sub force. And I know we're now seeing Asian sub captains.

[Jackeens]

17. Thanks everyone for the replies, I'm now educated!

[Captain Hilts]

18. Keep your eye on Adm Grooms, he's goin' places! nt

[RaleighNCDUer]

25. I think it is largely because most navy guys come from the upper midwest.

When you grow up a thousand miles from the nearest ocean, it looks more romantic to you. And in Iowa and North Dakota and Nebraska and such, African Americans are less than 5% of the population.

[Captain Hilts]

26. If you live in Kansas and want to get out of Kansas, you join the navy because if you join the Army-

You might be stationed at Ft. Shit, Kansas, back at home.

The Navy has always, always been where folks went to get away or get a fresh start for that reason.

That's a good point I forgot to mention.

My dad's first FOUR sub skippers were all from Tenn.

[Dark]

30. Duh. It's filled with seamen. What did you expect?

nt

[TankLV]

47. What's long and hard and filled with seamen?

[old mark]

31. The Navy has been extremely racist in the past - Blacks worked

in the kitchen (galley) or in service jobs.Hispanics were in food service or worked as orderlies for high rankers. Jews were not wanted in the Navy till recent decades. The service acadamies are to some degree clubs - there are many 3rd generation service acadamy graduates, and they tend to "help" each other along the path to high rank and good paying positions after their service life is over.

mark

[Thothmes]

45. BS.

At the begining of the Civil War, American warships sailed with black sailors, while the Army did not even enlist them. There was not two pay scales in the navy, one for white sailors, and one for black sailors. Sailors were paid the same for the skill level the earned. A black Able bodied seaman was paid the same as a white able bodied seaman. A black captain of the tops was paid the same as a white captain of the tops. Not so in our army. A white private, corporal or sergeant was paid more then a black man holding the same rank. Even at the begining of WWII. black sailor could be found in a lot of rating other than as stewards. The were rated as machines mates, water tenders, DC men, etc. Yes the majority of served as ships service men or stewards but in fact the could work in other ratings This was not the case in our army

[HamdenRice]

55. It's not BS. You went back too far in history.

You are correct that the Navy wasn't always racist. In part, that's because our navy got its start in piracy. Since "our" navy before 1776 was the British navy, after declaring independence, we didn't have a navy, so we commissioned pirates ("privateers") to prey on British shipping. That was our navy. Pirates were quite egalitarian.

Even the British navy had used freed slaves and Africans. Various navies were indeed quite integrated. There were African communities on the coast of West Africa that had a seafaring tradition, and they joined various navies (the Kru of Liberia and the related Fante of Ghana).

And you are correct that during the civil war there were black sailors, but no black soldiers until Lincoln allowed Massachusetts 54th Volunteer Infantry, and then tens of thousands more black troops.

But from the late 19th until the mid 20th century, the services "flipped" in terms of their acceptance of black soldiers and sailors. In the late 1800s, the Army continued to rely on black buffalo soldiers, while the navy became segregated to the point that there were few black fighting men.

The reason was the practicalities of segregation. It was possible to have all black infantry units. It was not possible to have all black ships. Hence job segregation in the navy intensified, while the army was able to maintain separate units and even promote black officers.

[Karenina]

57. I have on my old hard drive an account

of a black Navy Seal. There is a post on this thread that explains, "WHO NEEDS THIS SHIT?" I inculcated my sons with the idea that they had other options and educated them about the role of the MIC in our world. "What has it done for ANYONE lately? What is it doing NOW???" My father, who served, did the same with me. And it's 1, 2, 3, what are we FIGHTING FOR??? :shrug:

[HamdenRice]

59. It's amazing that the predominant answer on this thread is basically, "they're too stupid ...

to be in the Naval Academy" -- ghetto illiteracy and all that.

But most Black Americans are aware of the stigma of the Navy and the self-(de)selection when it comes to recruitment into the Navy.

And I say that as someone with two cousins who made semi careers in the Navy. I remember the night back in the 70s when my father (332nd Fighter Group ground forces, WWII) argued with my cousin about why he should not go into the Navy because of how racist it was.

"Who needs this shit," indeed.

[Karenina]

61. Or, THEY can't swim!!!

I grew up in Annapolis. Was a cheerleader for an Army vs.Navy game in jr-hi. That's why when I saw "regatta" on the SATs I knew what it was. ;-) Most thought it was a dance. Close but no cigar. Miss Gibson remarked in a pique, "Now HOW THE HELL are WE supposed to know that? We're from Hollis, not The Hamptons!"

[HamdenRice]

32. Each service has a racial reputation based on history. The Navy is considered the most racist.

Things have changed but the reputations each service established before desegregation remains in the African American community. Many Black people write off the Navy because historically it was the most racist of the services. Alone among the services, it kept African Americans out of almost all positions except kitchen work until quite late.

These reputations affect recruitment, so I would say contrary to what most respondents wrote in this thread, I would argue that there is a lot of self selection (or deselection) that goes into the Navy being more "white."

Of the services, the Air Force is considered the most racially equal. That's because when it was part of the Army, it created the 332nd Fighter Group (the Tuskeegee Airmen) and had African Americans fighting as officers in a very high profile and successful position.

Traditionally, the Army has been the service of choice for African Americans. The Army had high ranking "Colored" officers going back to the World War I era, most notably, Benjamin O. Davis, Sr., (incidentally, the father of Gen. Benjamin Davis, Jr., commanding officer of the 332nd). And of course, African Americans have served in a fighting capacity in the Army in the Spanish American War (under Teddy Roosevelt along side his Rough Riders), in the Indian Wars (Buffalo Soldiers), in the Civil War and the Revolutionary War.

The same cannot be said for the Navy, and people of color tend to still avoid it.

[AspenRose]

60. That's what I was taught at home

And probably why my dad went Army and uncles went Air Force.

[Thrill]

33. They mostly go in the Army and Marines

.

[Unsane]

34. That's the US Naval Acadamy. You know that right?

[ecstatic]

37. True, but the Navy in general is less diverse than the Army

Far fewer women and minorities.

[sl8]

38. True for officers, but not enlisted.

Enlisted female:
Army - 13.42%, Navy - 14.65%, Marines - 6.34%, Air Force - 19.97%

Enlisted white:
Army - 68.16%, Navy - 62.05%, Marines - 76.20%, Air Force - 71.68%

Officer female:
Army - 16.69%, Navy - 15.10%, Marines - 5.78%, Air Force - 18.01%

Officer white:
Army - 75.47%, Navy - 82.76%, Marines - 82.75%, Air Force - 81.81%

http://www.defenselink.mil/prhome/poprep2007/contents/contents.html

[rug]

36. I saw at least two black guys.

And one Indian.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=InBXu-iY7cw#

[Liquorice]

40. LOL nt

[Thrill]

39. Obama noted the diversity of the graduating class, which is more than 20%minority and 20% women

The president also noted the diversity of the graduating class, which is more than 20 percent minority and 20 percent female, and whose members come from "every state and every corner of the world."

[leftofthedial]

41. I dunno

ask Jimmy the Greek.

[Thothmes]

44. He is dead

[Kaleva]

46. matter of choice for some reason

and it might be self perpetuating. Blacks may feel more comfortable joining a service where there is a high percentage of blacks already rather then enlist in the Navy and where they would stand out.

[Yavin4]

48. Think Class More Than Race

African Americans and Hispanics are predominantely working class people. Those African Americans and Hispanics who are middle to upper middle class have far more academic options. In fact, middle to upper middle class African American and Hispanics probably eschew the military altogether.

The key to real progress in this country is to look at issues more on a class basis instead of a race basis. By attacking and correcting class imbalances, you will correct racial imbalance in the process.

[firedupdem]

49. Very good point.

Most of my family and friends pushed education and never considered the military. But I never really knew too many military people, so it may be that it's just something that wouldn't have crossed my mind anyway. Something to think about.

[uponit7771]

52. The "eschewing" is from lack of diversity, which is the chicken, and the egg

...being young upper middle class blacks staying away from something they don't feel welcomed to.

As an upper middle class black parent there is NO DOUBT WHATSOEVER in my mind that kids and adults respond better to environments that allow them to fit in. Very few minority kids or adults these days feel as if they have to racially pioneer in fields of profession any longer.

When you see your culture sorely underrepresented in an area like such as the officer ranks of the Marine corp or at schools like Annapolis then that SCREAMS out loud that you'll be pioneering.

Yes, there will be plenty of young minority men and women wanting to be president or sec of state or golfers instead of rap artist and running backs.

[dsc]

51. There are several reasons most of which have been addressed here

but one that hasn't been is the fact that Congressional districts have become so polarized. Huge numbers of Congressional districts are virtually entirely white meaning that huge numbers of the Congressional appointments are going to go to whites. Merit selection would be very helpful.

[uponit7771]

53. +1

[windbreeze]

56. getting into the Navy is not that easy...

I tried...my favorite uncle was a Lt.Commander...he'd worked his way up from an enlisted man...sooooo....I checked on what it required...good grades...a certain weight..passing tests, and taking a physical...I was 18, in damned good shape, a little heavy, so I lost every pound I needed to lose...and passed the written entrance exams with an average 98 percent....took the physical, passed it all, except one part, the last part...my eyes...were NOT good enough...My eyes, of all things, kept me out of the Navy...not correctable to 20/50 with glasses...the closest I could get was 20/57....and that WAS BELOW their standards...however...IF I wanted....the Army would take me...I told the recruiter, no thanks...I wouldn't be standing here, IF I'd wanted to be in the Army...and that's not even the Academy...that's just the regular Navy...my mother was going to write to our Congressman and get me in that way...the recruiter told me, I'd just get to Bethesda, and they'd send me home when they took another eye exam...so I told her to never mind....wb