For all of you who think it was ok to torture the "bad guys" because they gave useful information...

[jenmito]

Waterboarding did NOT work on KSM and Abu Zubaida:

"As for K.S.M. himself, who (as Jane Mayer writes) was waterboarded, reportedly hung for hours on end from his wrists, beaten, and subjected to other agonies for weeks, Bush said he provided “many details of other plots to kill innocent Americans.” K.S.M. was certainly knowledgeable. It would be surprising if he gave up nothing of value. But according to a former senior C.I.A. official, who read all the interrogation reports on K.S.M., “90 percent of it was total fucking bullshit.” A former Pentagon analyst adds: “K.S.M. produced no actionable intelligence. He was trying to tell us how stupid we were.”

http://www.vanityfair.com/magazine/2008/12/torture200812

More:

"In the end, though, not a single significant plot was foiled as a result of Abu Zubaida's tortured confessions, according to former senior government officials who closely followed the interrogations. Nearly all of the leads attained through the harsh measures quickly evaporated, while most of the useful information from Abu Zubaida -- chiefly names of al-Qaeda members and associates -- was obtained before waterboarding was introduced, they said."

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/03/28/AR2009032802066.html?hpid=topnews


I'm so sick of seeing people claim KSM was the mastermind of 9/11, he beheaded Daniel Pearl, and planned everything from the non-realistic "plot" to attack the Library Tower to the unsuccessful attack on the WTC in '93. Those were all phony "confessions" made to get the torture to stop. The only thing torture gets us is more enemies as we lose the moral high ground.

[TexasObserver]

1. Correct. It did not work. It's a LIE that they got good info from torturing.

[jenmito]

2. What bothers me most is I've seen a few people HERE who believe it worked. n/t

[TexasObserver]

3. Yes, that's from watching too much "24" and not enough news.

[NYC_SKP]

4. One reply I read said that "torture works", but it was a stupid way to address the question.

Something about getting the pin number to someone's debit card.

The question isn't whether torture might work, it's about whether it's more effective than other techniques, and it's not.

I don't know what's wrong with people, really I don't.

The MSM talking heads I understand, defend BushCo at any cost.

But people here, I don't get it.

[cali]

5. I have NEVER seen a single person on DU defending torture.

So who the hell are you even talking to with that thread title? And furthermore, that's the wrong argument. Fuck letting the repukes frame the argument. Torture is wrong and it's illegal. They want to use fucking torture, tell them they have to get the U.S. to withdraw from international treaties, amend the Constitution and pass laws to legalize it.

[jenmito]

6. I have. There was a whole thread started about it...

and there were people saying they don't CARE that KSM was tortured, that 168 times wasn't ENOUGH, that he DID behead Daniel Pearl and WAS the mastermind of 9/11, etc.

[w4rma]

7. The minority of folks supporting torture on that thread were shot down, fast. (nt)

[jenmito]

8. Yes, but they still believed what they said, I'm sure. My point is there ARE

DUers that believe the RW meme that "torture worked."

[CJCRANE]

9. What's that saying that ends "...and then they came for me"...?

Torture apologists are OK with torture as long as it's the other guy.

If the CIA made an announcement that now torture would be used against suspected RW terrorists
(or insert group name here that the person belongs too) then they would soon change their tune.

[jenmito]

10. Yup...

but it's NOT them so they excuse it, make light of it, and LIE about it.

[TheKentuckian]

11. There are more poor, minority, homosexual Republicans

than there are folks on DU that think torture works and less that say it is acceptable, in any event.

The debate in a general sense is on how the situation should be handled. There's little effect to focusing on extreme outliers. For all effect and intent no one supports torture and not many more think it even works.

Of course it works on occasion but you may as well point to the effectiveness of asking "pretty, pretty please with whipped cream and cherries on top".
A broken clock works twice a day. Any method may possibly yield effective information but it is approaching insane to build policy around throwing stuff at the wall and seeing what sticks.

[jenmito]

13. "For all effect and intent no one supports torture and not many more think it even works."

You should do a search since I can't call posters out but there ARE a few posters here who DO support torture and think it works.

[pat_k]

12. Yeah. "Works" great. Demonstrates that the USA is monsterous. . .

. . . and transforms "enemy" propaganda into reality.

And, as far as the fascist fantasy that they must torture because there could be a "ticking bomb" out there somewhere. If some Jack Bauer actually believes he must commit a crime and torture to save lives, then you'd think they'd be happy to spend the rest of their life in jail, believing themselves to be some sort of hero, in the event that a jury doesn't see it "their way."

[jenmito]

14. Exactly. n/t