Obama - "We are not a Christian Nation"

[Hellataz]

Obama made this comment in Turkey this morning also going on to say we aren't a nation of other religions either.

I bet that one line fuels the venom of the right wing for weeks to come.

But I liked it... GOBama!

[Skidmore]

1. And he's absolutely right about that.

[GreenPartyVoter]

102. Yep. Big difference between having a predominantly (though shrinking) Christian populace

and being a theocracy, which is what "a Christian nation" would be.

[midnight]

2. Well, we don't act like it anyways.

Killing is not a Christian value, or making people live in poverty so the rich can be richer.

[genna]

75. among the thou shalt not rules...NO murder is not allowing.

Genesis contradicts the thou shalt not KILL. There are still reasons and excuses the Genesis patriarchs used or were given.

Making people poor, impoverished, or starved is not a Christian value. Based on the OT history, I'd say those things are the opposite of what Christians should do and be.

[Butch350]

80. Isn't that like socialism?

[elleng]

3. Where did you hear it?

Who's covering him?

Oh Yea, they'll holler! As I've noted, they'll REALLY holler hearing the TRUTH spoken our President!

[Hellataz]

6. I saw it on CNN, they were covering his joint press conference with the leader of Turkey

[bos1]

125. But you got the quote wrong, it's not so inflammatory

with more context: "I've said before that one of the great strengths of the United States is, although as I mentioned we have a very large Christian population, we do not consider ourselves a Christian nation or a Jewish nation or a Muslim nation. We consider ourselves a nation of citizens who are bound by ideals and a set of values."

http://rawstory.com/news/2008/Obama_to_Turkey_We_are_no...

[JenniferJuniper]

4. Oh, my

I just about choked on my Frosted Freeper Flakes.

Once Glenn or Rush tells them about, they ain't gonna be too happy. Should be fun.

[madaboutharry]

5. I have always been infuriated at people

who make the statement "We are a Christian nation". It pisses me off to no end. Good for Obama. The smartest guy in the room.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

39. It's not a phrase you hear in a sweat lodge, that's for sure

You hear horror stories about forced conversions, though.

[Vinca]

7. Glenn Beck just broke into tears . . . again.

:rofl:

[Hellataz]

9. LOL, make sure to catch every last one, his tears fuel our Hope-mobile.

[progressoid]

27. He's going to have to be institutionalized soon.

[paparush]

56. Gods..that asshat. His schlock is the Worst...far worse than Jim and Tammy Faye Baker.

[Sultana]

104. For realz?

}(

[Birthmark]

8. We're a nation of largely fake Christians.

[Perky]

60. And how would you define Real Christians?

I am not picking a fight. Just curious what you percieve as authenitic.

[WinkyDink]

64. Greed and war-mongering don't mesh well with Christian tenets.

[Birthmark]

100. That's exactly what I had in mind...

...and more concise than I would have managed. Thanks.

[mkultra]

77. ill take this too

If you don't mind. Real Christians MAY be people who put people first and turn the other cheek. Don't pray on the street corners and give with the right hand without the left hand knowing.


American Christianity seems pretty distant from the teachings of christ.

[genna]

93. American Christianity?

It is a pretty diverse field as far as I've seen. The caricature does not put into context what is out there.

Small churches don't necessarily function like these mega television churches. The congregations are different depending on the community they are in. Some churches in rural America can't fathom some of these public health ministries in inner city churches.

I've never been to the the Pacific Northwest or the mountainous Southwest but I bet they worship a little differently than anything I've seen in Southern churches.

Lutherans look nothing like Evangelicals in the praise and worship portion of service. Each church has taken the message of daily practice differently.


I'd argue the teachings of Christ are practiced very differently by believers the world over. American Christians are as different from each other as Christians are from across different countries.

Your point is taken as an indictment as the whole body. I just don't think it applies equally. If you made the same comment about black Christians or Eastern Orthodox Christians, I think you'd understand why it can't and it doesn't apply equally.

[mkultra]

99. perhaps. but despite your excellent points

It still remains true that American Christians remain firmly conservative in political persuasion as a whole with only a tiny minority being otherwise. The are fiercely patriotic and not shy about going to war.

[Perky]

105. I think that is a gross over simplification

the AMerican CHurhce is not simply white southern and evangelical. Stereotypically perhaps... largest megaphone, certainly,

But I remind you that MLK was White Southern and evangelical and so is Jimmy Carter,

There's a church in Boise, Idaho that is very evangelical and very charismatic who is leading the Green effort dor the entire city...because Boise lacked a Recycling program.

[mkultra]

120. well, sounds like we both recognize that exceptions exist

I just don't believe that are a significantly large group compared to those of the "gross over-simplification" Essentially, modern evangelicalism is a product of mixing capitalism and christianity.

[genna]

78. Those seeking the face of God who believe that there was person named Christ

who was fully man and fully God.

I don't really believe there are fake Christians. I think there are people who believe in order to believe in God they have to remove every trace of anyone else's faith. They are Christians who are not fully mature in their faith.

I think RW Christians fall short in understanding that no one can force God on any man, woman, or child. The belief stands for itself. People have free will and do what they feel like they must. I still believe they are Christians even when they do something which does not fit into the system of faith.


No matter how wicked I think Bush's actions were with the power he took, I don't doubt his faith in God. I just think he does not fully embrace that God is accessible to everyone even the people he did/does not like.

[DevonRex]

82. A real Christian lives the "blessed ares" and doesn't just cover his/her ass

by being "born again" just so he/she won't burn in hell.

[Fire1]

114. Those are 'Beatitudes,' to which you are referring.

[tclambert]

128. According to Republicans, real Christians:

Support the death penalty, and are OK with war and with people bombing abortion clinics because Republican Christians are pro-life. They despise the poor and believe wealth, even wealth you are born into and did nothing to earn, is proof of moral superiority. They hate homosexuals, Hollywood, Democrats and other forms of liberals, Muslims, Atheists, immigrants (legal and illegal), and the French, because, you know, Jesus was all about hating the right people. They love oil men, Wall Street Bankers, the stupid dittoheads, the military-industrial complex, and having kinky forms of sex (if you keep it secret). And they absolutely, positively hate giving money to other people because it feels like paying taxes. That part where Jesus says, "Render unto Caesar . . ." doesn't apply any more because there are no more Caesars!

They love the name Jesus, but despise everything He stood for.

[Hello_Kitty]

95. Who are you to call someone a 'fake' Christian?

Anyone who says they are a Christian is a Christian. Fred Phelps is a Christian. He just happens to cherrypick different parts of the scripture than those you deem to be 'real' Christians, but he's a Christian nonetheless.

[jonnyblitz]

127. the so called "liberal" christians here do the same as the fundies

in thinking they can proclaim who is a REAL christian and who isn't.

[lamp_shade]

10. Yannow.... sometimes I think Obama likes to stir up a little shit just to see

what kind of reaction he gets from the likes of Limbaugh, Hannity, Beck, etc.... KNOWING that their stupid screaming fits will only further hurt the republican party.

[Thrill]

20. Thats pretty much what Dowd's article yesterday was saying

[lamp_shade]

24. Thanks. I missed it. I'll go read it now.

[Clio the Leo]

31. Nah, he's precisely NOT a shit-stirrer....

.... but he also knows that the firnge right is gonna throw a hissy fit over whatever he does anyway.

It's all of the REST of us he's concerned about. He knows his audience and that remark was not directed at any American. He came into office knowing he had a lot of work to do with regard to diplomacy in the Middle Eastern world.

And he's doing it.

[ms liberty]

72. He's the Three-Dimensional Vulcan Chessmaster...somehow I think they're gonna get pnw3d. Again. n/t

[NoSheep]

119. Ooooh, well said.

[hobbit709]

11. Article XI of the 1797 Treaty Of Tripoli

As read to the Senate by John Adams and unanimously approved.

As the Government of the United States is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the law, religion or tranquility of Musselmen; and as the states never have entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mohometan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinion shall ever produce an interruption of harmony existing between the two countries.

[14thColony]

44. I love the worldview many of the Founders held back then

It was 'religious opinion' to them, not unassailable and God-given religious dogma like we appear to have now.

[IsItJustMe]

55. They were wise. It seems ironic that we have actually grown down as a country, in many ways, since

then.

[kristopher]

12. I hope the wingers do jump on him

It was an almost verbatim quote from John Adams in 1787 "The United States is not a Christian nation any more than it is a Jewish or a Mohammedan nation.
John Adams 1797

http://www.wikiislam.com/wiki/Mohammedan_quotes

[izquierdista]

16. It's pretty sad

When there is a sizable contingent of the population that is to the right of John Adams.

[NorthCarolina]

116. Oh joy, now Fox will have to attack not only Obama, but Adams as well....

[AnOhioan]

13. It is good to have an intelligent, sane President

[liberal N proud]

14. That will send the fundies into a fury

[floridablue]

15. Mornin Joe must have been asleep at the switch

They ran the press conference live, and no one picked up on it.

[NatBurner]

69. he has to wait for someone else to give him his opinion

he'll probably piss & moan about it tomorrow after the peanut gallery sounds off

[Bluenorthwest]

17. wow, then can we expect to see him cease

the promotion of religious based discrimination against gay people? Can we expect to stop hearing about his Christianity in the context of secular goverenment?
The President uses Christianity as the reason he opposes equality for all minorities. That is what he says. He says "God is in the mix" and his choice of DNC Chairmen, Kaine, opposes all forms of GLBT rights, including civil unions. Also because, according to Kaine, his Christianity demands he promote such prejudice in the form of secular law and political action.
So if we 'are not a Christian Nation' can we stop the Christianist bigotry against some of us? The hypocrisy of the whole thing is amazing to me.

[polichick]

19. And can we expect to see less of Rick Warren and other evangelical pals?

[empyreanisles]

22. I think what you need to look at is if these people are balanced out ...

with leaders/representatives of other faiths. I think Obama is including all faiths, but you're just singling out the controversial Christians.

[polichick]

23. How do you explain the points made by the poster I was responding to?

[empyreanisles]

25. Those persons, regardless of past behaviour, will NOT be allowed to discriminate going forward.

Something about Obama we should begin to realize.

He is able to forgive past transgressions if you have SKILLS and knowledge that could be used to benefit the whole, RIGHT NOW.

He is a cold, rational thinker when figuring out how to implement his policies. But the emotion comes in on the BROAD, BIG themes.

[polichick]

28. So will Obama and Kaine support gay marriage now?

[empyreanisles]

33. He does not support any federal definition of "marriage".

So it doesn't matter if he supports gay marriage or not, only that he does not intrude on the rights of states to make up their own minds.

[Bluenorthwest]

35. The entire problem as it stands

is the federal law. The feds define marriage. Please post a qute from the President where he says what you claim he says. I have never heard him say that he wants to change the law so that the Fed Gov is not involved in marriage. Show your work.

[empyreanisles]

37. He is opposed to a constitutional amendment that defines marraige. It's that simple.

[Bluenorthwest]

43. No it is not.

There is no such amendment now, and yet my family does not have equal rights. If we married in MA for example, the federal government would still require tax filings as single people, and they would still refuse to pass federal benefits on to our spouses. That is the federal government.
It is the Federal Government that is the whole of the problem. They do not honor the legal decisions of the States. There is something called 'the Defense of Marriage Act' that is the Federal law of the land, and reversing that will be a step, but that has not even been talked about since he won.

[empyreanisles]

47. Wouldn't your marraige be recognized federally as a civil union?

...and then all those legal & tax issues you raised would be solved? I don't know the answer to this, I am asking you.

[Bluenorthwest]

49. Nope.

There is no such thing as a federal 'civil union' and all federal law about couples applies only to 'marriage' and that is that. The Feds do not recognize the State made civil unions, nor even the state marriages where legal, because Fed Law is DOMA and other crap.
The Feds are the problem. Federal law is the problem. The entire problem.

[mkultra]

87. DOMA doesnt define marriage

The states define marriage. What federal laws aside from taxes are effected?

[mkultra]

86. despite FDOM, states still define marriage

When this law was signed by Clinton, the fear among conservatives was that some states would authorize it and that their states would be forced to recognize it. This law does not define marriage, it only states that states cannot be forced to recognize gay marriage and that other states don't have to recognize. Unfortunately for proponents of this law, simple legislation does not override the constitution. Thus, when states take on marriage, other states will chose to recognize or not. If not, the decision can be challenged in the supreme court on the basis of the full faith and credit clause.

Essentially, this problem is solvable from the bottom up much better than from the top down. You should know by now that a Constitutional amendment protection gay marriage is not possible in this climate.

This law has never been challenged based on constitutionality and when it does, it will fall. To do that though, requires a challenger.

[mkultra]

81. here ya go

"As your President, I will use the bully pulpit to urge states to treat same-sex couples with full equality in their family and adoption laws. I personally believe that civil unions represent the best way to secure that equal treatment. But I also believe that the federal government should not stand in the way of states that want to decide on their own how best to pursue equality for gay and lesbian couples - whether that means a domestic partnership, a civil union, or a civil marriage."

[Bluenorthwest]

29. Ummm, except that the 'office of faith based programs'

Is helping Christian organizations discriminate against GLBT people, using tax money to do so. They are being paid to discriminate going forward. I'm very sorry, but your point is simply not true, it is just wishful thinking. I wish you were right, but that is not the case.
This issue is serious. It is about my family, people, human beings that I love. To respond to fact with a pile of emotional assumptions is frankly rude. You speak about the President's inner life as if you have any way to know those things, which you do not. Simply waving your rhetorical wand does not make your proclaimations true. Where are your facts?

[Bluenorthwest]

34. I think what you need to do is offer facts, not conjecture

Feel free to name the rabbis and imams, the swamis and preistesses, that have been included in any of Obama's campaign or Presidential events. You say 'I think' a lot, but you don't back your assumptions up with anything. You accuse, but you do not bother to back your accustations with facts.

[empyreanisles]

41. I don't have names, just a good feeling about Obama's intentions. (eom)

[Bluenorthwest]

45. Exactly, my friend, you have feelings, not facts

and yet you felt free to tell the other poster that she was "just singling out the controversial Christians." You accused that poster of an action that you can not disprove.

[empyreanisles]

48. Only because I think it is fair to assume that Obama doesn't have it out for GLBT people.

And that he has proven that eventually there turns out to be a method to his madness.

[Bluenorthwest]

53. The evidence is inconclusive

The fact is that Obama used to clearly support equality for all minorities, and specifically full marriage rights for GLBT people. He says he changed his mind, and no longer supports equality for all, because of his Christian religion, althought his former home church, Trinity UCC Chicago, teaches inclusivity and acceptance of all peoples.
And that was the entire point of my response to the OP. If we are not a Christian nation, can we please stop oppressing millions to honor some Christainist dogma? If we are secular and welcoming of all, can we not simply treat all equally, as we constantly pretend that we do?
Not saying the man has it 'in for GLBT' people. Just saying he works both sides of the Christian street, and consistancy would point toward honesty rather than a 'situational faith' of the moment.

[empyreanisles]

54. I think in his heart, he is fully supportive. But he is tentative for political reasons.

And lets be honest. GLBT issues expend major political capital. This country just isn't there yet. Sex is a very deep and divisive issue.

I KNOW, "gay" is not just about sex. But that is how many, many, Americans see it.

[Bluenorthwest]

61. That is rude yet again

Americans see inter racial marriages as a bad thing, in huge numbers. When VA vs Loving was decided, the VAST majority of Americans opposed inter racial marriage, and most of them spouted Bible verses to support that view. Guess we should have respected their prejudices, and kept the Obama Sr marriage (a momentary thing t say the least) illegal? To please the racist majority?

I have to say, when I see right and wrong vanish is a cloud of political 'capital', then I know I am dealing with situational ethicists. The Christ said that how we treat those least protected by society is how we treat Him. He said noting about political capital, he just said that if you treat others badly, you have done that to Him and you should expect Him to return the favor in time.
My partner and I have been together longer than Barack and Michelle, although I am Barack's age almost exactly. Just fyi.

[HopeOverFear]

113. I dont know who you're talking to

but I agree with your points.

[QC]

65. In other words, all you have to offer is wishful thinking.

That's just not good enough when we're talking about people's fundamental rights.

[WCGreen]

58. I think he is more of an entrepreneurial preacher...

[WCGreen]

59. If anything, we are a Diest Nation,,,

[polichick]

70. "Entreprenuerial preacher" - maybe that's why he creeps me out so much...

Funny that after posting here this morning I went to a diner for breakfast, where I read a novel while eating. Another customer got out of her seat and walked across the restaurant to tell me that I should be reading the Bible. Who but a Christian would so rudely try to shove their religion down one's throat? I sure hope that the President means to back his rhetoric with policies that stop reflecting "Christian" values.

[dgibby]

76. I would have said

Oh, yes, the bible. I especially like the passage about " Judge not, lest ye be judged".

Although I am no longer a member of the "club", I did grow up in the church, and I love to shove the Bible down these "pseudo-Christians'
throats. I find it to be quite a useful weapon against their "holier than Thou" attitudes. It's definitely a conversation stopper!:evilgrin:

[polichick]

83. Lol - good comeback! I just smiled and said, "No thank you," as if she were...

...suggesting milk for my coffee.

[Jackeens]

84. I'd just have said, "thanks for the recommendation.....

...but I'm not really in to historical fiction."

[polichick]

90. That would work - I'm really not into historical fiction! :)

[genna]

94. Obama said God was the reason gays should not marry?

When and where did he say that?


I'm not necessarily a fan of VA Governor Kaine. When did he say he was against every civil right for gay people.



I thought I was paying close attention in the last 2 years. I didn't hear him say it.

[Hellataz]

18. His exact quote

"Although as I've mentioned that we have a very larger christian population. We do not consider ourselves a Christian nation, or a jewish nation or a Muslim nations. We consider ourselves a nation of citizens who are bound by a set of ideals and values."

And this isn't the first time he's said it, I found this site where they were freaking out over him saying it before:

http://www.factcheck.org/askfactcheck/did_obama_say_we_are_no_longer.html

[Hawaii Hiker]

30. I totally agree

"Although as I've mentioned that we have a very larger christian population. We do not consider ourselves a Christian nation, or a jewish nation or a Muslim nations. We consider ourselves a nation of citizens who are bound by a set of ideals and values."

We do NOT consider ourselves a Christian nation :woohoo: :woohoo:

[Igel]

115. We don't.

Many do.

Obviously those many aren't part of us, but are part of the US.

We're not a Xian nation in precisely the same way that Turkey is not a Muslim nation. The former would get him cheers, here and in Turkey; the latter, not so much.

We are (still) a Xian nation in precisely the same way that Turkey is a Muslim nation. The former would get him jeers, here (if not so much in Turkey), the latter gets acknowledgement.

[thereismore]

97. Yes, a set of ideals and values that came directly from God.

:hide:

[jefferson_dem]

21. He's so right - in theory and in reality. And it's not the first time he's set the record straight.

"I think that the right might worry a bit more about the dangers of sectarianism. Whatever we once were, we're no longer just a Christian nation; we are also a Jewish nation, a Muslim nation, a Buddhist nation, a Hindu nation, and a nation of nonbelievers. We should acknowledge this and realize that when we're formulating policies from the state house to the Senate floor to the White House, we've got to work to translate our reasoning into values that are accessible to every one of our citizens, not just members of our own faith community."

http://www.cbn.com/CBNnews/204016.aspx

[a la izquierda]

26. Nice, I missed that.

Anyone who thinks so really needs to learn history...Jamestown was founded by a bunch of money and land-grubbing men for whom religion was a distant second. So our real religion is the almighty dollar (or sixpence, as it were).

[BeyondGeography]

32. As if any religion stands up to materialism as a point of commonality in America

Makes me laugh how seriously the fundies take themselves.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

36. I like it too

and my Native American friends who, up until the 70s were PERSECUTED for practicing their religions, are happy too.

[Clio the Leo]

38. And my Church of Christ father stood up in the pulpit yesterday...

... and said the exact same thing. Those folks in the Democrat party will say anything! lol

If you'll allow me a moment, the Bible is pretty clear that children of God will only STAY the children of God as long as they do what he commands. That's what my father was saying, that's what Rev. Right was saying. "Therefore bear fruits in keeping with repentance, and do not begin to say to yourselves, 'We have Abraham for our father,' for I say to you that from these stones God is able to raise up children to Abraham. (Luke 3:8)

Now, that's not EXACTLY what the President was saying, but he and I and you know and all of us know that there's nothing about this nation that makes it inherently Christan. And that we have spent most of our time acting a lot LESS Christ-like than we like to claim.

[saltpoint]

40. If the tenets of the ministry of Jesus were considered next to

U.S. foreign policy, for example, the case that we are a Christian nation falls to pieces very quickly.

U.S. domestic policy hasn't been all that great either. 'To whom would Jesus hand out smallpox-infested blankets?'

We have a lot to learn from other cultures. That last guy didn't seem very teachable. This new guy does.

[intaglio]

42. Not the first time "Librul" politicians have said this

From the Treaty of Tripoli
Art. 11. As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquility, of Mussulmen; and, as the said States never entered into any war, or act of hostility against any Mahometan nation, it is declared by the parties, that no pretext arising from religious opinions, shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.

This treaty passed unanimously by the house (only the 3rd time it had happened) and signed into law by the President John Adams

and from the original Gee Dubya - George Washington

The United States is in no way founded upon the Christian religion
-- George Washington & John Adams, in a diplomatic message to Malta.

[Chef Eric]

46. A big, secular AMEN to that, Mr. President! (nt)

[bdamomma]

50. we are not a Christian Nation, exactly right, watch all the

fundis go crazy with that honest comment.

[harun]

51. "The United States is not and never will be at war with Islam", very nice.

[Hellataz]

52. Sure shuts those GOP members up that keep implying that Obama doesn't care about islam

[smoogatz]

57. Number of times God or Jesus mentioned in the Constitution: 0

Religion mentioned exactly once, in the 1st amendment, which forbids the establishment of a state religion. Yep, I'd say that makes us not a Christian nation.

[mkultra]

88. God is mentioned in teh decleration.

Not that i disagree with your overall point.

[smoogatz]

92. The Constitution is our founding document.

Not the Declaration of Independence. If the framers had wanted to establish a Christian state, they had ample opportunity to do so. Instead, they expressly forbade the creation of a state religion. Their intentions couldn't be more clear, IMO.

[mkultra]

98. preacher ....choir

no pun intended. :)

[smoogatz]

108. Cool.

:toast:

[immoderate]

117. Not exactly.

The phrase is "endowed by their creator.." and I, for instance, was created by my parents. And then there is that bit about "nature's god," whatever that is.

--imm

[rateyes]

110. Well, they do date the document "in the year of our Lord,"

but, that's how secular society did it. The founders expressly left God out of the document.

[ClarkUSA]

62. Another freeper head-exploding line from his speech: "We are not at war with Islam."

[ClarkUSA]

63. Here's a line guaranteed to make Bill Kristol spew green vomit: "Iran is a great civilization."

[WinkyDink]

66. Would Kristol be unaware of Persia?

Frankly, IMO, much of the "wars" in the ME has been about looting the artifacts of those ancient civilizations.

[ClarkUSA]

68. He's a PNAC neocon who'd only be too happy to obliterate Iran rather than exercise diplomacy.

[pnorman]

67. President O'Bama was essenrially quoting John Adams!

"Art. 11. As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquillity, of Mussulmen; and, as the said States never entered into any war, or act of hostility against any Mahometan nation, it is declared by the parties, that no pretext arising from religious opinions, shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries."

"As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion"!!

http://www.stephenjaygould.org/ctrl/treaty_tripoli.html

pnorman

[Igel]

118. You do understand why that was said, right?

"The said States never entered into any war, or act of hostility against any Mahometan nation"? They're splitting split ends here (all the more since I don't think the Arabic fair copy includes these words in an intelligible form). The hair that was split was the Sultan's denial of responsibility for the pirates, and absolving the US of having shelled Tripoli.

That needed to be done. It was a blatant lie. I mean, it's the treaty ending the Barbary Wars, which was a war. Congress actually did declare war to make it all official and Constitutional. We shelled Tripoli, which certainly is usually taken to indicate hostility.

The Barbary pirates, with the full backing of the Sultan, had been active for a while. The US paid protection money to the racket, as demanded by the Sultan. US citizens were taken as slaves or pressed into service. US ships were seized and taken. The talk was of jihad, as it was against Europe; they were Muslims fighting infidels--on that basis the Americans were taken as slaves and their property seized as war booty. We didn't declare it a religious war, although numerous pundits did.

"Said States never entered into any war, or act of hostility against any Mahometan nation". Let's see ... official declaration of war; numerous acts of hostility; against a nation, which was avowedly Muslim, seizing US ships in the name of Allah.

If we had been at war, we'd need to continue to be at war. There was no provision for defeat--it was unthinkable, a violation of honor. If it was a religious skirmish, then continued war would have been obligatory, since then it would have been an offense against Islam. By making the skirmish a pimple on a rat's ass, fully non-religious, and not a war at all, moreover an issue where the Sultan and his territory wasn't *really* involved, peace would be said to never have been violated and face could be saved. The sums demanded in previous years by the Sultan (and paid by Congress) could be overlooked, officially; the ships seized and the men pressed into service and the Americans taken as slaves or prisoners could be ignored. It was different with Europe: The warfare against European ships continued for a while because they were explicitly religious in nature (if no more in practice). It was also of long-standing. Moreover, it was also very lucrative and met with much less resistance.

Now, on independent grounds you can argue that the first clause holds, as well as the second; their truth value is independent of the utter falseness of the third clause, and the vapidity of the last clause (since we were back fighting in what--a decade?)

Still, it's a mystery where this paragraph came from, or why the Arabic is so badly mangled. Perhaps because the Sultan was happy enough knowing that we accepted the lies that his own people were too embarrassed to take at face value? Perhaps because the translator, instead of perezagruzhennyi ("restarted") that morning was peregruzhennyi ("overburdened")? Dunno.

[pnorman]

121. "understand why that was said?"

That it was apparently said, should be all that matters. This isn't campaign rhetoric that should always be taken with a grain of salt, it's a TREATY! The only part of your reply that interests me, is that "the Arabic is so badly mangled" allegation. Is there an "unmangled" version available?

pnorman

[Harry Monroe]

71. Oh shit!! Here it comes. The RW media will be on this one for weeks now!

[gauguin57]

73. Let's tune in the right-wing radio (or faux news) ...

... and settle in with some

[Political Heretic]

74. Obama makes the baby Glenn-beck cry

[jenmito]

79. When he said that I was so happy but also KNEW it was an instant soundbite for RWers to attack

him. I've heard them say MANY times that we ARE a Christian nation (which leaves all the rest of us...where?)

[ClarkUSA]

85. He's not afraid to confront false RW memes in order to achieve transformational CHANGE in attitude.

He threw a lot of grenades for Rush Limbaugh to catch today. I can't wait until the wingnuts take the bait. :)

[jenmito]

89. I know and I LOVE that he does it!

I await their reactions, too. :D

[FourScore]

91. What a BRAVE thing to say. Thank you, Obama!!

And thank you, Hellataz, for posting this.

K&R

[goclark]

107. Obama is a Constutional Scholar and also has a chess player

mind.

[NC_Nurse]

96. I am amazed that he said that. Impressive, courageous and true. GObama!

:yourock:

[Starry Messenger]

101. We were founded on the principles of the Enlightenment.

I hope those come back into vogue again, soon.

[GreenPartyVoter]

103. Funny, that's not how the Evangelicalsin general interpret our history.

:eyes:

I am hoping right alongside you, though, for a return to enlightenment. Wish I knew how how to get us there.

[Starry Messenger]

111. I wish I knew, too.

My hope for the future is that we stop enabling the right wing. Fingers crossed.

[Jennicut]

106. He is right and I say that AS a Christian.

Of course, the freepers will have a meltdown but they are always good for a laugh!

[rateyes]

109. He didn't say anything differently than John Adams or ALL of the

Congress & Senate when they ratified the Treaty of Tripoli:

Art. 11. As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquility, of Mussulmen; and, as the said States never entered into any war, or act of hostility against any Mahometan nation, it is declared by the parties, that no pretext arising from religious opinions, shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.


That treaty was ratified by UNANIMOUS vote of the Senate.

These people, BTW, included the FOUNDERS. They ought to know.

[DFW]

112. But but but but but.........

Fox Noise and National Hate Radio, as well as all the silk-suited televangelists on TV say that America WAS, TOO, founded upon the Christian religion. And if THEY say so, then who cares what was said by commie socialists like John Adams and George Washington? What did they ever do for America anyway huh?

[donheld]

122. Can anybody confirm that Michelle Bachmann's head is still intact?

I'd think this would have blown that noggin' :nuke:

[Rincewind]

123. I do believe

that this was first stated by President John Adams, about, oh, 212 years or so ago. But, we need to keep reminding people of this inconvenient little fact.

[bos1]

124. misquote! "we do not consider ourselves a Christian nation or a Jewish nation or a Muslim nation."

with more context: "I've said before that one of the great strengths of the United States is, although as I mentioned we have a very large Christian population, we do not consider ourselves a Christian nation or a Jewish nation or a Muslim nation. We consider ourselves a nation of citizens who are bound by ideals and a set of values."

http://rawstory.com/news/2008/Obama_to_Turkey_We_are_not_0406.html

[Name removed]

126. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[trayfoot]

129. President Obama is absolutely right! Gad he has the courage to say it!

[ejpoeta]

130. oh he's gonna get it for that!!

I totally agree, but there are plenty or people out there who keep wanting to believe that it is. didn't the pilgrims come here to escape religious persecution or something like that?? i thought the forefathers set things up as they did to allow people to worship as they wanted. they left places where the religion changed with the leader.... yet now we have a minority wanting to impose on the rest of us.

[Orsino]

131. No nation has only one religion.

And no nation has ever acted only in accordance with a single religion.

[Citizen_Penn]

132. Freedom of religion implies freedom FROM religion

I voted for, and helped elect a constitutional scholar.

Feeling fairly smug right now, folks.

that's MY president.