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NanceGreggs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-14-09 08:38 PM
Original message
The Wisdom of Solomon
After reading the many opinions posted today, here and elsewhere, about the release/non-release of photographs evidencing torture, I find myself longing to live in the black-and-white world that is seemingly inhabited by many – that place where every issue is a matter of being one-hundred-percent right or wrong, devoid of any shade of gray, where doing the right thing is obvious, and consequences need never be considered.

Unfortunately (or fortunately, depending on how one sees these things), I dwell in the real world, where little is as cut-and-dry as one would hope; where shadows tend to intrude on sunny scenarios, blurring the lines between light and dark, prompting inconvenient things like doubt, and a necessity to weigh and measure actions against the reactions they may cause.

I have seen opinions delivered as absolutes: Everyone already knows what we did, complete transparency means no exceptions, the pursuit of justice should never be weighed against the consequences of said pursuit – let the chips fall where they may.

I have also seen logic tortured into becoming complete nonsense: Supressing photographs of torture is tantamount to condoning it, considering the consequences of their widespread release is just an excuse to protect the guilty – and the truly astounding concept that any opinion expressed against releasing these photos is equivalent to declaring that “everything Bush did is okay with you.”

In truth, saying that “everyone already knows what we did” is the assertion of a fact not in evidence. Undoubtedly there are those who know what was done. But there are also those who do not know the true nature of it, nor the extent of it. To say that “everybody knows” the details of what went on is like saying everybody knows that the re-election of G.W. Bush to a second term was fraught with voting irregularities, when we ALL know that many people – regardless of access to the information readily available from various sources – actually know no such thing.

And of course the belief that everybody already knows begs the question: If everybody DOES already know, why is it necessary to reiterate what is already known?

Most fair-minded, justice-seeking people would argue that “transparency” should never be qualified nor negotiated – and yet those same people would never debate that rape-shield laws, where a lack of transparency (i.e. the withholding of names and certain information) is deemed not merely acceptable, but necessary in recognition of the greater good.

I have seen the opinion expressed that withholding these photographs from the public view is simply a matter of trading the public’s right-to-know in exchange for a little bit of security. One wonders if those whose loved ones are currently in the Middle East would consider the possible backlash of violence against their children a matter of “a little bit” of security.

All of this is to say one thing, and it is my opinion only: On this particular issue of the release of these photographs, we should all accept that this is a case – if ever there was one – of being able to respectfully agree to disagree.

There IS no absolute answer here. For every valid argument there is to withhold these photos from public view, there is an equally valid argument for releasing them. There are consequences to either decision, and what those consequences might be are, at this point, a matter of speculation at best.

Let’s remember that the Biblical tale of Solomon, real or imagined, was told in hindsight, and in light of an innocent babe being returned to its loving, rightful mother. Would we have heard this story, and revered it as a sign of incredible insight into true justice being served, had the child been cut in half, its bloody remains delivered equally to both claimants?

Of course not.

Where do I personally stand on this issue? At present, I stand on both sides. I understand the need to acknowledge the guilt of what was done in our country’s name. I also appreciate the necessity of weighing and measuring the impact of the possible aftermath on innocents who may be targeted as representative of our government’s transgressions, and those who might be prompted to violence in retaliation for our many sins – a violence that may end in their own destruction and death.

That may be perceived by some as sitting on the fence. I perceive it as an acknowledgment that I am not privy to all of the facts that surround this issue and, as a result, my position on that fence is not a matter of indifference, but a result of having to defer to those who know more than I do.

I wish I had the Wisdom of Solomon, the legendary elder of old who knew that things would end as they should, who knew, without hesitation or second-guessing, that justice would triumph in the end and the consequences thereof would be heralded for centuries as a shining example of having done the right thing, concluding in a suitably happy ending for all concerned.

It’s comforting to imagine this movie fading to black – but those pesky shades of gray, whether you like them, accept them, acknowledge them, or ignore them – are still there, clouding the screen as the credits roll.

I do not purport to have the Wisdom of Solomon. Neither does Barack Obama. And neither, in my humble opinion, should any one of you.

To speak in absolutes – this is what WILL happen, this is what the consequences WILL be, this is what WILL ensue in the aftermath – is arrogantly ignorant at best and, at its worst, a foolhardy foray into an uncertain future that may lead to consequences no one wants to live with in the decades to come.

Whether I personally agree with President Obama’s ultimate stance on this issue is neither here nor there. I knew going into his election, and my support thereof, that he would do things I agreed with, as well as things I disagreed with strongly. And that wasn’t prescience; it was simply common sense. The only person I will ever agree with one hundred percent of the time is myself – and last time I looked, I was not elected to the highest office in the land.

For the past eight years, many of us have railed against the “cowboy mentality” of Bush and his supporters – those who felt that acting first and considering the consequences of those actions after-the-fact was the way to run a nation.

I, for one, am grateful that we now have a President who considers all options, who listens to all arguments, who thinks ahead – and ultimately acts accordingly. And while I may disagree with his final decisions, I am confident that those decisions are the result of having assessed information that undoubtedly weighs heavily on the heart and mind.

There is something to be said for the idea – nay, the ideal – that reasonable people can disagree without dismissing the concerns of those who take a different view, that two well-meaning individuals, given the same set of known facts, can come to completely different conclusions as to the best course of action on a go-forward basis.

I am not advocating taking one position or another. What I am advocating is the respect we should be showing one another in the face of a complex question that – despite the extremists on both sides who know everything – truly has no simple answer.






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grantcart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-14-09 08:42 PM
Response to Original message
1. exactly and perfectly stated

I for one am relieved that the President of the United States, while not perfect, will be giving all serious questions serious consideration and doing with the best interest of the country in mind without subjecting the process to an emotional, religious or defective psychological matrix. A few months ago most of us would have considered this a huge improvement not only over the current administration but over most of the previous administrations in our nation's history.
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CaliforniaPeggy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-14-09 08:43 PM
Response to Original message
2. Well said, my dear Nance...
Of that there can be no doubt.

It is black and white!

I humbly thank you...

K&R

:patriot:
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Occam Bandage Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-14-09 08:45 PM
Response to Original message
3. I completely agree.
This is an issue neither suited to conclusion-jumping nor to rhetorical bombast.
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Political Tiger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-14-09 08:47 PM
Response to Original message
4. Thank you Nance for YOUR wisdom!
I couldn't agree more!

K & R!
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Laelth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-14-09 08:49 PM
Response to Original message
5. Not much of a rant.
But very well said, nonetheless.

:dem:

-Laelth
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Cha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-14-09 08:50 PM
Response to Original message
6. Thank you, Nance..good to
have you weigh in on this.

I'm thinking it's good to have the hue and cry of those who want the photos released NOW and for President Obama to be the one in charge who's behind scenes knowing that he wants to keep them back for now for all the reasons he thinks are vital.
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NYC_SKP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-14-09 09:02 PM
Response to Original message
7. We all want justice.
We should recognize that we simply disagree on the details in getting there.

Thank you for this articulate and thoughtful OP.

Recommended.
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Cha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-14-09 09:36 PM
Response to Reply #7
12. Exactly~And I think
we're all needed. I just don't like it when there's Prez Obama=bush rageons.
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NYC_SKP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-14-09 09:43 PM
Response to Reply #12
15. Right...
It was quaint at first, a minor annoyance.

Now it's becoming a drumbeat and beyond tiresome.
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Cha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-14-09 10:03 PM
Response to Reply #15
19. Also, against the
rulz:)
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mkultra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-15-09 10:33 AM
Response to Reply #19
44. but not policed. which is the problem
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Cha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-15-09 12:09 PM
Response to Reply #44
49. I hear ya, but, I've alerted
on a couple and they got removed, so it can happen.

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madamesilverspurs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-14-09 09:18 PM
Response to Original message
8. Better and more kindly said
than many of the comments on the subject.

There was a startled moment when the news broke, the reversal suggesting a clumsiness very uncharacteristic of Obama. Oddly, I wondered if Obama had stopped himself from committing a "Sam Yorty" moment...
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berni_mccoy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-14-09 09:21 PM
Response to Original message
9. K&R Nance! Well said.
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Creideiki Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-14-09 09:30 PM
Response to Original message
10. More like, "The Wisdom of Cain"
"Cain, where is your brother Abel?"

"I don't know. Am I my brother's keeper?"

Oddly enough, I don't think there's a closet at the entrance of the White House with a sign saying, "Please check your morals at the door."
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NanceGreggs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-14-09 09:39 PM
Response to Reply #10
14. Nor is there is a sign saying ...
... "Please ignore any possible consequences of your decisions."

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mkultra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-15-09 10:34 AM
Response to Reply #10
45. words are cheap
you are clearly one who has never had others rely on your choices.
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Creideiki Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-15-09 12:10 PM
Response to Reply #45
50. Nope. Never.
Are you on freaking drugs?
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mkultra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-16-09 12:21 PM
Response to Reply #50
58. no, i have none to sell you either so keep looking.
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glowing Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-14-09 09:31 PM
Response to Original message
11. I was disgusted and mortified by the first round of photos... AND then
there are the one's they held back. I cannot believe that they are more benign than the one's that were allowed to be released. I believe these may contain the photos of women and perhaps children being tortured.. raped.. Maybe it shows generals or contractors.

No matter what, the truth has to come out. What happened once the concentration camps in Germany were rescued... they marched the towns people into the camps and showed them their horror. Its not pretty, torture is not.... I'm sure many parents would rather teach their children about blow jobs rather than tell them that we failed our nation and allowed torture to happen in our name. I know in the long history of America its not like we are angels in our imperialism. But to think Bush was (s)elected, and he did have to convince enough people to sway the (s)election, on some moral authority and compassionate Christian mantra.... and then to lead the way in war and destruction and torture. Disgusting.

Anyway, face the music. Show the pictures. Let the chips fall as may.
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Wednesdays Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-14-09 09:37 PM
Response to Original message
13. K&R
:kick:
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Bjorn Against Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-14-09 09:49 PM
Response to Original message
16. With all due respect Nance we have been considering this issue for literally years now.
This is not a new issue that just cropped up yesterday, we have known these photos existed since at least 2004 and many of us have been pushing for their release for over five years now. Up until yesterday it seemed that virtually all of DU would have supported the release of the photos, but then as soon as Obama went back on his promise all of a sudden people seem to be changing their positions for the sole reason that he changed his position. I know that I certainly didn't hear any complaints on this site when Obama said he was going to release the photos, now it may be possible that there were some people who were concerned but just didn't speak out about their concerns although I am willing to bet that at least half the people on this site who oppose the release of the photos today supported their release up until yesterday.

We have considered this issue very thoroughly, and just because we are firm on our stance that does not make us extremists. I think we can both agree on who the real extremists are, the extremists are the people who support torture. These people have been trying to convince Americans that their acts of torture are not only noble but necessary to protect this country, and sadly enough many Americans have fallen for their disgusting rationalizations. Because so many Americans have bought into their lies, it is imperative that we expose those lies and show people the true reality of the crimes that were being committed. We need to make sure that these sorts of atrocities never happen again, and if we have a sizable chunk of Americans who actually believe that torture is not such a bad thing it will happen again. These photos need to be seen, I have been calling for their release for over five years and I am not going to change my position just because Obama changed his.
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NanceGreggs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-14-09 10:43 PM
Response to Reply #16
20. I never suggested that those ...
... "firm in their stance" are extremists.

The extremists on both sides of this issue (i.e. to release the photos or not) are those who attempt to support their position by claiming to know that no harmful consequences will result, or know that the fallout will be lastingly detrimental.

Both outcomes are possible - and to accept that one outcome is a known quantity at this point is pure speculation.

Let the chips fall where they may sounds great on paper - until in unleashes world-wide retribution that results in an escalation of violence and death.

Let's keep this under wraps looks viable on the drawing board, but may, in reality, be more detrimental than letting everything out in the open, once and for all.

All I am saying is that there are two arguments to be made on this issue, and both arguments have validity.

Sometimes holding on to one's beliefs does not necessitate totally dismissing contrary opinions as being completely without merit.


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Bjorn Against Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-14-09 11:23 PM
Response to Reply #20
23. I don't see anyone saying they know exactly what the consequences will be
Edited on Thu May-14-09 11:37 PM by Bjorn Against
While I can acknowledge that releasing the photos could incite anger and possibly even violence, continuing the cover up of what happened is likely to incite even more anger and violence. There will be no perfect outcome no matter what is done, but to cover up the atrocities that were committed by our government is wrong. We need openness, transparency, and accountability in our government and when they tell us that they can't show us the truth because we can't handle that truth we should be extremely wary.

I don't dismiss all contrary opinions as being without merit, I do however feel that there are some positions that are without merit. We can probably both agree for example that the Bush Administration's arguments about torture are completely without merit as they have continually lied and committed grave crimes against humanity. Of course the Obama Administration has far more credibility than the Bush Administration had, but that does not mean that they are correct on all issues. What bothers me is that there are a good number of people on this site who seem to agree with Obama no matter what he says or does, and they will change their positions the moment he changes his position. A couple of days ago virtually everyone here would have supported the release of these photos, but now that Obama changed his mind they have changed their mind. I think that it is not only without merit for a person to base their own positions off those of a politician, but it is dangerous. There has never been a President who has been right all the time, and even our greatest Presidents have been dead wrong on certain issues. Unquestioning loyalty to any leader is a bad thing, and it greatly disturbs me to see so many people on DU who seem to always hold Obama's position and will change their position at the exact moment that he changes his. I can see some merit in the genuine concern about the potential violence that could be unleashed as a result of the anger from people seeing these photos, but I can see absolutely no merit in the position of those who base their stance purely on blind loyalty to a politician.
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NanceGreggs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-14-09 11:49 PM
Response to Reply #23
25. I don't think there is any argument ...
... that BushCo's side of this particular story is without merit.

But I must say this:

The fact that some people change previously-held positions when the president changes HIS position is not, in and of itself, evidence that they are blindly following his lead.

You might consider the fact that the president is privy to information that the average citizen is not and, as a result, may alter his stance based on same - causing others to reassess their thinking in acknowledgment of that fact.

Like everything else in this world, things are not always as black-and-white as they appear to be ...
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Forkboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-15-09 04:06 AM
Response to Reply #25
33. This "privy" point raises some questions in my mind.
I asked someone else, but he's always too chicken to answer, something I know I don't have to fear from you (they're not even hard questions really, just the result of 40+ sleepless hours lol).

You might consider the fact that the president is privy to information that the average citizen is not and, as a result, may alter his stance based on same - causing others to reassess their thinking in acknowledgment of that fact.

Ok, the first question that pops into my head is, if Obama being privy to info that we aren't causes him to change his mind it's understandable, but what causes those others without access to that info to reassess theirs if not a simple belief in Obama? It has to be just faith that he is right, as they have no way of knowing what info swayed him one way or the other. I think for many here, myself included, faith and politicians simply don't go hand in hand. It IS blind faith unless we're privy to the same information.

This leads to question #2: If being privy to info that the citizens aren't privy to is enough reason to believe/trust a president on such critical matters, why did we not buy that when Bush was in charge? I certainly think we can all agree that Obama is a far more trustworthy guy than Bush was, but is that the only reason we give Obama leeway when we use this reason for him? Any leader can say that they are privy to things we aren't, and they'd be right. When do we decide which ones to believe or not, and is just a matter of the letter in front of their name? I suppose the simple answer to that last one is a "yes", but that seems frightfully black and white and simplistic to me. In the end, I see this train of thought of being privy to things as a great way to do pretty much anything. Kind of a "father knows best" mentality...only father doesn't always know what's best, despite their good intentions.

And lastly, is this way too much of a philosophical tangent, or what? :rofl:
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mkultra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-15-09 10:44 AM
Response to Reply #33
47. i changed my stance so ill answer this
when bush was doing it, i wanted the pictures released because i felt that outrage was the only way he would stop the torture. To me, stopping these activities or, in a more current case, showing that the halting was appropriate weighed more importantly.

Now, they have stopped and we begin the march forward to discuss what we will do about these past actions. When Obama announced that he would not release them he said that they would to greatly inflame anti-american sentiment world wide. Since his role in the global theater should be to repair and rebuild our relationships, especially in the middle east, i was swayed to agree with him.

Full transparent honesty of crimes past is ideologically moral and sound but people do not respect honesty in the same way. Its better that this depth of honesty be avoided for a more sound move toward global peace.
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ImOnlySleeping Donating Member (131 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-15-09 07:00 AM
Response to Reply #23
35. Another thing
Another thing to consider is that Iraqis already have good reason to assume the worst about torture (rather than the Americans that want to believe the best). A large number of citizens were jailed and released, and word gets around. Your troops have been there long enough that Iraqis should have made up their mind as to whether they have been beneficial or detrimental. Also, if the pictures are released, I'd recommend having the decency to release them to the Iraqis first. They don't deserve second hand news.
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bluescribbler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-15-09 09:50 AM
Response to Reply #16
41. Is it possible?
"Up until yesterday it seemed that virtually all of DU would have supported the release of the photos, but then as soon as Obama went back on his promise all of a sudden people seem to be changing their positions for the sole reason that he changed his position. "

Is it possible that there are some people who changed their position, not because President Obama changed his, but because they heard his reasoning, and thought that his reasons might be valid? Is it possible that President Obama was able, through the force of his logic and his argument, to persuade some people that the pictures do not need to be released at this time?

I'm just asking.
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Bjorn Against Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-15-09 10:45 AM
Response to Reply #41
48. Maybe, but the thing is that Obama's arguments had been used before by others
I have been following this story for years and Obama did not say anything I had not heard said before, it is of course possible that others had not heard those arguments if they had not been following the story closely but it is not as if these were brand new arguments that had not already been made by many others.
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Rosa Luxemburg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-14-09 09:53 PM
Response to Original message
17. Menawhile Bush and Cheney are getting off the hook
The GOP are using this Obama photos/Pelosi for all their worth
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TheKentuckian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-14-09 09:53 PM
Response to Original message
18. As usual....
K&R

:kick:

Maybe you're not Solomon but I believe he'd greatly appreciate the way you think.
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nolabear Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-14-09 11:05 PM
Response to Original message
21. You're one thing that keeps me here.
I appreciate the people here for your passion and for the fervor in your liberal thinking, but I think it's a complete folly to believe we are privy to the whole story as the governmental wheels turn. I can imagine so many possibilities, but whether I fundamentally trust Obama, with a healthy dose of scepticism and as much information and thought as I can muster, is up to me and me alone. I could argue any of the positions held here, that transparency equals telling the American people everything they might want to hear regardless of whether they are aware of the potential consequences or not, that keeping in place any policy that He Who Shall Not Be Named had is tantamount to reliving the HWSNBN years in toto, etc., but I have been given every reason to trust that Obama is doing what he does as part of a pragmatic approach that will result in many, and not all, of the things we hope will come of this new administration. He seems like a man with integrity. I hope I'm right.

YOU I appreciate for agreeing with me! LOL! But then isn't that the way we all are?
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Uzybone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-14-09 11:09 PM
Response to Original message
22. Nazi
great post...
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JimGinPA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-14-09 11:32 PM
Response to Original message
24. Absolutely.
K&R
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JeffR Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-14-09 11:59 PM
Response to Original message
26. K & R
:hug:

I couldn't have said it better. Really, I couldn't. Very few could.

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ClusterFreak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-15-09 12:26 AM
Response to Original message
27. Thank you for saying this.
Edited on Fri May-15-09 12:33 AM by ClusterFreak
I only wish more people were as fair-minded. I find it shocking, truly shocking, how quickly so many here have been willing to spew vitriol at President Obama because he hasn't acted in absolute, unyielding accordance with 100 percent of their their wishes 100 percent of the time since January 20th. All the "this isn't the kind of change I voted for" posts have been, quite frankly, disgusting and depressing.

And then there are our fearless leaders in the progressive MSM....Olbermann & Maddow for instance. It's almost like listening to the Bizarro world version of Falwell's Moral Majority...with the too unctuous assistance of Jonathan Turley...his constipated grimace and plaintive, lecturing tone.

It's late and I'm tired....I'm not saying things as well as I would like, but I hope I'm making some sense here...

:)
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Divine Discontent Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-15-09 01:03 AM
Response to Original message
28. I thank the good Lord for rational reading that comes in the form of a Nance journal entry
you say this nicely, I posted a poll earlier where I accept my upset, earlier reaction, may be wildly inaccurate, and there are always things we do not know, that cannot be taken into consideration when we do not know them! (now I sound like Rummy saying the WMD are north, south, east and west of Tikrit!)

Anyhow, good job.

:hug:
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BlueMTexpat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-15-09 01:33 AM
Response to Original message
29. I see the grays here too and am sincerely glad that Obama is the one
making the hard decisions, rather than McCain.

But the bottom line is that all those from the top down, of whatever political party, who authorized and/or participated in torture must be thoroughly, meaningfully and effectively prosecuted.

If that means that the photos are not released for a while ... or ever, then so be it.

If these criminals are not prosecuted and punished, however, our international credibility will remain in tatters. And it will seem as if we are trying to sweep things under the carpet. That in itself will also bring about reprisals against innocents.
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vaberella Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-15-09 01:34 AM
Response to Original message
30. *Hi-Five* NG. Plus it seems like the usual suspects who support the pres.
In the real world there is a lot bloody well going on. I may not like the pictures aren't released but this President hasn't lied to me yet and has been extremely transparent (even if withholding the pics). I have no reason to doubt he's not looking out for the best interests and that he's extremely genuine in his belief.
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SeattleGirl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-15-09 03:26 AM
Original message
Thank you for your thoughtful words, Nance.
Like you, I can see both sides, which isn't often a popular stance for some people around here.

I would love nothing more than to see Bush, Cheney, et al stand before the court at The Hague and have to answer, under oath, for what they have done.

Would the release of the pictures bring that about? I don't know.

I do know that I'm not going to rend my garments and run screaming down the street in support of one side or the other, because I am NOT the POTUS, and thus, I do not have all the information he does, or even all the information that Congress does.

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SeattleGirl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-15-09 03:26 AM
Response to Original message
31. Oops. Delete. Dupe.
Edited on Fri May-15-09 03:27 AM by SeattleGirl
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DU GrovelBot  Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-15-09 03:26 AM
Response to Original message
32. ## PLEASE DONATE TO DEMOCRATIC UNDERGROUND! ##



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emanymton Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-15-09 04:19 AM
Response to Original message
34. Bad New Does Not Get Better With Age
.

Learned a long time ago while serving in Viet Nam. General Creighton Williams Abrams said as he was taking over the war as Commanding Officer, 'Bad New Does Not Get Better With Age.'

There is only one absolute, everything else is a shade of gray. When in doubt, follow the law. As a people of the land of laws, there is no other option. It is the law. The photos, information and facts will all come out, the people of USA are strong enough to face what was done in the people's name.

The law will eventually lead justice.

Release the photos.

Full and open investigations; no pardons, no amnesty, no immunity.

~@:o?
.
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cooolandrew Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-15-09 07:19 AM
Response to Original message
36. Exactly we can't afford to be as absolute as the other side or we'll lose the middle as they did >
Edited on Fri May-15-09 07:21 AM by cooolandrew
on the other side. Some may disagree but also recognize there are external factors to his decision. Let alone this maybe decided by supreme cout all the same.
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Dollface Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-15-09 07:24 AM
Response to Original message
37. Amen. These are crime scene photos. I don't have to see the pictures of any other crime to make me
want to seek just punishment for the perpetrator. However, like many, I also sometimes think we need to let the people who think torture is a good idea see just what it is they are in favor of.

Thanks again Nance for clarifying the argument.
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Blue Meany Donating Member (986 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-15-09 07:41 AM
Response to Original message
38. I think there is a big difference between supressing photos
to cover up what happened and suppressing them when we already know what happened. At some point it just becomes torture porn. I do think Congressional committees should have access to them, however.
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LittleGirl Donating Member (377 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-15-09 08:28 AM
Response to Original message
39. I agree and don't discount
that Obama may release these photos or give a description of the photos...but not in our time frame. We have to trust his judgment and not stomp our feet and say, but we want it now! He is privy to information that is top secret that we are not. I want to trust that decision with that possibility of reason.
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sinkingfeeling Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-15-09 08:50 AM
Response to Original message
40. While I agree that nobody can know what the release of those photos might cause, I still feel
releasing them could help the average US citizen understand what has happened in their name and might cause a real awakening toward the US empire.
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AspenRose Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-15-09 10:11 AM
Response to Original message
42. This is the essence of wisdom
"I do not purport to have the Wisdom of Solomon. Neither does Barack Obama. And neither, in my humble opinion, should any one of you."

:thumbsup:
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mkultra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-15-09 10:31 AM
Response to Original message
43. agreed. Its a balance. My judgment stands with the block.
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scheming daemons Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-15-09 10:34 AM
Response to Original message
46. Nance... you may not know it... but you are a NATIONAL treasure....

....
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mojowork_n Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-15-09 12:17 PM
Response to Original message
51. Superbly put
And I thank you for giving ME some more time to try to figure it all out.

In making a conscious, deliberate, thoughtful effort to tip the balance scale in one direction or the other (of course it's not all black-OR-white/us-vs-them), the only way I can see clear to understanding the wisest choice is....

...put the discussion into context.

It's an issue of justice.

Crimes were commited.

Torture is wrong, but so is terrorism, or whatever name you want to give to the very public demolitions all over the planet that have frightened and angered and hurt and killed so many.

Backing off on the zoom lens to the widest possible Big Picture, I think it comes down to the level of credibility or faith we have in the whole "terrorist threat to America" concept. I very nearly wrote "canard" instead of "concept" right there, because it was so grossly misused for so long by so many of the worst among us, but there are some pretty nasty people out there who clearly don't want the "American Vision" to come out on top or prevail.

Maybe it wouldn't take rocket science to figure out the reality of that threat, to lead us towards an appropriate, coherent, and balanced course of action. (Maybe there's a spreadsheet out there, or some other accounting mechanism that keeps track of actual events, persons, and historical facts. Some tool to provide a clear-eyed way to tote up the score on the historical record, and all the pluses and minuses, on both sides of the balance sheet.)

In the end, all the weighty decisions that need to be made about global consequences and America's interests will probably sort themselves out according to the same fault line that's created such a chasm between blue-staters (most of us) and red-staters (all those shoot-first, my-country-right-or-wrong peckerwoods). Is the U.S. a society of W.I.T.T.'s ("We're In This Together") or Y.0.Y.O's ("You're On Your Own") A guy named Jared Bernstein, I think, wrote the book defining those terms. His book was mostly about basic economic issues dividing republicans and democrats, but to apply it to a bigger world view -- the "American Vision" and what it means for us and for the rest of the world -- the question pretty soon becomes, do Americans really need to care what foreigners think?
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-15-09 01:02 PM
Response to Original message
52. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
NanceGreggs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-15-09 01:26 PM
Response to Reply #52
53. The only people I have referred to here ...
... as being "extremists" are those who are supporting their position on this issue (the release/non-release of photos) by claiming to know exactly what the consequences will be. If that shoe fits, feel free to wear it.

As for "just another Obamaist condescending talking point", etc. - well, you've made your stance clear.

I wonder if you've ever even considered the fact that some people like the job Obama is doing, trust his judgment, and are willing to say so.

Yes, that's the shocker: not everyone is willing to defer to what you consider to be your vastly superior judgment.

Go figure ... :shrug:




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Boomerang Diddle Donating Member (566 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-15-09 01:36 PM
Response to Original message
54. K & R!
:kick:
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Joe Chi Minh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-15-09 05:00 PM
Response to Original message
55. Bravely-spoken, Nancy. Rare integrity.
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puebloknot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-15-09 10:32 PM
Response to Original message
56. Once upon a time, a man named Siddharta, who had been protected ...
Edited on Fri May-15-09 10:36 PM by puebloknot
Edited for typos (being an editor, and such like)!

... from negative images and the suffering of his fellow beings, left his palace and went out into the world, and was transformed by the suffering that he saw into the Compassionate Buddha.

When I was eight, I saw images of the concentration camps my father and his fellows helped to liberate. It marked me, but it made me aware that life in America, with three squares and no one torturing us, was a precious jewel. Would I have been better off not to have known? I think not. Even small children have a sense of integrity, when it is allowed to come to the fore.

Our troops are already in grave danger over what we have done. Making some acknowlegement of our crimes would be a starting point to hopefully achieve some kind of understanding. Some extremists in the Muslim world are so damaged that nothing we can do will heal them. But we need to stand for truth, Nance. And those photographs are a major part of Truth with a capital T.

There are stories from both the First and Second World Wars where troops from both sides of the conflict exchanged gifts, food, alcohol, during a brief pause in proceedings (you'll get that reference, I'm sure). We could pull the energy out of some of the hatred in the Middle East by owning up to our own culpability, and trying -- trying, at least -- to make amends and start down a new path. Love, or some bastardization thereof, in the form of a ceasefire, an acknowledgement that we are all human, and some practical offerings in the form of food, shelter, clothing, medical supplies, might have an impact. I witnessed just this kind of thing in Germany, post WWII, when people were too concerned about survival to continue harboring hatred for the other side. Am I an idealistic fool? Maybe, but I will die that way.

It is said that Roosevelt was shown photographs of the concentration camps in WWII, and could not or would not believe it. More to the point, he felt that to expose those photos would be damaging; some would not believe, some would believe. But then, what? And he had a war to win.

Number crunching, poll watching, political calculation: The story of Solomon does not seem to involve those things. He chose a way to flush out the truth. We, and Obama, et al, need to do the same. We, of necessity, choose a leader, because none of We the People have the resources or ??wisdom?? to lead this country, or the world. But when we see that a leader has feet of clay, or is not free to do the things he would do if he could, our role is to stand for transparency. Must we see each horrible photo or frightening intelligence report. No! We can't. But we are all possesssed of a certain something called intuition, and mine tells me that Obama is not the free agent we wish him to be.

There's nothing riding on this but the Constitutiion, the Bill of Rights, and the future of our democratic republic, "said someone wiser than I," lo, these almost 40 years ago.

"When will we ever learn? When *will* we ever learn?"

We must not understand Obama, et al. to death. We must demand of them what we have a right and a duty to demand. Always riding the fence means you're always riding the fence. Joseph Campbell told us to follow our bliss. He didn't say that we should wait for our bliss to grab us by the throat and drag us onto our own path of righteousness.

In solidarity,

Judy Barrett
Santa Fe, New Mexico
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blogslut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-15-09 11:18 PM
Response to Original message
57. Too late to rec it
But not too late to kick it.
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MarqGoldberg Donating Member (1 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-16-09 08:51 PM
Response to Original message
59. Has anyone considered
Edited on Sat May-16-09 09:01 PM by MarqGoldberg
the very likely possibility that the reason Obama has changed his official position on this is because the backlash of political opinion is too damaging to him personally? Maybe he really thinks the photos should be released but he doesn't want to sign off on it. In fact maybe his strategy is to oppose the release of the photos with the hopes that his decision will be overturned in the courts. That would relieve him of the liability while still achieving the result he wanted in the first place. So to make a choice one way or the other based on Obama's position on the subject makes no sense.

We must judge it on its own merits.

Germany managed to get over their photos being released. The only reason to think that the US would be in a worse position by releasing them is if they are released and the guilty are not punished.

I say release the photos and punish the guilty.

Some even say that Obama would court retribution by investigating the Bush crime family. That the right would go after him tooth and nail to get revenge. One has to wonder if those who say that slept though the years of 1992 - 2000. Those lunatics don't need a reason.

But above all we must remember that not going after the guilty leaves all of their actions as PRECEDENTS in our legal system. The next criminal regime will use them as a starting point claiming they must have been legal actions because no action was ever taken about them.
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lunatica Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-16-09 09:02 PM
Response to Original message
60. It's called sitting on the horns of a dilemma
Edited on Sat May-16-09 09:07 PM by lunatica
And it's actually normal to feel conflicted. I sure do. But there are things we can pretty much know for sure. Not punishing the perps is in essence an invitation to continue using criminal behavior anytime they want. And they will. Every chance they get.

If they can provide the photos to investigators and to prosecutors and it means they are held accountable for their crimes then I will be satisfied, because to let these criminals loose is an invitation to help themselves to anything they want and breaking any law that stands in their way. So yeah, there are consequences which need to be thought about.
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FrenchieCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-16-09 11:13 PM
Response to Original message
61. That's what I'm talking about.......rationality and civility!
:thumbsup: :)
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HOLOS Donating Member (390 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-28-09 03:58 PM
Response to Original message
62. K&R
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